Pay increments

[expwor]

Although not in the Canadian Forces I am retired from the Federal Public Service and rates of pay were similarly structured.
The PI I'd venture a guess stands for Pay Increment
The different PI levels just because like the Public Service you don't go right to top pay (well not supposed to) at your pay (or rank) level. Probably each PI takes one year
Now with Public Service most people got to top pay when a contract signed only because contract negotiations take so long that all pay levels reached and its time to start new contract negotiations...if that makes sense
Anyhow a guess on my part
I stand to be corrected

Tom

 

 

[sidemount]

Quick look at the CBI and it reads to me that level A is just a regular Officer, B is an Officer that was a former NCM, and C is for a Commission for the Ranks Officer.

Someone please feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

 

[Monsoon]

Assuming you're asking about the "A", "B" and "C" lines, these refer to specific cases in the CBIs. In the case of 2Lt, pay level "A" is the ordinary case that applies to direct officer entrants (DEO, RESO and OCTP entry plans for the Primary Reserve). Levels "B" and "C" refer to cases relating to folks with previous NCM service who are commissioned from the ranks.

The reading gets a little fussy, but all the gory details are available online for anyone who wants to wade into them: https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/corporate/policies-standards/compensation-benefits-instructions/chapter-204-pay-policy-officers-ncms.html#sec-204-52

 

[SupersonicMax]

Quick question for the admin gurus. Let’s say someone is paid 8,000 at PI8 in their current rank. They are promoted but the rank PIs are:

PI Basic: 7,000
PI1: 7,500
PI2: 8,000
PI3: 8,500
PI4: 9,000

IAW CBI 204.04(3)b, the member would be paid 8,500 a month in their first year. Would they then progress to PI4 the next year or stagnate at PI4 for 4 years before moving to PI4?

 

[dapaterson]

Quick question for the admin gurus. Let’s say someone is paid 8,000 at PI8 in their current rank. They are promoted but the rank PIs are:

PI Basic: 7,000
PI1: 7,500
PI2: 8,000
PI3: 8,500
PI4: 9,000

IAW CBI 204.04(3)b, the member would be paid 8,500 a month in their first year. Would they then progress to PI4 the next year or stagnate at PI4 for 4 years before moving to PI4?

They should progress by IPC each year. If they are not progressing they should inform their CoC

 

[Furniture]

They should progress by IPC each year. If they are not progressing they should inform their CoC

I'm assuming it's a question regarding a promotion that involves the new Pilot pay scales, and someone being paid higher than the basic rate for the new rank.

I'm guessing the system is supposed to keep them at their current pay until the new rank's pay rates surpass their previous pay. I know that's how it works for NCMs when they commission. Commission as a Sgt S04 and you're waiting until you're a Capt to see a pay raise.

 

[Good2Golf]

I'm assuming it's a question regarding a promotion that involves the new Pilot pay scales, and someone being paid higher than the basic rate for the new rank.

Not so much the new pilot pay scales, but has always been a thing for pilot pay scales for some time. Previously just at Maj and LCol, but new scales have PI20 Capt making more than Basic Maj PLT.

 

[Furniture]

Not so much the new pilot pay scales, but has always been a thing for pilot pay scales for some time. Previously just at Maj and LCol, but new scales have PI20 Capt making more than Basic Maj PLT.

Fair, pilot pay scales have never been a concern of mine, so I wasn't really tracking things before the recent changes and all the fuss when they were rolled out.

 

[Good2Golf]

Fair, pilot pay scales have never been a concern of mine, so I wasn't really tracking things before the recent changes and all the fuss when they were rolled out.

There have probably been some overlaps in other MOSIDs, but I think specialist, not so much GSOs.

 

[SupersonicMax]

They should progress by IPC each year. If they are not progressing they should inform their CoC

Thx. Do you have a CBI reference for this? As far as I can find, CBIs only talk about rates of pay upon promotion, not pay increments.

 

[PuckChaser]

Thx. Do you have a CBI reference for this? As far as I can find, CBIs only talk about rates of pay upon promotion, not pay increments.

CBI 204.52(17) and CBI 204.52(17.1) cover pilot pay increments on promotion.

 

[SupersonicMax]

CBI 204.52(17) and CBI 204.52(17.1) cover pilot pay increments on promotion.

No, it covers pay groups within the rank of Captain. Pay groups are linked to specific qualifications to be eligible for said pay group.

 

[PuckChaser]

No, it covers pay groups within the rank of Captain. Pay groups are linked to specific qualifications to be eligible for said pay group.

You could always scroll up to 204.03 that says their rate of pay on promotion is the increment that is nearest to but at least equal to the pay rate they had the day before promotion like everyone else in the CAF...

 

[SupersonicMax]

You could always scroll up to 204.03 that says their rate of pay on promotion is the increment that is nearest to but at least equal to the pay rate they had the day before promotion like everyone else in the CAF...

Rate of pay and pay increments are two different things. Those two things are differentiated in the CBI. Your rate of pay could be equal to that of a given PI but your may still be at PI Basic for PI progression purposes.

Not sure why you are laughing at this, but Furniture’s experience seem to support this distinction in the CBI. Not sure why they would talk about pay increment in a section and then rate of pay in another if it wasn’t to purposefully distinguish between what you are paid and what PI you are at.

 

[Good2Golf]

It’s 204.04(3)(b)…but…

204.04(3) (Rate of pay on promotion) Subject to paragraphs (4) and (5), an officer or non-commissioned member shall be paid, on promotion to a higher rank, at the rate of pay established in the applicable CBI which is the greater of:

1. the basic rate of pay for the member's new rank and, if applicable, pay level and trade group; or
2. the rate of pay for the pay increment and, if applicable, pay level and trade group, for the member’s new rank that is nearest to, but at least equal to, the sum of the rate of pay the member was receiving on the day before the effective date of the promotion plus an amount equal to the rate of pay established for pay increment 1 minus pay increment Basic in the member’s new rank, but not to exceed the rate of pay for the highest pay increment in the new rank.

Unless you’re a subordinate or junior officer under certain DEO pay levels, then 204.04(4) applies, or in the case of medical officer, medical specialist or dental officer, 204.04(5) applies.

In essence, if your pre-promotion rank PI (final) is greater than any number of Pay Increments at the higher rank, then the Pay Rate is previous Pay Rate at whatever Pay Incentive you were at, plus the difference between PI 1 and PI Basic of the new higher rank. Note this is different than CBI 204.04 prior to 2022 (possibly even earlier, @dapaterson could dig into DGCB’s pay CBI archives), when the CBI directed pay to skip PI Basic and proceed to start at PI 1 and increase annually thereafter on the anniversary of the promotion effective date. This is because the pay structure previously progressed nearly linearly progressively between successive ranks, unlike now, where many MOSIDs have notably altered and ‘overlapping’ incentive structures across ranks. A Cpt PI 20 PLT earns more than a Maj PI 8. On promotion to Maj PLT, they would get Capt PI 20 + $260 (Maj PLt PI 1 - Maj PLT PI Basic). It’s not just pilots…under CBI 204.218, a max Maj LegO (PI 10) earns more than the first five LCol LegO PIs (Basic-4). 204.04(3) still applies, so on promotion, a 10-year Maj LegO would make PI 10 Maj + PI 1 LCol - PI Basic LCol LegO.

@SupersonicMax, the heart of your question is not explicitly contained in the CBIs to my knowledge, ie. Would a 20-year Capt PLT promoted to Maj start incentives at PI Basic, or at PI 9 (the next increment higher than Capt 20 + Maj 1 - Basic)? I suspect it would be the latter, but as I noted, I don’t see these such cases (in a number of non-GSO/specialist MOSIDs) being explicitly clarified as to Pay Incentive (vice Pay Rate, which IS explicitly stated) start point and progression where pre-promotion pay is higher than post promotion Basic.

 

[Navy_Pete]

Is any specific clarification required? I think everything is already in place so when you get promoted they compare your current pay to the next rank, and do some calculation so you will always get some raise (based on the delta between PI 1 and basic).

It does mean though if you've topped out the rank PI, money is a really small motivator in a lot of cases for promotion after certain ranks. I think the pilot having 20 captain PI is almost explicitly meant to retain people who just want to keep flying at captain, but in a lot of cases on the GSO even at PI 8 or whatever the pay raise for promotion is pretty minimal, and not many people are too motivated by $400/month before taxes for a massive increase in workload.

 

[Winds]

I'm assuming it's a question regarding a promotion that involves the new Pilot pay scales, and someone being paid higher than the basic rate for the new rank.

I'm guessing the system is supposed to keep them at their current pay until the new rank's pay rates surpass their previous pay. I know that's how it works for NCMs when they commission. Commission as a Sgt S04 and you're waiting until you're a Capt to see a pay raise.

In the situation you gave, the individuals would have been commissioned as Lts and topped out the Lt pay scale already. You only go up incentive levels until you reach the top-end pay for your current rank.

 

[CountDC]

How complicated we keep making things. Many moons ago a CFR continued at their pay scale and incentive until their new pay scale and incentive exceeded it. So a MCpl 4 CFR as Lt would continue to receive MCpl pay until reaching the Lt incentive that was higher. of course that was a bit of a mess too as the member had to pay attention to ensure it was done as the finance clerk might miss it even though there was a note on the pay card stating when the change was due. Guess there is no perfect system.

 

[Winds]

How complicated we keep making things. Many moons ago a CFR continued at their pay scale and incentive until their new pay scale and incentive exceeded it. So a MCpl 4 CFR as Lt would continue to receive MCpl pay until reaching the Lt incentive that was higher. of course that was a bit of a mess too as the member had to pay attention to ensure it was done as the finance clerk might miss it even though there was a note on the pay card stating when the change was due. Guess there is no perfect system.

There is no situation where a member would CFR and receive higher pay remaining on the MCpl Pay scale compared to the Lt payscale for CFRs (Scale E)... unless they are a Sar Tech.

For example, a SOF MCpl at the top of their pay scale (PI 17) has a monthly salary of $9213/month. Lt pay scale E (CFR) tops out at $9785/month (PI 10). If someone were in such a scenario where they were making Lt 10 on payscale E, they would then move to at least Capt 7, $9864/month, upon their eventual promotion to captain.

 

[CountDC]

There is no situation where a member would CFR and receive higher pay remaining on the MCpl Pay scale compared to the Lt payscale for CFRs (Scale E)... unless they are a Sar Tech.

For example, a SOF MCpl at the top of their pay scale (PI 17) has a monthly salary of $9213/month. Lt pay scale E (CFR) tops out at $9785/month (PI 10). If someone were in such a scenario where they were making Lt 10 on payscale E, they would then move to at least Capt 7, $9864/month, upon their eventual promotion to captain.

Using current pay rates he would not receive Lt pay until reaching IPC 2:

MCpl (4) 6939
Lt (E) (B) 6607, (1) 6872 (2) 7148.

In 1985 MCpl (4) 2248
Lt CFR (B) 1738. + commission incentive 39. Each IPC granted gave an additional 45 so at IPC 4 would be 1957.
But - Vested rights came into play and stipulated they would continue to receive the MCpl pay rate until their officer rate exceeded it. If I remember correctly and that MCpl was IPC 3 he did not advance to 4, remaining at the 3 level until his new rank exceeded the 3 scale.

Pay level E came into effect back in 2002 along with changes on how the pay rates were set.