Subsidized Education - ROTP

[SupersonicMax]

Piper, the CF accepts it.  If you can't accept it, too bad for you.  Some people have a life outside the military.

Yes, my job is demanding and during the week, I spend 95% of my time towards my job.  When I'm on days off however, I spend time with my family. 

What you suggest is absurd.  If you sign up at let's say, 17.  That means that until 30, an officer shouldn't have a family, a wife, kids?  What if the kid becomes sick?  What if the wife just can't do it anymore?  You suck it up, break your relationship?  It all depends on priorities I guess... 

I don't agree that the CF "controls" you.  That's the most idiotic thing I've heard.  It's supposed to be a win-win situation between you and the CF.  The day you, or the CF become unhappy (and I'm not talking superficial unhappiness) with how things are going, then it's better for you and the CF to release.  THAT'S WHY THERE IS A RELEASE SYSTEM.

 

[ballz]

How would that change anything? I would sign a 9 year "contract" at the end of a 4 year degree. That still doesn't change the fact that, if 3 or 4 years down the road the gov't starts making all kinds of cuts and completely changes everything and you went from a good job with a decent living to a job where you are under-equipped with your life on the line, and can no longer feed and cloth your dependants, you are stuck.

Look, my beef is with the word "contract" right from the get-go. It's not a proper "contract," its a load of f**kery. If a bank or a sports team or whatever wants to put me on a contract that I am obliged to complete without no chance of release, then you can be sure I won't sign it if they're allowed to sign me to that contract and drop my wage and standard of workplace the next day. And the same works with the CF.

Those are not the terms of the contract that I signed. The contract I signed says I *may* be able to release. So if the gov't does decides that I'm not valuable to them, then I can possibly leave.

What you're saying is we should all go sign contracts with fixed terms but not fixed incomes. Would you recommend an athlete, no matter how sure he was that he wanted to play professional for his club, sign a contract that says "you will have to play for us for 13 years but we get to pay you whatever we want and we get to equip you with whatever we want."? Probably not, so why is it any different for military personnel?

Again, it should never even be called a contract.

As for something plausible, it is plausible under the contract you're suggesting. There is no garuntee they would say "well that just wouldn't be nice, so we'll give you early retirement." Why would they? If they've got you by the balls and can take advantage of you? Why would they?

 

[Lumber]

Look, my beef is with the word "contract" right from the get-go. It's not a proper "contract," its a load of f**kery. If a bank or a sports team or whatever wants to put me on a contract that I am obliged to complete without no chance of release, then you can be sure I won't sign it if they're allowed to sign me to that contract and drop my wage and standard of workplace the next day.

ballz,

No contract is one hundred percent concrete. Contracts are broken all the time. Most contract have clauses in them that explain the procedure and penalties incurred resulting from the cancellation of the contract. Brian McCabe was on a 7 year contract for the Maple Leafs, but is he still there now? No.

...

Piper,

First off, I don't go to RMC (I'm pretty serious about making that distinction).

Why?

I'm not sure how things work in your job, but if you talk to junior officers in my field of work you DO dedicate yourself 100% to the military as a junior officer. There are lots of secondary jobs, odd jobs, duty etc to be done and if you aren't ready for that, don't sign. One of the best lines I was told (when discussing apartments) was 'live in the shacks, you'll never be home anyways except for a change of clothes'.

You think that for the months and years that you're not on deployment. where you'll be sitting in an officer working 0800-1530 and 0800-1300 on Fridays in battalion that you'll have to more time than to go home to change your clothes? I'm sure you think that you're exaggerating just a little, but in reality this is a gross error. You'll have plenty of time at home, out in town with your friends (if you have any), at the gym etc. And I'm not talking on weekends either.

In your field of work, eh? Go to talk to a sailor who spends 50% of his year, every year, at sea, away from his, his family, his friends.

So you want all the benefits of a CF career (education, training, work experience) but want that 'out' just in case? In other words, have your cake and eat it too.

Yes, yes I do. Just like with any job. My dad is a fireman. He has an awesome pension plan, amazing hours, 8 weeks of vacation and benefits coming out of his wazoo. Could he up and quit tomorrow? Sure could.

Do you think, for some reason, that unless you put yourself in tunnel vision and say "there is nothing else but my job," that you won't be an effective leader? I would argue the exact opposite, actually. I would argue that unless you have a life, with friends, and a family, and hobbies, then you will not be as effective leader as possible. For one, as the CF, we work hard to protect these things; they are what we hold dear. Second, they make your life more pleasant, which is a strong motivator in job performance. The problem is, sometimes these things can conflict with your career. What if your wife or child needs to be on dialysis? Maybe you would think that taking care of them is more important than your continuing your career in the CF.  Personally, I don't know myself what I would do in this situation, but I feel comfortable knowing that should it arise, I have the option of terminating my contract to be with them should I choose to.

 

[ballz]

ballz,

No contract is one hundred percent concrete. Contracts are broken all the time. Most contract have clauses in them that explain the procedure and penalties incurred resulting from the cancellation of the contract. Brian McCabe was on a 7 year contract for the Maple Leafs, but is he still there now? No.

McCabe's contract was paid out to him, so it was fullfilled... Besides why are you arguing with me? We're on the same side of the fence for this one.

 

[chris_log]

You think that for the months and years that you're not on deployment. where you'll be sitting in an officer working 0800-1530 and 0800-1300 on Fridays in battalion that you'll have to more time than to go home to change your clothes? I'm sure you think that you're exaggerating just a little, but in reality this is a gross error. You'll have plenty of time at home, out in town with your friends (if you have any), at the gym etc. And I'm not talking on weekends either.

In your field of work, eh? Go to talk to a sailor who spends 50% of his year, every year, at sea, away from his, his family, his friends.

: You havn't been in long enough to start anything with the whole "well in the navy we..." subject. Its a stupid argument used by amateurs.

Yes, in my field of work. Junior officers (Lt-Capt) who have been at this for years. To use your example, you think you get off at 1300 on Friday eh? WRONG. Maybe your out of the office, then you've got sports...mandatory TGIF etc. It's not a gross error. I'll tell people I know at a certain unit in Pet that you think they get off at 1300 on Friday...they'll be happy to hear that.

I (and anyone else with half a brain) will listen to people who have been there, not you (who hasn't been anywhere). Your basing your comments on what again (keep mind I've worked with a battalion before for a bit, so I DO have a basic working knowledge of what they get up to).......?

Do you think, for some reason, that unless you put yourself in tunnel vision and say "there is nothing else but my job," that you won't be an effective leader? I would argue the exact opposite, actually. I would argue that unless you have a life, with friends, and a family, and hobbies, then you will not be as effective leader as possible. For one, as the CF, we work hard to protect these things; they are what we hold dear. Second, they make your life more pleasant, which is a strong motivator in job performance. The problem is, sometimes these things can conflict with your career. What if your wife or child needs to be on dialysis? Maybe you would think that taking care of them is more important than your continuing your career in the CF.  Personally, I don't know myself what I would do in this situation, but I feel comfortable knowing that should it arise, I have the option of terminating my contract to be with them should I choose to.

I never said there shouldn't be an out. Just that people shouldn't go in with the thought that they can quit whenever the want with no problem. And for your information, there are many people in the CF who can handle far more desperate family situations and remain in the service.

Still putting your foot in your mouth I see? Sigh.

 

[ballz]

Why are you arguing then? I'm sure not suggesting people go ahead and sign the contract because "there is an out." Like I said, you should have full intentions of fulfilling it. But to say that "if you wouldn't sign it if there weren't an out, then you shouldn't sign it at all" is quite simply stupid.

 

[SupersonicMax]

Piper, you don't have much experience eighter, and I doubt you have very much (if any) experience in a real unit in a real position (ok, maybe in the reserves). Have you experienced life outside school (ie: university)?  If not (and this is my guess since you're 21, and you're an Ocdt), then you'll realize after you get out of that "sterile" environment that real situations occur outside work, especially as you get older, the people around you get older and you get more and more responsibilities outside work.  It never happenned to me that I had to reconsider my decision to serve, however, I can see how a situation leading to that may develop. Different person, different priorities.  You can't expect EVERY member of the CF to be 1000% dedicated to the job, at all cost.  If we only enrolled that kind of candidate, we would have a very small army.  And yes, for some people, this is just an other job.

Again, you may have all the good intentions you want when you sign, however down the road (and 13 years is a LONG road), you may be confronted with a situation that will (and should) make you reconsider your initial decision.  For the 100th time, this is why we have a release system. This doesn't only come from me, but also from the chains of command I served under, which made it clear that there is nothing wrong with someone leaving at the end of their compulsory service if they so wish then.  If the military was to keep everyone after their compulsory service, it could lead to demographic problems.  Not everybody can be promoted past Captains and you can only have so many "old" Captains.  You need room for the brand new, full of piss and vinegar Captains.  The system is made that way.  As the years go, so does the number of people you started with.

I don't understand why you make such a big deal of it when the CF are totally onboard with the release program and make it available to the members...

 

[chris_log]

Piper, you don't have much experience eighter, and I doubt you have very much (if any) experience in a real unit in a real position (ok, maybe in the reserves). Have you experienced life outside school (ie: university)?  If not (and this is my guess since you're 21, and you're an Ocdt), then you'll realize after you get out of that "sterile" environment that real situations occur outside work, especially as you get older, the people around you get older and you get more and more responsibilities outside work.  It never happenned to me that I had to reconsider my decision to serve, however, I can see how a situation leading to that may develop. Different person, different priorities.  You can't expect EVERY member of the CF to be 1000% dedicated to the job, at all cost.  If we only enrolled that kind of candidate, we would have a very small army.  And yes, for some people, this is just an other job

Yes, I have.  :

Well, I've made my point. And I'm tired of aruging this over and over. I'll leave you with one more thought, since you like to aruge that 'its what people with more bars think is right'....it has been proven time and time again that what the 'big guys' think is right is not necessarily the best idea.

 

[SupersonicMax]

Piper, so you have a house, a spouse/wife/husband, animals, kids?

I doubt that 5 different chain of commands would all be terriblly wrong on their end.  They have a broader picture that you and I have.  As a counter question, what problems has the release system brought to the CF?

 

[aesop081]

it has been proven time and time again that what the 'big guys' think is right is not necessarily the best idea.

Be that as it may, when someone with more bars tells you to do something.......stfu and do it regardless of what you think. I'm pretty sure that this also has been proven time and time again.

 

[PMedMoe]

This may be slightly off topic, but if anyone thinks 13 years is a long road for a career, don't bother getting married or having children.

If someone had offered me an education for signing a contract, I would have stayed in university.

 

[Drag]

I completely agree with you Max in that if we only recruited, the gung-ho, Rambo, " if the army wanted you to have a wife and a life outside of work they would issue them to you" types, we would be in serious trouble.   I like military life and plan on sticking with it, but you never know what could happen when life happens.  Once your obligatory service is done, unless there is a service necessity, you should be free to release.  That is why people who VR before completing theircontacts do not get severance and IRP moves.

 

[Lumber]

: You havn't been in long enough to start anything with the whole "well in the navy we..." subject. Its a stupid argument used by amateurs.

You don't even need to be in the navy to know they spend a lot of time at sea away from families. It's not a stupid argument at all; I use the example because I relate to the navy.

And YOU haven't been in long enough either. I'm sorry, but at 21, and being in civilian university, there's no way you've spent enough time "in Battalion" to claim anything.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

The last few pages reminds me of 4 virgins discussing sex techniques. :brickwall:

 

[aesop081]

The last few pages reminds me of 4 virgins discussing sex techniques. :brickwall:

The blind leading the blind again........its an awesome leadership skill.

 

[ballz]

The last few pages reminds me of 4 virgins discussing sex techniques. :brickwall:

Never sir, has my naiveness been put into such great context. Thank you haha.

 

[x_EN]

I'm finishing my 11th year of high school, so this is a far off concern. I'm interested in the direct-entry to the officer corps, and I have read through various sources including this website that a university degree is practically a requirement for candidacy. This is good, because I was planning to take a bachelor's degree in chemistry, and I have also read that the CF will subsidize your continuing education if you sign on for an extended tour of duty (5 years I believe).

What I'm slightly confused about are the specifics. Does this mean that immediately after high school you are paid to attend RMC in Kingston? Or does it go beyond this? For example, if I wanted to get a B.Sc. in chemistry at the University of British Columbia, would the CF pay for my education there in part or in its entirety? If this is an option, how many years would I attend the RMC after completing a bachelor's degree? Would I enlist immediately after high school, halfway through my university education, or at its conclusion?

One final question was to do with vision - I am slightly nearsighted, so I wear contact lenses. There have been many threads to do with vision problems and laser eye surgery in the air force (where anything less than natural 20/20 vision is unacceptable), but I have not found the answer to this question. The vision impairment is so slight that I am legally allowed to drive without glasses (though my vision has probably deteriorated since I got my licence), but I'm thinking of getting laser eye surgery at some point to correct it. Would this be a problem or cause me to have some restrictions on my service if this is the case?

Thanks in advance for answering the load of questions I threw down.

 

[SupersonicMax]

I would suggest your start by searching for "ROTP" and "Pilot Vision" on the forum.  If you have further questions after reading, fire away.

 

[Brasidas]

I'm finishing my 11th year of high school, so this is a far off concern. I'm interested in the direct-entry to the officer corps, and I have read through various sources including this website that a university degree is practically a requirement for candidacy. This is good, because I was planning to take a bachelor's degree in chemistry, and I have also read that the CF will subsidize your continuing education if you sign on for an extended tour of duty (5 years I believe).

The CF will (partially) subsidize a lot of post secondary education programs for simply being in the reserves. Look for references to ILP. Full subsidy of undergraduate programs is available through ROTP, which does mean an obligation of years of service.

One final question was to do with vision - I am slightly nearsighted, so I wear contact lenses. There have been many threads to do with vision problems and laser eye surgery in the air force (where anything less than natural 20/20 vision is unacceptable), but I have not found the answer to this question. The vision impairment is so slight that I am legally allowed to drive without glasses (though my vision has probably deteriorated since I got my licence), but I'm thinking of getting laser eye surgery at some point to correct it. Would this be a problem or cause me to have some restrictions on my service if this is the case?

You no longer have to be born (and keep) 20/20 vision to be a pilot anymore. It's possible to get laser surgery these days. Check with your CFRC to confirm what surgeries they have concerns about and what restrictions you'll have (eg. needing to wait six months before your application goes any further after surgery).

 

[x_EN]

I did do a fair bit of reading around these forums, not sure how I missed the entire forum dedicated to RMC and ROTP though. Thanks for the quick reply in any case. I can also see how you misunderstood my question about vision, it was badly worded. What I meant was that I had seen the threads to do with vision in the air force branch, but none for general service in the army (which I would like to go into). I take it if the air force has loosened their standards in that area, the army certainly has the same or more relaxed vision requirements.

I'll definitely go to the recruitment center to get more details on the education options.