Indirect Fires Modernization Project - C3/M777 Replacement

[calculus]

The Finns have developed a concept for wheeled artillery specifically for coastal defense:

Patria showcases new self-propelled 155mm artillery for Finnish Navy coastal defence - Naval News

Patria unveiled the prototype of their new self-propelled ARVE 155mm artillery solution offered to the Finnish Navy’s new mobile coastal artillery

www.navalnews.com

 

[lenaitch]

Any concept of land-based coastal defence out side of harbours or choke points assumes the existence of roads.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Again nothing speaking about anti ship missiles, and we have multiple systems that can already do that. I don’t know if I’ve ever seen any thing ever discussing an anti ship missile capability for the Canadian Army.

A few years ago , the USMC would not expect to give up it's tanks and start becoming mobile coastal artillery with it's own self defense. Things can change in a heartbeat. It was the USMC change that started the discussion here. Discussion of possible future roles is what the internet and forums like this are very useful for. Not to mention, with current politics. Someone might get tasked to write a updated Defence Scheme No. 1

Here is what a NSM Coastal battery can defend from Uclulet

 

[daftandbarmy]

The Finns have developed a concept for wheeled artillery specifically for coastal defense:

Patria showcases new self-propelled 155mm artillery for Finnish Navy coastal defence - Naval News

Patria unveiled the prototype of their new self-propelled ARVE 155mm artillery solution offered to the Finnish Navy’s new mobile coastal artillery

www.navalnews.com

Oh great, they've given artillery to the Navy.

I hope the RCN don't get any ideas

 

[childs56]

Oh great, they've given artillery to the Navy.

I hope the RCN don't get any ideas

The Navy tried to use the Reserve Artillery unit in Victoria for airdefence. Offered the training, equipment and deployments.
The army turned it down.

 

[Fabius]

Meanwhile in Australia,

First two HIMARS are delivered to the 1st Long Range Fires Regiment of the 10th Fires Bde.

Australian Army takes delivery of first HIMARSs

The Australian Department of Defence (DoD) has announced the official handover of the first two M142 High-Mobility Artillery Rocket System (HIMARS) launchers,...

www.janes.com

Australia has down selected two contenders for the weapon system to arm the 2nd Long Range Fires Regiment 10th Fires Bde. These are being evaluated this year.

Defence down-selects two contenders for land-based maritime strike - EX2 for Defence Innovators

Defence has confirmed it will select from two contenders to equip the Australian Army with a land-based maritime strike capability under Project LAND8113 Ph.2. It has said this will result in the Army fielding a second long-range fires regiment. Defence will conduct a competitive evaluation in...

www.ex2.com.au

 

[Furniture]

Meanwhile in Australia,

First two HIMARS are delivered to the 1st Long Range Fires Regiment of the 10th Fires Bde.

Australian Army takes delivery of first HIMARSs

The Australian Department of Defence (DoD) has announced the official handover of the first two M142 High-Mobility Artillery Rocket System (HIMARS) launchers,...

www.janes.com

Australia has down selected two contenders for the weapon system to arm the 2nd Long Range Fires Regiment 10th Fires Bde. These are being evaluated this year.

Defence down-selects two contenders for land-based maritime strike - EX2 for Defence Innovators

Defence has confirmed it will select from two contenders to equip the Australian Army with a land-based maritime strike capability under Project LAND8113 Ph.2. It has said this will result in the Army fielding a second long-range fires regiment. Defence will conduct a competitive evaluation in...

www.ex2.com.au

The Strikemaster looks like an interesting option if Canada was interested in coastal defence, or joining the Aussies and others in the Pacific fight.

 

[GR66]

The Strikemaster looks like an interesting option if Canada was interested in coastal defence, or joining the Aussies and others in the Pacific fight.

I'd like to hope that the RCAF and RCN (along with the USAF and USN) would deal with any enemy naval task force before it can within range of our LRPF launchers.

Joining the Pacific fight is a whole other can of worms and I'd like to see some kind of specific details on what we envision our land participation being before we base our procurement on that.

 

[Underway]

Excellent article. Not to say I told you so but the US Army has it right in looking at these systems from a holistic point of view with limber vehicles and ammo resupply playing a key factor. This is what I constantly harp on with the European wheeled systems - they seem to be built for a firing range exercise rather than a war scenario.

Swedish Archer system has specific system (Ammunition Resupply System) designed to support their artillery, particularly for reloading rapidly. Its a 20 foot hook lift container that can go on basically any flatbed that can take the container.

 

[markppcli]

I'd like to hope that the RCAF and RCN (along with the USAF and USN) would deal with any enemy naval task force before it can within range of our LRPF launchers.

Joining the Pacific fight is a whole other can of worms and I'd like to see some kind of specific details on what we envision our land participation being before we base our procurement on that.

Are you suggesting that because of the fact that the Australians have a large set of unstable countries consisting of dense island chains directly neighbouring them their requirements for anti ship missiles might be different that that’s probably not that critical to our LRPF procurement?

 

[GR66]

Are you suggesting that because of the fact that the Australians have a large set of unstable countries consisting of dense island chains directly neighbouring them their requirements for anti ship missiles might be different that that’s probably not that critical to our LRPF procurement?

Well to be fair we appear to have a large, unstable country directly neighbouring us as well....

We could set up our LRPF along the Great Lakes perhaps?

 

[FJAG]

Swedish Archer system has specific system (Ammunition Resupply System) designed to support their artillery, particularly for reloading rapidly. Its a 20 foot hook lift container that can go on basically any flatbed that can take the container.

Oh, I've known about that piece of kit for years. IMHO, it's in the nature of an administrative resupply vehicle rather than a limber vehicle which can accompany and reload a gun in action or in a forward hide/gun position. I think its a weak link in their program. Their routine is to cycle guns back to an admin area for a reload. A more tactical and useful method is for a gun to move from a firing position to another firing position and be reloaded in situ.

What astonishes me is that the Swedes haven't taken any steps with the Archer to improve that system.

 

[Kirkhill]

I know. They're the bad guys now. But they are looking at all the same kit the CA is looking at.

And they have the money to pay for a shoot off. In nine months. Yuma January 2026.

What’s next for Army artillery modernization? More demos

An Army demonstration next year will help carve out the service's fires strategy and determine a way forward for the future of its artillery formations.

www.defensenews.com

Some nice discussion of the candidates, including the 2 man Hanwha K9A2 and the RCH155 on a GDLS Piranha 10x10 as well as a Rheinmetall Boxer.

 

[Furniture]

I'd like to hope that the RCAF and RCN (along with the USAF and USN) would deal with any enemy naval task force before it can within range of our LRPF launchers.

Joining the Pacific fight is a whole other can of worms and I'd like to see some kind of specific details on what we envision our land participation being before we base our procurement on that.

There is also the fact the NSM is a land attack missile as well, and will be aboard the RCN's RCDs... You know that whole crazy idea of using a common system in the CAF when they make sense, so that we can simplify logistics and training.

250km seems pretty long range, and guided cruise missiles seem rather precise... Seems like it's possibly something sensible if we want options. Even if just for the CA to do Maple Resolve in Latvia, or for the RCN to carry around while doing cocktail parties in Singapore and Busan.

Edit: I almost forgot, the RCAF could also end up using the NSM... So maybe, the idea of having more than one type of RRCA LRPF platform isn't a completely terrible idea after all.

 

[GR66]

There is also the fact the NSM is a land attack missile as well, and will be aboard the RCN's RCDs... You know that whole crazy idea of using a common system in the CAF when they make sense, so that we can simplify logistics and training.

250km seems pretty long range, and guided cruise missiles seem rather precise... Seems like it's possibly something sensible if we want options. Even if just for the CA to do Maple Resolve in Latvia, or for the RCN to carry around while doing cocktail parties in Singapore and Busan.

Edit: I almost forgot, the RCAF could also end up using the NSM... So maybe, the idea of having more than one type of RRCA LRPF platform isn't a completely terrible idea after all.

I've got nothing against the NSM as a common munition for the RCN, RCAF and CA. I just think the likelihood of there being a situation where we'd be using them as coastal defence missiles protecting Canadian territory is pretty slim.

Even if we needed to defend the Arctic the RCAF would be much better positioned to respond to an incursion. To cover the vast area of the Arctic with LRPF's you'd have to pre-station a large proportion of our launchers across a wide area in case an enemy force comes into range which takes them away from other potential, more traditional uses. If you plan to rather just deploy them by air after a threat is detected, an F-35 could respond much more quickly (and with stealth).

Now using the NSM for precision land attack in support of our ground forces is well within the realm of possibility.

 

[Czech_pivo]

I know. They're the bad guys now. But they are looking at all the same kit the CA is looking at.

And they have the money to pay for a shoot off. In nine months. Yuma January 2026.

What’s next for Army artillery modernization? More demos

An Army demonstration next year will help carve out the service's fires strategy and determine a way forward for the future of its artillery formations.

www.defensenews.com

Some nice discussion of the candidates, including the 2 man Hanwha K9A2 and the RCH155 on a GDLS Piranha 10x10 as well as a Rheinmetall Boxer.

Sounds like the US wishes Gerald Bull was still around.

 

[Furniture]

I've got nothing against the NSM as a common munition for the RCN, RCAF and CA. I just think the likelihood of there being a situation where we'd be using them as coastal defence missiles protecting Canadian territory is pretty slim.

Even if we needed to defend the Arctic the RCAF would be much better positioned to respond to an incursion. To cover the vast area of the Arctic with LRPF's you'd have to pre-station a large proportion of our launchers across a wide area in case an enemy force comes into range which takes them away from other potential, more traditional uses. If you plan to rather just deploy them by air after a threat is detected, an F-35 could respond much more quickly (and with stealth).

Now using the NSM for precision land attack in support of our ground forces is well within the realm of possibility.

Fair points I agree with 100%.

I wasn't clear enough in my initial post. I don't want to see them spread around the country for coastal defence, but if we are looking at the potential need/desire for such a system, the NSM is a reasonable offering that is in use elsewhere, while also being a land attack system with commonality across all three elements.

There was also an element of thinking that coastal PRes RCA units could be converted to LRPF with Strikemaster like systems using NSMs. Since the RCN will already be storing the missiles, and they are multipurpose systems. If, and only if we decide to get "stuck in" when China goes after Taiwan, the CA being able to bring something to the Pacific theater might be quite useful. Even if it's guarding the Philippines, Singapore, or RoK so they can use their own forces in the land fight elsewhere.

 

[Kirkhill]

I've got nothing against the NSM as a common munition for the RCN, RCAF and CA. I just think the likelihood of there being a situation where we'd be using them as coastal defence missiles protecting Canadian territory is pretty slim.

Even if we needed to defend the Arctic the RCAF would be much better positioned to respond to an incursion. To cover the vast area of the Arctic with LRPF's you'd have to pre-station a large proportion of our launchers across a wide area in case an enemy force comes into range which takes them away from other potential, more traditional uses. If you plan to rather just deploy them by air after a threat is detected, an F-35 could respond much more quickly (and with stealth).

Now using the NSM for precision land attack in support of our ground forces is well within the realm of possibility.

That is why I paired the HIMARS with the PrSM Increment 2 LBASM Land Based Anti-Ship Missile. The NSM has a range of 185 km and you are right you need lots and lots of them. Thus the interest by the US Army and the USMC in the PrSM variant.

But the Army is also hoping to develop multiple versions of PrSM going forward. Increment 2 is under development with a multimode seeker, known as the Land-Based Anti-Ship Missile (LBASM) seeker, and a PrSM Increment 3 seeks to add in enhanced lethality payloads.

The Army has also tapped a Lockheed Martin team and a Raytheon Technologies-Northrop Grumman team to work on competing PrSM Increment 4 designs that can fly more than 1,000 kilometers, possibly double the range of the current version. A few weeks ago the service said it was looking at an Increment 5 for an autonomous launcher to hit targets beyond 1,000 kilometers.

Pentagon marks 2 long-range tests with Army's PrSM and Army-Navy hypersonic missile - Breaking Defense

The US Army recently had 'successful' tests for both its Long-Range Hypersonic Weapon and a pair of Precision Strike Missile (PrSM) Increment 1 weapons.

breakingdefense.com

New Precision Strike Missile Seeker to Turn It Into Ship Killer

The US Army flight tested a Precision Strike Missile multimode seeker last year that enables the missile to perform maritime targeting.

thedefensepost.com

Land Based Anti-Ship Missile (Inc 2)​

Increment Two of the PrSM is known officially as the Land Based Anti-Ship Missile (LBASM). LBASM features a multi-mode seeker, unlike Increment One, enabling it to traverse area denied areas with more ease.

As LBASM was in development following the US withdrawal from the Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces Treaty in 2019, its range is to be increased beyond the previous 310 mi (500 km) threshold, up to an expected 620 mi (1,000 km) range, as well as increasing the speed of the missile. As the name suggests, the LBASM will be an anti-ship ballistic missile, and in collaboration with the multi-mode seeker will have the ability to engage moving targets. It is understood that the first procurement of the missile is to be completed in FY2028, with the United States Marine Corps and the Australian Army then receiving them.

A first live test was conducted in 2024.

Precision Strike Missile - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Which results in this laydown.



Three Firing Points (Inuvik, Resolute and Iqaluit) of 2 Launchers each allows the government to bring fire to all parts of the Northwest Passage in all weathers with minutes to target.

As I stated they don't need to be there all the time but they can be easily delivered by air in times of tension. One of many alternative duties for the RRCA's launchers. Not even, necessarily their primary duty, but one more option for the government. With the deployed launchers response times would be a fraction of the RCAF response time at a fraction of the cost and with a much shorter reload time.

 

[Kirkhill]

And related, kind of

Anduril to develop new solid rocket motors for US Army

The US Army has chosen Anduril to develop and qualify a new 4.75-inch SRM to enhance long-range precision rocket artillery missions.

www.army-technology.com

The US Army has chosen Anduril to develop and qualify a new 4.75-inch solid rocket motor (SRM) to enhance long-range precision rocket artillery missions.

This development aims to deliver affordable, high-volume precision fires at scale, meeting the demands of modern warfare.

Anduril’s solution is expected to increase magazine capacity while preserving the range, effectiveness, and lethality essential for current battlefield conditions.

4.75" is 120mm. Turning HIMARS into a Grad but, hopefully, with a longer ranged rocket.

The company notes that the 4.75-inch SRMs could allow up to 30 guided rockets in a single High Mobility Artillery Rocket System (HIMARS) pod, optimising loadout within the constraints of existing launchers.

It caters to a range of mission applications including rocket-assisted take-off, air-to-air, air-to-ground, surface-to-surface, surface-to-air, hypersonic boosters, missile defence, and man-portable tactical systems.

Under the new programme, Anduril will manufacture and test rocket motors using both traditional aluminised propellant and the advanced ALITEC fuel.

ALITEC is designed to enhance rocket motor performance by extending munition range and reducing size, weight, and power requirements.

The ALITEC-powered SRMs are expected to achieve ranges similar to larger rocket motors.

Anduril’s production facilities span more than 450 acres, enabling the production of thousands of SRMs annually.

A recent $14.3m Defense Production Act award has facilitated the implementation of single-piece-flow manufacturing at Anduril.

This process, along with a bladeless high-speed mixer, aims to produce these propulsion systems efficiently and affordably.

The government’s investment complements Anduril’s own $75m investment to mass-produce SRMs at reduced costs, ensuring timely and cost-effective delivery to the military.

A job for Magellan if we can work out the necessary details with Trump. The Aussies get their own rocket factory. Why can't we get one?

 

[childs56]

Would it be beneficial to look at the containerized systems for the NSM's or the MK 70 Payload Delivery System with an added feature of anti sub systems?
Co-locate them with the current radar sites along Canada's North and have them interconnected. We would have to buy 2-400 missiles. But they could be various types and uses.
These can be moved around and or set up dummy systems so no one (enemy) actually knows what number and type of systems are anywhere.