RCMP First Contract

[blacktriangle]

I hope this goes through for them. Long overdue.

 

[lenaitch]

My opinion only, but I believe part-timers bring any organization down. Not referring to yours specifically. Don't know if you have them.

I worked part-time for Ontario Corrections many years ago. The impression I had was that you care more about your full-time career than your part-time or post-retirement gig.

RCMP, OPP and Metro Police do not have part-timers. My employer didn't either. Neither did TFS or TTC for that matter.

Actually, the OPP has a few. Since policing of organized municipalities is done by cost recovery (contract or non-contract), if a municipality has some spare cash or gets some kind of grant funding, they can choose to fund a part-timer. They are often used for the D.A.R.E. program or community services/media relations or, the very odd time, supplemental patrol (foot, downtown, weekend, etc.). They are always retired members. On the civilian side, there are many areas with less-than-full-time staff.

 

[mariomike]

Actually, the OPP has a few. Since policing of organized municipalities is done by cost recovery (contract or non-contract), if a municipality has some spare cash or gets some kind of grant funding, they can choose to fund a part-timer. They are often used for the D.A.R.E. program or community services/media relations or, the very odd time, supplemental patrol (foot, downtown, weekend, etc.). They are always retired members. On the civilian side, there are many areas with less-than-full-time staff.

We have a few things to keep our retired members involved. But, it's less than full pay - and definitely nothing to do with 9-1-1 operations.

 

[brihard]

My opinion only, but I believe part-timers bring any organization down. Not referring to yours specifically. Don't know if you have them.

I worked part-time for Ontario Corrections many years ago. The impression I had was that you care more about your full-time career than your part-time or post-retirement gig.

RCMP, OPP and Metro Police do not have part-timers. My employer didn't either. Neither did TFS or TTC for that matter.

I missed this post. Regarding RCMP- not accurate. The RCMP has a reservist program comprising former Regular Members, usually augmenting a pension. Some work full time on fixed, limited duration contracts providing relief staffing to general duty detachments. Others working a few days a week or a month in security type roles at certain protected sites. Others draw on investigative skills and augment plainclothes investigative units, though this isn’t as common. But absolutely, the RCMP have some part time members.

 

[mariomike]

The RCMP has a reservist program comprising former Regular Members, usually augmenting a pension.

Lenaitch said,

They are always retired members.

I should have been more specific. I wasn't referring to retired Regular members.

I meant people hired off the street as part-time police officers.

 

[QV]

On the other hand, I don't think anybody foresaw the price of oil dropping as quickly/dramatically as it did - or a federal government that is openly hostile to the oil & gas industry. Those things could have been somewhat mitigated if we hadn't so arrogantly assumed "It's oil, this party is never going to end!" - and started investing/diversifying/planning for the future. The future just came a lot faster than anybody here suspected.

Every time I see this "Alberta hasn't diversified" notion I wonder if anyone knows how much O&G makes up of the Alberta economy? I guess it's a lot less than most think as a percentage, but the value it provided to government coffers was immense. And look now, prices are on the rise again.

 

[Eaglelord17]

Good for them even though I am dead set against the raise. Everyone else should have been going the other way, instead the tax payers will be paying more for the same service and it will be the taxpayer that suffers. Another example of the slow but steady creep of government benefits and wages well the private sector stagnates.

Not only that but in a time of extreme debt and out of control spending this is the opposite of what we need as a country when the belt should be tightened, taxes raised, and jobs cut to bring us back to fiscal responsibility.

 

[Good2Golf]

Not only that but in a time of extreme debt and out of control spending this is the opposite of what we need as a country when the belt should be tightened, taxes raised, and jobs cut to bring us back to fiscal responsibility.

Maybe the belt needs to be tightened on all the bumpf handed out to everyone and their dog, not just on the backs of RCMP officers being paid below-median rates?

The Feds have committed enough $000,000,000s at friends and family (literally), like WE, etc. that any makeup pay for RCMP wouldn’t even show up in the decimal places as a rounding error.

 

[mariomike]

Everyone else should have been going the other way, instead the tax payers will be paying more for the same service and it will be the taxpayer that suffers.

Perhaps the question should be reframed from, `I don't have it, so they shouldn't either,' to `they have it – why don't I?'

It sounds like that is how the RCMP union looked at it. Rather than cannibalizing gains made by other working people doing the same job.

It's not a race to the bottom.

 

[brihard]

The rationale for police pay has been discussed elsewhere, no sense repeating.

Voting for the contract by members of the union started today. It will pass with an overwhelming majority. This will staunch the bleed and rejuvenate recruiting, and will tide the membership over through the next couple years of working to sort out matters like staffing, the promotional process, etc. Essentially this protects the RCMP from a Human Resources collapse brought about by limited recruiting, bottom of the barrel applicants, and a hemmorhage of experienced police to other services. This contract will be ratified before the end of July.

 

[Eaglelord17]

Maybe the belt needs to be tightened on all the bumpf handed out to everyone and their dog, not just on the backs of RCMP officers being paid below-median rates?

The Feds have committed enough $000,000,000s at friends and family (literally), like WE, etc. that any makeup pay for RCMP wouldn’t even show up in the decimal places as a rounding error.

Ok and just because our government has some corruption and incompetency does that mean we should just throw money away for nothing? If you follow my posts I am pretty much for everyone in the public service (including the MPs and such) getting a pay cut and bringing about fiscal responsibility we so desperately need as a country. I also dislike handouts and the many other expenses we are failing to pay for at the moment (hence the national debt).

Perhaps the question should be reframed from, `I don't have it, so they shouldn't either,' to `they have it – why don't I?'

It sounds like that is how the RCMP union looked at it. Rather than cannibalizing gains made by other working people.

It's not a race to the bottom.

Its not a race to the top climbing over the backs of those who pay your wages either. Currently the government is killing industry in Canada, raising the cost of living with things such as the carbon tax, increasing the CPP and EI payments (another 550$ out of my pocket each year right there as a increase in 1 year, mainly to pay for the increase in benefits being provided to people who never paid those increases in the first place), etc. Explain to me how adding more government spending, which will ultimately be paid from my pockets (or more likely my children's with the way we simply accrue debt and pass it on), is going to help me? When your salary is already more than the household average for Canada with a stellar pension and benefits, I really don't feel that much sympathy about how much they were being paid.

No point in arguing this point though as we have both been here before, and both know where the other stands.

 

[Good2Golf]

No point in arguing this point though as we have both been here before, and both know where the other stands.

Yeah, hopefully the RCMP don’t get that raise and public servants at all provincial and federal levels also get their pay clawed back. In fact, maybe a full-on Marxist-based equity program is in order…

 

[CBH99]

Every time I see this "Alberta hasn't diversified" notion I wonder if anyone knows how much O&G makes up of the Alberta economy? I guess it's a lot less than most think as a percentage, but the value it provided to government coffers was immense. And look now, prices are on the rise again.

Just a few random thoughts on this, and I am by no means an expert. Having grown up here, and grown up mostly during the 'boom years', and now doing what I do for work - I have had the opportunity and privilege to sit down and have some very candid and casual conversations with Premier Notley, and now Premier Kenny.

- Oil prices may be on the rise, but a large chunk of the infrastructure to capitalize on O&G in Alberta has either been shut down, sold off, or is othewise no longer in service. Yes, there are several camps doing oil & gas work, and there are plenty of jobs that support the oil & gas industry - but the number of projects, number of wells, number of active sites, etc etc is down substantially from even 6 or 7 years ago. So while prices may rise, Alberta isn't in a great position to capitalize on that at the moment.

- It was explained to me by several folks in the know that as a percentage, O&G is actually hard to measure in terms of a percentage. The oil companies pay revenues to the provincial government in the magnitude of hundreds of millions, to billions, to tens of billions of dollars - at least they used to, when the province was bumping along. A lot of those royalties are no longer coming in, due to the reason stated above.

But what the province DOESN'T get any royalties or income on, are all of the companies that service the oil industry. Equipment rentals, companies that provide specialized services (aircraft that use IR & other advanced sensors to detect and measure pipelines, companies that provide specialists who repel into oil sites after shutdown & measure a variety of things such as radiation, fumes, etc) - I'll word this as 'capital equipment rentals' that lease or rent the gigantic trucks that are only operated in the actual oilsand itself, companies that specialize in land reclamation, safety companies, medical companies, companies that survey service roads & land compositions, etc.

That doesn't include all of the folks who have started their own small companies, who may/may not have incorporated, who are contracted out by both oil & gas companies, as well as the companies that support the industry. (Welders, for example.)

And that is where a majority of the work is these days. So even if there is a minor increase in business, it doesn't mean much for provincial coffers as a whole. The big money that the government relied on came as royalties from the big oil companies like Shell, Husky, Chevron, etc - most of whom have shut down several of their sites and projects. The Tekk Project was also killed before it could start, and that would have been a huge boon for the province.

^ That's how it was explained to me, anyway. I could very well be wrong.


(Sorry for the lengthy post that isn't remotely related to the thread. I wasn't trying to derail in the slightest.)

 

[Weinie]

Ok and just because our government has some corruption and incompetency does that mean we should just throw money away for nothing? If you follow my posts I am pretty much for everyone in the public service (including the MPs and such) getting a pay cut and bringing about fiscal responsibility we so desperately need as a country. I also dislike handouts and the many other expenses we are failing to pay for at the moment (hence the national debt).

Its not a race to the top climbing over the backs of those who pay your wages either. Currently the government is killing industry in Canada, raising the cost of living with things such as the carbon tax, increasing the CPP and EI payments (another 550$ out of my pocket each year right there as a increase in 1 year, mainly to pay for the increase in benefits being provided to people who never paid those increases in the first place), etc. Explain to me how adding more government spending, which will ultimately be paid from my pockets (or more likely my children's with the way we simply accrue debt and pass it on), is going to help me? When your salary is already more than the household average for Canada with a stellar pension and benefits, I really don't feel that much sympathy about how much they were being paid.

No point in arguing this point though as we have both been here before, and both know where the other stands.

My wife and I, who are both military, paid almost $80K in federal and provincial taxes last year, and pension contributions, notwithstanding how much we paid in consumption taxes. (I like beer and we drive two vehicles). That represents 40% of our earnings.

I get taxed like you do. I don't like it, but I also have been to too many shitholes on this planet to complain about what taxes bring. First World complaint.

 

[Eaglelord17]

My wife and I, who are both military, paid almost $80K in federal and provincial taxes last year, and pension contributions, notwithstanding how much we paid in consumption taxes. (I like beer and we drive two vehicles). That represents 40% of our earnings.

I get taxed like you do. I don't like it, but I also have been to too many shitholes on this planet to complain about what taxes bring. First World complaint.

Your right that it is a first world complaint to want fiscal responsibility and good management, many of the kleptocracies of the world wouldn't tolerate that concept, hell our current PM is doing his best to emulate some of them. It is a large part of what separates us from them.

Congrats on paying taxes, there is a difference between the public sector paying taxes and the private sector paying taxes. One is simply returning some of the wealth they paid out, the other is actually bringing in new funds and is required to keep our whole society functioning. When our public sector is on average overpaid by 16-32% on what the private sector makes for the same job, and any sort of questioning as to why we are paying them that much is met with a immediate dismissal of the questioning it sounds a bit like 'let them eat cake'.

 

[Good2Golf]

…When our public sector is on average overpaid by 16-32% on what the private sector makes for the same job, and any sort of questioning as to why we are paying them that much is met with a immediate dismissal of the questioning it sounds a bit like 'let them eat cake'.

I’m always curious to see numbers on this…numbers that aren’t cherry-picked for a kid out of community college vs a 20-year CR-04 type of comparison. It certainly doesn’t apply to all levels of private vs public sector, that’s for sure. Releasing and NOT taking a PS job was the best thing I ever did for my bank account.

 

[brihard]

Your right that it is a first world complaint to want fiscal responsibility and good management, many of the kleptocracies of the world wouldn't tolerate that concept, hell our current PM is doing his best to emulate some of them. It is a large part of what separates us from them.

Congrats on paying taxes, there is a difference between the public sector paying taxes and the private sector paying taxes. One is simply returning some of the wealth they paid out, the other is actually bringing in new funds and is required to keep our whole society functioning. When our public sector is on average overpaid by 16-32% on what the private sector makes for the same job, and any sort of questioning as to why we are paying them that much is met with a immediate dismissal of the questioning it sounds a bit like 'let them eat cake'.

I'll bite. What's the going private sector rate for a military officer? Or for a police constable? How are the physical and legal risks, responsibilities, and liabilities priced?

The military is a bit of an interesting beast in that its salary is linked to the public service with approximations of levels of responsibility, plus a small additional percentage as the 'military factor' to compensate for some of the unique suck of the military. Additional risks and hardships have their own allowance structure.

Police compensation is mostly benchmarked off other police compensation. Within Canada, the median base salary for a constable first class (3-5 years of service depending on the organization) is just under $100k. The top salary is just under $108k, and a handful at the bottom make between $80-$90k. The Quebec services are disproportionately clustered very low on the list, though this is a bit deceptive- they have negotiated allowances/shift premiums that nearly everyone qualified for but that don't appear on base salary figures.

In the context of the RCMP, they are unique among any sizable police service in Canada of never having had a collective agreement, though that may change on Monday. The RCMP have up til a few years ago been denied the legal right to collectively bargain for compensation that is both fair in its own right, and that is comparable to other police services. Now they can, and now it appears that Treasury Board has recognized that the proper comparators necessitate paying the RCMP on par with other major police services. Not right up at the top, but at least they'll be competitive.

Where this REALLY maters is recruiting and retention. The RCMP have for years been a farm team for any of the big municipal services. The RCMP lose literally hundreds of members a year to other police services that can offer geographic stability and much better pay. The RCMP have also had to contend with 'what's left' in the recruiting pool. They hire more slowly, and for a position that pays less. As a consequence, those municipalities policed by the RCMP have been facing dramatic shortages in staffing levels, soft vacancies have not been backfilled, and a disproportionate number of high quality members who are junior enough in service to lateral out have done so. Hopefully now they will be able to attract better people and to keep more of them. This will pay dividends in the communities they police.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Fed government overpays for things like clerical, it under pays for things like technical and certification jobs like Marine tickets, to the point where people laugh when you tell them how much your offering. It used to be security, stability and pension vs higher pay. Now we can't really offer that either. There are layers of management types that could be disposed of without notice to end products, however those people excel at avoiding the axe and every job cut hits the people actually working for the public.

 

[mariomike]

When our public sector is on average overpaid by 16-32% on what the private sector makes for the same job, and any sort of questioning as to why we are paying them that much is met with a immediate dismissal of the questioning it sounds a bit like 'let them eat cake'.

I’m always curious to see numbers on this…numbers that aren’t cherry-picked for a kid out of community college vs a 20-year CR-04 type of comparison. It certainly doesn’t apply to all levels of private vs public sector, that’s for sure. Releasing and NOT taking a PS job was the best thing I ever did for my bank account.

Whatever it is, public vs private, union vs non-union, rather than cannibalizing gains made by other working people, why not reframe it from, `I don't have it, so they shouldn't either,' to `they have it – why don't I?' It's not a race to the bottom.

 

[Eaglelord17]

I’m always curious to see numbers on this…numbers that aren’t cherry-picked for a kid out of community college vs a 20-year CR-04 type of comparison. It certainly doesn’t apply to all levels of private vs public sector, that’s for sure. Releasing and NOT taking a PS job was the best thing I ever did for my bank account.

Private sector workers earn less, work more: report

The average public sector employee makes 18 to 37 per cent more than a comparable employee working in the private sector, according to a new report from the Canadian Federation of Independent Business.

www.ctvnews.ca

Obviously it isn't equal with some jobs underpaid, but in many cases a lot are overpaid too. Best comment I saw in a while to explain this is Private sector is driven by profits which results in as much cutting as possible. The Public sector isn't and the wages are only really constrained by how much the taxpayer is willing to put up with not by any sort of defined metric.

I'll bite. What's the going private sector rate for a military officer? Or for a police constable? How are the physical and legal risks, responsibilities, and liabilities priced?

The military is a bit of an interesting beast in that its salary is linked to the public service with approximations of levels of responsibility, plus a small additional percentage as the 'military factor' to compensate for some of the unique suck of the military. Additional risks and hardships have their own allowance structure.

Police compensation is mostly benchmarked off other police compensation. Within Canada, the median base salary for a constable first class (3-5 years of service depending on the organization) is just under $100k. The top salary is just under $108k, and a handful at the bottom make between $80-$90k. The Quebec services are disproportionately clustered very low on the list, though this is a bit deceptive- they have negotiated allowances/shift premiums that nearly everyone qualified for but that don't appear on base salary figures.

In the context of the RCMP, they are unique among any sizable police service in Canada of never having had a collective agreement, though that may change on Monday. The RCMP have up til a few years ago been denied the legal right to collectively bargain for compensation that is both fair in its own right, and that is comparable to other police services. Now they can, and now it appears that Treasury Board has recognized that the proper comparators necessitate paying the RCMP on par with other major police services. Not right up at the top, but at least they'll be competitive.

Where this REALLY maters is recruiting and retention. The RCMP have for years been a farm team for any of the big municipal services. The RCMP lose literally hundreds of members a year to other police services that can offer geographic stability and much better pay. The RCMP have also had to contend with 'what's left' in the recruiting pool. They hire more slowly, and for a position that pays less. As a consequence, those municipalities policed by the RCMP have been facing dramatic shortages in staffing levels, soft vacancies have not been backfilled, and a disproportionate number of high quality members who are junior enough in service to lateral out have done so. Hopefully now they will be able to attract better people and to keep more of them. This will pay dividends in the communities they police.

Comparable ways to measure military pay is to look at equivalent militaries. A basic Captain in Canada makes almost 84k a year. A Army officer in the UK makes 74122.12$ after conversion. A Australian Captain makes 65238.85$ after conversion. A New Zealand officer makes 67472.84$ after conversion. These are all fairly comparable militaries and countries and we are well beyond them in pay. You could also likely do the same thing with police around the world and also likely find we are paying much more than most.

I understand this will help the RCMP in many ways and I disagreed with a massive pay gap between them and municipalities. However I would rather have seen it solved the other way with the other forces being made comparable to them. To me the Police in country are paid well beyond what they should be for the work that is done (safer to be a cop today than it ever has been in history). I would rather the police be paid a bit less with more cops on the streets as my preferred outcome.

Fed government overpays for things like clerical, it under pays for things like technical and certification jobs like Marine tickets, to the point where people laugh when you tell them how much your offering. It used to be security, stability and pension vs higher pay. Now we can't really offer that either. There are layers of management types that could be disposed of without notice to end products, however those people excel at avoiding the axe and every job cut hits the people actually working for the public.

Of course, you have to have the papers to justify your own position, many of the jobs which would be easiest to cut in any organization also tend to be the ones who protect themselves the most.