Training, Tech to Prevent Accidental Discharges?

[Red 6]

This safety thing in training is nice, but we're not talking rocket science here. The US Army is really big on the school house approach to problem solving. This will not fix what has always been an endemic problem, at least since I've been in the armed forces. The real solution is to enforce the standards and procedures that have been in place since the Roman Army taught its legionaries not to chop on their battle buddies with swords. Units have to have a climate of zero tolerance to safety violations and leaders need to supervise their Soldiers (I use this word because that's the primary group we're discussing, but it could just as easily be airmen, etc.)

Weapons handling accidents occur for a variety of reasons. When people are tired, leaders need to be especially aware of what's going on.

 

[Jay4th]

The ever-present rifle and blank ammo allthrough training is one of the best ideas I have ever encountered.  It is even more important in the support trades where one constantly encounters deployed soldiers so afraid of their weapons and of having an ND that they don't load them, or leave the bolt in a pocket.  A trucker I knew in Bosnia 2000  kept his firing pin in the inside velcro pocket of his shirt while driving supply convoys from VK to Zgon.  When that got up higher he was one of many.  The weapon needs to feel like an extension of the soldier's own body.

 

[KevinB]

Remember 1VP had an idiot who keep his C9A2 bolt in his barracks box... Mind you he just did not want to kill  : (nice trade choice jackass)

Some of the EME SEALS's from RotoII in Kabul where found to be going on duty w/o firing pins...

 

[George Wallace]

Too many of those true stories going around, and they don't all apply to Small Arms.

 

[KevinB]

George that is VERY frightening since it requires 2 to affect that issue.

 

[Devlin]

Remember 1VP had an idiot who keep his C9A2 bolt in his barracks box... Mind you he just did not want to kill  : (nice trade choice jackass)

Some of the EME SEALS's from RotoII in Kabul where found to be going on duty w/o firing pins...

Holy flying fork handles batman ...that is just nuts. I mean really give your head a shake. I am just about speechless.

 

[TCBF]

Back in 'the day' in Lahr, I recommended that we draw our live ammo once a week and wear it around garrison, just so the office workers would see and feel what a rifle and first line ammo is like.  I was told that it was 'risky'.  So, I said, when do we start the remedial weapons classes?

We don't, they said.

Gotta love the "No Weapons In Building" signs on CF Bases.  What are they afraid of?  Ex-husbands?

 

[a_majoor]

The problem has been around for quite a while, Col Hackworth recounts running a training battalion in Ft Lewis Washington during the Viet Nam war and having the trainees carry weapons loaded with blanks throughout their training. (This is recounted in the book "About Face").

It seems we always have to relearn old lessons.

 

[orange.paint]

Imagine the "profession of arms" handling their weapons appropriately....
not a hard job.

Remove source of ammo,clear chamber. It works for pretty well all arms.Anyone who kills another troop with a ND should be charged for murder IMHO.

 

[KevinB]

How about - Leave weapon ready - dont fuck with it...

 

[paracowboy]

exactly. Load weapon. Ready weapon. Put weapon on 'safe'. Follow 4 Rules of Firearm Safety.

 

[043]

This is what I have done here to the last Ph III Officer Course:

When ever the students cleared their wpns, they immediately recocked the wpn and put it on safe. If it was found on repetition or automatic, they recieved a little bit of a beasting. It goes against everything that is pounded into our heads, however, it did work. There no ND's during the FTX as they were used to ensuring that the weapon was on safe. As well, it took some explaining to the other staff however, it did work.

My 2 Cents

 

[KevinB]

2023 -- that is very similar to US drills -- admittedly after 17 years of CF drills I found the US drill somewhat unnerving -- However it was explained to me that it is MUCH better to potentially have a round in the chmaber by accident (read stupidity) with the weapon on SAFE -- rather than the weapon on R/SEMI or AUTO

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Back in 'the day' in Lahr, I recommended that we draw our live ammo once a week and wear it around garrison, just so the office workers would see and feel what a rifle and first line ammo is like.  I was told that it was 'risky'.  So, I said, when do we start the remedial weapons classes?

We don't, they said.

Gotta love the "No Weapons In Building" signs on CF Bases.  What are they afraid of?  Ex-husbands?

Still I found the Canadian military units in Germany a lot more "with it" than the units back home in regards to weapons. I found it took some time to remove that "peace time army" attitude from myself.

 

[TangoTwoBravo]

Perhaps the US guys get NDs in camp because their supervisors want the weapon on SAFE without a round in the chamber and a mag on.  Their drills try to work around the built-in safety features of the weapon.  I found their unload, cock, put mag on drill quite baffling.  I'm not slinging mud at my US counterparts, we have plenty of NDs on our own. 

What I find funny is that you can go out in the rhubarb for two weeks with a readied weapon without any NDs, then once you get back in camp you get NDs.  Go figure. 

 

[Red 6]

Good point 2Bravo. It's because guys get sloppy in garrison.

 

[orange.paint]

Personal weapons drills are very simple.The problem I see is that these tools are locked away in the QM and taken out only during exercises.And as for live rounds I have not had a round chambered since a range in bosnia in 2003.And I am in the cmbt arms! I can also say my past trip to NFLD I shot more bullets during my time home than I EVER have in the army.7 years punched and I have maybe went to the ranges 4 times.And no I was not squirrled away in some office job I have been in the F esh since joining.

I have also seen some CSS troops afraid of their rifle on gate guard. Constantly clearing it and messing around with it.Make troops comfortable withtheir rifle.A lot of trades are comfortable with computers in garrison which can be a lot more complicated than a few IA drills.

Train the way we fight....I remember being out on ex in meaford blanks chambered doing the fun patrolling stuff,but as soon as you came to the meal line or mess tent someone would be spouting "unload your weapons".Thankfully we had a excellent SGT who told us to leave a round up the chamber and as I said "train the way you fight." Something many snr NCO's and officers should be enforcing.

I've personally never had a ND or knew anyone in my troops who had one.

 

[Yeoman]

Remember 1VP had an idiot who keep his C9A2 bolt in his barracks box... Mind you he just did not want to kill  : (nice trade choice jackass)

Some of the EME SEALS's from RotoII in Kabul where found to be going on duty w/o firing pins...

funny, heard the same thing during roto 0 with somone attached in from 1RCR. thank god he's out now.
we actually just had a discussion on this today; and seriously. it's so simple
'cock weapon'
'pull trigger, and weapon goes boom'
how can you put it any simpiler then that?
there should be like tazers on the weapons during training, so if you have an ND, you get like 200 volts zapped into you. that'll learn you.
Greg

 

[GO!!!]

Personal weapons drills are very simple.The problem I see is that these tools are locked away in the QM and taken out only during exercises.And as for live rounds I have not had a round chambered since a range in bosnia in 2003.And I am in the cmbt arms! I can also say my past trip to NFLD I shot more bullets during my time home than I EVER have in the army.7 years punched and I have maybe went to the ranges 4 times.And no I was not squirrled away in some office job I have been in the F esh since joining.

I've personally never had a ND or knew anyone in my troops who had one.

Rarely handling your pers weapon would seem to almost guarantee that NDs will be rare.

 

[Red 6]

Let me ask ya'll a question. Do you run ranges in lock-step? In the US Army, when you go to the range, you get handed your ammo and take it to your firing point, then load on command. Everything is very controlled to reduce the chances of an ND.

In 2000, my unit deployed to Kuwait for 6 months in support of Operation Southern Watch. I had a sergeant (an experienced Soldier) who had an ND when he tried to clear his rifle in a tent full of sleeping Soldiers. He was tired and failed to follow our local clearing policy and standard Army clearing procedures. I felt bad for this guy, but when my commander asked me for a recommendation, I told him we had to make an example of him. It was a hard lesson, but it would've been horrible if one of my Soldiers got killed.