If you were the Prime Minister . . .

[Inch]

"Replace all figure 11 targets with ones depicting the current and passed heads of the Liberal govt. starting with Deafenbaker and an Avro Arrow in the background!"

Hey Slim, U do know that Defenbaker scrapped the Avril Arrow which probably doomed canada from being one of the most powerful country's in the world eh?

Avril Arrow? Is she related to Avril Lavigne?

I'm pretty sure that's what Slim was getting at, but thanks for the effort.

 

[Infanteer]

I don't know how Avril Lavigne would make us a World Power?  Maybe people would back down if they were confronted with an Army of sk8ter bois?

 

[Horse_Soldier]

"Replace all figure 11 targets with ones depicting the current and passed heads of the Liberal govt. starting with Deafenbaker and an Avro Arrow in the background!"

Hey Slim, U do know that Defenbaker scrapped the Avril Arrow which probably doomed canada from being one of the most powerful country's in the world eh?

Umm, Dief the Chief was a pure blue Progressive Conservative, not a Gliberal.  The CF has been screwed over by both parties in equal measure over the years.

 

[buzgo]

Doesn't it seem like the only time the CF in all of its permutations has really been well 'looked after' is during wartime?

I've been reading all of these various threads talking about how we are in rough shape and we need more money, men, equipment and so on, but weren't we in rough shape prior to both world wars? Didn't we have to get WW 2 vets to field units in Korea and with NATO in the 50s? So isn't our current state actually the status quo? I'm not saying that its right and that we shouldn't do something about it immediately, but this is nothing new. It seems like EVERY peacetime government has shafted the military, doesn't it?

 

[Infanteer]

You're right signalsguy.  We've been unprepared for our defence needs for most of our history due to a good supply of immaturity (militia myth, the Americans can do it).  We've had to make up for this unpreparedness by paying the butchers-bill when we did send our troops to fight.

However, as professional soldier, it is essential to continue to make the best of what we've got and to always be looking for ways to improve - that way, when the flag goes up, we'll be as prepared and ready as we can be.

 

[Zipper]

I agree with you as well Signal.

We have always relied on others to be our main protectors. Britain before WWII and The States after. I don't think there has been a Gov (except in wartime) that has actually shelled out enough for a proper Armed Forces. Hell, the Liberal's did fine from 39-45. But as soon as the war was over, it was "whoosh", there goes the money.

Makes you wonder what they were using it for before the excuse of medicare?

 

[Slim]

Umm, Dief the Chief was a pure blue Progressive Conservative, not a Gliberal.   The CF has been screwed over by both parties in equal measure over the years.

For the last F#CKING time...I don't care if he was the Easter Bunnie. He killed the greatest fighter/bomber that this country has ever produced and refused to support Canadian industry when it was required the most...He can rot in Hell as far as I'm concerned!

 

[winchable]

This thread has potential lads, keep it civil.

 

[jerrythunder]

...And theguy who killed the Avro Arrow. He's on the list Smartypants

Hey man you are dead on, When Defenbaker cancelled the Avril Arrow project the scientists left and worked for other orginizations like NASA. He crippled Canada's Military by cancelling the project that would of put canada in as a world super power.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

AVRO!!!!!!.....AVRO!!!!!!

 

[old medic]

AVRO....

aka ,  A.V. Roe Aircraft Canada
          AVRO Aircraft of Canada


Spelling it wrong detracts from credibility.

 

[youravatar]

Spelling it wrong detracts from credibility.

he has little to being with lol

if i was prime minister...
well first order of business would be to boost the troops, new vehicles, specifically, new tanks, helicopters, ships, Long\Short Range Transport Planes Capable of carrying said tanks and troops.

 

[jerrythunder]

AVRO!!!!!!.....AVRO!!!!!!

sorry guy's i get kinda excited when i talk about the AVRO project. it was out big chance to make a large difference as a world power but we blew it.

 

[jerrythunder]

there are rumors that this aircraft was taken to a safe location and not destroyed or at least a model was kept intact, is that true?

 

[condor888000]

I doubt it, the Arrow sid to have escaped was 206, right? That's hard to believe since both it's wing tips, nose cone, includingboth pilot's and observers cockpits, one of it's landing gear and one of it's engines are in the Canada Aviation Museum here in Ottawa.

link:
http://www.aviation.technomuses.ca/collections/artifacts/aircraft/AvroCanadaCF-105Arrow.shtml

Note the registration number, last three digits are 206, there's no Arrows out there, sorry for the letdown.

 

[bossi]

I'll never be elected to Canada's House of Commons, because I could never stomach party politics long enough to get there (and sadly, as long as our electoral system is slanted towards partisan/pork barrel politics, patronage, and smarmy fartcatching puke quislings ... loyalty to Canada is NOT the most important criteria to holding public office).  However, if I ever figure out how to buy my way into Parliament ... here's the dividend I'd pay back to our country:

1.  Eliminate HRDC and give their entire budget to the military (i.e. attending the Commonwealth Study Conference in 1998, I was told the Canadian ARMED Forces is Canada's "largest" federal employer, and therefore Canada's premiere institution in Human Resources and Development - to paraphrase a steel company in Hamilton, the Canadian ARMED Forces slogan should be "Our product is pride and courage.  Our strength is people.")

2.  Give Canadians improved opportunities to be proud of their military - as I've already mentioned elsewhere here, I'm starting a letter-writing campaign to make it mandatory for all public schools in Canada to teach our children about truly great Canadians (as opposed to Pravda's CBC's flawed popularity contest:   http://www.gg.ca/media/doc.asp?lang=e&DocID=4364

http://army.ca/forums/threads/26215/post-161445.html#msg161445

3.  Ensure every overseas deployment of Canadian ARMED Forces is accompanied by SUPPORT from other governments (e.g. CIDA), as opposed to burdening operational deployments with bureaucratic administation imposed by OGD mandarins back in Ottawa ... grrrr ...

4.  Give all three services a clear mandate, and the tools to achieve it:
4.a.  Army - in a nutshell, a division to defend Canada consisting of four brigades, and the ability to deploy one.
4.b.  Navy - in a nutshell, the ability to defend our coasts (not just patrol them, but also to land troops on our coasts), and the ability to support an Army deployment (i.e. sealift, and fighting ability to get it there).
4.c.  Air Force - in a nutshell, the ability to defend our airspace (not just patrol it), and the ability to support an Army deployment (i.e. strategic airlift, and buckets of tactical aviation).
4.d.  National Defence - politics be damned, but JTF2 is a Special Force and should have a name that evokes pride, strength, and special strike capabilities.

5.  Some pet projects:
5.a.  Heck - we paid off the Montreal Olympics with a lottery, so why not ... cancel the Sikorsky contract and buy EH101's instead (for the Navy, Army, Air Force, and Joint Commando) - and, rather than simply screw over all the taxpayers, we could have a lottery to pay off not only the penalty fees, but the actual purchase as well (hmmm ... maybe we'll have to start a seperate thread to name the lottery ... "Canacopter"?)
5.b.  Tactical aviation - although my ultimate fantasy would be functional V22 Ospreys for all four armed services (did I mention the Coast Guard stepping up to the plate ...?) - I'd get rid of our useless Griffooons and replace them with REAL military helicopters (recently somebody else used the term "Milverado's", and I'm still chuckling at it ...).  It's embarassing that we got rid of our Chinooks.
5.c.  Helicopter assault ships - something like the ROTTERDAM, GUAM, or whatever - basically, since we'd now have a common airframe in the V22 or EH101, these ships could perform coastal defence tasks by being able to serve as a mobile platform for surveillance and SAR missions, plus be able to pick up components of the Joint Commando and land them almost anywhere.  Sure, paying off the Bonnie seemed like a good idea at the time, but ... a pocket carrier sure helps project power further ...
5.d.  I'd invent time travel, and bring back the Avro Arrow (there's a novel about a secret squadron ...)

But, it's all a pipe dream.  In order to be elected to the House of Commons one has to be greedy, and I'm not.

 

[Inch]

Bossi, good post, but I've got a few comments about some of it.

Personally, I would rather we got Sikorsky's instead of EH101s for the common fleet. The Cormorants have just found new cracks in the tailrotor hubs, there are fixes in the works but this problem has been dragging on for the better part of a year with no end in sight. They've had icing problems that the RN is still trying to get worked out, in fact there's a RN Merlin here in Shearwater doing icing trials, I don't know exactly what they're trialling, but 10 years into the project is a little late to be figuring out how to properly de-ice the things. Also, ask the RAF what they think about using EH101s for heavy lift, I've been told by the RN exchange pilot here and other sources that they're having all kinds of problems with their EH101s. It was designed as a naval helo and just isn't particularly suited to field operations.

I'm a firm believer that one helo cannot do all our bidding, just like the LAV is not the solution to all the army's problems. The cost savings would be negligible (if they weren't we probably would have gotten Merlins instead of Superhawks), aircrew would be trained separately for all the different jobs, the techs would have some common training, but there would also be some differences like the MH has a sonar that none of the other fleets would have. Parts may be a savings, but again, who's gonig to get priority, the army? Think again, SAR will and the TacHel/MH crowds will be left waiting.

As for bringing back the Arrow, the days of the interceptor are over. A fighter is more versatile nowadays, long range air-to-air missiles and the ability to dogfight are important now, something the Arrow was not designed to do. I'll take a Hornet anyday of the week over a 1950's interceptor.