Petard said:
To David
I was checking your posts during the debate (Tues Night? you must've been blackberrying it I guess), it seems to me the whole thing got started because the Minister of Defence caught the NDP without having their homework done, and they didn't like it.
Dawn Black I believe started off with a question about what the cost was for the Excalibur rounds that had been fired in Afghanistan, and O'Connor was given an "aha" by them since he knew, and so would anyone else if they researched it, that none had even been shipped to theatre.
I think the NDP got miffed at being shown up for not checking their story thoroughly, so this is somewhat of a smoke screen to cover that gaff.
In fact, it was precisely the reverse. The Defence Minister was caught without his homework. Black and her staff have done a tremendous amount of homework and had indeed checked their story thoroughly. How do I know that? Pardon me for the long post, but here's the answer (All the quotes here are taken from Parliamentary documents, online at http:www.parl.gc.ca):
On Sept. 19, Black put the following question on the Commons Order Paper
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Q-1082 — September 19, 2006 — Ms. Black (New Westminster—Coquitlam) — With regard to the Canadian presence in Afghanistan: (a) what is the allotment of money set aside in the fiscal framework for the remainder of the mission; (b) how does the mission effect the fiscal framework; (c) what new weapons systems have been purchased, or will be purchased for the remainder of the mission; (d) was there a M777 howitzer purchased for the mission in Kandahar and, if so, what was the cost of the system; (e) does the Canadian Forces use the Excalibur ordinance system developed by Raytheon and, if so, what is the unit cost per shell of the Excalibur ordinance system; (f) what is the added cost associated with the deployment of a leopard tank squadron; and (g) what are the project names and budgets, itemized by project, for each foreign aid project that Canada is financing in Afghanistan?
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Under the procedural rules in the House of Commons, the government must answer these kinds of questions within 45 days or they are automatically referred to a Commons committee. (Committees have the legal power to subpoena witnesses and, so, can compel answers).
Black had not yet received her answer when, on October 18, O'Connor and Hillier appeared at the the Commons Committee on National Defence. The transcript of that meeting is at http://cmte.parl.gc.ca/cmte/CommitteePublication.aspx?SourceId=178814#Int-1702785 . During that meeting, this exchange took place:
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Ms. Dawn Black: The previous government bought the M777 howitzers and the Excalibur munitions for use in Kandahar. I'd like to know what the precise cost of each shell is, if you could get that to me. Do you know that?
Hon. Gordon O'Connor: No, I wouldn't, off the top of my head. We'll get that number for you.
Ms. Dawn Black: It has been denied to me when I've asked for it.
Hon. Gordon O'Connor: It has, has it? The price of a shell?
Gen R.J. Hillier: Actually, you're asking the price of the Excalibur round.
Ms. Dawn Black: Yes.
Gen R.J. Hillier: It's an expensive round.
Ms. Dawn Black: Yes, I know that.
Gen R.J. Hillier: I don't have the precise dollar figure at hand, but as the minister has said, we'll provide the minister the information on it.
Ms. Dawn Black: Thank you. I'll look forward to getting it.
Gen R.J. Hillier: Could I just say that it's an expensive round because it's a precision round. Going back to the question you asked about making sure we're not driving people away from the government, etc., because of things like collateral damage, this is one of the things we want to precisely use against those who are bringing violence against us or against Afghans only, and therefore it's a very expensive round. I'll provide the minister the cost information.
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So that was on October 18. Some time between that point and the debate last Tuesday night, Black received the answer to her Order Paper question. But she wanted that answer on the record, in the House of Commons, from the Defence Minister. So, during last Tuesday's debate, she said, at about 7:40 in the evening:
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Ms. Dawn Black: ... I also asked through a written question to the minister, and I asked him in committee, and my office has even used the access to information system to try to find out the cost of a particular item of departmental spending. How much did Canada pay last November for each Excalibur round to be used with the M777? The government spent $5.5 million for these shells. That is about the same amount of money that was spent on the court challenges program, in fact a little bit more than that, before it was cut.
The minister promised me at the defence committee that he would find out this information, so I am wondering if he could share that with us now. What is the exact cost of each one of those shells?
Hon. Gordon O'Connor: Mr. Chair, the hon. member had a number of questions. I hope I can keep track of them. The total cost to send the tanks, the cannon mortar and the engineers to Afghanistan was $189 million and that was the transportation plus what was necessary to get all the equipment up to standard for operations. With respect to Excalibur, we do not own nor do we have any Excaliburs in the armed forces. I think someone is still trying to find out what the theoretical price is from a company but we do not have any rounds in the armed forces.
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But, in fact, Black had done her homework and actually received the information she was seeking.
Indeed O'Connor's own department had tabled the information in response to her Order Paper question. She was simply asking the Minister in the House of Commons so that the Minister could put it on the record. She was surprised, needless to say, that -- even though General Hillier and Defence Department Deputy Minister Ward Elcock were sitting right in front of O'Connor for this entire debate -- O'Connor could not provide the figures. So Black left the Commons -- I was there and watching the whole thing -- and went back to her office, got the information provided to her by O'Connor's department, photocopied it, and went back to the House of Commons. She didn't get another chance to speak until a couple of hours later but, before she did, she crossed the floor of the House and I saw her give O'Connor some documents -- documents which I later found out contained the information about the Excaliburs that Black had been given by O'Connor's own department -- and I saw O'Connor thank her.
Then Black stood up and asked this:
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Ms. Dawn Black: ..so now I am asking the minister, is he saying that we do not have these shells, or is he not about to reveal the cost of the shells? Did the government table this information in the House of Commons in error? Is the minister not informed by his own department? What is the cost of each of these shells, please?
Hon. Gordon O'Connor: Mr. Chair, I am advised that if we have the shells, and when we had the shells, they would cost about $150,000 each.
Ms. Dawn Black: Mr. Chair, I think that indicates we do have the shells. The information was tabled in the House of Commons and I do have the documents here. We spent $5.5 million to get them. During the last round of questions, the minister gave us the incremental costs of the mission to 2009, but I would like to know what the full cost is to DND. It is something that his department does track. It is published in the report on plans and priorities. I wonder if he could give us that information now. I have a sense that the minister or the department are lowballing the figures and using rather selective accounting. How much exactly are we spending?
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At this point, I saw O'Connor quickly confer with Hillier. Black sat down and there was a moment of silence while O'Connor appeared to be talking to Hillier and Elcock. Then, he replied:
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Hon. Gordon O'Connor: Mr. Chair, before I answer that, I am going to answer the Excalibur question. Apparently we are going to receive three rounds for trial. We have no rounds. That is correct. We have none. We are going to receive three rounds for trial in the next few weeks, and the plan is, in February 2007, to acquire 27 more rounds if these three rounds work out. It is correct at the moment that we have no rounds.
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