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Member on IR making MTEC claims

Jarnhamar

Army.ca Myth
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Question.
Say a Reg force member is posted to a reserve unit and is receiving IR.
Can member claim a lunch (breakfast, supper etc..) if he goes on a day tasking outside of the local area?
Or inside the local area if member is tasked to something over lunch?
 
Grimaldus said:
Question.
Say a Reg force member is posted to a reserve unit and is receiving IR.
Can member claim a lunch (breakfast, supper etc..) if he goes on a day tasking outside of the local area?
Or inside the local area if member is tasked to something over lunch?

Pretty sure they can.  On IR, meals are not paid for in full.
 
To my understanding:

The individual claiming SE may claim per the normal rules (in local area: up to meal limit with receipt; outside of local area: meal amount without receipt), however, their claim for SE for the period must have those meals removed - they cannot claim twice for the same meal.
 
dapaterson said:
To my understanding:

The individual claiming SE may claim per the normal rules (in local area: up to meal limit with receipt; outside of local area: meal amount without receipt), however, their claim for SE for the period must have those meals removed - they cannot claim twice for the same meal.

I wonder how you remove a percentage of a percentage.......  ???
 
Here is what the CFTDI says for inside the HQ area:

5.10 Meals

(1) Meal expenses incurred within the HQ area shall not normally be reimbursed.  Each unit must provide a lunch break approximately midway through the regular work period or shift to enable each member to obtain a meal at their own expense.

(2) If the CO considers meal expenses during normal working hours as reasonable and justifiable, a member on TD within the HQ area is entitled to be reimbursed actual out-of-pocket expenses, based on receipts, up to the limit of the applicable meal allowance in Appendix C of the following Treasury Board website, http://www.tbs-sct.gc.ca/pubs_pol/hrpubs/TBM_113/td-dv_e.asp, provisions of CFAO 36-14 still apply.  The following are examples of when meal expenses may be reimbursed IAW the meal hours listed at Section 6.10 paras 2 and 3:

a) when members are required to work through normal meal hours as approved by their supervisor (this primarily refers to lunches, however, breakfast and dinner may apply on rare occasions).  A reasonably delayed meal hour does not create an entitlement to a meal at Crown expense;

b) when members are required to attend conferences, seminars, training sessions, meetings or public hearings during the weekend or holidays, where meals were not provided by a third party;

c) when  members are required to attend formal full-day conferences, seminars, training sessions, meetings or hearings, and meals are a required part of the proceedings;

d) when members are on ration strength but because of an absence on authorized duty  are unable to take a meal at the mess and have not been provided with a box lunch; or

e) when members are required to work outside the primary work place, and their participation in an intensive task force or committee work is enhanced by keeping members together over a normal meal period.



And for outside the HQ area:

6.10 Meals

(1) A member is entitled to be reimbursed the applicable meal allowance rates set out in Appendix C of the following Treasury Board website, http://www.tbs-sct.gc.ca/pubs_pol/hrpubs/TBM_113/td-dv_e.asp, for each breakfast, lunch and dinner while on TD.  A meal allowance shall not be paid to a member with respect to a meal that is provided by a third party or other government agency.  Members shall only claim for those meals that they were not provided.

(2) A member is entitled to be reimbursed the applicable meal allowance for each breakfast, lunch and dinner provided that:

a) for breakfast, the member must depart from home on duty travel before 0630 hrs;

b) for lunch, the member must be on travel status between 1130 hrs and 1300 hrs; and

c) for dinner, the member must arrive at home after 1800 hrs.

(3) A member who is on duty between 1900 hours and 0730 hours for four hours or greater is entitled to be reimbursed, with receipts, actual and reasonable expenses not exceeding the amount payable for a lunch, for a single night meal, when the CO considers that the purchase of the meal was necessary to ensure the proper performance of the duty.

(4) Reimbursement of meals for shift workers shall be based on the meal sequence of breakfast, lunch and dinner in relation to the commencement of the CF member’s shift.


In short, the answer is yes, but there are caveats depending on the circumstances.  Note that there is no mention of whether the member is on IR or not (i.e. no exclusion) and if this is an occasional issue, as a comptroller, I wouldn't bother trying to adjust SE.  Keep in mind that SE assumes you are eating at home (well, second home in fact) and/or brown-bagging it.  This is not the case when on travel status.  However, if this is a regular occurance, then I would look at it differently.
 
The SE Claim does get adjusted and it is a simple one for the SE Clerk to do.  Not to inform the clerk of the needed adjustment is fraud.  The Comptroller does not have the authority to bypass adjusting the SE. Double paying a member for a meal is not allowed. 
 
CountDC said:
The SE Claim does get adjusted and it is a simple one for the SE Clerk to do.  Not to inform the clerk of the needed adjustment is fraud.  The Comptroller does not have the authority to bypass adjusting the SE. Double paying a member for a meal is not allowed.

Where does it say that?  I've just checked both the CFTDI and CBI 209.997 (Separation Expense) and neither of them mention anything about adjusting SE for a period of TD.  Remember also that I am only talking about a one-off situation (i.e. one meal), not a longer TD involving multiple meals.  The staff effort to adjust SE for a few cents isn't worth it.  We shouldn't be spending dollars to chase nickels.  Comptrollers do have some leeway to apply common sense.
 
Pusser said:
Where does it say that?  I've just checked both the CFTDI and CBI 209.997 (Separation Expense) and neither of them mention anything about adjusting SE for a period of TD.  Remember also that I am only talking about a one-off situation (i.e. one meal), not a longer TD involving multiple meals.  The staff effort to adjust SE for a few cents isn't worth it.  We shouldn't be spending dollars to chase nickels.  Comptrollers do have some leeway to apply common sense.

Not if you follow the FAA and regulations to the letter.  It does lead to absurd  situations - in the early 90s, my Reserve unit released a soldier after their first summer of training.  Three months later, we got a list of folks owing money to the crown - and he was on it, owing 7 cents, so his release was held up.  I took the list, red-circled all those amounts under $1.00, and added a handwritten note recommending write-off, as it would be uneconomical to pursue them.  Total recommend write-off: Under $10.00.

A month later, we got back the same list - but now with a hastener, as they were 30 days later.  Assuming my poor handwriting was to blame, I wrote a cover memo with essentially the same details, and sent it off.

A month later, another letter.  These amounts were not 60 days late!  The World Would End Soon if this problem was not resolved.

So I took a sheet of paper.  Wrote the miserable miscreant's service number on it.  Taped on seven pennies.  Sent it back.

A week later: an official Government of Canada receipt was in my possession for seven cents.  Buddy's release could proceed.
 
dapaterson said:
Not if you follow the FAA and regulations to the letter.  It does lead to absurd  situations - in the early 90s, my Reserve unit released a soldier after their first summer of training.  Three months later, we got a list of folks owing money to the crown - and he was on it, owing 7 cents, so his release was held up.  I took the list, red-circled all those amounts under $1.00, and added a handwritten note recommending write-off, as it would be uneconomical to pursue them.  Total recommend write-off: Under $10.00.

A month later, we got back the same list - but now with a hastener, as they were 30 days later.  Assuming my poor handwriting was to blame, I wrote a cover memo with essentially the same details, and sent it off.

A month later, another letter.  These amounts were not 60 days late!  The World Would End Soon if this problem was not resolved.

So I took a sheet of paper.  Wrote the miserable miscreant's service number on it.  Taped on seven pennies.  Sent it back.

A week later: an official Government of Canada receipt was in my possession for seven cents.  Buddy's release could proceed.

Granted, but what I'm saying is not quite the same thing.  You're right in arguing that it's nigh on impossible to write off any sum of money that has gone missing, but not it's not completely impossible.  You just have to prove that it's uncollectible.  I would have been inclined to fork over seven cents out of my own pocket as well. :nod:

But I'm not talking about writing anything off.  What I am saying is that herein lies a grey area where I would exercise some discretion (under very limited circumstances) and pay a member for a single meal on an MTEC without adjusting the SE.  I have always tried to practice that when dealing in grey areas, I err on the side of the member. There is no fraud here and I'm not hiding anything. 
 
Perhaps if I added more detail.

Example;
I am a regular force member from CFB Toronto. I take an RSS posting in Belleville.  I have been receiving IR for the last year as I still have a house and family in Toronto.  Through out the year I am tasked at various times to drive to different cities/bases/areas for different reasons of duty. Bringing members to a course. Dropping off mail. Doing a recruiting stand. Going on a 1 day course somewhere.

Am I allowed to put in meal claims for the times that I miss meals (while receiving IR) the same way a class A reservist is able to put in mtec claims for the same meals? Not a single meal claim but probably a few a month.
 
Grimaldus said:
Perhaps if I added more detail.

Example;
I am a regular force member from CFB Toronto. I take an RSS posting in Belleville.  I have been receiving IR for the last year as I still have a house and family in Toronto.  Through out the year I am tasked at various times to drive to different cities/bases/areas for different reasons of duty. Bringing members to a course. Dropping off mail. Doing a recruiting stand. Going on a 1 day course somewhere.

Am I allowed to put in meal claims for the times that I miss meals (while receiving IR) the same way a class A reservist is able to put in mtec claims for the same meals? Not a single meal claim but probably a few a month.

Yes and as these are all day trips (I presume) then an MTEC would be the appropriate means to do this.  With regard to my previous comments, because of the frequency that you do this, I would also recommend you report these trips to the SE clerk who can make the appropriate adjustments there (a copy of the MTEC in fact gives him/her a good supporting document to hold on file).  Don't worry, full reimbursement for meals on the MTEC will be higher than the 35% you get through SE.
 
dapaterson said:
Not if you follow the FAA and regulations to the letter.  It does lead to absurd  situations - in the early 90s, my Reserve unit released a soldier after their first summer of training.  Three months later, we got a list of folks owing money to the crown - and he was on it, owing 7 cents, so his release was held up.  I took the list, red-circled all those amounts under $1.00, and added a handwritten note recommending write-off, as it would be uneconomical to pursue them.  Total recommend write-off: Under $10.00.

A month later, we got back the same list - but now with a hastener, as they were 30 days later.  Assuming my poor handwriting was to blame, I wrote a cover memo with essentially the same details, and sent it off.

A month later, another letter.  These amounts were not 60 days late!  The World Would End Soon if this problem was not resolved.

So I took a sheet of paper.  Wrote the miserable miscreant's service number on it.  Taped on seven pennies.  Sent it back.

A week later: an official Government of Canada receipt was in my possession for seven cents.  Buddy's release could proceed.

Part of you *must* have been tempted to have sent them a nickel, then a month later angrily written demanding a check be cut in return to reimburse the extra three cents that were inadvertently credited?
 
Brihard said:
Part of you *must* have been tempted to have sent them a nickel, then a month later angrily written demanding a check be cut in return to reimburse the extra three cents that were inadvertently credited?

[war story]

Well, next time I saw those folks in person was on a PD day (Saturday) after a mess dinner in my unit (Friday night drifting to Saturday morning - I got home around 4:30am, and had to be up before 6 to get to the meeting).  I decided to stay on "receive" for the AM; once the PM arrived and I was no longer drunk, just hung over, I stayed on receive.  (Per the Cpl who accompanied a friend of mine to that meeting, "That Lt doesn't look very good this morning.")  That night we met at the Bde HQ mess, where one of the senior Fin Clks (yes, grandkids, once upon a time the CF had real, honest to goodness Finance clerks, none of this RMS nonsense) demonstrated to everyone how to inflate a condom, pulled over your head to just below your nose, by exhaling through your nose, and kept going until it burst.

It hardly seemed appropriate to ask about 7 cents at that point; I was more curious as to why she apparently kept a large supply of condoms ready at her desk...

[/war story]
 
Your SE/IR Clerk won't care.  They only care if you receive incidentals, which is the cover-all for any random expense you may incur at home while away.  Since you're not at home, you're not entitled to incidentals, thus you receive SE.

The MTEC is a whole different beast that is simply reimbursing you for meals consumed.  You're still separated from your HG&E/dependents and are entitled to be compensated for it.
 
PMedMoe said:
I wonder how you remove a percentage of a percentage.......  ???

If you are on IR and go on TD for a day ... you must report to your OR those days you were on TD and they will be deducted from your IR claim.

IE: 30 days in the month = 30 days total - 2 days abated per month (in lieu of leave) - 1 days TD that month (day mbr filed MTEC) = IR SE rate at 27 days for that month.

Else, it's fraud. The SE for IR members does reimburse for meal costs at a partial rate.
 
ArmyVern said:
If you are on IR and go on TD for a day ... you must report to your OR those days you were on TD and they will be deducted from your IR claim.

IE: 30 days in the month = 30 days total - 2 days abated per month (in lieu of leave) - 1 days TD that month (day mbr filed MTEC) = IR SE rate at 27 days for that month.

Else, it's fraud. The SE for IR members does reimburse for meal costs at a partial rate.

I realize that.  The question was for one meal on an MTEC.  Not for a day of TD. 
 
does this not wring a bell with anyone:

CERTIFIED THAT THE ITEMS CLAIMED HEREIN HAVE NOT BEEN CLAIMED PREVIOUSLY AND THAT THE DETAILS ARE AS STATED.

It is the statement you are signing when you sign your CF52 for SE that includes meals.  This means you are saying you have not claimed these meals already not even on an MTEC.

This statement or at least a similar one is on all claims including the MTEC so if you have signed the CF52 and the MTEC stating the same thing while claiming the meal on both then you have committed fraud. How serious can this be?  Well sometimes they take claim fraud very seriously - just ask the Chief in Halifax that lost rank and paid a few k fine for $5 taxis.  Worth the risk?

Basic rule - you can only claim things once and as a former SE/IR clerk I did care and did adjust the claims accordingly and no it didn't cost dollars for me to adjust the claim.  It takes mere minutes to adjust an SE/IR claim when it is a regular part of your job.

Best thing to do - if you are really worried about the money then figure out which one is going to pay you the few extra dollars and claim that one. Myself I would save the hassle and stick with the SE/IR claim.
 
I know this is not related to this topic, but similar to it. If anyone knows the answer please respond.

I have a friend who is a civy who plays with a military band. He was tasked to play at an event which was out of town and was for several days. The military members of this unit who were tasked were allowed to claim TD, no questions asked. Is the civy members who were tasked to this same event and who were staying in the same accommodations etc as the military members, are they allowed to claim for their meals and expenses as well? Is there any president for this? He was allowed before to claim these expenses, however for some reason the civys are being told this time around that they are not eligible to do so. I don't think this is fair, but I don't know what the rule is. Hopefully someone out there can direct me.
Thanks!
 
TD is for CF members and publioc servants who travel.

For individuals accompanying the CF (including civilians accompanying bands) they should be under a contract for services that dictates what is covered.

 
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