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Is one DART enough?

edadian

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With earthquakes in Pakistan and Afghanistan, hurricanes hitting the Caribbean, US and central America I am wondering is one DART enough?

Should we create a reserve DART for Canada only and have a few for several disasters?

Wilma is heading towards us and no international help is getting to El Salvador and Guatemala. The mudslides caused by hurricane Stan resulted in terrible conditions and DART could be helping the victims?
 
would be great to see more then one DART group.  But we can barely afford the one we got now.  no airlift,  no full time troops for it to work up or train with or not enough full time troops. lack of equipment for them take with them. water units, not sure more will be sold tot he forces after a lawsuit over who can repair it, ( trade secrets thing).
required space to hold equipment.
more doctors, nurses and medics needed, not to forget the engineers,  secuirty platoon or company.
and how many  more millions to fund it?

would be nice, but i think we should be happy  we have one team  on paper
 
I think we could easily activate another DART styled unit, however, we would have to approach it differently.  The DART unit we currently have is quite expensive to operate and maintain, however, I don't believe this really needs to be the case.

Lets look at what I think is a cost effective approach to supporting a "foreign aid specialized unit".

1.  Cost of Storage for Equipment:  Minimal.  Build a few buildings at CFB Trenton specifically designated to this unit, so all of the equipment is right there when we need it.  Cost of maintaining those buildings?  Just the cost of power  (Minimal, since the buildings won't be used particularily often) and heating.

2.  Acquisition of Equipment:  Minimal.  A few dozen first aid kits.  A few dozen trauma bags.  Replacement materials for the items in the trauma bags, kept seperately.  6 ROWPU's  (2 backups, I think the most we've ever deployed is 4 - correct me if I am wrong.)  Communications equipment.  A few tents of various sizes and styles.  A few misc. machines for laundry, cooking, storing food, etc, etc.

3.  Personnel:  Minimal.  Have various personnel posted with their own units, designated as members of this unit also.  They will train and be employed as members of their given unit, whether it is infantry, medical, logistics, etc, etc.  However, when the DART-styled unit is activated to respond to a natural disaster, these designated personnel are ready to go.  This way, personnel costs are kept to a minimum since the personnel already exist, and are continually training in their home units.  We don't lack the personnel to man this unit, since this unit would not be manned on a full time basis, nor do we lack the personnel in the required trades to operate this unit.


A few things:

-  Transport is always going to be a problem, so no point in even pointing it out.  Until the CF procures some kind of heavy lift aircraft, we're going to relay on the good ol' Ukranians to do our heavy lifting for us - or the USAF.

-  Costs would be kept to a minimum, since this unit would not be manned full time.  Its equipment would be stored in seperate, designated buildings at CFB Trenton, ready for rapid deployment.  Personnel would be designated as "DART" personnel, but would train and be employed by their respective units.  Then, when "DART" gets the call - these folks pack up and leave.  Keeps costs down, while still maintaining proficient levels of training.

-  I understand the above may run into problems, if a unit is deployed or otherwise unavailable for deployment.  For this reason, we could compensate for it be designating more than the required amount of personnel as DART personnel.  Then, if some personnel are not available for deployment  (Perhaps because they are already deployed, or otherwise occupied) - there is still sufficient personnel to deploy the unit.

-  Equipment wouldn't be a problem, look at the equipment DART brings with them now.  A few jeeps, a few trucks, a few ROWPU's, as well as their required equipment for laundry, cooking, storing food, etc, etc.  The most expensive acquisition  (And one of the only acquisitions I think worth mentioning) would be additional ROWPU units.  I know the company (Can't remember the name) filed a lawsuit against the CF for maintenence contracts, however, this is not the only company out there that makes ROWPU units.  I don't know what ever came of the lawsuit, but I'm pretty sure we could find another company to provide us with ROWPU units pretty easily.

** For those of you who are unfamiliar with my background, I served in the Canadian Forces for close to 4yrs.  I was a reserve MCpl, in the Calgary area.  However, I would like to keep my unit a secret due to the fact that other members of that unit post on this site, some of which I did not get along with at all.  I now work as a paramedic for Calgary EMS, providing reserve support for our TEMS platoon in conjunction with the Calgary Police Service.  I have travelled many parts of the Middle-East in my civilian life with my wife, including Pakistan, several former provinces of the USSR, Mongolia, UAE, and Iran. **
 
edadian said:
With earthquakes in Pakistan and Afghanistan, hurricanes hitting the Caribbean, US and central America I am wondering is one DART enough?

Should we create a reserve DART for Canada only and have a few for several disasters?

Wilma is heading towards us and no international help is getting to El Salvador and Guatemala. The mudslides caused by hurricane Stan resulted in terrible conditions and DART could be helping the victims?

I think you may have been watching "the THUNDERBIRDS" too much.   Are you suggesting that Canada become the WORLD PARAMEDIC and respond to all manmade and Natural Disasters?

CBH99

If you look at DART, you will find that most of what you are suggesting, minus the extra ROPU, is exactly how DART is set up already.
 
Is one DART enough - no
Can the CF afford additional DART capability - no

Bottom line - it all depends what the people and the Governments of this country want.  I do not necessarily see an expanded DART capability being compatable with (the traditional) CF warfighting/peacekeeping role.
 
First thing I thought of was the Thunderbirds too.  Must be an age thing.  Lets stick to one DART and help where we can.
 
If you build a Canada only dart, could you not transport the stuff by truck or rail?  Driving in shifts can get anything, anywhere in less than 5 days.
 
When you get down to it there is, in every Brigade, the makings of a DART.
Engineer Services,
Field Hospital,
Service Battalion
with a lot of able bodied arms from Infantry, Armd & Arty units...

are they in a position to move as fast as the DART team - no, but fast enough to get going for any domestic emergency, as has been proven by our response to floods, ice storms, forest fires and airliner crashes....

It ain't perfect but it's better than nothing I guess
 
Maybe the whole Thunderbirds thing was a bit before my time, not entirely sure what you mean by that.  I do know the basis for the show though, or so I thought I did.

How is a few buildings at CFB Trenton, stockpiled with DART supplies, and manned part-time....anything like the Thunderbirds?
 
the buildlings and Trenton are not like Thunderbirds


Running around to save the World...  - Very much like Thunderbirds
 
I tried to make this point in another post, but essentially the same capabilities that the "DART" has, should exist within each of the three Brigades (PPCLI, RCR, Vandoos),,, put each of the Brigade Combat Service Support Element into a Readiness - Rotation (DART),   Dual hat the CSS, because everything the CSS needs to support the Brigade in Combat, the same capabilities is needed of the DART to support a Civil Relief Operation, and in theory you could deploy three simultaneous DARTs,    

Assembling a unit immediately before deploying to theatre is retarded, or (we todd did), NOTHING CAN SUBSTITUTE FOR UNIT COHESION

Or how do the capabilities of the DART and Brigade Service Support Elements differ? That Brigade Service Support Element can not do the same job as DART?      
 
IMHO the only difference between DART stores and the various unit stores is the DART gear is laways packed up and pretty much ready to be loaded onto transports while unit stores are being used all the time.... ergo; takes a little bit longer to gather up and pack.

If you look at it that way.... there are DART capabilities prepositioned in Edmonton, Petawawa, Valcartier and +/- in Gagetown..... field units ready to deploy throughout Canada
 
I wasn't going for a Thunderbirds, Superfriends or ex-presidents idea. I was thinking about multiple disasters here in Canada and maybe a couple of over seas deployments for countries who can't go it alone. Hurricane hits Halifax and earthquake hits BC would stretch resources thin as they are now.

Nice to know the brigades can throw something together in a crunch. What happens if they are deployed? Are reserve brigades as well equipped or trained for this activity?
 
reserve bdes.... they have lots of bodies and a willing heart... weak on equipment.
what they lack in experience they can hopefuly offset with enthusiasm.

Reg Brigades can do more than throw something together. the Personnel, their training and experience are part of the resources they bring to the equation...
As things stand now, if a TF ships out, that only represents a portion of the brigade.
The Engineer & Recce Regiments will usually have deployed 1/3 of their field force and the infantry Battalions will have deployed mostly 1 of 3 battalions. Most of the rolling stock remains in Canada... so we're pretty much good to go.

Reserve units, arriving in formed sub, sub units would beef up the local brigades.

From my own personal experience with aid to the civil power; the Ice storm and the Oka crisis... Regs and Res worked together quite well. There are more and more oportunities for reservists to deploy with TFs and they continue to have that experience in their back pocket....
 
CBH99 said:
I think we could easily activate another DART styled unit, however, we would have to approach it differently.   The DART unit we currently have is quite expensive to operate and maintain, however, I don't believe this really needs to be the case.
OK...I suppose your counting the wages that constitute the bulk of the cost of a DART deployment that the media and critics like to include as costs as well? Guess what? That's kind of mis-leading isn't it seeing as how DART pers wages are going to be paid whether they're deployed with the DART or not. Remove the wages total from the "cost of deployment' and see how rapidly the cost of that deployment goes down.
CBH99 said:
Lets look at what I think is a cost effective approach to supporting a "foreign aid specialized unit".
1.   Cost of Storage for Equipment:   Minimal.   Build a few buildings at CFB Trenton specifically designated to this unit, so all of the equipment is right there when we need it.   Cost of maintaining those buildings?   Just the cost of power   (Minimal, since the buildings won't be used particularily often) and heating.
The DART Warehouse was built in Trenton in 1997/98. The DART warehouse is located at 8 Wg.   ;)
CBH99 said:
2.   Acquisition of Equipment:   Minimal.   A few dozen first aid kits.   A few dozen trauma bags.   Replacement materials for the items in the trauma bags, kept seperately.   6 ROWPU's   (2 backups, I think the most we've ever deployed is 4 - correct me if I am wrong.)   Communications equipment.   A few tents of various sizes and styles.   A few misc. machines for laundry, cooking, storing food, etc, etc.
Yep, and everything else that needs to be replaced upon their repatriation ie lumber, Toilet paper, PP&S, water, rations, expended medical supplies etc etc   ;)
CBH99 said:
3.   Personnel:   Minimal.   Have various personnel posted with their own units, designated as members of this unit also.   They will train and be employed as members of their given unit, whether it is infantry, medical, logistics, etc, etc.   However, when the DART-styled unit is activated to respond to a natural disaster, these designated personnel are ready to go.   This way, personnel costs are kept to a minimum since the personnel already exist, and are continually training in their home units.   We don't lack the personnel to man this unit, since this unit would not be manned on a full time basis, nor do we lack the personnel in the required trades to operate this unit.
Wow...this is already done as well. 1996. Personnel are tasked to the DART but remain with their parent Units until/unless deployed...DART Warehouse has a couple of Sup Techs and Maintainers in the bldg permanently. When I was there we had 5 pers year round....Some-ones got to do the DIs etc to maintain the equipment should it be required to deploy. The pers tasked to DART are ALWAYS ready to go...it's our governement that's slow!!   ;)
CBH99 said:
A few things:
-   Transport is always going to be a problem, so no point in even pointing it out.   Until the CF procures some kind of heavy lift aircraft, we're going to relay on the good ol' Ukranians to do our heavy lifting for us - or the USAF.
As discussed in this forum on many other "DART" related threads
CBH99 said:
-   Costs would be kept to a minimum, since this unit would not be manned full time.   Its equipment would be stored in seperate, designated buildings at CFB Trenton, ready for rapid deployment.   Personnel would be designated as "DART" personnel, but would train and be employed by their respective units.   Then, when "DART" gets the call - these folks pack up and leave.   Keeps costs down, while still maintaining proficient levels of training.
Manning as discussed above since 1996. Pers have been designated to DART , and once again, remain serving with parent units until deployed.   ;)
CBH99 said:
-   I understand the above may run into problems, if a unit is deployed or otherwise unavailable for deployment.   For this reason, we could compensate for it be designating more than the required amount of personnel as DART personnel.   Then, if some personnel are not available for deployment   (Perhaps because they are already deployed, or otherwise occupied) - there is still sufficient personnel to deploy the unit.
Done again, since 1996. Most even have back-up posns. DART is a Unit tasking, and is treated as such.
CBH99 said:
-   Equipment wouldn't be a problem, look at the equipment DART brings with them now.   A few jeeps, a few trucks, a few ROWPU's, as well as their required equipment for laundry, cooking, storing food, etc, etc.   The most expensive acquisition   (And one of the only acquisitions I think worth mentioning) would be additional ROWPU units.   I know the company (Can't remember the name) filed a lawsuit against the CF for maintenence contracts, however, this is not the only company out there that makes ROWPU units.   I don't know what ever came of the lawsuit, but I'm pretty sure we could find another company to provide us with ROWPU units pretty easily.
Money shouldn't be a problem....the DART expends PMO office monies vice normal CF funding monies.   ;D
CBH99 said:
 
** For those of you who are unfamiliar with my background, I served in the Canadian Forces for close to 4yrs.   I was a reserve MCpl, in the Calgary area.   However, I would like to keep my unit a secret due to the fact that other members of that unit post on this site, some of which I did not get along with at all.   I now work as a paramedic for Calgary EMS, providing reserve support for our TEMS platoon in conjunction with the Calgary Police Service.   I have travelled many parts of the Middle-East in my civilian life with my wife, including Pakistan, several former provinces of the USSR, Mongolia, UAE, and Iran. **
Based on all this info, I'm sure they could figure out who you are if they really wanted to!!   ;D

See this site:
http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/operations/DART/back_e.asp
 
My favourite remains Thunderbird #2!
(i.e. at least the Thunderbirds had some integral strategic airlift ... unlike a certain nation ...)

As an aside - I remember when the DART was being created, and the original (cost prohibitive) plan included a Domestic DART in each LFA, plus the International DART (the latter being the only one that saw the light of day ... )

At work today we discussed how the IRU in each LFA could be reconfigured when required into a "mini-DART" task force, by beefing up the medical/engr sub-component.  Airlift remains a problem until such time as the CF buys more aircraft that can carry sensible loads (unlike the "Goof-on" hel) and replaces the Chinooks we sold to the Netherlands (remind me again why somebody thought that was a good idea ... ?)
 
bossi said:
At work today we discussed how the IRU in each LFA could be reconfigured when required into a "mini-DART" task force, by beefing up the medical/engr sub-component.   Airlift remains a problem until such time as the CF buys more aircraft that can carry sensible loads (unlike the "Goof-on" hel) and replaces the Chinooks we sold to the Netherlands (remind me again why somebody thought that was a good idea ... ?)
I don't think you'll get many arguments on this forum about the lack of our heavy airlift capabilities!!
Yes...International DART...PMO Budget...thus it survived.  ;D
 
My first thought was Thunderbirds also.  But with a Team America twist, anything is more palatable with that ever present "gotta rid the world of terrorists" theme.  That seems to be where our money is going nowadays.

Besides if you set the bar as high as the present DART and get on site after the disaster is already over then we should be able to deploy a multitude of such DART teams anywhere, anytime.  We could send some troops to China, I understand there was an outbreak of Yellow fever there in 1985.
 
WRT a Canada-only DART, I must be missing something here...........While I recognize that the IRU concept is not designed solely to deal with disaster relief, is that not primarily how it has been employed? I realize that supplementing the IRU with specialty kit dependant on circumstances would be required, but this is the CF's quick reaction mechanism for domestic scenarios. Task-tailoring is what the Army does....

or is the airplane glue of my youth coming back to haunt me????

my 2 cents........
 
I certainly understand we need strategic airlift but a pet peve is forming with some discussions on this site. People are suggesting we buy C-17 tactical airlift planes to do it. It took 5 AN-124s to get DART to Islamabad (minus the people), using C-17s we would still be flying plane loads in.

C-17 max payload - 77,519kg
http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/c17/

C-5b max payload - 118,387kg
http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/c5/

AN-124-100M-150 max payload - 150 000kg
http://www.antonov.com/products/air/transport/AN-124/its.xml

As you can see by the numbers the C-17 is a bit of a dog. My vote would be the Antonov. If Antonov starts producing the AN-225 with 250t of cargo that would be even better. Watch the US start asking us to haul them around.
 
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