Image of RMC in the eyes of CF members

[Lumber]

Now, we all know how highly everyone thinks of us bratty little OCdts and NCdts round here at the college :rofl:, so lets stay away from that.

What I'm curious is about how the rest of the CF feels towards our often forgotten little unit hidden away here in Kingston. There are two views that I see people would take. Base your responses on these, or offer up your own interpretation. You'll see what I mean.

First is the idea that RMC is a training institution just like any other in the CF. The mega, the battleschool in Gagetown, the fleet school in Esquimalt, the staff college in Toronto; all just schools designed to train and educate CF members to properly and effectively perform their duties. RMC is no different with this view. Subtly, we are obtaining University Degrees as oppose to learning fleet battle tactics, and we are also our own unit, as opposed to being TD'd here.

Second is the idea that RMC is a sort of elite, private, military college, open only to the luck, privileged few. In this view (which seems to be the historical view), the college is sort of separate from the rest of the CF. Its students are regforce members, but they aren't really yet a part of the brotherhood of CF members. The college would then be at liberty to have certain traditions and policies that may not always be in-line with common CF practices.

How do non-RMC graduated Officers view the college? More interestingly (personall), how do NCOs and NCMs view the college? And finally, for those RMC grads out there in the forums, how do you view the school you once attended? Was it simply four years spent, training at a renowned and excellent learning institution, or do you feel that you now belong to a cadre of special members who stand apart from the rest of the CF?

Again, please refrain from submitting horor stories of your encounters with, or your sour (or bright  :-\) opinions of RMC cadets. I'm interested in starting a discussion on the image of the institution, not its members.

TDV  , Gimme A Beer :cheers:

 

[old medic]

Often, opinions about educational institutions are created around the professors and staff.

Milhouse: Jeez...if it's in a book, it's _gotta_ be true!
    Bart: Scary, no?  [points at author's photo] And _this_ guy's head
          of the Spaceology Department at the Correspondence College of
          Tampa!

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/67710/post-633315.html#msg633315
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/52232.0.html
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/52192/post-466748.html#msg466748

 

[Lumber]

Often, opinions about educational institutions are created around the professors and staff.

I agree! And by all means, express your opinions based upon those people. What I meant was I don't want to start a thread about member's opinions of people associated with RMC (students, profs., etc.) But by all means, if your opinion on the image of RMC is based upon something about the people here, truck on. I.e. "Because of the extreme diligence that is common amongst all RMC cadets (again :rofl, I feel the image of the college is one of a hard working, cohesive unit." Or something like that.

 

[medaid]

I will split this into two separate parts. Part 1 from an NCM point of view, and Part 2 from an Officer point of view.

1) When I was an NCM (yes, I was once an NCM, and despite my lowly rank, I loved every moment of it. I was honored to have served with the troops that I had later had the privilege of commanding) I had met quite a few ring knockers. Yup you read it, I said it. RING KNOCKERS. They behaved as if they themselves were the centers of the universe, and because they had entered the prestige and affluent charm school, that they were better then all who wears a uniform, and all those who do not. This generated distaste from me. This generated disrespect from me, because they had not respected me. I would almost, actually no, I would liken these young gentlemen and I do use these terms VERY loosely, to those officers of the Cadet Instructors Cadre, the ones whom I ever so despise. I will tell you why I despise them and the similarities between the those of Charm School and those of the CIC movement. Not all, but the ones I have met.

    a) they believed that they are something special, that their uneducated opinion on how the CF function matters;
    b) they believed that through their vast experience on courses and scenarios that they are now fit to command, troops and cadets alike;
    c) they thought that the only way to do things were by the text book, and any other way besides what was listed in "Inf, Sect, In the Advance" is wrong, and all who 
        disagrees is wrong regardless of experience;
    d) they actually believe that their minuscule time in service amounted to their abilities to comment on things at hand, matters which concerned not of them, but those who
        with vaster experiences have yet to find a solution to; and lastly
    e) the belief that because they are officers, they can do anything, and that their word is paramount above all else.

    I am not here to slam CIC nor RMC. But those are my observations when I was an NCM. Bottom line? I would not follow the majority of 'officers' from either institutions.

2) As an officer then shall we? What can I say to you, my 'brother' officer? Well lets start with this. In the eyes of RegF students at RMC, we in the PRes do not amount to the same standards as you. I have heard many times while on my CAP course, why PRes would need any of the 'good' gear such as TacVest and WWB when those of RMC do not have them. Why, we in the PRes deserve the same commission as those that graduate from RMC, and indeed why do those who graduate Civi U  (a lesser cousin to the pure bread stallions of RMC) deserve the same commission? We in the PRes do not do drill as long as you do (I have seen atrocious drill capabilities from RMC cadets), we are not as bright as you (if we were, we'd be at RMC now wouldn't we?) and above all else we are not even doing the same 'job' as you do in the RegF. Out of all the RMC cadets, and graduates that I have met personally, there is only 1 (one), count em, 1 officer I would follow willingly and without reserve. You want to know why?

  a) this officer was humble, never once did this officer hesitate to ask for advice on how to do things that they did not understand;
  b) this officer was willing to admit fault, and hell seek responsibility for the actions of her subordinates like those of a good leader;
  c) the officer held no animosity towards the their counterpart in the PRes, but infact embraced the opportunity to help educate us and bring us up to the RegF standard;
  d) the officer was willing to think out side of the box, and is willing to critique their ideas along with the input of their followers; and lastly
  e) this officer never stepped out of her boundaries and experience to point a finger at something they did not know and say it's wrong.

  The problem with the majority of RMC cadets is this. You are all pumped up to be these future leaders of tomorrow, and told how special you are continuously that you have never for once been slammed. I mean REALLY been slammed. I don't blame this on you, because in order to really be slammed, you have to have served! This is to ALL RMC cadets that are currently on this board who think they're hot stuff. You are worth NOTHING until you've completed your MOC and you have SERVED in a real unit. That means you have gone under the instruction of a Senior NCO who is NOT in a school but at an operational unit, and you have passed your JOUT junior officer under training) stages. Here within lies the problem. You are never told that you are not worth much, and thus you have an over inflated ego, which turns you into egomaniacs. Who, believe that by the power invested into you by the Queen's Commission you can do no wrong! That the CDS is the embodiment of what ever deity you believe in, and you are his right hand! PLEASE get OVER yourselves! You ask ANY NCM for their true opinion on RMC candidates, you will not get a flattering response, have you yourselves who attend RMC ever wonder WHY? You act with no regard to others, you live in a self centered little realm of yours, and you believe what you've learned and taught to each other is LEADERSHIP!

    Bottom line is my brother officer, I don't look too highly upon those who have earned their commission from RMC. I will take a DEO over an RMC officer any day, and most of the time I'll be bang on with my selection. If you look at the majority of senior General and Flag officers you will notice 1 thing. Majority of them are NOT RMC graduates. Be it for one reason or another, you think about that. That is my opinion on RMC and its candidates. You asked for a non BS personal opinion post, and you got it. Just to make it clear to those RMC cadets who think they're soemthing special over their PRes counterparts, just know this. Your PRes counterpart could be called up defend Canada tomorrow, or to help with a humanitarian mission the next, but YOU as RMC cadets sit in the comforts of your campus and never have to worry about that because YOU won't be. Next time, you want to say something disrespectful towards a PRes Officer for no other reason then because he or she is not RegF and did not graduate from RMC? Think twice, because that person probably already has more dirt on their boots from being in the field then you've got TI.


Cheers!

MT.

 

[Lumber]

    Bottom line is my brother officer, I don't look too highly upon those who have earned their commission from RMC. I will take a DEO over an RMC officer any day, and most of the time I'll be bang on with my selection. If you look at the majority of senior General and Flag officers you will notice 1 thing. Majority of them are NOT RMC graduates. Be it for one reason or another, you think about that. That is my opinion on RMC and its candidates. You asked for a non BS personal opinion post, and you got it. Just to make it clear to those RMC cadets who think they're soemthing special over their PRes counterparts, just know this. Your PRes counterpart could be called up defend Canada tomorrow, or to help with a humanitarian mission the next, but YOU as RMC cadets sit in the comforts of your campus and never have to worry about that because YOU won't be. Next time, you want to say something disrespectful towards a PRes Officer for no other reason then because he or she is not RegF and did not graduate from RMC? Think twice, because that person probably already has more dirt on their boots from being in the field then you've got TI.


Cheers!

MT.

Umm, I appreciated the alternate points of view, but they're alternate views of RMC Cadets. I was looking for the view of the college. I.e. "The college is a stupid elitist social club full of arrogant assholes" or "The college is at the back end of CF training institutions."

And holy crap, did an RMC cadet tear apart PRes Officers in front of you or something? There's some serious hate going on here! I'm relieved you can think of one (1) RMC grad who you would follow into battle, but you can't assume that that is the ONLY one compotent enough that you would follow, do you?

 

[Nemo888]

I tend to avoid all unseasoned or green officers, RMC grads slightly more so.

 

[medaid]

Sorry mate hard to critique an institution without critiquing its products. The insitution made you, but you also make the institution. No hate, just voicing my opinions and observation. It is by no means what everyone else thinks. Like I said I've met some good and mostly bad RMC candidates and graduates. Unfortunately, yes as of this very moment there is ONLY ONE I would follow without question. Unless someone can change my mind before I hit post, there won't be another.

 

[Lumber]

Unless someone can change my mind before I hit post, there won't be another.

lol ;D

 

[IN HOC SIGNO]

Those who stay after their obligatory service and dedicate themselves to the institution usually make fairly decent officers. the ones who came for the subsidised degree are usually not worth their salary. A lot of our current senior leaders are products of the institution.....LGen Natynchuk, (VCDS) VAdm Robertson(CMS), RAdm MacFadden(JTFA), LGen Watt (CAS) etc.
When you graduate from RMC you are a new University graduate with a guaranteed job...not guaranteed respect or privilege...then the earning of your spurs begins. RMC is not a bad foundation for that training but it's not the be all and end all. I've served with many RMC grads and did all my MARS MQC training with them so I've been around. The protected RMC "cloister" tends to breed an elitism in some and an unrealistic world view in others...as I said once they've done 4 or 5 years in the real CF and had the rough edges polished off they have a chance of being decent officers...if they stay on for the ride.

 

[armyvern]

It would seem that at this esteemed Military Institution, it is quite acceptable, these days, to be improperly dressed while in uniform with nary a word said about it. Dress & deportment -- that basic instiller of discipline -- apparently, the dress portion, no where to be seen while in the classroom.

It would seem that this esteemed Military Institution is content with having hypocritical profs educating (not "leading") our fearless future leaders who won't hesitate to collect the Queen's Shilling and retain their "Queen's Commission" while suing to avoid toasting her.

It would seem that esteemed Military Institution has removed the Sergeants from the ranks of it's staff this year. Ironically, those Sergeants who, along with the men and women who serve under them, ARE the backbone of the Canadian Forces (despite what RMC Cadets like to believe about themselves).

It would seem that this esteemed Military Institution is becoming ---

a more self-glorified Civ U each day.

The "M" in RMC, is hanging on by a thread. It's too bad too, that their prior history seems to be slipping away ... quite noticeable while viewing and "leading" some of their recent product.

 

[Lumber]

It would seem that esteemed Military Institution has removed the Sergeants from the ranks of it's staff this year. 

A terrible loss it was. I sincerely enjoyed working with my squadron's sargeant last year. I feel like i've lost my only link to the NCM world.

Sergeants ARE the backbone of the Canadian Forces (despite what RMC Cadets like to believe about themselves).

I'll admit, like has been said many time already, RMC students and grads have a tendency to think they are king shit. But I don't know any who think they are the backbone of the CF. I'm not saying you lying or that your wrong. I'm sure you've met some who do believe that. Just don't generalize. We're cocky, not stupid.

 

[armyvern]

A terrible loss it was. I sincerely enjoyed working with my squadron's sargeant last year. I feel like I've lost my only link to the NCM world.

I'll admit, like has been said many time already, RMC students and grads have a tendency to think they are king shit. But I don't know any who think they are the backbone of the CF. I'm not saying you lying or that your wrong. I'm sure you've met some who do believe that. Just don't generalize. We're cocky, not stupid.

Is one considered to be generalizing when that is the prevailing attitude amongst most of the outputs I've had the pleasure of dealing with over the past few years (It's either the "we are the backbone, without us RMC boys the CF would fold attitude" OR the "we RMC grads constitute the brightest future for the CF attitude)?

That's not slamming the grads BTW ... it's slamming the institution that actually managed to instill this 'value' into these kids in such a manner that they actually hold it to be truly and ethically reflective of themselves, which, I can assure you, is not the case.

The CF is a team ... RMC grads ... are just a very small part of it.

 

[Lumber]

Is one considered to be generalizing when that is the prevailing attitude amongst most of the outputs I've had the pleasure of dealing with over the past few years (It's either the "we are the backbone, without us RMC boys the CF would fold attitude" OR the "we RMC grads constitute the brightest future for the CF attitude)?

That's not slamming the grads BTW ... it's slamming the institution that actually managed to instill this 'value' into these kids in such a manner that they actually hold it to be truly and ethically reflective of themselves.

It is and it isn't. What you say may, (and I do believe you), be true for the the outputs that you've had the pleasure of dealing with. But I'm going to assume you havn't had the pleasure (misfortune) of dealing with a majority of those outputs, and thus it is generalizing if if your are referring to outputs as a whole. So, the prevailing attitude amongst those you have dealt with may be that they are the backbone of the CF, but that may not be so for cadets as a whole.

BUT, since I lack an enormous amount of experience, I cannot credibly refute your statement either. I can only head you caution in what may amount to assumptions.

 

[observor 69]

I don't want to get into a large debating match here but...
I attended RMC,  took a few courses as an NCM, and :
Highly respected the whole academic institution, well funded particularly engineering, and faculty I meet in Poli Sci were at the top of their field and I note that many still are.
I got my degree from Queen's and I can attest that the average RMC student is a much more mature rounded individual. And like any university it has it's share of young idiots.
I also greatly admired the youthful enthusiasm for life and their endeavour from the student body. Captian Goddard seems an example of this enthusiasm for life.

In the field at an Air Force base as an Avionics tech I meet many RMC Engineering officers. The majority were good people.
As pilots arrogance is a given. 

RMC is similar to West Point it has it's faults but it is also an institution with a tradition and history of honour.

 

[c_canuk]

from what I know of it through my sister who just graduated in 06 RMC provides the tools for achieving a university education, while being more military oriented than Civy U

I think they need to stress that while RMC time counts towards your CD and Pension ( I'm assuming that it does), it does not count as time in as experiance. When you graduate you have maybe a year more experiance than a DEO and that is being generous.

Being a supervisor/student at RMC does not prepare one for leading, and it needs to be stressed that while PLQ and BOMQ have parallels they do not turn out equally qualified candidates... MCpls out of PLQs have at least of 6-8 years in and have been in supervisory positions for many of that. Officers who have no experiance to apply the training to are not ready to lead right out of the gate.

2 months after you've graduated RMC while your brother is on leave from teaching a BMQ that includes a couple 2LTs and Ocdts and is relaying a story that happend during the course in the field, do not snort and say "that doesn't happen" in your most haughty RMC tone unless you want to see his angry instructor face. It's generally good to pretend there is no rank in the house between siblings as getting jacked up by your older bro tends to make mom cry. Normally I would have bit my tounge but it was reflex at that point.

And on mentioning that course... it needs to be stressed to all officer candidates, the position of batman does not exist anymore... DO NOT ask the MCpl meeting you at the airport if he is the guy carrying your luggage.

I think RMC is like any other school, it provides the knowledge, but you need practice and experiance applying the knowledge before you can master it.

 

[Strike]

All I have to say, is thank goodness the 4th years will be living back at the campus next year.  It's no wonder a group of 2nd years didn't recognize the CWC out in town when he lives off campus.  What's even worse was the punishment he dolled out, without informing the Mackenzie CoC.  A prime example of how the presence of an NCO could have made a difference.  I'm sure any of the Sgts that had been there in previous years could have found a better way of dealing with that little situation.

Now, I am NOT painting the whole school with the same brush.  I've gone through the system and had the attitude BEFORE I even got to the school.  When I got into the summer training system, I found maybe a handful of my cohorts were carrying the hollier-than-thou attitude...but it was pretty much the same ratio coming from some ROTP students.  In fact, today, I can see the same ratio in the NCM structure at well (usually from the young bucks that are full of piss and vinegar).

As a school, I think the National recognition for research that the College just received speaks for itself.  The student to teacher ratio cannot be beat.  The support from the profs is wonderful.  The real-world opportunities are excellent.  How many of you know that the Enviro Sciences department has been the lead in DEW Line site clean-up for years?  In fact, many undergrad students have had their thesis projects furthered by this section and used in real-world applications.  This is one department.  I'm sure there are more than a few others who've had the same chances.

 

[Teflon]

We're cocky, not stupid.

It's generally been my expearience that cocky = stupid in most cases

 

[armyvern]

The real-world opportunities are excellent.  How many of you know that the Enviro Sciences department has been the lead in DEW Line site clean-up for years?  In fact, many undergrad students have had their thesis projects furthered by this section and used in real-world applications.  This is one department.  I'm sure there are more than a few others who've had the same chances.

Actually had a couple of those RMC enviro science officer candidates working up in CFS Alert with me one summer (I was the zippo), as we cleaned up the PCBs etc. Awesome people, both of them.

Don't get me wrong ... I've met a great number of RMC grads who've been excellent; it is, after all, in their attitude. Once they get out into the real world (ie at the pointy end etc), the ones that harbour the wrong attitude usually end up doing the same as anyone else -- adjusting it to correct it and shaping up ... or shipping out.

 

[dapaterson]

RMC = too much money for too little return.  We need a Sandhurst, a finishing school for officers, not a degree granting institution.  There's a real risk to the intellectual monoculture that is RMC, particularly with a force as small as the CF.  Far cheaper to buy off the shelf from Civvy U.

The infelixibility of RMC on scheduling of terms causese a tremndous strain on the indiv training system every year; you'd think that a school owned and operated by the CF for the CF would align its schedule to permit us to make maximum use of the training system by spreading its impact over the calendar year; instead, they slavishly follow the Civy U calendar.

The top-heavy personnel in the college needs reforming as well - if the CMBGs can be commanded by Colonels, then a four-year PAT platoon can be commanded by a Lieutenant Colonel vice a Brigadier General. 


... and don't get me started on the decision to let the Commandant be the career manager for "his" OCdts, further screwing up personnel production...

 

[riggermade]

In my experience as a WO who's duty is to bring along these young officers and let them benefit from your experience the officers coming out of RMC tend to think they after 4 years in the military know it all and that a WO with normally 20+ years is just another NCM for them to look down upon.  I found that the officers coming out of Civvy U were more apt to listen and learn