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Old Naval Guard's Random Questions - Canadain Army since WW2

Old Naval Guard

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Hi, I was wondering if anyone knows about Canadain WW1,2 Reenactments in Canada :warstory: :cdn:. I been thinking about doing something along these lines for a while. I would like to join a Unit already established. If anyone knows anything please let me know Cheers Old Naval Guard
 
Google is a wonderful tool.

Canadian Military Re-Enactment Groups
http://www.canuck.freehosting.net/reenact.htm


Google - Canadian reenactors (try refining the search with locations and type of group)
 
Hi I am wondering what Canada used for an APC, before the MII3. I know that the Bren Gun Carrier was used for a while after the war and the Halftrack was used in Korea. However what as the APC in Canada or the Brigade in Germanyduring the 1950s, before the M113. Thanks in advance Old Naval Guard
 
There were Kangaroos during the second world war, and I have seen pictures suggesting there may have been some Sherman Kangaroos in limited numbers after the war.  After that, there was a thing called Bobcat that never made it past development.  The first purpose built APC we fielded was the M113.
 
After the Second World War the Canadian army did not have an APC before the M113 family was introduced. The bren gun carriers were used up to about 1957, and maybe a year or two later, as a light utility vehicles for, for example, company commanders and FOO parties. As far as I know, the half-tracks were used in specialized roles in Korea and not for dedicated troop transport.

While we tried to develop our own APC - the Bobcat - it was not a success, and the decision was made to purchase the M113A1 family. From perhaps the late 1950s, the army had infantry battalions (motorized), with 3/4 ton M37 trucks as section vehicles. In my experience, these were not used as APCs, but instead carried the troops up to (roughly) the assembly area, where they dismounted and moved forward to the FUP. (This was in accordance with our doctrine for the nuclear battlefield where the requirement to concentrate and disperse was very, very important.) There was some training at the Royal Canadian School of Infantry using turretless Sherman tanks for officer and NCO training to acquaint them with mechanized operations in conjunction with tanks.

I was in 4 CIBG HQ as a liaison officer in 1965-1967 and was the ops OPI for the APC introduction. There was a fair amount of angst originally about a lack of doctrine except for platoon and company formations. There also were difficulties because the radios in the tanks did not talk very well to the radios in APCs for technical reasons.
 
As far as I know, the half-tracks were used in specialized roles in Korea and not for dedicated troop transport.

In Korea 2 PPCLI used  the M-3 White halfrack in mortar platoon, as a weapons and ammunition carrier. Because they mounted the .50 HMG in a slip ring over the cab, they were useful in a direct fire fight too, as proven at the Battle of Kapyong. AFAIK, the remainder of the battalion marched on foot or was lifted by attached transport.

Prior to the acquisition of the M113, I believe we also examined its predececessor the M75. IIRC there is still an M75 in the armour museum collection at Borden, along with what is probably the sole surviving prototype of the Bobcat.

Cheers
 
Hi I am intrested in Pattern 51 webbing. Pictures if one has any, Its strength's and its weakness. Its use by reg army and militia. What was it like to wear. Thanks in advance Old Naval guard
 
Bobcat:

bobcat03.jpg


M-75:

id_m75_full.jpg
 
Old Naval Guard said:
Thanks Though the Bobcat didnt come out though the M 75 looks intresting. ONG
right-click the image icon and select "show image".  It will should then come through.  In the meantime, I'll scrounge another photo, hopefully.

EDIT TO ADD:
I hope this works:
sp_bobcat_title.jpg
 
I wore 51 pattern when I joined the Militia in 1974, up until it was replaced by the 64 pattern nylon equipment. The items I reme,ber being issued were:

-a waistbelt with metal buckle and retainers, with hook and grommets to adjust waist size;

-a pair of shoulder straps, worn in an "X" over the back, but coming straight down the front of the body over each breast pocket. These straps were fitted at their ends into buckles on the waistbelt. Although they widened slightly over the shoulders, there was no padding and no good way of attaching extra gear to them. They could be adjusted to fit the wearer, but we had to "snail" the loose ends into very tight, neat rolls so they didn't flop about;

-a pair of ammunition pouches worn on the chest, between the front end of each shoulder strap and the waistbelt, secured by the shoulder strap. We called these "Basic Pouches" or "Bren Gun Pouches". They were designed to carry magazines (I never tried putting a Bren mag in them---that weapon went out of service a few years before I joined). Quite often we would attach one or more extra pouches directly onto the waistbelt to carry other things like tools, grenades, extra ammo, pyrotechnics, etc. (unlike more modern systems, the 51 pattern system was not designed to let the soldier carry very much on the actual belt system). For parades we squared these out with blocks of wood, bricks or socks;

-a waterbottle, canteen cup and carrier, which hooked into the grommets in the waistbelt (usually over the right hip), but could also be secured to the ends of the shoulderstaps (I never did that);

-a messtin carrier, with a set of aluminum messtins that nested inside each other. This assembly also hooked into the web belt, normally over the left hip. Normally we shoved our eating utensils ("KFS") inside the pouch, and sometimes we carried ration items inside;

-a "small pack" which was very small and not really designed very well. It wasn't waterproof and its poor design of shoulder straps didn't allow you to carry very much with comfort. This didn't stop us from packing it full of stuff: poncho (if not carried rolled and tried on the waistbelt), rations, ammunition, shaving gear and towel, spare socks, underwear, etc. On parades this usually ha to be squared out with something: I saw a few guys use wooden frames; and

-other items including bayonet scabbard and frog (fitted over the waistbelt), pistol holster (hooked into the grommets), a compass case, map case, etc were available but I didn't see them used too often (maybe the RegF units used them more commonly). As a Militia soldier I didn't;t get a respirator so I never saw what the carrying case looked like.

The entire system was made of a "web" material that resembled canvas. It was dyed olive drab, with all metal fittings anodized black. Everything had to be treated with a green polish/preservative known as CAPO. This shit came in small metal cans, and we usually put it on with toothbrushes and rags. Once it dried, it had a dull sheen: you could also buff it for parades. CAPO-ing your webgear was  a pain: you had to strip it apart, clean it, apply CAPO, let it dry, then reassemble it all.

Overall I thought it was a terrible system: hard to look after, uncomfortable, poorly designed and incapable of carrying the increasing amount of gear being issued to soldiers. Although the 64 pattern that replaced it had its weaknesses, IMHO it was a hell of a lot better system.

Cheers
 
Hi I was wondering when the following pieces of equipment was withdrawn fro the Canadian Army. Some I know, however there seems to have been some continued use by the militia ie Helmets Mk2,3s were used in the Militia while the Cdn Army changed to the American M-1 in 1960. Did the bren gun see service  in the Militia during the 60s and when was it withdrawn from reg force use. The 25-pounder field gun did it see longer service in the Militia and if so when was it replaced in the reg force army. Webbing, how long did Pattern 37 stay in use by reg or Militia until replaced by pattern51,52 webbing Thanks in advance Old naval Guard
 
That looks like the one that used to be in Worthington Park in Borden (Maybe still there?-a previous Base Comd rearranged everything). It was a tiny little thing: I'm not sure how a fully equipped section would have used it. It had two little "turrets" (more like "cupolas") on the front deck just above the glacis plate (visible in photo). One looked like it was supposed to take a MG, and the other might have been the driver or CC. In any case these mini-turrets would have been extremely cramped.

Years ago, when we still had an Army Training Film Catalogue, there was a Bobcat demo film in it. I kick myself now that I never looked at it (Or pinched it, more like...)

Cheers
 
With minimal effort expended on google (3.35 seconds in my case), you would have found this page on another forum.

http://www.mapleleafup.org/forums/showthread.php?p=127580
 
As a young boy in the early 1960's I remember seeing a troop of Sherman tanks on the roadside in the country outside Oshawa, Ontario: I assume these belonged to the Ontario Regt (the local Res armoured unit). I fired both the the Browning Mk1919 .30 cal  MMG (7.62mm version known as the C5 ) , and the 3.5 inch rocket launcher on many occasions: AFAIK as I know the US Army used both of these in WWII.

By the way, what are you working on? A modelling project? You've posted a bunch of related questions about post-WWII Cdn Army gear.
 
The Bobcat was very cramped. I recall seeing the film and noting that it did not have a ramp, but rather a door at the rear. The cupolas, one of which mounted a machine gun, of course, meant that all the arcs could not be covered while moving. (I also think it had a front engine and rear drive, so there was a drive shaft tunnel that ran the length of the interior.)

The army also attempted to develop a 105mm SP version. When I was a Tech Asst (Arty Tech in today talk) our troop CP was deployed on the Mattawa Plain one day to produce gun data for it as part of the test program. This was short lived as the tracks broke after a few rounds. tracks.
 
Old Naval Guard said:
Hi I am intrested in Pattern 51 webbing. Pictures if one has any, Its strength's and its weakness. Its use by reg army and militia. What was it like to wear. Thanks in advance Old Naval guard

They were still issuing this webbing to recruits when I joined the militia in 1982.

As far as wearing it, I remember that if you didn't button your epaulets over the shoulder straps, they would invariably slip off your shoulders (I was reliably informed that no, it did not make me look more alluring...).
Also, no matter how tight you cinched the stuff down, if you had anything in the magazine pouches, they'd beat you half to death when you were running. 
 
Bass ackwards said:
They were still issuing this webbing to recruits when I joined the militia in 1982.

As far as wearing it, I remember that if you didn't button your epaulets over the shoulder straps, they would invariably slip off your shoulders (I was reliably informed that no, it did not make me look more alluring...).
Also, no matter how tight you cinched the stuff down, if you had anything in the magazine pouches, they'd beat you half to death when you were running.

All true. It was horrible junk. Good riddance.

Cheers
 
It seems to me that the 51 pattern was based on the 37 pattern, which was used in the Second World War. The major difference was the inclusion of eyelets on the belt and hooks on the water bottle and mess tin carriers. The eyelets were the answer to a sergeant major's prayer. Now there was more to shine and paint, along with the various keepers, buckles, etc on the belt, pouches, carriers and packs. Believe me, I know.

We would have blessed the CTS crew if even their worst effort had appeared way back then. Except maybe the combat bra.
 
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