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Non-Issue Equipment

M

Mountain_marc

Guest
Are we allowed to use non-issue gear in the CF?

Like I have a pack that would obliterate a standard CF rucksack? It's already green and black. I'd have to paint a few straps and stitching although.

Ok or no-no?

http://www.ospreypacks.com/c75.jpg
 
Black is a big no no. It's a target indicator and will get you killed. Good luck getting that monster approved for wear. In any case I wouldn't advise you use such a pack for any combat arms role.The internal frame is not the problem, that's the most comfortable type of frame. Rather, that ruck has no external pockets to compartmentalize gear and does not have a good effecient way to carry a radio, jerry can, mortar rounds, etc. I'd say don't even worry about non-issue kit in the form of webbing or rucks until you're at your unit and done all your basic and trade training. I'm not going to comment on durability of that pack as I am not acquainted with it, but if you want to use non-issue rucks and the like, buy something that's designed to mil-spec and for the soldier's job; that pack is made for civilians and civilian tasks.
 
Search this forum for a thread which tells you where you can go to get good military gear. Ive ordered a few items and have had absolutely no problem with any of them or with anyone hastling me about them. I would'nt use black gear though I'd recommend getting CADPAT.

In case your wondering, I recommend

www.wheelersonline.com (Canadian Peacekeeper, its all in canadian funds and its all good gear)
Hope this helps, good luck.
 
Just a Sig Op said:
Marc, where would you put snowshoes on it?

You remove the little pack that's in the front and you strap the snowshoes there! Done it tons of times!
 
You usually can wear SOME non-issue, Mil-spec kit, as long as you still have the issue stuff on. But forget it if you want to use that ruck, it's not designed at all for military(EDIT: You would be lucky to wear an after market mil-spec ruck also, it's one of those things that stand out to much). As mentioned there is no way you could fit a TCCCS system in side, an I couldn't get a good view of the straps, but I didn't see quick releases for them. An where is the valice strap on?

Military issue stuff guarentees everyone is at the same base level, an it _should_ be tested so the leaders know the capabilities an problems, if you carry that thing an it breaks in the field, who's going to be getting you the straps to fix it.

Yeah it would be cool if we were all special forces an could choose what ever gear we want....
 
In my honest opinion, that bag looks like a pain in the butt if you need some thing at the bottom quick. With the issue ruck it doesnt take alot of time to unpack and repack it if you are in a hurry. But that bag looks like it may take a while to get to the bottom. Nevermind that it doesnt look to easy to strap on MG barrels, shovels, pick axes and all the other fun stuff.
 
What do you do when a component breaks on it? You cant get a part from the QM can ya.

Mate stick to the issue 82 ptrn ruck or the old universal ruck C1.

Here non issue stuff like the US ALICE large are accepted as they can be got in AUSCAM. AUSCAM and OD are the only acceptable colours. As for myself, I use the CF 82 ptrn wire framed one, and its better than the ADF issue one by far, and if something gets torn or broke, you can comprimise from Aussie parts. The frame has already been welded a few times by our met-techs over the yrs.

The 82 ptrn really handles the climate and terrain well. I have full confidence in it, no worries.

Cheers,

Wes
 
You've got 3 options here...

The first:  Ditch the Osprey and use  the POS '82 pattern ruck issued to you and suffer through it...

The second:  Purchase a military oriented aftermarket pack, ie. Kifaru www.kifaru.net or something from Dropzone Tactical (Big Motherrucker) www.dropzonetactical.com or one of the packs featured at lightfighter www.lightfighter.com

The third:  Spray paint your Osprey OD green and use it.  Spray painting will not harm your pack at all and is a good and cheap way of militarizing alot of civvie non-tactical colored kit.
 
What do I do :)? Leave it in the back of the truck an take it out when we are done

All the stuff you named is Mil-Spec, an has been proven, an if you can wear that stuff then go ahead. Comfortable gear is always nice.

I think they will see(in this part of the army anyways) replacing your ruck is like me wanting to dump my webbing an use a RAV, sure it is better, but they will be p!5sed about it.





Oh an I tried to find info on the issue Auspack an the only site I could find was here, an they do not seem to like it much, going so far as saying it shouldn't be used in military service, is it really that bad?
 
Matt_Fisher said:
You've got 3 options here...

The first:   Ditch the Osprey and use   the POS '82 pattern ruck issued to you and suffer through it...

The second:   Purchase a military oriented aftermarket pack, ie. Kifaru www.kifaru.net or something from Dropzone Tactical (Big Motherrucker) www.dropzonetactical.com or one of the packs featured at lightfighter www.lightfighter.com

The third:   Spray paint your Osprey OD green and use it.   Spray painting will not harm your pack at all and is a good and cheap way of militarizing alot of civvie non-tactical colored kit.

Well, i'm not going to ditch the Osprey for one thing, i'll just keep using it for my many forays into the mountains so I'd just use the ones issued!

All left now is to quit the cushy boring government job and sign up for the fun and rewarding government job!!
 
I don't know if it's a whole lot of reservists or not responding, but I would never imagine anyone where I work getting away with anything BUT the standard military 82 or 64(?) pattern ruck.  I was at the "Centre D'Instruction du Secteur Quebec" on my PLQ this winter/spring and I did not see a single "hard core" Vandoo with anything but issued kit on.  Same goes for the units in 5 BDE. 12 years in and the only people I can see getting away with this kind of gear would be the reservists.. 

I don't suggest you try to use anything different until you get to a unit, and even then, we'll be getting the nice Clothe the Soldier gear soon anyhow.  Be patient.
 
If you want an Aussie Ruck as pictured in the above post. I have a new an unissued one here for ya. I need $95.00US foir it, and I'll bring it with me as I leave for Canada in a few days. I can mail it out from there.

PM me if you are keen.


Cheers,

Wes
 
Don't waste your money on non-issue equipment unless it is something like gloves, toque or something you can wear under issue clothing/equipment. The policy in the CF is "no non-issue equipment is to be worn", if you are going into the combat arms you will not be able to use it. This policy is strictly enforced. As for a rucksack, definately not, you will have to use what ever the issue design is, the whole point is to get use to what is given to you and how to best wear it, if it goes N/S in the field you will have to have it exchanged, as well it is all part of the uniform, think what that word means - uniformity - all the same. One of the main concerns about soldiers buying kit as well is the cost, the Generals don't want soldiers to spend their money on kit that is supplied by the military.
 
Well, as authoritative as that sounds Strat0, we know that is not true, as I am sure anyone from 3VP can attest to....
 
I can't speak for other trades, I know in the Armoured Corps it is enforced. You can get away with items that are hidden and things like gloves, etc when you are in the field.

I am a Tp WO and I have to enforce it.
 
Strat0, with all due respect to one of your experience, I must disagree with your assessment and point of view. With regards to your point about non-issue kit beyond small pieces allowed, that really depends on the unit. As Infanteer stated there is a much relaxed policy towards non-issue kit in 3VP. As for your other point regarding uniformity... Have you ever heard the expression that no battle-ready unit has ever been ready for the parade square and vice versa? That is absolutely true. I think it is ludicrous to say to troops who are professional enough to want to spend their own hard-earned money on buying kit that will improve their combat efficiency that they're not allowed to due to the demands of uniformity. In my correspondences with a Maj. who was the OC cs coy., 3VP, fought in Astan, the benchmark that was set for the troops was that as long as the boots were green or black, load bearing kit was green or CADPAT, and the troops were unmistakably Canadian they could buy and use whatever non-issue kit their heart desires (I'm sure the officers still cast critical eye over such purchases merely for the purpose of ensuring that the kit would do the job required). Uniformity is important, I do not deny that. But if a soldier wants to spend money on a good ruck for example (such as the Brit PLCE bergan or even a Kifaru EMR), I say more power to him. He is recognizing that being a professional warrior and soldier means being willing to get kit that will make him more effective where it truly counts: in the field.

There are some arguments against my point of view, and I'll deal with them here. One is that if you give troops free reign they'll buy kit that doesn't do the job. To that I respond, your job as NCOs and as leaders is to inspect your soldiers and render a judgement as to what they're using. That's also a part of pre-combat or pre-deployment inspections. Another argument is that everybody needs to be uniform. I call on anybody to explain to me how, if you still look unmistakably Canadian in the field, some lack of uniformity will hurt you or make you less able to kill the enemy. For the third point I'll use an example from my unit. When I inquired about using chest rigs at my old unit, my pl. WO stated, "well, what if your webbing is back at the assembly area and one person is asked to get out an IMP from everybody? If we told everybody to put an IMP in their buttpack he knows where to get it." Now, of course I didn't call him on it in front of the platoon, but that was a weak response at best. Such decision are not to be made at the beginning of an FTX or combat operation. Rather they are to be incorporated into the unit TACSOP. Another counter to that argument is that a troop with a different LBE/vest, etc. can always tell the runner where to find his rat or volunteer himself to get it.

Look at some of the recent combat operations. I defy you to find a single picture of troops from 3VP, the Brits, or Yanks in Astan or the latter two in Iraq where you can find two soldiers who are wearing exactly the same thing. You will see different boots, different vests/chest rigs/lbe's, assault packs, rucks, etc. etc. The guidelines as stipulated by 3VP for their combat ops in Astan make perfect sense and there is truly not a single argument that can be made against giving your soldier's such latitude beyond impacting the TACSOP for load carriage (which so few units have anyway). Being a leader is not about enforcing rules which hamper the troops under your command. Being a leader means thinking both inside and outside the box in order to give your soldiers the best advantages possible so they can do their job of killing the enemy, and coming home safe. I look forward to your response.
 
Strat0, sorry if I come off as a prick, I know you are giving us the rules established by your chain.   I was trying to point out the fact that the rule on kit is never hard and fast.   Ultimately, the decision rests in the hands of the CO; however, I would say that the SNCO's, who stay with a unit for long periods of times, set the trend in what is acceptable and unacceptable.

As tacsit pointed out, a senior officer from OP Apollo has a post that has been kicked around these boards a few times relating to the outlook of 3VP in Afghanistan.   They were pretty permissive in what troops could wear, providing they looked Canadian.   I don't see anything wrong with that.   As well, the new Canadian kit coming online is pretty damn good, so I'm finding less and less reasons to look to aftermarket suppliers.

My only advice to troops, as a grunt with a bunch of aftermarket kit, is to make sure your issued stuff is in tip top condition and ready to go.   If you find you are not allowed to used stuff you buy, then your still good to go with the stuff the Queen issued.

PS: Here is a post I gave on an earlier thread regarding personal gear.

Gucci kit (especially the big things) varies from unit to unit.   If you poke around the threads on this board, there is a really good post pertaining to 3 PPCLI's kit in operations in Afghanistan.   They were allowed to wear pretty much whatever they wanted in terms of Load Bearing Equipment, as long as it looked Canadian.   Some units are a little more anal-retentive, and small things like boots and stuff are for exercise only.   Take the time to get a feel for the unit before making a $1,000 order from Lightfighter.com.

My personal opinion.   Every soldier is going to have his or her personal preference on kit.   I don't understand the reason for Sergeant's Major going totally anal over silly things like an extra pouch on the webbing.   I have played around with the issue webbing (Which I prefer a million times to the crap-half-jacket thing) and modified it enough to get something I like.   Its green and its webbing, so what's the harm?

I would say on longer term stuff like overseas ops, if your going to bring some gucci item, try and bring the corresponding CF gear.   For example, I never wear my gortex jacket, but I brought overseas for times when it was required on parade, and the fact that the CQ wouldn't one-for-one exchange a piece of gucci kit that went south.

On the other hand, it is important to keep things within reason.   We had one unit (won't name names) show up to an ex wearing everything; black balaclavas, headbands, Woodland Pattern vests and odd coloured chest rigs.   The Platoon commander was even wearing black gaitors, despite the fact that it was rainless and sunny the entire weekend.   Needless to say these guys looked like a pack of wankers, and from what I could tell, their performance in the field wasn't much better.   There is something to be said about an overall impression of uniformity.
 
::) Thats why the Strats never get out of the boat....   ;D

Seriously on non issue eqpt it will depend on your unit, as we Pat's are pretty relaxed - while others are anal to a ridiculos degree

The '82 ruck is a POS no iff and or butts - no self respecting solider would use one for they cannto support the weight and equiptment required.   The '64 (Jump) rucks are a much more solid design - however they are not the end all be all - (thats the Kifaru EMR...)

Several of us have been using the new USMC MARPAT rucks (copy of the CFP-90) with no problems from our chain of command

As well 6 of us just got chest rigs made in CADPAT AR for the next trip...


Some other non standard stuff...

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I am not trying to rub anyones face in it - just trying to show the fact that there is usually a lot of latitutde given when items of issues kit don't meet then needs of field troops
 
I like the piggyback system on that Kifaru.  Seems quite gucci.  Any word on what's going on with the Tease the Soldier Ruck?
 
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