Divining the right role, capabilities, structure, and Regimental System for Canada's Army Reserves

[FJAG]

Good idea in theory but in reality cadets should be separate because they suck up a lot of valuable space in our armouries.

One of the principle values for cadets is as a lead in to joining the reserves and one of the lead ins for the reserves is joining the regular force. Removing cadets from where they have contact with and a visual presence of the reserves is what triggers the transition Remove them from armouries and your already dismal recruiting statistics will drop further.

Most armouries could free up space by consolidating messes or by abandoning heritage buildings unfit for purpose... But it seems sometimes that the Regimental silver is a higher priority...

Agree entirely. There has been a slow move to integrating messes but the share of space is still poor. One needs to remember that these building had their origin in a time when 80% of the training took place on the parade square and a nearby empty lot and the largest piece of equipment might have been a 12 pdr. It's hard to apportion valuable space even if it is not used on a day to day basis but stands empty much of the time.

 

[dapaterson]

Inevitably these discussions turn into arguments about one's bona fides, so I will skip posting my MPRR and merely state that there continue to be units leveraging external influence to protect their facilities at the cost of their capabilities. And "leadership" that lack the ability to inspire lasting, necessary, institutional change.

In a thread on the Res F I won't point out my critiques of the Reg F (well, fine, I chase rabbits on occasion). But having seen the sausage be made, from the armory floor and from the 13th floor, I will note that ignorance of administration and management of the CAF is the usual order of business for both the Reg F and the Res F leadership. And that translates into the inertia we far too often experience.

So we fight to keep unfit for purpose facilities - which means those dollars can't be used to acquire better ones. We stall and spin and let hundreds of millions of dollars go unspent because of a lack of leadership.

The Army needs adult leadership who will commit to and execute a plan that will survive APS and ensure.

 

[quadrapiper]

Separating Cadets and Reservists is generally a very wise thing.
Yes it can be more costly - but, at the end of the day so are alcohol related incidents with minors...
*Yes some reservists are still minors I know.

Keeping the members of each physically separate makes sense. Having, say, Rocky or Vernon sitting vacant (or, equally, some facility only used by reservists) if there's a Reserve use for them at some point in the year doesn't.

 

[KevinB]

Inevitably these discussions turn into arguments about one's bona fides, so I will skip posting my MPRR and merely state that there continue to be units leveraging external influence to protect their facilities at the cost of their capabilities. And "leadership" that lack the ability to inspire lasting, necessary, institutional change.

In a thread on the Res F I won't point out my critiques of the Reg F (well, fine, I chase rabbits on occasion). But having seen the sausage be made, from the armory floor and from the 13th floor, I will note that ignorance of administration and management of the CAF is the usual order of business for both the Reg F and the Res F leadership. And that translates into the inertia we far too often experience.

So we fight to keep unfit for purpose facilities - which means those dollars can't be used to acquire better ones. We stall and spin and let hundreds of millions of dollars go unspent because of a lack of leadership.

The Army needs adult leadership who will commit to and execute a plan that will survive APS and ensure.

A LOT of ARNG Armories are in as dilapidated state as a lot of CA PRes ones. The whole State/Fed funding split can mean drastic differences in Armories and unit make ups.
Generally just an orderly room, some offices, class rooms, weapons vault and parade square. The difference is there isn't a lot that goes on there - as weekend drills, and active time are done at actual bases (other than active guard admin/HQ staff).
One goes to the VFW for a bar, not the Armories.
Virtually none of the Armories hold any significant equipment - all the A Vehicles, Artillery etc are all at either NG Camps or AD bases, where units go to train... Many have some ancient artifact (like a M1 Howitzer, M60 Tank, or M113) is on a cement pad, but that is generally it -- but they do have their Logistics vehicles - and conduct road moves with them, as well as the ability to conduct internal support deployments with those. Many do have significant simulators though - which at least for the AFV's can be networked.

 

[markppcli]

Key word in this case is probably "was".

Your barking up the wrong tree

The glorified social club view of most units have been dead since the buddies of reservists were dying in Afghanistan. Sure elements of it remain but to imply most reservists are more interested in the silver and bars is somewhat disrespectful. We want to do the job but time and time again the military prevents us from doing so in some way, shape or form. Maybe I just have an overly rosy view of my fellow reservists from 3 Div.

I was a reservist from 2004-2010. It was for sure as much a social club when I got back in 2008 as it was when I got in in 2004, and hadn’t changed much in 2010. More to the point the institution and the people are very different things: ie the elements that want to hold onto the mess silver are very rarely the folks doing the work on the armoury floor, but they do tend to be the people attending the various corps conference calls.

I haven't been in an armoury where this was the case in 10 years. Perhaps there are examples still out there where this is the case but most armouries that ratio would be flipped. Two to three rooms dedicated to messes are the usual max in armouries. There's only so much you can do with a room anyways that wasn't designed with modern IT and classrooms in mind. I think back to the "hangar" we had years ago at our armoury, problem was a GWagon couldn't fit in some of the doors, they were too low. What is a reservist supposed to do with that?

Most armouries I’ve been in had a 2:1 mess to class room ratio. Single unit ones tend to have at least two bar rooms and a single class room, multi units ones often have split messes by unit. It’s all very silly and a legacy of the 1910s.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Your barking up the wrong tree



I was a reservist from 2004-2010. It was for sure as much a social club when I got back in 2008 as it was when I got in in 2004, and hadn’t changed much in 2010. More to the point the institution and the people are very different things: ie the elements that want to hold onto the mess silver are very rarely the folks doing the work on the armoury floor, but they do tend to be the people attending the various corps conference calls.



Most armouries I’ve been in had a 2:1 mess to class room ratio. Single unit ones tend to have at least two bar rooms and a single class room, multi units ones often have split messes by unit. It’s all very silly and a legacy of the 1910s.

Well said.

Culture eats strategy for breakfast, and the militia culture is a strong one

 

[MilEME09]

A little update on 3 Div's purchase of side by sides to augment the critical VOR at ARes Armoured units - they're kinda useless. Someone who procured them has the bright idea of buying cheap tyres with no standing mechanism to replace them efficiently - they're getting shredded by deadfall when they leave black tracks. Further - they're limited to 40km/h or less if carrying 1000lbs +...so between kit, ammo and bodies, they'll probably be able to carry two dudes or three dudes if they have no supplies. I respect they tried to do something to help, but they sure missed by going with Ranger 1000s with dump boxes.

Edit: Forgot to add they can't be altered in any way, minus wrapping them. Can't even paint the stark white hood. Warranty...

Can't be altered? Sounds like out F250 MRTs, can't drill into the pod in the back so we can't add shelves, tie down points for a tool box etc

 

[PrairieFella]

Can't be altered? Sounds like out F250 MRTs, can't drill into the pod in the back so we can't add shelves, tie down points for a tool box etc

Sounds about right. It's fucking stupid. But alas, at least with some wheels we can practice taking positions and vehicle nav. Better than nothing but not by much.

 

[MJP]

A little update on 3 Div's purchase of side by sides to augment the critical VOR at ARes Armoured units - they're kinda useless. Someone who procured them has the bright idea of buying cheap tyres with no standing mechanism to replace them efficiently - they're getting shredded by deadfall when they leave black tracks. Further - they're limited to 40km/h or less if carrying 1000lbs +...so between kit, ammo and bodies, they'll probably be able to carry two dudes or three dudes if they have no supplies. I respect they tried to do something to help, but they sure missed by going with Ranger 1000s with dump boxes.

Probably less of a bright idea someone had, rather more likely that decent off-road tires just weren't part of the statement of requirements. It's amazing what gets missed in a statement of requirements that no one really thinks of until the rubber meets the road (pun fully intended)

 

[PrairieFella]

Probably less of a bright idea someone had, rather more likely that decent off-road tires just weren't part of the statement of requirements. It's amazing what gets missed in a statement of requirements that no one really thinks of until the rubber meets the road (pun fully intended)

You're probably not wrong. I know they're significantly more expensive but I'd rather 4 RZRs compared to 6 rangers that are way less useful.

 

[Remius]

Your barking up the wrong tree



I was a reservist from 2004-2010. It was for sure as much a social club when I got back in 2008 as it was when I got in in 2004, and hadn’t changed much in 2010. More to the point the institution and the people are very different things: ie the elements that want to hold onto the mess silver are very rarely the folks doing the work on the armoury floor, but they do tend to be the people attending the various corps conference calls.



Most armouries I’ve been in had a 2:1 mess to class room ratio. Single unit ones tend to have at least two bar rooms and a single class room, multi units ones often have split messes by unit. It’s all very silly and a legacy of the 1910s.

I can’t speak too much about other units.

We have two units, in what is likely the oldest drill hall still in use in Canada. Three messes combined between both units. BOR combined space. company offices shared, RQs are split but kit is spread out between the armouries and sea containers 30 mins away and No real amount of parking, no vehicle park, hardly any DWAN stations. Absolutely unsuitable for modern training. Too small for one unit let alone two. Attempts have been made to have one unit move to no avail. I know for a fact that both units would welcome a more suitable space. Whenever we get told the same thing “maybe you should not be married to your building , mess etc”. We say sure. What is on offer? Crickets. Because nothing is. We are stuck with what we have for the foreseeable future. We can’t even put a nail in wall for a picture without heritage Canada approval so it isn’t exactly easy to just turn a mess into a fully functional classroom.

Our Brigade’s arty unit had its drill hall collapse 15 years ago and are currently in iso trailers and sprung shelters since then…so no I don’t anyone is serious about any PRES infrastructure at this time.

Give me an empty high school. Repurpose it and leave other things to the heritage buildings.

Now on the flip side I have heard that one armouries somewhere in Canada that has something like 20k square feet of mess space split between 4 units including an additional mess space for a specific band. But that could just be rumour…

 

[markppcli]

I can’t speak too much about other units.

We have two units, in what is likely the oldest drill hall still in use in Canada. Three messes combined between both units. BOR combined space. company offices shared, RQs are split but kit is spread out between the armouries and sea containers 30 mins away and No real amount of parking, no vehicle park, hardly any DWAN stations. Absolutely unsuitable for modern training. Too small for one unit let alone two. Attempts have been made to have one unit move to no avail. I know for a fact that both units would welcome a more suitable space. Whenever we get told the same thing “maybe you should not be married to your building , mess etc”. We say sure. What is on offer? Crickets. Because nothing is. We are stuck with what we have for the foreseeable future. We can’t even put a nail in wall for a picture without heritage Canada approval so it isn’t exactly easy to just turn a mess into a fully functional classroom.

Our Brigade’s arty unit had its drill hall collapse 15 years ago and are currently in iso trailers and sprung shelters since then…so no I don’t anyone is serious about any PRES infrastructure at this time.

Give me an empty high school. Repurpose it and leave other things to the heritage buildings.

Now on the flip side I have heard that one armouries somewhere in Canada that has something like 20k square feet of mess space split between 4 units including an additional mess space for a specific band. But that could just be rumour…

Bear n mine I spent the majority of my career on a base with a massive lecture training facility, with lockers, sims, class rooms, a drill square, right beside the base clothing stores. Meanwhile we had two reserve armouries a 20 minute drive away. Why?

I’m presently on a base 30 minutes from a reserve armouries. They could very easily parade out of our multi purpose training facility, and store their guns across the street. Why?

This weird disconnect we have is the biggest problem the CAF has, beyond equipment of course.

 

[Remius]

Bear n mine I spent the majority of my career on a base with a massive lecture training facility, with lockers, sims, class rooms, a drill square, right beside the base clothing stores. Meanwhile we had two reserve armouries a 20 minute drive away. Why?

I’m presently on a base 30 minutes from a reserve armouries. They could very easily parade out of our multi purpose training facility, and store their guns across the street. Why?

This weird disconnect we have is the biggest problem the CAF has, beyond equipment of course.

If we were close to facilities like that that would be great, but we aren’t unfortunately. There is a half empty HQ across the street that would really work well for a variety of training or at least class rooms. Not going to happen. That was asked a few years ago. They have other plans for it apparently…like condos

personally like I said, a repurposed high school in a good catchment area or multiples of that could work well enough. Failing that build a super armoury that jointly used by the CAF and a few partner agencies.

Again, my situation, not everyone else’s though.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Give me an empty high school. Repurpose it and leave other things to the heritage buildings.

Now on the flip side I have heard that one armouries somewhere in Canada that has something like 20k square feet of mess space split between 4 units including an additional mess space for a specific band. But that could just be rumour…

But just consider the craftsmanship, the crenelations, the faux Tudor splendor

https://www.pc.gc.ca/apps/DFHD/page_fhbro_eng.aspx?id=4475

And here's a high school example which, from all accounts, is a great little company level location for B Coy RM Rang in Prince George ...

Meadows Armoury - Rocky Mountain Rangers Bravo Company · 687 Dornbierer Crescent, Prince George, BC V2M 5Y5, Canada

★★★☆☆ · Military base

www.google.com

 

[ueo]

I can’t speak too much about other units.

We have two units, in what is likely the oldest drill hall still in use in Canada. Three messes combined between both units. BOR combined space. company offices shared, RQs are split but kit is spread out between the armouries and sea containers 30 mins away and No real amount of parking, no vehicle park, hardly any DWAN stations. Absolutely unsuitable for modern training. Too small for one unit let alone two. Attempts have been made to have one unit move to no avail. I know for a fact that both units would welcome a more suitable space. Whenever we get told the same thing “maybe you should not be married to your building , mess etc”. We say sure. What is on offer? Crickets. Because nothing is. We are stuck with what we have for the foreseeable future. We can’t even put a nail in wall for a picture without heritage Canada approval so it isn’t exactly easy to just turn a mess into a fully functional classroom.

Our Brigade’s arty unit had its drill hall collapse 15 years ago and are currently in iso trailers and sprung shelters since then…so no I don’t anyone is serious about any PRES infrastructure at this time.

Give me an empty high school. Repurpose it and leave other things to the heritage buildings.

Now on the flip side I have heard that one armouries somewhere in Canada that has something like 20k square feet of mess space split between 4 units including an additional mess space for a specific band. But that could just be rumour…

Moss park?

 

[PrairieFella]

Moss park?

Moss Park Armoury opened in the 60s.

 

[PrairieFella]

Bear n mine I spent the majority of my career on a base with a massive lecture training facility, with lockers, sims, class rooms, a drill square, right beside the base clothing stores. Meanwhile we had two reserve armouries a 20 minute drive away. Why?

I’m presently on a base 30 minutes from a reserve armouries. They could very easily parade out of our multi purpose training facility, and store their guns across the street. Why?

This weird disconnect we have is the biggest problem the CAF has, beyond equipment of course.

17 Wing won't let reserve maintainers use their empty maintenance bays, nevermind training facilities. Myself and other reservists in the area have often wanted to run courses off the base but it's often not worth the aggravation. I 100% agree that facility sharing should be streamlined and formalized, infrastructure gatekeeping keeps the institution poorer for it.

 

[KevinB]

I’m of the opinion that Reserve Armories should be Company positions at the top end, and Platoon at the low end (and potentially a composite Platoon of different trade sections).

Ditch the weeknight ‘training’, concentrate on weekends and summer (or area relative seasonal periods).

 

[Furniture]

If we were close to facilities like that that would be great, but we aren’t unfortunately. There is a half empty HQ across the street that would really work well for a variety of training or at least class rooms. Not going to happen. That was asked a few years ago. They have other plans for it apparently…like condos

personally like I said, a repurposed high school in a good catchment area or multiples of that could work well enough. Failing that build a super armoury that jointly used by the CAF and a few partner agencies.

Again, my situation, not everyone else’s though.

Not to derail the ResF pity party, but that HQ across the street is half empty because the RegF has the same infrastructure problems the ResF has. It was supposed to get a mid-life refit in the 90s that was cancelled, and in 2020 when the majority of the occupants left the building for a new HQ, the work was supposed to happen. Some major world event happened around then, and the work didn't get done...

If the GoC wanted to reach our 2% budget goal, they could easily just fix all of the broken infrastructure we have now, they could likely get to 4% or more if they build infrastructure that was fit for purpose in a modern military.

 

[PrairieFella]

I’m of the opinion that Reserve Armories should be Company positions at the top end, and Platoon at the low end (and potentially a composite Platoon of different trade sections).

Ditch the weeknight ‘training’, concentrate on weekends and summer (or area relative seasonal periods).

A lot of good work can get done on a weeknight, there should be a mandatory summer concentration AND normally scheduled training. Not like we're hurting for pay budgets, we're understrength as is haha.