RMC Class of 2010

[Strike]

We (non-army) don't like to partake in this stuff, so the army guys are left holding the tiller, just like on range days.

Guess what my friend, it doesn't matter what trade you are, you are always a soldier first.  That's why BOTC is a common phase and revolves around how the Army does things (BP and all that jazz).

As for those in the pilot trade thinking this is a good way to jump into the civvie world of flying, let's look at a few stats.

About 60% of flying pilots are on helos.

After your mandatory 7 yrs after wings, you will make about $85 grand (including flight pay).

A civvie captain for Canadian helicopters is lucky to break $60 grand.

To get into any of the heavies for Air Canada you need at least 3000 hrs, most of which should be as an ac.  Good luck getting that in our fixed wing world in that time period.

The point is, although many might join with thoughts on the future outside of the military, many will decide to stay in for the long haul (20-25 yrs, depending on when you signed your IE).  Asking an RMC student what they plan on doing in the future is like asking an Artsman at Queens where they will work when they finish school.  It's not always what is planned for.

 

[Shamrock]

Asking an RMC student what they plan on doing in the future is like asking an Artsman at Queens where they will work when they finish school.  It's not always what is planned for.

Ey!  I know *exactly* what I'll be doing when I'm done school!

As for Fred's can of worms, I wonder if there were seperate Navy and Air Academies just how different things would be (assuming we had the manning and carte blanche budget to do so).  Don't feed me that line about getting up early, them other elements have shift rotations.  I'm sure discipline would be just as rigidly enforced and timings as anal.  The only difference would be getting to see a bunch of other people walking around in the same clothes all day.  I have reason to suspect the academic and other standards would be just as high.

Like Fred, I don't really appreciate the "I joined to shoot stuff" attitude.  I find it refreshing to talk to someone who says he became an officer vs. ncm to further himself through education.  I don't really have qualms with people who join to leave after their contract and I don't think the military has a problem with this either (otherwise, contracts would be life-long and signed in blood... and we wouldn't have promoted attrition in the forces).  With exception, I find that these people are either some of the most switched on individuals on the face of the planet (as they want to leave with an impressive CV and a healthy network) or the world's biggest bags of crap (and we're better off without them).

The other day I got to meet a Marine Engineering Officer NCdt.  I asked him why he chose the Navy, and he said he applied for every engineering position the CF had, but the Navy hired him.  His first passion was engineering.  Should he be begrudged his passion?

 

[DVessey]

"Small Trade Syndrome".
Don't forget that as a Naval Officer, you ultimately exist so that the infantryman and armour crewman can do his or her job.  Full stop.

Get over it, BUT, never forget that you have joined up for doing the right thing AND that those combat arms "Rock Stars" who just want to shoot guns and the like will NOT make it through phase training at the combat training centre, because we don't have time for "Rock Stars".  I also have trust in RMC to root them out.  You don't need them, and neither do I.


Cheers

:cheers:

Fine, I can accept that as a future CELE officer, I'll be responsible for supporting troops in the field. I would actually like to work at CFS Leitrim, and maybe deployment(s) to Camp Mirage, but that's about as close as I'll get to the front lines.
How does doing army stuff here at the college help me to do that? (ie/ ruck marches, morning parades, etc)
Especially if it's taking time away from getting my degree? (Software Engineering, which would be *very* useful at Leitrim).

I had a great opportunity to work with a few ATIS techs this summer up in Alert(on Battery Neutralization and in the IS cell). From how they described their day-to-day lives on an AF base, RMC is nothing like the real world, and going in this more army-centric direction is just moving further and further away.

 

[DVessey]

There's actually another thread on this:

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/50360.0.html

just a heads up...

 

[George Wallace]

DVessey

You seem to be missing the boat in your reply.  You don't seem to realize that "Everyone is a Soldier First, then a Tradesman."  Obviously, with your attitude, even in Camp Mirage, you would be 'as useless as Tits on a Bull'.  Why?  Because 'if Shyte ever hit the Fan', you would be a danger to not only yourself, but all around you.  You would not have the training to stay alive, let alone defend yourself and your friends.

You have missed the whole point.  It passed completely over your head.

 

[GO!!!]

..and the success rate in that endeavour is no better than lottery tickets. What is it about having your own business that makes people think you have money?

That's a little extreme.

According to the Business development bank, about 80% of small businesses fail, and some 50% of professional practices do. In addition to this, the tax benefits, combined expenses and ability to minimise taxable income through ownership and share law mean that what is a small amount of salary can be used to much greater purchasing effect by the small business owner.

DVessey

Comments like yours demonstrate why we need to move towards the Marine ideal of "every man a rifleman", and further away from unhappily uniformed technicians, who view extremely basic skills like walking with a backpack and shooting a rifle as "taking" time away from their degree.

For you to appreciate exactly what you are supporting, you do have to be indoctrinated in it. I've had many unhappy encounters with the signals areas of our military, and while they rarely lack in technical ability, they often lack the proper context for the application of their skills. This is what the "army" part of RMC is trying to instill in you. No job in the CF happens in a vacuum, not even at Leitrim.

 

[Meridian]

How does doing army stuff here at the college help me to do that? (ie/ ruck marches, morning parades, etc)

Go and GW already answered well enough, but in any event, how does gaining a good appreciation for how the other half lives NOT help you do your job better? You aren't just a tech in uniform; if we wanted that in our forces, we would (and have) subcontracted it out.  If the position requires you to wear a uniform, you shouldn't be afraid of doing the military stuff.  We do not have three services. We have one.

Also, a ruck march can only help your physical endurance, which helps your brain work faster, longer and harder.  The discipline required in parading, and the myriad of other tasks you may not want to do but will do with excellence anyway ESPECIALLLY if they have nothing to do with "your real job" or what you "really want to do" can only help you when you are stuck on the far side of the world doing something IN your trade that you really do not want to do, but that needs to be done.

Especially if it's taking time away from getting my degree? (Software Engineering, which would be *very* useful at Leitrim).

Why  would it be taking time away from getting your degree?  Honours degrees are four years everywhere.

 

[SupersonicMax]

Why  would it be taking time away from getting your degree?  Honours degrees are four years everywhere.

Because you went to bed at 0300 in the morning to finish your 2 assignments due the next day (2 per day is an average I would say) and you ahve to get up at 0500 in the morning instead of sleeping a little bit more to get ready for school again at 0800.  RMC is based on "everyone is an artsman".  Well, they go to bed at 0300 because they were pissed the night before, I went to bed at 0300 because I had school work to do (and those who know me, that wasn't because I was disorganized.  I was actually pretty much always the first one to go to bed)

Max

 

[vonGarvin]

Ruck marches, firing rifles, polishing boots and all that jazz do more than instill an army mentality.  It has EVERYTHING to do with instilling a MILITARY mentality.  I dare you, nay, I DOUBLE dare you to tell a sailor that he doesn't know how to wax a floor, polish his boots, march smartly or fire his weapon.  Heck, I double dog dare you!
Also, it instills a sense of teamwork (you never march alone, well, you shouldn't anyway).  It all helps you pay attention to detail, and it also reminds you that you have signed up for unlimited liability.  Look it up.  Check out "Duty with Honour".  "Truth, Duty, Valour" aren't mere words, they are only symbols of how we live our lives in the Service of Arms.  EVERYONE does their part for the war effort.  If I were to walk up to a soldier changing a fuel filter, and I asked her what she was doing, I would hope she would say "helping to win the war".  Sure, not directly, naturally, but every bit counts.

 

[Infanteer]

Hah, I went to a civilian university where the chicks were civvies and I still came out with pensionable time and some mud on the boots!  That and I didn't have to play BMQ for four years.  Suckas!!!

 

[paracowboy]

whoooole lotta whining goin' on here. Good see my future "leaders" have their heads on straight. :

 

[vonGarvin]

Hah, I went to a civilian university where the chicks were civvies and I still came out with pensionable time and some mud on the boots!  That and I didn't have to play BMQ for four years.  Suckas!!!

Ditto!

UWO, baby!

http://www.uwo.ca

 

[DVessey]

DVessey

You seem to be missing the boat in your reply.  You don't seem to realize that "Everyone is a Soldier First, then a Tradesman."  Obviously, with your attitude, even in Camp Mirage, you would be 'as useless as Tits on a Bull'.  Why?  Because 'if Shyte ever hit the Fan', you would be a danger to not only yourself, but all around you.  You would not have the training to stay alive, let alone defend yourself and your friends.

You have missed the whole point.  It passed completely over your head.

Ok, if that's the situation, then why aren't I doing CAP? RMC is definitely not capable of training me to deal with 'shyte hitting the fan'. And I still fail to see how weekly ruck marches help to deal with shyte hitting the fan, other than giving me the ability to walk really well.

"Come on troops! let's walk away!"

I'm not trying to be too much of a smart ass, but I still fail to see how weekly ruck marches prepare me for the 'real world' once I graduate.

 

[SupersonicMax]

For me, all this bullcrap army things (ruck marches and more) gave me a bad taste of the military.  I joined with the intention of doing my whole career in the miltary, now I just want to do my contract (at the best of my competences) and find something better.  It might change...  I see now what the military (or more the Air Force) really has to offer and I love it.  Don't get me wrong.  It's important to do basic soldier stuff..  But do it at the right time.  I was under the impression that the staff at RMC didn't take into consideration that we were going to school and that school isn't just from 0800 to 1630 (for engineering students anyways).  And for me, that's a total lack of leadership.  During the school year (Sept to April), my focus was stricly academic.  During the summers, my focus was strictly military stuff.  During the summer you could had have me do anything (ruck marches, shooting rifles, etc) and I would never complain.  But during the academic year, I feel it's just not the right time to do those things.  Civy U guys don't have to juggle with all those things all winter long and it doesn't make them worst officers than us (sometimes I wonder if they don't have a better life experience than we do).  So for me, RMC is overrated and there is a big lack of leadership there.

Max

 

[tomahawk6]

Ruck marches help keep a soldier fit.

 

[FredDaHead]

I think the main peeve people have with the whole "army crap" deal is that, sure, "every man a rifleman" sounds great, but we do absolutely nothing related to our element (if we're not Army) except on MOC weekend and phase training. At RMC, it's all about the Army.

Like SupersonicFlyboy said, there's a time to do army stuff and a time to focus on school. Although I don't agree with his assumption that all artsmen are drunks who only party all the time, I think that the focus during the schoolyear, should be on school.

Ok, if that's the situation, then why aren't I doing CAP? RMC is definitely not capable of training me to deal with 'shyte hitting the fan'. And I still fail to see how weekly ruck marches help to deal with shyte hitting the fan, other than giving me the ability to walk really well.

I think that's another of the "main points" people are questionning. If they wanted "every man to be a rifleman," why don't they have us do stuff that'll be useful, like, say, practice shooting guns, or instruct us in how to defend a camp, or whatever, instead of just going for a little walk once a week?

 

[big bad john]

I agree, it should be a run with a ruck, and yes I am serious.  BTW  suck it up sweetheart.

 

[paracowboy]

You wanted to be officers, this how they're made. Ya'll are whining like pregnant women.

 

[FredDaHead]

I agree, it should be a run with a ruck, and yes I am serious.  BTW  suck it up sweetheart.

No problem--just tell supply to give me a goddamned ruck, 'cause right now they won't. "You're not entitled to it, you're Navy."

 

[SupersonicMax]

You wanted to be officers, this how they're made. Ya'll are whining like pregnant women.

Then why don't the Civy U guys do it?  Aren't they going to be officers too? 

And I tend to think it's the way you form ARMY (or even combat arms?) officers. 

Max