Counter recruiting

[Remius]

I hope this hasn't already been touched on.  If it has please delete or move.

http://operationobjection.org/

I find it intersting that their national convention is the Nov 11th weekend.  Should be interesting.  There will be hundreds of CF personnel in uniform and countless other Canadians paying tribute that day in Ottawa.  I wonder if they'll come over to make a stink at the war memorial. 

 

[JesseWZ]

I wonder if they'll come over to make a stink at the war memorial. 

If they do, it would be caught on national television for sure, and doubtless would not advance their cause much if they act without integrity. However I suppose the old adage of their being no such thing as bad press works in this scenario as well. 

 

[Harris]

Might be a good idea to let your unit recruiters know about the possibility of these types of folks showing up to events.

 

[Trinity]

I love their little poster...

It shows a pic of a guy from Abu Ghraib (Iraq) on it.. but
clearly states get out of Afghanistan...???

 

[jimmy742]

I am personally acquainted with a few of these people and, to them, there is no difference between Iraq and Afghanistan. Sadly, the first casualty in any sort of thing of this nature is the truth.

 

[paracowboy]

I love their little poster...

It shows a pic of a guy from Abu Ghraib (Iraq) on it.. but
clearly states get out of Afghanistan...???

I am personally acquainted with a few of these people and, to them, there is no difference between Iraq and Afghanistan. 

which seems to provide more evidence in my belief that the over-whelming majority of the "Left" are extremely racist, and over-compensating. As a brown (okay, sort of a taupe, more than anything) dude, myself, I prefer the honest hatred of a skinhead or neo-Nazi, to the sickeningly patronising of the White Man's Guilt-ridden liberal types. At least the overt racist and I can get in a scrap and scowl at each other over beers and bruises, at opposite ends of the bar.

 

[North Star]

I stumbled on their website a few days ago, and decided to read their pam.

Basically, they seem to think the CF is the USMC, that Canada is the US, etc. Or maybe they just cut-and-past their parent American organization's stuff.

I remember reading a piece on terrorism in Algeria. Turns out that most radical secular nationalist terror groups slowly changed into radical jihadist islamists. The author's point was that they cared more about the group and preserving it instead of their purported ideology. I think it's the same with these guys - they're a Canadian sub-group of a larger American organization that doesn't really care about facts, arguments, etc.

Read their website, and you get to see all sorts of fallacies at work, including the "Red Herring" and the "Strawman". Oh, and you'll get some downright lies too!

 

[Zell_Dietrich]

Thank you for bringing this to my attention.   I know allot of NDPers,  anti-war people and I regularly have run-ins with some rather passionate people who oppose Canada's involvement in that particular UN mission. I do my best to keep up with what they're coming out with and this to me is new information and I'm now reading their material.  I think I'll have to add some more points to my memorised quick rebuttal points.  :warstory:

With that said some of their media is funny!  http://operationobjection.org/crtv.html Anti-Recruitment Ad: Runner for example.  Now,  I know a little bit about copywrite infringement,  but ...  I assume they are duplicating/altering without prior permission of the CF for the last one right?

EDIT:  oops,  I thought they had altered it like they did with a voice over for the American one. 

 

[Zell_Dietrich]

"General Hillier made the aims of Operation Connection crystal clear at a defence association conference in February 2006: "We've got to make recruiting every service man and woman's business and I mean this. Going from 300 recruiters at present to very quickly 30,000 recruiters and then eventually to 80,000 recruiters touching every community, geographical and ethnic, in Canada. And we're moving from a passive approach on recruiting where essentially we sat around waiting for you to come to us to a more active and aggressive one...""  http://operationobjection.org/about.html

I respectfully submit that Canada's armed forces is not even close to being the size where 80,000 recruiters is a long term number. Our entire force would have to be of only  recruiters.  Then I remembered: “Recruiting is everybody's business. I expect every sailor, soldier, airman and airwoman to recognize their role as a potential CF recruiter...”—General Rick Hillier, Chief of the Defence Staff  ( http://www.forces.gc.ca/hr/cfpn/engraph/3_06/3_06_admhrmil_op-connection_e.asp )

If the rest of their argument is as poorly condtructed as "He wants everyone to become a recruiter,  we are going to have 80,000 recruiters in Canada",  well I'll continue to read their pdf files.  I'm feeling better about this.

 

[career_radio-checker]

I actually came across this a few weeks ago and just quietly sent it to some of the recruiters as int.
Well time has past and this is a growing debate that needs to be brought into the spotlight with a good rebuttal otherwise we could face a lot of unfounded hatred at our universities. It's just starting at my university

This is my favorite part:

O'Keefe wasn't aware that areservists in the military don't get deployed to Afghanistan unless they volunteer.

He admitted he was probably confusing Canada's reservists with the U.S. government's call-up of reservists and the National Guard who are fighting in the Iraq War.

That misconception alone gets tiring for David Yalden-Thomson, the Forces' senior recruiter in B.C. In fact, Yalden-Thomson said, reservists who want to go to Afghanistan may never get deployed.

"We literally can't take all the reservists who have volunteered to go because we still need that tight core of the [full-time] force because they are the ones really trained for it."

http://www.vancourier.com/issues06/095206/news/095206nn10.html


This is posted as a link in their media section http://www.operationobjection.org/media.html

Its funny because they use it as one of their sources but it proves the fallacy of one of their principle arguments that students are duped into thinking they wont go over seas when they sign up for the Reserves. I don't think they really take the time to read their sources.

Another funny part is this graph
talk about taking the CDS out of context. Hillier just suggested that all CF members take a more proactive role in representing the CF but these guys think there are going to be 80 000 recruiters on their campus.

 

[North Star]

Career_radio-checker - I know...I had a good laugh too. Problem is for institutions that are supposed to generate critical thinkers, many university students succomb to the simplest of fallacies.

 

[Zarathustra]

I don't know what to think. Canada is a free country with an all volunteer armed force. If you don't like it, you don't have to join. If you're OK with it, you're free to apply.

I'm really not a big fan of their no recruiter on campus program. Regardless of your opinion of the military, you want to have smart people in it. The more you hate it, the more you'll want to limit it to your best and brightest. I think they don't see where their policy would lead.

 

[George Wallace]

: ;D

This just brings to mind the results of their campaign and the 'runaways' living under the bridge by the Chateau Laurier.

 

[Kunu]

Oh, this just gave me the laugh of my day, I was laughing my ass off after seeing this one.

http://operationobjection.org/war-free-schools/RecruitmentPoster2.pdf

Their misquoting is top notch too.  Here, Gen. Hilier's famous line of "...our job is to be able to kill people" had "be able to" conveniently dropped out. 

http://operationobjection.org/war-free-schools/CR_Postcard.pdf

Also, I don't have a copy of the Lonely Planet Guide to Central Asia, but WTF would a traveller's guide have the route for a planned oil pipeline as the boldest and most significant line on the map?  At least Photoshop a fake legend in.

http://operationobjection.org/war-free-schools/index.html

Morons.

 

[GDawg]

Don't just sit here and bitch about them, write these people letters!

Their errors and lies need to be documented, rebuked, and thrown back into their faces!
If they get more letters against their idiocy than in favor of it, they might just wake up and smell the reality.

I don't take too kindly to these groups who act as campus "thought police" by banning anyone presenting views, ideas, or experiences that are contrary to their own, especially if they profess to be guardians of peace and freedom.

If you do decide to write to them, don't be rude or obscene, this will only embolden them.
You'll do better to make them think by presenting an articulate and researched counter-argument than an "F-bomb" and accusations about their parentage.

 

[career_radio-checker]

I alredy did Dawg... about 2 weeks ago.
I haven't received anything back in response and their website remains the same. Therefore I conclude they would rather show ignorance than admit to being wrong.

 

[Teddy Ruxpin]

I'll freely admit that I'm getting disheartened by people like this and by the media's slavish search for controversy.

Groups like "Counter Recruiting" offer such a twisted view of what the CF is doing that it defies description.  The CDS is misquoted, statistics manipulated, facts altered, false comparisons made and CF operations likened to war crimes without a peep from a disinterested media.

Yet the same media will rush to quote one or two disgruntled relatives of serving soldiers, will parade a failed Reservist as a "war resister" and will quote politically-motivated interest groups as "defence experts", all in an effort to stir controversy.

I never subscribed to a left-wing conspiracy theory and consider myself relatively middle of the road, but I find myself questioning the motivation and bias of the bulk of Canada's mass media organizations, particularly in the Afghan context.  I suppose that they'll have their chance on October 28th, when the much-ballyhooed Day of Protest occurs.  Hopefully, they'll ask as many questions of the protesters and their fellow-travellers as they have of supporters of our mission in Afghanistan.  The cynic in me, though, says they won't bother and all we'll see is picture after picture of "ordinary Canadians" (heh) opposing the military without any attempt whatsoever to question their rationale or facts - many of which have been thoroughly debunked here.

 

[Remius]

Don't just sit here and ***** about them, write these people letters!

Their errors and lies need to be documented, rebuked, and thrown back into their faces!
If they get more letters against their idiocy than in favor of it, they might just wake up and smell the reality.

I don't take too kindly to these groups who act as campus "thought police" by banning anyone presenting views, ideas, or experiences that are contrary to their own, especially if they profess to be guardians of peace and freedom.

If you do decide to write to them, don't be rude or obscene, this will only embolden them.
You'll do better to make them think by presenting an articulate and researched counter-argument than an "F-bomb" and accusations about their parentage.

You know, I don't think that will work.  I think the average Canadian that might be against the what we do, or the average fence sitter could probably be reasoned with and they might at least listened provided our arguments were sound and backed up.

However the people belonging to these groups have made up their minds long ago.  Whether it be us, the police, the government etc etc.  They basically can't be reasoned with because they won't allow reason into their mindset.  It doesen't matter how many stats you dredge up or explain to them that you've been there, all they see is a uniform and a person trained to kill.  I've been in many situations were these morons won't listen or even give anything you say any credence.  Here is a sample of some of the crazy stuff I've been told.

1. We killed babies on peace keeping tours (namely Cyprus  :rofl btw that one came from that joker Chrethien strangled some years back
2. Were all brainwashed
3. NAFTA is really an arms trade deal  This one was from that same joker's daughter
4. Oh, some guy didn't believe me that we didn't have a don't ask don't tell policy

So on and so on.  They don't listen.  At the last G20 summit, most people interviewed didn't even know what the G20 was.  But it must hav been something bad because all the left wing groups were out to protest something only a handful truly knew about.

Groups like this that use lies and misconceptions can't be reasoned with.  You want to write a letter?  Writer to the basic Canadian who may not know what we do.  If someone comes to talk to you about why we are there, tell them what we are about.  People are afraid of what's going on.  Ease their fear by telling them what you believe in.  Heck, Nov 11th is rolling around, why not stop to chat when someone asks you why you are in uniform.  Sounds corny i know, but you know what?  It's the average Canadian that needs to hear the truth, because they'll listen.  Not these groups, they never will.

Ok ok I'm getting off the podium.

 

[a_majoor]

We can send these factual rebuttals to the MSM in letters and emails, although I expect they will be ignored. On the other hand, may bloggers are right wing and would love to stick it right in the MSM and "Counter recruiting"'s eye. The factual information to rebut their points is like gold to the bloggers. Send them some coin!

 

[career_radio-checker]

Groups like this that use lies and misconceptions can't be reasoned with.  You want to write a letter?  Writer to the basic Canadian who may not know what we do.  If someone comes to talk to you about why we are there, tell them what we are about.  People are afraid of what's going on.  Ease their fear by telling them what you believe in.  Heck, Nov 11th is rolling around, why not stop to chat when someone asks you why you are in uniform.  Sounds corny i know, but you know what?  It's the average Canadian that needs to hear the truth, because they'll listen.  Not these groups, they never will.

Ok ok I'm getting off the podium.

To expand on Cantor's thought about writting letters. I suggest we write letters to the Universities which "Operation Objection" is targeting. More specifically, write to the University Newspapers who suprisingly list both sides of the debate and run weekly issues which students ACTUALLY read.

A list of those newspapers can be found here:
http://dir.yahoo.com/News_and_Media/College_and_University/Newspapers/By_Region/Countries/Canada/

Most of the University populations are "fence sitters"-- too worried about next weeks mid-term to really care what's going on. It's the small minute population of left leaning individuals who get elected into positions of the student body government (actually its only their friends who vote them in. Of 5000 students in my faculty only about 300 voted  : ). Naturally, these are the loudest bunch and are always standing up before class wanting you to sign petitions, letting you know about speakers, going to rallies etc... And always having some kind of 'wisdom' to pass on in the school newspapers. Sadly, being the loudest, they are also the only voice heard on campus and so many of the fence sitters are joinging their camp under misconceptions and lies.

Like Cantor said, you won't convince this core of lunatics even if you stuck them on a plane to Afghanistan and made them see this stuff with their own eyes. Who you might have a chance with is the other 98% school populations. And the best way to reach those students is through the same avenues the anti-war / anti-recruiters use. The most accessible of which is the school newspaper.

To prove my point I will draw your attention to a editorial printed in the "Excalibur"-- York University's newspaper.
http://www.excal.on.ca/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2221&Itemid=2

Dear Editor,

    Last week, Excalibur published a "Letter to the Editor" in which Joe Assenza compares Canadian liberation forces during the Holocaust to troops currently being deployed to occupy Afghanistan.
    As both my grandfather and great-grandfather were veterans of both world wars, I find this a grossly inaccurate and an offensive comparison, to say the least. I have nothing but respect for veterans like those in my family who fought against the spread of fascism.
    As for economic coercion, just because one doesn't understand a term doesn't mean that it is "made up." Assenza actually hits the nail right on the head in saying that members of the military are "fighting so we do not have to." Those of us who can afford to stay here in Canada and pay our tuition fees won't have to go risk our lives in Afghanistan.
    Education is a right. Crippling debt is unacceptable. Tuition fees are too high, and 9,522 York students have signed YFS petitions supporting this position.
    Using "get a free education" as a marketing tool to convince students to join the military is unjust. The government is creating a financial need amongst students by under-financing education and then showing up on campus to tell them the military is the way out. This is the crux of economic coercion.
    I have been elected to the YFS with a mandate to advocate for equity, human rights and fair access to education. Opposing on-campus recruitment of economically desperate students to fight an imperialist war fits nicely with this mandate, in my humble opinion. Military recruitment would be a different ball game if education was free, and if we were protecting Canadians instead of participating in military occupations of autonomous nations. If you disagree with me, that doesn't make me a "dictator." That means we live in a democracy.
    We are at a critical point in Canadian history and students have an important role to play in shaping Canadian society. We can choose the path of our neighbour to the South - that harbours tuition fees that few can afford and would-be students from the poorest communities dying overseas in the hopes of eventually being able to finance their education and return to school - or we can have the courage to forge our own path.
    Students currently make up 40 per cent of Canadian reserve forces. Forty Canadian soldiers have died in Afghanistan already. These women and men will never get to finish their education. I say the best way we can support our troops is by bringing them home. And in the meantime, let's keep our campus free of our government's coercive recruitment tactics.

-Corrie Sakaluk

Enraged? Good. But don't waste your flaming here, you'd only be preaching to the choir (plus the mods hate that). Pick a paper and start writing.