Does being part of military make you 'right wing'?

[George Wallace]

On the "military pacifist" point of view.... I certainly would not want a pacifist covering my flank or in my fireteam in a TIC.

Just a thought:

Even a pacifist can  get pissed off and strike back. 

Even a pacifist may fight to sustain his life.

 

[Roy Harding]

Pacifism is a wonderful conviction in theory, but only in theory. Real life has a way of eventually rubbing even the most altruistic nose in a steaming pile of "F**k that".

Anthony Beal

 

[ltmaverick25]

I am in the military and I am right wing.  I know for a fact that not everyone in the military shares right leaning views.  This is made obvious by all those arguments I find myself in with those damned lefties

On a more serious note though, this has been said by others, but I will say it again here.  You really need to think about the consequences of your decision.  You have the right to whatever beleif you may wish to hold, however you absolutely will not have the right to forgo your duty, or disregard orders because you have an ideological objection to them.  There are real consequences here that could get your teamates killed if you failed to act for example.  I dont want this to come across like a lecture or anything of the sort, but, based solely on what you have written in this thread, I am not conviced you have come to terms with ALL the potential realities of this job.

Defending Canadian territory against hostile acts is certainly part of our job description, but its not the only part.  Ultimately, the CF is employed to defend Canadian interests.  And there is nothing moral, fair or balanced about a nations interests.  Granted we do not have a history of starting wars, but we do have a history of intervening in other peoples wars and participating in offensive battles.  Not because it was the nice friendly Canadian thing to do, but rather, because political leaders at the time deamed such acts to be in Canada's interests.

 

[chris_log]

On the "military pacifist" point of view.... I certainly would not want a pacifist covering my flank or in my fireteam in a TIC.

As opposed to a trigger happy militarist?

The danger with labels is that you start to lump people into categories that makes it easier to dismiss them. I'll work with anyone who passes their training, shows a reasonable level of competence and whom has earned my trust....political views be dammed.

To state that you'd never serve with a person who holds 'pacifist' beliefs show only ignorance.

Heck, you could label me a pacifist. I tend to avoid violent confrontations (even in my old civvie job, where fighting WAS the job) and prefer to take down a potential threat via my words, not fists. Now that being said, I hold a capacity for violence like everyone else does (regardless of political beliefs).

If the OP has a desire to serve her country and has no qualms about using force if necessary, then give 'er.

Jesus, the way some people talk here you'd think we spent our time shooting every thing that moved (we don't, regardless of trade, there's infanteers who have deployed and not shot a single person...I know some personally).

A military is an organisation that uses violence to accomplish the nation's goals...but we are not a violent organisation (I think that makes sense). Violence is a tool, not a lifestyle. 

(And despite all the aforementioned....for the record our modern interpretation of politically driven pacifism is a naive joke. Just as modern liberalism goes against the basic tenets of what liberalism really was....modern pacifism, in a political sense, bears little resemblence to what the word really means, in my view). 

 

[1feral1]

Start :warstory: involving a LW believer

I'll share something here......

On my tour we had a young Pte (Para), who one hot fall day in Baghdad, failed to fire his MAG 58 at clear and present danger to personnel and property, all IAW our ROEs. He should have though, as many lives were in danger. He froze! He should have shot!!

Why he did not, only he knows, but his PL began to outright HATE him. There was a few incidents to fuel this fury before hand.

He was very passive and I would call him ultra left. How he ended up in the RAInf I'll never know.

Him failing his PL mates in a very serious situation effected his Inf PL so much, through the chain of comd, from Seco to PL SGT to PL Comd, he was farmed out, outcast from his own PL as he could not be trusted in a pinch.

He ended up being farmed into my PL, and I was the PL SGT. Leaving his PL pretty much broke his spirit, as we had him on suicide watch for a while, and I was very concered for his mental welfare, and I made this known at many O Gps. and I put him in a group room, after informing my PL the situation with him. He was accepted over time by my lads, and we included him with all we did. For some time he was a true admin burden, but he was still useful inside the wire. I showed him emptathy, and offered if he ever had anything on his mind to come and see me at anytime.

It took him about a month or so to come around, and once, I had him accompany me on an ammo run up Route Irish to Camp Victory in a Valir Uparmoured Unimog with LAV escort, I had him riding shot-gun with a para-Minimi, but I did not have much faith in him outside of picquet duties. If the AIF was going to 'arc' up, I hoped it would not be that day. We got back into our FOB without incident.

I was however, fair and positive to him, giving him the reassurance he needed, but I did not want him going outside the wire, as I knew he was in effective, and could not really be trusted.

A nice guy though, soft spoken, almost virgin like in appearance and manner. He ended up assisting our Doc with medical duties in our FOB (Union III Al Tawheed), working at US Army 10 and 28 CSH hospitals with Coalition wounded, coming in right off the LZ. So he had his place, and he was effective there, and quite frankly I had been there a few times myself, and seen the most sickening of injuries, so good on him finding his niche of usefulness. I could not stand it in ther for 2 mins yet alone shift after shift of the at times insane trauma. It takes a special breed to handle that.

He discharged after returning from Iraq. 

Sum up Sarge...

I would want someone who was keen, switched on and aggressive with me. I don't think one has to be a RW'r for that, as look at SGT York of US WWI fame. Look what he accomplished, and look at his religous background.

End  :warstory:

OWDU

Sorry, had to edit for spelling and grammar.

 

[mellian]

From my experience alone and of all of the people I met over the years, one's political views is not a good tool to judge whether one is capable of being aggressive or/and violent. That is clear as day with some protests, where some individuals, despite having 'left wing' views, are quite willing to commit property damage and violence to get their message across.

As for myself, I am no stranger to violence or aggression, upon myself or committing it, but always in defense of myself and friends thus far. I mean, I play roller derby where one cannot be shy at hitting someone else, and something I am not afraid in doing in the context of the sport and to help the team, even if I risk injuring and hurting another person which unfortunately has happened. I do what I have to do, and worry about the consequences or feelings after.

Despite my political views, I have no qualms to do my duty and help maintain the safety of the team/unit, even in a war I am may not personally approve of. If I end up shooting someone(s) as part of that, so be it. I do what I have to do, and worry about the consequences and feelings after, as I am sure I will not have time to think about it in the times that matters anyways. Most I can do is hope I do not accidentally friendly fire or kill non-combatant civilians. If after the fact I happen to object, then there is the conscientious objector process and VR when the tour is done.

In the end, I brought the protest stuff to help spur discussion in this thread.

 

[ltmaverick25]

From my experience alone and of all of the people I met over the years, one's political views is not a good tool to judge whether one is capable of being aggressive or/and violent. That is clear as day with some protests, where some individuals, despite having 'left wing' views, are quite willing to commit property damage and violence to get their message across.

As for myself, I am no stranger to violence or aggression, upon myself or committing it, but always in defense of myself and friends thus far. I mean, I play roller derby where one cannot be shy at hitting someone else, and something I am not afraid in doing in the context of the sport and to help the team, even if I risk injuring and hurting another person which unfortunately has happened. I do what I have to do, and worry about the consequences or feelings after.

Despite my political views, I have no qualms to do my duty and help maintain the safety of the team/unit, even in a war I am may not personally approve of. If I end up shooting someone(s) as part of that, so be it. I do what I have to do, and worry about the consequences and feelings after, as I am sure I will not have time to think about it in the times that matters anyways. Most I can do is hope I do not accidentally friendly fire or kill non-combatant civilians. If after the fact I happen to object, then there is the conscientious objector process and VR when the tour is done.

In the end, I brought the protest stuff to help spur discussion in this thread.

Fair enough, when do you swear in?

 

[mellian]

That would be up to the investigators.  What might bite you on the A$$ is computer searches ( if done, out of my lane here on the specifics) that may have you linked to people or organizations who would rate a red flag from cursorary searches.  Your refferances may or may not help or hurt you. I dont know your specifics.  But I do know there are many with various backgrounds in fairly high security clearances. Just be forthright with any questions posed and dont try to hide things ( mind you dont volunteer it either)

I occasionally 'stalk' myself with google searches, figuring out how much one could possibly find out about me. Allows me to remove any references that really looks bad (none so far), and not get caught off guard if someone I never met or anyone else knows something I did tell them or anyone else about. Beyond google, authourities may or may not still have various footage of me at protests, which I make a point to wave to then, or pose. Big Brother is only an issue to me if they ever pull a The Net or Eagle Eye or Enemy of the State stunt.

I made a point to avoid anyone I know from activism and protesting for references, mainly because they would refuse anyway if it is for the CF. That and some of those I know who have their own set of clearances.

I have experience answering questions for clearances, or crossing the border, or by the police, etc. Where a lot of people tend to get nervous and fumble with their answers, or say to much, I actually look forward to it with weird sense of hope they will throw in some trick or hard questions, putting me on the spot somehow. I attribute that as part of my overall 'sucker for punishment' aspect of my character.

 

[mellian]

Fair enough, when do you swear in?

Unknown yet as I still have to do medical check scheduled in over a month and the interview which is presently unscheduled. If every goes well and rate it is going, probably be the end of October or November.

 

[Smity199]

My  :2c: is that anyone who has even participated or had supportive thoughts about an anti-war protest let alone organized several has no place in the CF especially not in the combat arms.. I just dont understand why you would want to join if those are the beliefs you have.. all politics aside anyone right wing, centre or left wing or anything else inbetween that ever is involved in an organized protest is a moron  regardless of the cause. Go out and be proactive, holding up signs and yelling when a president of another country comes to ours does nothing but embarrass all of the other canadians. When I saw people actly so rudely and ridiculously when George W. Bush came to visit a few years back all i could do was feel shame.. I was ashamed that those fools came from the same country as me, and fear.. fear that all of us normal decent, hard working Canadians would be judged on a few crack-pot's actions.. If ever have the priveledge to defend my country in battle I sure hope to god that no one like you has anything to do with it.. Id prefer if your sort stuck to protesting or hanging out at organic coffee shops/cafes or whatever else it is you do.

 

[len173]

I know some people in the military, and combat arms, who you would call 'left wing'. However, I don't know anyone who participated in anti-war protests.

That is no reason that you shouldn't be allowed in the CF. But I would think long and hard about what the right choice for you is. You don't get to pick the mission when you sign up. The last thing the military needs is more people who feel they can select what duties they prefer, based on social and political feelings.

There is a war on right now, and you could end up  being a part of an incident, or situation that your friends back home are marching on parliament hill over.

Good luck to you.

 

[the 48th regulator]

My  :2c: is that anyone who has even participated or had supportive thoughts about an anti-war protest let alone organized several has no place in the CF especially not in the combat arms.. I just dont understand why you would want to join if those are the beliefs you have.. all politics aside anyone right wing, centre or left wing or anything else inbetween that ever is involved in an organized protest is a moron  regardless of the cause. Go out and be proactive, holding up signs and yelling when a president of another country comes to ours does nothing but embarrass all of the other canadians. When I saw people actly so rudely and ridiculously when George W. Bush came to visit a few years back all i could do was feel shame.. I was ashamed that those fools came from the same country as me, and fear.. fear that all of us normal decent, hard working Canadians would be judged on a few crack-pot's actions.. If ever have the priveledge to defend my country in battle I sure hope to god that no one like you has anything to do with it.. Id prefer if your sort stuck to protesting or hanging out at organic coffee shops/cafes or whatever else it is you do.

You do understand, that protest is one of the fundamentals of a democracy, right?  If you can not speak your mind, then what is it you have?  We do serve, so that we as citizens have that right you know.  And, because you have done it, does not exclude you from serving your nation.


I feel shame and fear in your views, actually....

It echoes the views of some countries that we are at odds with, at the moment.

dileas

tess

 

[Roy Harding]

My  :2c: is that anyone who has even participated or had supportive thoughts about an anti-war protest let alone organized several has no place in the CF especially not in the combat arms.. I just dont understand why you would want to join if those are the beliefs you have.. all politics aside anyone right wing, centre or left wing or anything else inbetween that ever is involved in an organized protest is a moron  regardless of the cause. Go out and be proactive, holding up signs and yelling when a president of another country comes to ours does nothing but embarrass all of the other canadians. When I saw people actly so rudely and ridiculously when George W. Bush came to visit a few years back all i could do was feel shame.. I was ashamed that those fools came from the same country as me, and fear.. fear that all of us normal decent, hard working Canadians would be judged on a few crack-pot's actions.. If ever have the priveledge to defend my country in battle I sure hope to god that no one like you has anything to do with it.. Id prefer if your sort stuck to protesting or hanging out at organic coffee shops/cafes or whatever else it is you do.

Get off your high horse.

People (especially young people) get involved in all kinds of things, for all kinds of reasons.  Somewhere else on this board you'll find my explanation of my "protest days".

People explore new ideas - they try to fit those ideas into what they see in the world.  Some change their minds about those ideas - that's called growth.

Your profile doesn't say much about you - but your posts indicate that you are a young guy getting ready for Basic.  Good for you.  I'm sure that you're full of piss and vinegar, and that you and your ideas are God's gift to human kind.

You know what - some OTHER young guy, who doesn't happen to think that armed conflict is the answer is ALSO full of piss and vinegar, and he's pretty sure that his ideas are God's gift to human kind.

Which one of you is right?  Neither.

Which one of you is entitled to express their ideas?  Both

Which of you is entitled to serve their country in the CF?  Both

Stop trying to prove what a MAN you are by belittling other peoples thoughts, I'd take the mature former peace-nik to war with me over a blustering, macho child anytime.

Roy Harding

 

[Smity199]

LOL.. I'm not belittling anyones views, those views belittle themselves.
and I'm far from a "macho child", As I tried to say but I guess you chose only to read what you felt like seeing so Ill repeat myself, I could care less about someones political views, for example someone could have made an identical post to this but on the polar opposite point of the political spectrum, although it rarely happens or we rarely hear about it theoretically some right wing youths could have been protesting something somewhere and I would have posted the exact same thing as I did in this situation.. what I was and am saying is that protesting ie. heckling, sitting in, and so on is moronic. It rarely accomplishes anything save infuriating those who take opposite views on the particular subject and those middle of the road type of people who are sitting at home watching it on tv, well it makes those people less sympathetic towards the cause (I know this because My mom is one of those people) and Living in B.C. we see allot of protests having to do with the Olympics but anyways my point is that yes FREEDOM OF SPEECH and the RIGHT TO PROTEST are integral parts of any democracy.. the way in which most protesters seem to protest is ineffective and moronic. I'm the kid here yet I seem like I'm trying to explain algebra to a 3 year old.. I wont argue anymore but you calling me out for "belittling others" and then continuing on to "belittle" me by calling me a "Macho child" kind of makes you a hypocrite don't you think?

 

[ltmaverick25]

LOL.. I'm not belittling anyones views, those views belittle themselves.
and I'm far from a "macho child", As I tried to say but I guess you chose only to read what you felt like seeing so Ill repeat myself, I could care less about someones political views, for example someone could have made an identical post to this but on the polar opposite point of the political spectrum, although it rarely happens or we rarely hear about it theoretically some right wing youths could have been protesting something somewhere and I would have posted the exact same thing as I did in this situation.. what I was and am saying is that protesting ie. heckling, sitting in, and so on is moronic. It rarely accomplishes anything save infuriating those who take opposite views on the particular subject and those middle of the road type of people who are sitting at home watching it on tv, well it makes those people less sympathetic towards the cause (I know this because My mom is one of those people) and Living in B.C. we see allot of protests having to do with the Olympics but anyways my point is that yes FREEDOM OF SPEECH and the RIGHT TO PROTEST are integral parts of any democracy.. the way in which most protesters seem to protest is ineffective and moronic. I'm the kid here yet I seem like I'm trying to explain algebra to a 3 year old.. I wont argue anymore but you calling me out for "belittling others" and then continuing on to "belittle" me by calling me a "Macho child" kind of makes you a hypocrite don't you think?

Its not what you are saying thats at issue, its the way you are saying it.  You cannot expect to make posts like this one, or the one previous without inciting a fiery responce.

As for protests, when I see them on TV, or I get stuck in traffic because they blocked the road or something, in all honesty I usually have the same reaction as you, it aggrevates me to no end.  However, I do not begrudge them for exercising the rights we serve to protect.  Moreover, take a look at the news.  What about whats happening in Iran right now?  They have a phony election that re-appointed a radical islam dictator.  Tens of thousands of iranian citizens are rising up to protest in Iran and let me tell you, IT IS making a difference.  You and I may not agree with an anti-war protestor, but we should always be thankful they are there, and in Iran's case, be especially supportive of those brave citizens for standing up for what they beleive in.

 

[Roy Harding]

LOL.. I'm not belittling anyones views, those views belittle themselves.
and I'm far from a "macho child", As I tried to say but I guess you chose only to read what you felt like seeing so Ill repeat myself, I could care less about someones political views, for example someone could have made an identical post to this but on the polar opposite point of the political spectrum, although it rarely happens or we rarely hear about it theoretically some right wing youths could have been protesting something somewhere and I would have posted the exact same thing as I did in this situation.. what I was and am saying is that protesting ie. heckling, sitting in, and so on is moronic. It rarely accomplishes anything save infuriating those who take opposite views on the particular subject and those middle of the road type of people who are sitting at home watching it on tv, well it makes those people less sympathetic towards the cause (I know this because My mom is one of those people) and Living in B.C. we see allot of protests having to do with the Olympics but anyways my point is that yes FREEDOM OF SPEECH and the RIGHT TO PROTEST are integral parts of any democracy.. the way in which most protesters seem to protest is ineffective and moronic. I'm the kid here yet I seem like I'm trying to explain algebra to a 3 year old.. I wont argue anymore but you calling me out for "belittling others" and then continuing on to "belittle" me by calling me a "Macho child" kind of makes you a hypocrite don't you think?

I don't recall calling you a "macho child" - read my post again.

NOW, I'm belittling you:

Learn to format your thoughts into small "chunks" of related sentences - these are called "paragraphs", usually delineated by "paragraph breaks".  This practise makes understanding your thoughts much easier for the intended recipient.

Yes indeed - "the way in which most protesters seem to protest is ineffective and moronic" - and so is the way you chose to express your thoughts on this board.


Roy

 

[ltmaverick25]

Folks I really dont think a back and forth exchange of belittling one another is going to accomplish anything here..

 

[Roy Harding]

Folks I really dont think a back and forth exchange of belittling one another is going to accomplish anything here..

You're right.

I apologize.


Roy

 

[Smity199]

lol How I format my posts has nothing to do with it but thanks for the tip, I'll try to break my thoughts into paragraphs from now on.

Ltmaverick now that you make such a good point, I do now think that the universe does have a place for everyone and I am in way grateful that some people do exercise their rights even though I may not agree with them personally.

ps. Roy harding just out of curiosity, what did you or do you do in the military?

 

[Roy Harding]

...

ps. Roy harding just out of curiosity, what did you or do you do in the military?

Check my profile.