Training Review Board Recommendations

[curiouschap]

I am not giving my identity for obvious reason.

I had a training review board and recommendation is to cease training.

Some facts: 1. I am on TCAT right now. Do you think TRB should have been held in this situation. My MEL is low stress environment but my supervisor said that the doctor told I am fit to stand TRB.

2. I wanted to VOT-U but my paper work was not completed and the trade closed for Jan 13. Then of course I got the TCAT. I had to withdraw my application.

3. The TRB recommendation is to cease training saying that I have discipline issues and I cannot be successful in the trade. Of Course I haven't heard the final decision. I am surprised that if the divisional notes indicate discipline issues, I was never issued any warning, IC charges etc...

4. I haven't failed any courses until now and told the board that I will use the time of TCAT to work towards the training. They also never considered the fact that my medical issue is creating issues in getting trained.

5. Still not trade qualified, most likely the process will lead to release.

My questions: 1. I was told that if released I wont have issues joining other public services but will not be able to re-muster after 6 months. What does this mean and what type of release is this/

2. Should I wait for final decision to arrive and then put redress of grievance or I can challenge the recommendation right now

3. When so many trades are still red and my trade been very very red(sorry not comfortable giving out details) why would they still initiate release for me when I have successfully completed my training so far.

4. I was compared to other people with me in training but most of them are at the same level of OJPR package that I am at. Is this comparison fair?

5. I think my supervisor initiated this process due to personality clashes. TRB can be held any time but the intent is not good. Can I challenge this as well to be investigated/

Please advice so I can prepare for the eventual. Keeping in mind the TRB recommendation but there is not recommendation from medical side how should I approach this issue. The TRB has asked for cease training and I was told by the chairman that it will be eventually a release and the medical declares that I cannot be medically fit for current trade but medically fit for other trades, do you think that I can still salvage the situations.

Please advice

 

[Pat in Halifax]

Are you sure it wasn't an AR (Administrative Review) vice a TRB. I know it varies from environment to environment and even Unit to Unit within  environments but TRBs are not the tool for anything related to disciplinary issues usually. A TRB is sat to identify why someone is falling behind in training. In your case, it 'sounds' like it is medically related and therefore 'usually' an extension coinciding with your TCAT or a recommendation of OT are in order. If there were disciplinary issues in the past, these should have come to light in a PDR IAW CFPAS. Following that, THEN an AR would be done possibly if there was no corrective action on your part.
I don't know your Unit let alone environment but my recommendation would be to request a meeting with your TrgO ( thru CoC), express to him/her what you have said here. If EVERYTHING above is true (there are ALWAYS 2 sides to every story however), you 'might' have grounds for a Redress but you should not be at that stage yet. Be tactful-this should be resolvable before it goes too far.

Pat

 

[392]

Sounds to me like you are RCN on your QL3 (or whatever the RCN calls their initial trades training). There's a couple comments in there that lead me to believe that. Using that assumption, here are some suggestions from what I have seen being on the other side of the fence in the trg system:

I am not giving my identity for obvious reason.

I had a training review board and recommendation is to cease training.

Some facts: 1. I am on TCAT right now. Do you think TRB should have been held in this situation. My MEL is low stress environment but my supervisor said that the doctor told I am fit to stand TRB.

If you are fit enough to attend training, you are fit enough to attend the TRB. Contrary to what you might think (at least in the Army anyways), TRBs can be held without you there, and depending on the circumstances can simply be accomplished in the stroke of a pen. That being said, there are very specific circumstances for this to happen, and by the sounds of your points, your case doesn't fit any of these.

2. I wanted to VOT-U but my paper work was not completed and the trade closed for Jan 13. Then of course I got the TCAT. I had to withdraw my application.

If you are not yet initial trades trained, you can be / request "reassignment". Any VOT program closing dates would not affect your ability to do this.

3. The TRB recommendation is to cease training saying that I have discipline issues and I cannot be successful in the trade. Of Course I haven't heard the final decision. I am surprised that if the divisional notes indicate discipline issues, I was never issued any warning, IC charges etc...

If your training establishment is anything like ours, students are not generally issued ICs or charged for disciplinary issues, they are issued "chits" or levels of counselling while on courses. The reason being, is if we charged every student on initial training for infractions of CF regulations, 1) how on earth would you ever learn from your mistakes and 2) the School CoC would be swamped (even more than they already are) in DIs, summary trials and CMs. I would hazard a guess that if they are using issues you've previously had discipline-wise against you, you've received something - whether it be a "chit" or a jacking with another instructor there as a witness.

4. I haven't failed any courses until now and told the board that I will use the time of TCAT to work towards the training. They also never considered the fact that my medical issue is creating issues in getting trained.

If you have medical issues preventing you from training, that alone is grounds to have you cease trained and be declared unfit for the trade. This also depends on what those med issues are of course. TCAT time is not "time off" to make oneself better, it is a set of restrictions imposed on the CoC so you are able to continue working while you get better. If your MEL has you sitting below the minimum medical standards for the trades course you are on, generically speaking that means you cannot complete all of the tasks required by the Qualification Standard, which means you cannot be qualified at this time.

5. Still not trade qualified, most likely the process will lead to release.

Not necessarily. There are other options available to the CoC and to you which will retain you in the CF. However I suspect your medical issues will continue to impede your training progress.

My questions: 1. I was told that if released I wont have issues joining other public services but will not be able to re-muster after 6 months. What does this mean and what type of release is this/

2. Should I wait for final decision to arrive and then put redress of grievance or I can challenge the recommendation right now

Have you been served with a notice of intent to release? If not, cool your heels a bit. WRT the grievance - you cannot grieve something that hasn't happened yet - i.e. no preemptive strikes.

3. When so many trades are still red and my trade been very very red(sorry not comfortable giving out details) why would they still initiate release for me when I have successfully completed my training so far.

Again, have you been served a notice of intent to release? Regardless of trade health, if you cannot complete your training due to unsuitability for the trade, they won't keep you in the trade.

4. I was compared to other people with me in training but most of them are at the same level of OJPR package that I am at. Is this comparison fair?

Absolutely. Without you giving too many details here about your issues, this comparison could be very valuable in giving the CoC a clear picture of your suitability for this trade. Maybe even some of your peers are on TCAT as you are, and that is why they chose to bring it up.

5. I think my supervisor initiated this process due to personality clashes. TRB can be held any time but the intent is not good. Can I challenge this as well to be investigated/

Do you have proof? As someone who initiates PRBs (which I assume is the Army's term for TRB) for students who don't meet the standard all the time, I can tell you with absolute confidence that in order to even get to the PRB, I have to have mounds of documented and supported evidence showing why the student's progress should be reviewed in the first place. Personality clashes don't even factor in anywhere. Now, I have to ask - define personality clashes. Is this a case of your course staff giving you direction and you not adhering to it, resulting in a one way conversation, or is it a case of no matter how good you follow the staff's direction, you think you are being picked on. If it's the former, time to look in the mirror. If it's the latter (and I highly encourage you to ensure your ducks are all lined up before this), you should have already asked to see your Course Officer or higher to address this. If you make a false complaint, it will complicate matters even more.

Please advice so I can prepare for the eventual. Keeping in mind the TRB recommendation but there is not recommendation from medical side how should I approach this issue. The TRB has asked for cease training and I was told by the chairman that it will be eventually a release and the medical declares that I cannot be medically fit for current trade but medically fit for other trades this is most likely the main reason for the TRB in the first place - you aren't medically fit for this trade. If you are still fit for other trades, reassignment is a possibility, do you think that I can still salvage the situations.

Please advice

With the minimum amount of detail posted here, it's hard to give you any additional advice,  but I am sure others may have some things to add that I haven't. 

 

[curiouschap]

I haven't received anything as in the final decision or Notice of Intent to release.

It is not administrative review or anything, it was a training review board IAW MARCORD 9-60. The board decided that I do not show reliability, accountability, cohesion, communication skills etc....and hence recommend me to cease training in the trade. There is no reference to the point that I have successfully completed training so far without any failures. The recommendations are based on personality vice training. But again I havent even read the final recommendation draft that will be sent to the deciding authority. My question of release was based on the fact that since I am not trade qualified as yet and the deciding authority agrees to the recommendation (which they always agree to in my opinion), they can initiate a release vice reassignment. Please advice also I havent even heard back from the doctor as in if I am unfot for that trade but fit for other trades or other elements.

 

[PuckChaser]

Deficiencies in reliability, accountability and communication skills are sometimes even larger issues than just failing a test. Nobody wants to have someone working for them who is not reliable, accountable, doesn't work with the team and only got their because they passed a few tests. These are key traits that every member in the CF must have, hence why they're assessed on a PER. They're not targetting you specifically, they're picking up on your personality traits that make you unsuitable for employment in your current trade. Perhaps instead of trying to find issues with their findings, you look in a mirror and decide whether you really want to be in the RCN and what you're going to do to fix the problems identified in your TRB. As Capt Happy said, you don't just jump right to TRB, you were counseled and didn't do what you were told to do to fix it.

 

[curiouschap]

Yes of course the issues that had happened over the course of time have been corrected whenever told to me. Some issues that were referred during the TRB was I was late on 2 ocassions, the first was genuine but the second I was given remedial task vice any chit. I missed a deadline and given a second one which I missed but the reasons were explained and I was given extra duties. The other 3 incidents referred to me where also remedied but to my surprise these remedial actions are not  written anywhere in my Div notes. The incidents are mentioned but no reference to how I corrected them and moved on. These issues after been corrected are never repeated. One incident that was told to me was absolute misunderstanding and perception, which was clarified with my supervisor to agreement that they were perceptions and not intentional but still held against me. My supervisor agrees that Div notes are perception of the supervisor. I did explain the board how these were corrected but they say these keep on happening again and again. 5 incidents during last 3 years makes me unreliable, unaccountable etc.. One incident where I become situationally unaware and I was told about it. But to my surprise the Div notes say why I did something but it does not say that I did that since I was told we can do certain things certain way. To my surprise the training review board did not consider the training aspect. I am very sure that certain mistakes can be corrected to perfection. Again I havent read the final letter. But I am sure the letter will be to this effect.

Agreed RCN may not be an ideal choice does not mean that me as a person is not ideal for AF or Army. My concern is why would a board say that after cease training I will be released since I am not trade qualified. I am sure they are aware that I am going through medical investigation. Secondl my supervisor mentioned that my release will be such that I cannot join the CF again at all but I can work in any other public service jobs. What type of release is this?

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Well, considering many of us go 20 or 30 years in the CF without any incidents, yes, quite possibly 5 incidents in 3 years does make you appear unreliable.

That said, you are looking for advice from random people on the Internet, for a situation that you acknowledge is complicated.  Since we are not likely to get both sides of the story from you, it would be difficult to give you advice.

I will say though, that I have been  involved in more than a few TRBs in my career (from both sides of the table).

In my experience, boards really do try to balance off the needs of the CF and the best interests of the member in a fair manner. I have never seen anyone get railroaded.  Not to say it never happens- I just have never seen it.

FWIW.

 

[PuckChaser]

Agreed RCN may not be an ideal choice does not mean that me as a person is not ideal for AF or Army.

You'd be surprised how the Army and RCAF require the same standards of accountability and reliability as the RCN.

 

[TwoTonShackle]

A TRB will simply send a recommendation to the OIC or Commandant of the school to cease training.  If the recommendation is upheld then it is also sent to the member's unit and career manager.  From there an AR may or may not be convened based on the reasons behind the TRB and recommendations of the CoC and/or the CM.

If the TRB recommended cease training and come back in one year, then that gives you time to address your issues.  If the TRB recommended cease training, conduct an AR, not suitable for trade or military service and ensure this person never owns a cat/dog let alone procreate, well that's a different issue all together.

 

[curiouschap]

Ok I was not comfortable talking to the board and of course here about the medical side and steps that are taken to work with professionals to come to terms with certain deficiencies. Its not that I am not working towards making positive changes. My concern is while considering best interest of CF and member in fair manner, the TRB is not considering the underlying medical facts and care that is provided to me. The medical side is investigating why I landed up in this situation and how to salvage it going forward. Again dont get me wrong that I am trying to fight against something that is already in place tried and tested for years. I am giving both sides of discussion here. Unreliable and unaccountable are heavily negative terms. Thats not what I am as a person from what the community I live and volunteer thinks. I am just mentioning that it is not fair to conclude just on actions that have been seen. There should be a reason to it. All I am saying that the board is all correct to say I am not fit for a trade but the fact that I should be released is something I am not getting correctly. Of course I will mention here what the letter of recommendation says since I was told that I will get a chance to review it before sending it forward. I am just asking for steps I should consider to salvage the situation and be considered for other trades or elements etc...

 

[PuckChaser]

You realize the recommendation from the AR can just as easily be recourse when med fit, or compulsory OT right? Just because you have something going on right now, doesn't mean it won't be fixed later. However, if you're headed down the road to a 3B (medical) release, its a different story. The AR is going to take doctor's recommendations into account. The TRB only needs to ask if you're medically fit and meet the requirements to continue training. They are looking at the short term success on the course you are now. Your AR which is triggered by the TRB will decide whether you're staying, leaving, or remustering.

 

[curiouschap]

Thank you TwoTonShackle.

As I understand the process, yes the recommendation of cease training will be sent to OIC and if it is upheld, cease training. But my concerns go beyond that and I am trying to take proactive steps so that I am prepared that if the AR happens they do consider the fact that I have medical side of the story and they do consider the recommendations from the doctor. I am all OK that if the decision is here we release you right now and then once you are more mature in 6-8 months come back and we will consider from there. But my concerns are to the fact that my supervisor mentioned that I will not be able to join CF again but I can work other public services what is this type of release?

 

[PuckChaser]

That sounds like a 5D release, here's the Army.ca wiki with all the release items. http://army.ca/wiki/index.php/Articles_for_Release

 

[curiouschap]

So if the release say is under 5d that means I can never re muster even if the situations change etc.....

In my opinion 5d release will give unfair judgement since that means the person is just good for nothing and hopeless as far as CF is concerned.

I am jumping ahead here and just speculating without having seen anything or without the process being initiated. Do yu think it will be proactive to contact IPSC and secondly since TRB is just a recommendation can I still continue finishing just a little part of the OJPR package at least that will indicate that I am seriously wanting to be a part of CF. Of course I do want to be within CF so I am not trying to prove that partbut is it still an option that until the OIC delivers final decision

 

[Good2Golf]

A TRB determines suitability to continue training, simple as that.  If your TCAT and associated MEL were such that you could not medically continue training, you would have been ceased training and recoursed at a later date, once the TCAT-related MEL was lifted.

Not knowing any other details beyond what you have said here, but having been involved in several different training organizations and knowing a fair bit of the administration that occurs in a unit, I have a suspicion that you may be making a link between your training deficiencies and your medical condition that is not necessarily the case. 

As others have said here, there is not much we can recommend to you specifically.  I would, however, recommend that in general you acknowledge shortcomings noted by your trainers, don't try to make excuses, but rather note your desire to succeed and to heed the direction of your staff to succeed and progress through your chosen trade as a dedicated individual who takes responsibility for their actions and capabilities.

Good luck.
G2G

 

[curiouschap]

My intentions were made very clear before during and after TRB that I will continue training to whatever best extent I can during the TCAT. Whatever way the medical goes a decision on cease training can be made then as well. My surprise is that TRB did not make any reference to training. I have never failed any training so far and I am at par with the rest on OJPR package that I am working on. The TRB is referring to certain actions that they think are repetitive (5 different incidents) but not considering that he is under medical care for improvement.

My frustration is not I was facing TRB etc.. I am OK if the TRB recommended cease training but I am frustrated that it will be so unfair to release me in such a way that I am not even given a chance to prove whether medical care has improved my condition to prove my capabilities. Thats the advice I am seeking here of how to go ahead from here. I am definitely trying to work hard and show positive results then why am I not given that second or maybe last chance to prove?

 

[Nfld Sapper]

This sounds more like a PRB - Progress Review Board....

 

[PuckChaser]

This sounds more like a PRB - Progress Review Board....

Navy has a different term for it, but yep, same thing.

 

[TwoTonShackle]

I'm fairly confident that the military would not initiate a release based on a cease training recommendation from a TRB, even from a trade course.  As for the reliability, etc.. issues for which you may have been removed there is a process for that called Remedial Measures, (I/C, RW, C&P then release).  It has been my experience with remedial measures that there has to be an effort on the part of the CoC to counsel and correct the undesired behaviour prior to beginning an AR on an individual.  It is difficult to speculate on wether your medical issues contributed to the eventual TRB, but seeing as though the didn't initially prevent you from going on the course, then it should have any/much bearing during the TRB.  If the medical issues arose during the course, then a TRB should have been immediately convened to cease you training with a recommendation to return on the next available course once the MEL's had been lifted. 

 

[curiouschap]

Thats exactly happening here. I did developed medical issue during the course but I could not attend doctor's appointment due to sailing and then I had vacation time. When I attended the doctor's appointment in Jan 13 I was put on TCAT. Hence TRB was convened. But to my surprise the TRB is recommending cease training in the trade meaning I cannot continue in the trade I am training in. Then they made reference to those 5 incidents which they say are questioning my traits that I am not reliable etc...but these incidents although noted in Div notes there were no official remedial measures like I/C, RW etc..the remedial measures were given like cleaning mess upto CO's inspection standards etc..Thats what is confusing me here. Again I havent checked what the letter to OIC will say. I will get a chance to check but I know that they will cease training in the trade I am right now. I am sure that they have nothing to say about my training since all my courses exams and course report until now has indicated I have passed them with above average and in the first attempt. Its not regarding the training and training progress. I have strong doubt its beyond that since talks like I did not demonstrate reliability etc..Hence I am seeking more insight and the idea is I am prepared for eventual. Of course guys I am not the person that my Div notes projects me as. I accept I made mistakes and I did whatever was told to me. Why this?