Cold War Anti-Armour

[Tango24B]

Hello Gentlemen,

I am hoping someone with the "way back" machine can shed some light on old school Anti-Armour in Germany.

In the 1960s 3 Mech Cdo used both the M113 with 106 mm RR and the M113 with the SS-11 missiles. How many M113s with the SS-11 were in service between Germany and Canada? Was this a Platoon or Company sized unit with the 106 and SS-11?

Does anyone have any images or info on the M113s with the SS-11 and how they performed or were tracked from the M113?

Any info would be appreciated as these appear to be a very unique weapon system during Canada's involvement in the Cold War.

 

[Danjanou]

Before my time (TOW generation) but if memory serves re orbat. Late 1970s early 1980’s the ADP in 3RCR (and presumably in the R22Re too) had 18 M-113s. Initially and I’m sure this is in Sean Maloney’s War Without  Battles the history of 27 CIB/ 4 CMBG/CFE. The 36 vehicles and weapons systems were supposed to be divided into 6 platoons of 6 each, one platoon for each of the 3 Bns and a Bde Anti-tank Coy  of 3 platoons. When the Bde was scaled down the allotment of vehicles/weapons wasn’t hence the beefed up ADPs .

Edit:I just pulled my copy of War Without Battles off of the shelf and there are pics of M-113s and jeeps with 106mm and ENTACS on them.

And as always Google and grognards and model builders have the answers.
http://www.armouredacorn.com/orbatscdnmod.html

http://www.canadiansoldiers.com/organization/orgformations/4cmbg.htm

http://www.network54.com/Forum/169232/thread/1327617906/Berlin+Wall+Crisis+Canadian+Centurion

http://www.network54.com/Forum/169232/thread/1023024634/106+Recoiless+Jeep+in+Cdn+service

http://www.network54.com/Forum/169232/

 

[Tango24B]

Thanks for the info and the ORBAT breakdown.

I had done a bunch of Google searches already and had seen all the links you provided....actually I wrote all the text in the third link you provided....it is fiction and based on a notional version of the Centurion....remember, don't trust everything you read on the web at face value.

I found an old January 1971 edition of "Der Kanadier" showing a B&W image of a 3 Mech Cdo M113 firing the SS-11 at Graf....so at least I know they were still in service in 1971!

 

[Old Sweat]

In the early sixties the Canadian Army was very, very concerned about the Warsaw Pact's preponderance in armour and undertook a major re-organization. In 1963 in Gagetown the 3 CIBG exercise included an anti-tank trial with a brigade anti-tank company. (I believe the exercise was titled Tribulation. The pace was hectic and periodically we would receive a stand fast. At these points RCAF Lancaster photo reconnaissance aircraft would photograph the exercise area for use by the Op Research folks in AHQ.) It was determined that a brigade anti-tank company was the best available solution. Out of this came a decision to convert 3 R22R to an anti-tank battalion and Cie B was stationed in Fort Anne near Werl in the 4 CIBG area. The company had four platoons, three of which were mixed 106mm and Entac ATGM, while the fourth platoon had 15 SS11s. These were originally mounted on 3/4 ton trucks, but eventually received M113A1 modified as launcher vehicles.

 

[Danjanou]

....remember, don't trust everything you read on the web at face value.

besides porn right 8)

As I said there were a couple of B&W photos in Maloney's book , although copies of that are hard to find.  One of the two SME's of that era OS is here now so I'm sure Mr Campbell will be along shortly.

 

[Tango24B]

besides porn right 8)

As I said there were a couple of B&W photos in Maloney's book , although copies of that are hard to find.  One of the two SME's of that era OS is here now so I'm sure Mr Campbell will be along shortly.

Ain't that the truth. How would have the Combat Arms functioned without porn in every vehicle in the field?

I will try to dig up a copy of the book, thanks again!

 

[fraserdw]

In the early sixties the Canadian Army was very, very concerned about the Warsaw Pact's preponderance in armour and undertook a major re-organization. In 1963 in Gagetown the 3 CIBG exercise included an anti-tank trial with a brigade anti-tank company. (I believe the exercise was titled Tribulation. The pace was hectic and periodically we would receive a stand fast. At these points RCAF Lancaster photo reconnaissance aircraft would photograph the exercise area for use by the Op Research folks in AHQ.) It was determined that a brigade anti-tank company was the best available solution. Out of this came a decision to convert 3 R22R to an anti-tank battalion and Cie B was stationed in Fort Anne near Werl in the 4 CIBG area. The company had four platoons, three of which were mixed 106mm and Entac ATGM, while the fourth platoon had 15 SS11s. These were originally mounted on 3/4 ton trucks, but eventually received M113A1 modified as launcher vehicles.

One of the most interesting posts I read on here!

 

[Tango24B]

One of the most interesting posts I read on here!

I agree...very informative information!

 

[Old Sweat]

Thanks, guys. At the time the infantry battalions were training to fight under a nuclear threat in Europe. Therefore frontages were wide and companies could be expected to fight with open flanks. Each company had a support weapons section that included two jeep-mounted 106mm and the battalion had an anti-tank platoon with at least four more 106s. The company level weapons were for protection of the subunit, while the battalion's RRs were supposed to be sited on critical approaches. The brigade anti-tank company's assets were used in the same way - to cover critical approaches - and the company commander presumably coordinated the brigade anti-tank plan, perhaps in conjunction with the CO of the armoured regiment.

 

[REDinstaller]

Ain't that the truth. How would have the Combat Arms functioned without porn in every vehicle in the field?

I will try to dig up a copy of the book, thanks again!

How often do you come upto Edmonton? I have a copy of the book, so just PM me before and I will have it waiting for you at the Regt.

 

[Tango24B]

Thanks for the offer. I found a couple of copies at the public library in Calgary!

 

[daftandbarmy]

In the early sixties the Canadian Army was very, very concerned about the Warsaw Pact's preponderance in armour and undertook a major re-organization. In 1963 in Gagetown the 3 CIBG exercise included an anti-tank trial with a brigade anti-tank company. (I believe the exercise was titled Tribulation. The pace was hectic and periodically we would receive a stand fast. At these points RCAF Lancaster photo reconnaissance aircraft would photograph the exercise area for use by the Op Research folks in AHQ.) It was determined that a brigade anti-tank company was the best available solution. Out of this came a decision to convert 3 R22R to an anti-tank battalion and Cie B was stationed in Fort Anne near Werl in the 4 CIBG area. The company had four platoons, three of which were mixed 106mm and Entac ATGM, while the fourth platoon had 15 SS11s. These were originally mounted on 3/4 ton trucks, but eventually received M113A1 modified as launcher vehicles.

You were in the Army when we still had Lancasters in the RCAF?  :bowdown:

 

[Old Sweat]

You were in the Army when we still had Lancasters in the RCAF?  :bowdown:

The RCAF used Lancasters post war for aerial photography as part of the mapping of the north. I believe they went out of service in 1963 or 1964. It was quite an experience to hear the drone of the four Merlin engines and see one fly over the gun position several thousand feet in the air.