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Sexual Misconduct Allegations in The CAF

rnkelly

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I’m confused, weren’t these supposed to be transferred to civilian courts?

Or, are these the ones that the civilian courts refused to take?
 

FJAG

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I’m confused, weren’t these supposed to be transferred to civilian courts?

Or, are these the ones that the civilian courts refused to take?
Some were already in the military system and will be completed there. All new ones go downtown.

🍻
 

Lumber

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There, FTFY ;)
When they first announced this I was sort of against it because I felt like the military was caving to social pressure vice making a smart decision.

The more I think about it though, the more I think it's a genius move on the part of the military. The military is under extreme scrutiny for everything related to sexual assault/misconduct/harrasement/behaviour/etc. There is a huge impression that we are not impartial and protect or own/our senior ppl. Now, personally I think there was definitely a lot of that going on that prevented cases from even being investigated/charged in the first place, but I believe that once we actually got cases into our justice system that we did not better or worse than the public would. So, once we transfer responsibility for these things to the public sector, the military can effectively absolve itself of all criticism related to this process. It's genius if you ask me. Whether this will actually be better for the members though, I'm holding out hope. I have some opinions but they are rational and anectodal at best.
 

brihard

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When they first announced this I was sort of against it because I felt like the military was caving to social pressure vice making a smart decision.

The more I think about it though, the more I think it's a genius move on the part of the military. The military is under extreme scrutiny for everything related to sexual assault/misconduct/harrasement/behaviour/etc. There is a huge impression that we are not impartial and protect or own/our senior ppl. Now, personally I think there was definitely a lot of that going on that prevented cases from even being investigated/charged in the first place, but I believe that once we actually got cases into our justice system that we did not better or worse than the public would. So, once we transfer responsibility for these things to the public sector, the military can effectively absolve itself of all criticism related to this process. It's genius if you ask me. Whether this will actually be better for the members though, I'm holding out hope. I have some opinions but they are rational and anectodal at best.
The civilian criminal justice system will only deal with criminal complaints. The broader category of “harmful and inappropriate sexual behaviour” will be of zero interest to civilian law enforcement or courts. Something will either be criminal or it will not. A CAF member won’t be able to go to Halifax police or Pembroke OPP or Cold Lake RCMP and seek recourse for, as an example, a superior making sexual used comments about them in the workplace. CAF will still have to deal with the HR aspects of this. And I believe the majority of HISB will fall well short of the criminal level, but will still post HR challenges for CAF.

Kicking the criminal files to civvie street is probably a smart move, but it only shuffles some of the problem.
 

OldSolduer

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Kicking the criminal files to civvie street is probably a smart move, but it only shuffles some of the problem.
The problem is twofold IMO - first the CAF recruited the problem, then failed to do anything about it when the problem became a problem.

That sounds a lot like Jean Chretien quote - just listen to him "say dat in your ead"
 

QV

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The civilian criminal justice system will only deal with criminal complaints. The broader category of “harmful and inappropriate sexual behaviour” will be of zero interest to civilian law enforcement or courts. Something will either be criminal or it will not. A CAF member won’t be able to go to Halifax police or Pembroke OPP or Cold Lake RCMP and seek recourse for, as an example, a superior making sexual used comments about them in the workplace. CAF will still have to deal with the HR aspects of this. And I believe the majority of HISB will fall well short of the criminal level, but will still post HR challenges for CAF.

Kicking the criminal files to civvie street is probably a smart move, but it only shuffles some of the problem.

There was a time when files like this did go downtown all the time, as did any criminal case when the investigating MP swore an information. Then in around 2011ish there were significant changes to the military police group orders and the powers-that-be decided "primacy of the military justice system" which they stated meant that so long as there was the slimmest whiff of a "military nexus" the file was dealt with in the military justice system... This was colossally stupid and resulted in all manner of serious crimes being referred to military courts. I have my own opinions why the CAF wanted to keep these kinds of things in house rather then let the civilian courts handle it.

Edit: to strike out a word.
 
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Lumber

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There was a time when files like this did go downtown all the time, as did any criminal case when the investigating MP swore an information. Then in around 2011ish there were significant changes to the military police group orders and the powers-that-be decided "primacy of the military justice system" which they stated meant that so long as there was the slimmest whiff of a "military nexus" the file was dealt with in the military justice system... This was colossally stupid and resulted in all manner of serious crimes being referred to military courts. I have my own opinions why the CAF wanted to keep these kinds of things in house rather then let the civilian courts handle it.
Does your opinion happen to be that the Harper government was obsessed with controlling the narrative?
 

OldSolduer

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The problem is twofold IMO - first the CAF recruited the problem, then failed to do anything about it when the problem became a problem.

That sounds a lot like Jean Chretien quote - just listen to him "say dat in your ead"
Make that threefold - society either failed to recognize the problem and if it did it did nothing to take care of it.

We all have a story "Well so and so was a bit weird (or off or whatever descriptor you want to insert) but....."
 

QV

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Does your opinion happen to be that the Harper government was obsessed with controlling the narrative?

I think it's less to do with government controlling the narrative and more to do with senior CAF wanting to avoid public embarrassment while retaining more control/influence in the outcome. Just an opinion from the cheap seats.
 

brihard

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I think it's less to do with government controlling the narrative and more to do with senior CAF wanting to avoid public embarrassment while retaining more control/influence in the outcome. Just an opinion from the cheap seats.
An informed one, though. Thanks for that.
 

Good2Golf

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And hot off the press today. Surprisingly the CBC writes a fairly damning article on an investigation gone wrong.


A sad situation that puts in question the impartiality of an investigative service that is supposed to (or should) consider relevant evidence/information in the determination to lay charges (which imply an assessment of likely successful prosecution, in order to proceed with charges).

"It's not unusual," said [Professor of Law] Scott, who added that in this instance, military police "would charge based on the evidence produced through the complaint from a victim.

"And they don't have an obligation — as the law as currently is understood at the stage of investigation and charge — to go talk to the accused."

I certainly think AN investigation should continue, but the CFNIS is seriously compromised in this regard, and should be removed from the process.
 

OldSolduer

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A sad situation that puts in question the impartiality of an investigative service that is supposed to (or should) consider relevant evidence/information in the determination to lay charges (which imply an assessment of likely successful prosecution, in order to proceed with charges).



I certainly think AN investigation should continue, but the CFNIS is seriously compromised in this regard, and should be removed from the process.
I've seen this song before. One of my soldiers was never given the benefit of the doubt and was railroaded by the CoC until one of the officers - a female Log type - got on the case and saved his ass. The female soldier who accused him was posted out and I do not believe was ever held accountable.

And another thing - the captain who investigated my soldier was dating the accuser at the time.

From what I have read here about the pilot and his subsequent suicide it seems the CFNIS had their collective minds made up. A pox on them all.

A$$holes.
 

Humphrey Bogart

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A sad situation that puts in question the impartiality of an investigative service that is supposed to (or should) consider relevant evidence/information in the determination to lay charges (which imply an assessment of likely successful prosecution, in order to proceed with charges).



I certainly think AN investigation should continue, but the CFNIS is seriously compromised in this regard, and should be removed from the process.
I'm going to say it again:

If you ever have the misfortune of being accused of something, THE POLICE ARE NOT YOUR FRIEND, Don't talk to them, don't try to "Explain your side of the story".

The Police don't care about your side of the story, it's not "Anything you say can and will be used FOR YOU". It's "Anything you say can and will be used AGAINST YOU"

Be polite and courteous and politely decline to answer any of their questions and don't cooperate one bit.

In their mind, you're already a criminal scumbag, so screw them. Don't help them at all 😉.
 
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