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Liberal Minority Government 2019 - ????

Jarnhamar

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I rent, so I can't get solar panels. I cannot reasonably take public transit, so a bus pass does me no good. The place I rent doesn't support electric vehicles. What green stuff can a renter and personal vehicle user get with a green account?

I'll get a bike. Then sell the bike.
Sure, if you have a VAC claim you can rip off Soldier On for $1000 using this gimmick too.

Have you bought and sold boots through the 'bootforgen'?
 

RangerRay

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From what I’ve seen, both plans aren’t great. How is this “account” supposed to be managed? How much will it cost? Seems like more bureaucracy to me.

As for the current plan, even with the rebate and being solidly middle class, I can’t afford a new furnace that would reduce what I pay in carbon tax, or a hybrid. Like government revenue, that rebate just ends up in my “general revenues”. I imagine the situation is the same for most folks.
 

Altair

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Sure, if you have a VAC claim you can rip off Soldier On for $1000 using this gimmick too.

Have you bought and sold boots through the 'bootforgen'?
Nope.

Haven't bought boots yet.

And when I do, I'll likely wear them.

As things stand, I currently get money back, that I can use on anything I want.

Under the CPC plan, I get a green account which I can use on stuff like green cars, new greener furnace, bus passes, solar panels, bicycles. I hope more stuff is added to a comprehensive list, but stuff for houses I cannot use because I rent, bus passes are not reasonable, and I already have a bicycle.

So that green account gets nice and fat, and I cannot use the money, as opposed to getting money back now and having the freedom to buy burgers.

So if I need to get a bike, and sell it on amazon, I'll do that, pocket the money, and buy burgers.
 

Fishbone Jones

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How much has trudeau given us back? His carbon tax was pushed as revenue neutral. The money was supposed to be returned to the tax payer. I've only seen a few bucks a month 'energy rebate' on my hydro bill, which I think is a provincial initiative anyway. Not even close to what was promised. Now the CPC has a plan, which will make trudeau change one of his biggest attack points.

'The Conservatives don't believe in climate change. They have no plan.'

It is the liberals who don't have one now. Taking your money, putting it into the general account and then handing it out around the world except in Canada, is not a plan.

Is the CPC Climate Plan perfect? Hell no, but it's way ahead of the just plain theft and lies of the liberals.

Being strident, unbending, ancient, unchanging and smug has hurt the CPC. There's lots of one issue voters out there. There are lots, who vote on nothing but the environment. They always went with the LPC, because they APPEARED to be interested also. Now, they have a choice. Those who make the environment their main voting reason, but are tired of the smoke and mirrors of the grits, may come over to the CPC now. We'll have to wait for the election, not the polls, to see if was an effective strategy. I think it will be. Especially, if I can use it to purchase big ticket items for my home.
 

Altair

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I will agree that this is the best plan for the environment that the CPC has ever come up with.

It doesn't do anything for me, but I can see those who own a home getting some use out of it.

I do hope it's not a screw the poor type plan like the old tax credits for kids the CPC used to have, but on a whole, much better than anything they previously came up with.

Imagine 2 years ago every party in the HOC supporting a carbon tax. Wild.
 

Eaglelord17

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If you actually want to help the environment you would be banning goods that are made without pollution controls (or similar pollution controls as us) from entering the country. Make it illegal to export goods or resources to other countries that will turn those into goods with no pollution controls, and make it so companies have to manufacture goods which have a long life span as well as parts for long term maintenance.

We already have the technology needed. Bring back trolley cars instead of busses. Increase spending on trains and railways well reducing it on the highways. We could use green initiatives to create a economic boom in this country. Instead we are pretending that reducing 'carbon' in Canada is going to actually stop global warming when we are still buying these products from other countries with no controls which are then shipped across the oceans causing a ton of emissions in that process as well.

All the policies the political parties are proposing are jokes made to appease people and get votes rather than actually trying to solve this problem.
 

Loachman

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So we can stop the denial part of climate change.
Climate change is real.

We will be able to control it when we can put a thermostat on the sun.

Until then, natural solar activity cycles will continue to drive climate change as they have for millions of years.
 

mariomike

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For reference to the discussion,

148 pages.
 

Weinie

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Climate change is real.

We will be able to control it when we can put a thermostat on the sun.

Until then, natural solar activity cycles will continue to drive climate change as they have for millions billions of years.
Slight update.
 

Loachman

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What's three places of decimal before we were even around?
 

Brad Sallows

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it's science

Science is a method of inquiry. We use it to explain the way things are. It can not tell us how things ought to be.

Computer simulations and mathematical approximations do not tell us the way things are; they are tools for helping to decide what questions to ask and where to look for answers.

Carbon taxes and other such schemes can be summarized with one "pro" and one "con".

Pro: mitigating externalities.
Con: mitigating externalities has opportunity costs.
 

Altair

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I mean, people can talk about it being science or not science, but I think the more pertinent point is how every single party in the HOC now supports some form of a carbon tax.

The only party of note that doesn't is the PPC, and I don't see all the non carbon taxers flocking to them for some reason.

The discussion, politically, is over. Much like abortion.
 

reveng

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and anyone who claims that science is settled knows nothing about science.
Exactly. Certain people have figured out certain things throughout history. Some of them are quite impressive. In the grand scheme of things however, we know very little as a species. And the average person knows basically nothing.

We are terrible stewards of this planet. I think many of us can agree on that. Taxes aren't going to solve the issue. At best they are a low hanging fruit solution for the masses.
 
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Remius

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and anyone who claims that science is settled knows nothing about science.
Your argument is the same that flat earthers, anti vaccers and creationists use. I lump climate change deniers in the same Middle Ages style of thinking.
 

reveng

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Your argument is the same that flat earthers, anti vaccers and creationists use. I lump climate change deniers in the same Middle Ages style of thinking.
Doesn't Flat Earth originate in antiquated science? Something that was settled, until it wasn't?
 

Loachman

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Erin O'Toole faces backlash from 'surprised and frustrated' Conservatives over carbon pricing plan
Critics argue O'Toole has yet again abruptly contradicted his own leadership campaign, and is now playing word games about what constitutes a 'carbon tax'
Brian Platt Apr 17, 2021

OTTAWA - When Conservative leader Erin O’Toole announced on Thursday that his party will include a carbon price on consumer fuels as part of their election platform, internal backlash was inevitable.

Scrapping “Trudeau’s carbon tax” is a core promise the Conservative Party has made to its supporters for years. O’Toole won the Conservative leadership race last year while repeatedly promising to get rid of it, even signing a pledge that he would never introduce a carbon tax of his own.

Now, he’s committed the party to putting a carbon levy on fuel, while insisting it can’t be called a tax because the money doesn’t go into government accounts. The blowback was bound to happen; the big question is how O’Toole manages the dissent from the party’s caucus and grassroots, and whether it grows more organized or gradually fades away.

More at link.

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Erin O’Toole Is Treating Canadian Conservatives with Undisguised Contempt
Spencer Fernando April 18, 2021

When someone lies to you over and over and over again, so blatantly, without even pretending to tell the truth, and then expects you to go along with it, what does that person think of you?

Do they respect you?

No.

Do they think you are intelligent?

No.

Do they see you as an equal, as a peer?

No.

Instead, they are looking at you with contempt.

They see you as unworthy of the truth.

They see you as someone who deserves only lies.

And they see you as someone who is so weak that you’ll let them keep on lying to you.

Worst of all, when that person leads a political party, not only do they expect you to allow yourself to be lied to, but they then demand that you also volunteer, donate, and advocate for that party.

Contempt for Conservatives

Let me ask you this question:

What would have happened if Erin O’Toole said this during the CPC Leadership campaign?

“After years of campaigning against the carbon tax, and signing pledges not to bring in any consumer carbon tax, I will introduce a consumer carbon tax that takes your money and puts it into an account you can only use for government-approved ‘green purchases.’ And I won’t share the plan with most of my Caucus, and it will instead be leaked to CBC ahead of time. Then, to justify my plan, I’ll claim it’s a ‘levy, not a tax,’ using the exact same arguments both Justin Trudeau and Rachel Notley used when they introduced their carbon tax plans.”

You know what would have happened if O’Toole said this during the CPC race.

He would have finished a distant fourth, coming in behind Leslyn Lewis, Peter MacKay, and Derek Sloan.

He would have been laughed off the stage.

But at least it would have been honest.

At least he would have been telling voters the truth.

At least he would have shown enough respect to Canadian Conservatives to be upfront about what he planned to do, and let people decide whether they supported him based on who he actually was.

But that’s not what O’Toole did.

More at link.
 

Loachman

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I lump climate change deniers in the same Middle Ages style of thinking.

Climate change is real. It has been occurring since well before SUVs were invented.

Blaming it on carbon dioxide, however, is foolish.

Carbon dioxide gets the blame because nobody has yet to figure out a way to tax sunlight.

This is not science. It is the new religion, against which few dare speak lest they be called heretic and be de-personed and cast out from their careers. It is a money-making and prestige-garnering scam for its high priests and priestesses, be they "scientists", politicians, celebrities, or journalists. Note that many, while causing as much fear as they can about rising sea levels, still keep buying expensive ocean-front properties, multiple large houses with huge "carbon footprints", and yachts while jetting to one massive save-the-planet conference in a luxurious resort after another. If they believed their own crap, they wouldn't be doing that, now, would they?

Have you not noted that not a single one of the warmistas' predictions of doom over the past several decades has come to pass? New York is not under thirty feet of water, nor have any islands been submerged, nor are those things likely to happen. They simply keep repeating the same crap every few years after each has been forgotten and suck in more gullible people who then beg to be taxed more to save them.

Alarmists have a 100% rate of failed predictions. One hundred percent.

Weather is incredibly complex. Despite all of our knowledge of weather and computer modelling, aviation forecasts are issued every six hours because they cannot be reasonably presumed to be accurate enough any further out.

Yet others claim to be able to predict ten, twenty, fifty, one hundred years out.

It is the biggest fraud in the history of manpeoplekind.
 
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