NCM's Not Professionals?? Split from-Supply Tech Ettiquette

[aesop081]

we are professionals after all.

According to OPME...PSE 402 leadership & Ethics....NCMs are not professionals.....

I know.....i know  :

 

[Halifax Tar]

NCMs are not professionals.....

Hahahahahaha. God love our British based system! lol Oh well just wording I suppose

 

[2 Cdo]

Actually, I find that the average supply tech today (at least where I am) doesn't display that old attitude about keeping the "good" kit for officers and friends, that seemed to be prevalent 20+years ago. (Not all old supply techs, so don't jump down my throat ) In fact, I don't recall having ANY issues with supply techs in so long it's become scary!

 

[aesop081]

Oh well just wording I suppose

I'm afraid it was not "just wording".......i could not beleive it when i did the course.

 

[Good2Golf]

Yeah, cdnaviator...not very responsible wording IMO. 

I think they were using "P"rofessional in the sense of Doctor, Lawyer, Accountant, etc... expertise and accountability through a governing body.....yada yada yada, but it perpetuates an archaich attitude that somehow NCMs are less professional than officers which is, of course, absolute BS.

G2G

 

[armyvern]

Yeah, cdnaviator...not very responsible wording IMO. 

No it's not very responsible or accurate wording at all, that may explain another phenomena:

Perhaps when the merit boards are sitting then, they strike through comments such as the following:

"MCPL Bloggins is a consumate professional who leads....."

as it must obviously (  :  ) be an untrue statement IAW

According to OPME...PSE 402 leadership & Ethics....NCMs are not professionals.....

 

 

[GO!!!]

pro·fes·sion·al

Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[pruh-fesh-uh-nl] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation   
–adjective
1. following an occupation as a means of livelihood or for gain: a professional builder. 
2. of, pertaining to, or connected with a profession: professional studies. 
3. appropriate to a profession: professional objectivity. 
4. engaged in one of the learned professions: A lawyer is a professional person. 
5. following as a business an occupation ordinarily engaged in as a pastime: a professional golfer. 
6. making a business or constant practice of something not properly to be regarded as a business: “A salesman,” he said, “is a professional optimist.” 
7. undertaken or engaged in as a means of livelihood or for gain: professional baseball. 
8. of or for a professional person or his or her place of business or work: a professional apartment; professional equipment. 
9. done by a professional; expert: professional car repairs. 
–noun 10. a person who belongs to one of the professions, esp. one of the learned professions. 
11. a person who earns a living in a sport or other occupation frequently engaged in by amateurs: a golf professional. 
12. an expert player, as of golf or tennis, serving as a teacher, consultant, performer, or contestant; pro. 
13. a person who is expert at his or her work: You can tell by her comments that this editor is a real professional. 


By most of these definitions, (4,10) most officers are not professionals either - if we define it as only the "learned" professions.

If the definition is expanded to include (1,2,3,7,8,9,11,12,13) we are all professionals, once we have reached a competent level.

I suspect that as the education/qualification/pay gap continues to close between officers and NCMs, statements like the one above will soon be just as laughable as the one in reference to an officer "guiding the thinking of his men as a professional responsibility" from the Cold War. There is very little room left today for such elitist speech or attitudes.

 

[aesop081]

I suspect that as the education/qualification/pay gap continues to close between officers and NCMs, statements like the one above will soon be just as laughable as the one in reference to an officer "guiding the thinking of his men as a professional responsibility" from the Cold War. There is very little room left today for such elitist speech or attitudes.

GO!!!,

agreed.  I was amazed that this attitude was offcial CF thinking as it is directly taught to officers coming through the OPME program.

 

[Halifax Tar]

GO!!!,

agreed.  I was amazed that this attitude was offcial CF thinking as it is directly taught to officers coming through the OPME program.

Well I always wondered why my cleaning station on ship was the officers heads and washplaces. I boggles my mind that a "professional" cant clean there own crappers. And C&POs need NCMs to look after the tiddiness of there messes on ship. In my opinon the Navy is the wort at perpetuating this elitist thought process in its officers.

Take today as an example. The wardroom is getting fixed up at the moment so the officers have to draw there rats from the main galley instead of having it served to them by the stewards. Now standin inline for food next to me was a LT(N) and behind her was oddles of NCMs. That is not professional or right in my books.

I think the Army has it right. The lower rank you are the harder life is so it seems they try to impove it at any point they can. For example officers eat last.

 

[Zertz]

I'm definately a military newbie so I suppose my opinion doesn't really matter that much, but why not give it a go.

Officers have far more important things to do than clean the mess and the shitter. When it comes to things like food and kit, sure equal treatment is in order, but look at the whole picture.

I'd much rather my superiors worried about the big stuff than having to be concerned with the small and menial details.

 

[aesop081]

I'm definately a military newbie so I suppose my opinion doesn't really matter that much, but why not give it a go.

Officers have far more important things to do than clean the mess and the shitter. When it comes to things like food and kit, sure equal treatment is in order, but look at the whole picture.

I'd much rather my superiors worried about the big stuff than having to be concerned with the small and menial details.

When you get some time in, you'll see what we mean and change your tune.......

 

[Good2Golf]

+1 to what cdnaviator said, Zertz.  You will come to understand this in due course...

As others have noted elsewhere, NCMs are Professionals in what they practice, Officers in what they do. (or both should be in their respective duties).

More importantly, professional officers should be thinking about the prioritization of their efforts:

1. The Mission
2. The Men
3. Myself

G2G

 

[Zertz]

I respect your experiences and opinions. I'll be sure to keep my ears and eyes open, perhaps I will be singing a new tune but perhaps not.

 

[17thRecceSgt]

+1 to what cdnaviator said, Zertz.  You will come to understand this in due course...

As others have noted elsewhere, NCMs are Professionals in what they practice, Officers in what they do. (or both should be in their respective duties).

More importantly, professional officers should be thinking about the prioritization of their efforts:

1. The Mission
2. The Men
3. Myself

G2G

Funny that I was taught "the 3 M's" by an old RSM of mine...not an officer.  ;D

 

[old man neri]

I don't want to take sides or make an opinion but I just want to point this out.

The original quote has the word 'professionals', this is a noun.

People after that, including that dictionary definition, seem to be using the work 'professional' in the adjective sense.

There are some differences when one uses it as an adjective and when one uses it as a noun. For example, one can be professional without being a professional.

Perhaps this can shed some light or clarity onto this discussion.

Cheers.

 

[armyvern]

Ooops, Neri....Spell check that last post!!! 

 

[paracowboy]

I brought up point 7 myself in a thread a few months back to a young troopie becoming a signaller.

Sometimes, the Signaller, Driver, and Wpns Det Comd have to lay out the Officer's sleeping bag, cook his meal, grip him by the scruff, and force him to eat then sleep.



edit: hmm, apparently "point" only has one "i" in it now. When did that happen?

 

[Good2Golf]

I brought up poiint 7 myself in a thread a few months back to a young troopie becoming a signaller.

Sometimes, the Signaller, Driver, and Wpns Det Comd have to lay out the Officer's sleeping bag, cook his meal, grip him by the scruff, and force him to eat then sleep.

+1

My "self" as Pri 3 was for stuff above and beyond what I'd need to be competent in what I do.  I think most of us have seen that even in operations, there are little opportunities to go a bit beyond just "recharging the batteries".  When such opps present themselves, the men get the benefit of it first, then me.

Keep in mind, that just because somethings are ranked as Pri 1, 2 then 3, does not necessarily mean that they should occur sequentially.  I should be able to look after 3 whilst still focusing on 1 and making sure 2 is looked after.  Of course, having a switched on NCM to be able to, through actions or words, tweak me if I'm "having a moment" (i.e. remind me that I really should be getting that 16 hrs crew rest per 1 CAD orders ) is all the more proof that NCMs are just as professional as officers in their own right.

Cheers,
G2G

 

[geo]

Is an NCO a professional?
Is an Officer a gentleman?

Questions, questions, questions....... We are all members of the profession of arms
we all expect our troops to act and behave in a professional manner.  While I may have oversimplified things a bit..... here goes!

Is an Ocdt a Pro? Nope
Is a 2Lt a Pro? Nope
Is a Lt a Pro? Hmmm....not yet
Is a Capt a Pro?Hmmmm.... we're getting warm - some are some aren`t

Is a Pte a Pro? Nope
Is a Cpl a Pro? He's developing an expertise in his field - he's getting there
Is a Mcpl a Pro? Some are techs - experts in their field (pro) OR he's supervising troops in the execution of their duties - If he isn't, he's getting close
Is a Sgt a Pro? He's the one that the Lt & Capt go to see to get the job done.  If he wasn't a pro,  the Lt & Capt would be in big trouble
Is a WO a Pro?  Who does the Sgt go see when he needs help in getting things done?

 

[x-zipperhead]

I brought up poiint 7 myself in a thread a few months back to a young troopie becoming a signaller.

Sometimes, the Signaller, Driver, and Wpns Det Comd have to lay out the Officer's sleeping bag, cook his meal, grip him by the scruff, and force him to eat then sleep.

I remember a great Troop Warrant when I was in the Armour Corps who used this premise to guage troop morale and what kind of a job he and the LT were doing with the troop.  It went like this;

Once in the hide or harbour for the night the troop leader would immediately leave the troop to go get orders at SHQ.  When he came back, if;

1.  His sleeping bag was all laid out by his crew and a hot meal waiting for him - morale was good, he's doing things right.

2.  His sleeping gear was still stowed on the tank and a cold IMP waiting for him on the fender - not bad, but  room for improvement.

3.  His sleeping bag was in a ditch somewhere 2 km outside the hide and no meal in sight - some serious issues with troop morale.

This WO was a true professional and influenced quite a few extremely professional officers.