All Things "Mad Dog" Mattis (merged)

[pbi]

Infanteer: that was an excellent post.

Bossi: you reveal yourself as an ancient throwback. You are probably one of the sorts who goes out on a TEWT, plops himself on a shooting stick,  listens to a subaltern's solution, and then says:

"Bwah- bwah,-rubbish, young fellow. Have you a brain, sir? Then use it. Damned silly young pup. Harrumph. Where's the port decanter?" ;D

But, more to the point, where IS P Kaye? We have not heard from the person who originated this exchange, in response to all the recent comments here. 

P Kaye.....?

Cheers

 

[tomahawk6]

It is not uncommon for senior officer's to make statements without regard to their effects. Patton is the most famous. He seemed to have chronic foot and mouth disease. There is no question that LTG Mattis got stiff private rebuke. I saw the tape of the comments he made and there were other senior officer's sitting next to him and they seemed chagrined. Live and learn.

 

[mdh]

What looked funny last night does sound snotty the next morning so I will change it, with no offence meant to CupFrantic. cheers, mdh

 

[P Kaye]

>> But, more to the point, where IS P Kaye?

I wasn't at the computer at all yesterday... spent the Saturday doing home renovation work.

>> Although I do not like what you said, I respect the characteristics that I believe it shows....

Thanks PBI.  I think my post started a very worth-while debate.  All the subsequent posts certainly made me do some hard thinking about my comment, and about how morality and armed conflict can be reconciled. 

I stand by my position that we should try to avoid an attitude that killing is "fun", regardless of how we may feel about our enemies.
I firmly disagree that it is necessary to hate ones enemy to be successful in combat.  I respect the soldier who understands that combat and killing is his duty and his job, but that it doesn't have to be a personal vendetta fuelled by personal rage.
I think that a professional attitude is critical for soldiers, for all sorts of reasons.  It's been interesting to debate what constitutes a "professional" attitude about killing. 

My thanks to all those who have taken the time to comment on this, and critique my original comment.  Were I to do it again, I certainly would have phrased my comment more carefully, and been sure to specify exactly what it is that I object to. 

As for the Marine LGen, I don't know anything about his career or soldiering abilities.  He is, in all likelihood, a fine and accomplished soldier.  I stand by my belief that a General has to be more than just a good soldier.  A general is in the public eye.  A general has a serious responsibility to be sensitive to the fact that his comments will shape the views and attitudes that the public holds toward the military.  His comments will also shape the attitudes of the soldiers and officers within the military.  I stand by my belief that this particular general was not honouring this aspect of his responsibility when he made his comment about killing Iraqis being "fun".  I don't think his career should end over this, but I do think that he should be made to consider the impact his words may have had on the Marines.

Again, I think the debate has been valuable.  I think it very important for soldiers to hold themselves to a high moral standard, and to periodically re-examine how that can be done when his job is ultimately about killing.  This forum provides a great place for debates about this kind of thing, and I salute all of you who have made this discussion so interesting 

 

[mdh]

Great post PKaye,

 

[bossi]

What looked funny last night does sound snotty the next morning so I will change it, with no offence meant to CupFrantic.

"The only man who makes no mistakes is the man who never does anything. Do not be afraid to make mistakes providing you do not make the same one twice."
- Theodore Roosevelt

 

[mdh]

Quote
"The only man who makes no mistakes is the man who never does anything. Do not be afraid to make mistakes providing you do not make the same one twice."
- Theodore Roosevelt

Don't make the same mistake twice? - too late - I decided to rejoin the militia in early middle age, cheers, mdh

 

[Andyboy]

Great post PKaye,

Yes PKaye, great post. Congrats on showing that you didn't even bother to go beyond skimming what was written and projecting what you THINK rather than what he actually said. As a hint, review who exactly he was talking about vice who you think he was talking about.

Not that it matters, heaven forbid someone actually express what he believes, especially if it offends your sensibilities. Gen Mattis was doing nothing more than verbalizing what thousands before have felt yet were too afraid to say for fear of being shamed by those who have no experience in the matter. I applaud the General for his candour, courage, and honesty. It's a shame more of our officers aren't like him.

 

[devil39]

Don't think this has been posted yet.

Ralph Peters' take on the Lt. Gen Mattis affair.

http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/opedcolumnists/39390.htm

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

"Table manners don't win wars."
You would never get that out of our papers.

 

[P Kaye]

>> Congrats on showing that you didn't even bother to go beyond skimming what was written and projecting what you THINK rather than what he actually said

Andyboy, there is no call for that.  I read what was written ("read", not "skimmed").  I commented in what I THINK about what was said.  Others disagreed with me, and a debate followed.  This is how a forum works.

In my posts, I never lower myself to mud-slinging at other members of the forum.  I state my position on things.  When I disagree with what others have said, I make an argument.  In general, I like this forum because people are generally very good-natured, even when they disagree.  Launching into personal rants and tossing insults at each other will make this forum less appealing to everyone.  Constructive debate is important and worth-while.  The debate about this issue of morality and soldiering has been very valuable to me, and I hope to some others.  For the most-part, I try to ignore posts involving personal attacks on me, or on other participants.

On another thread I read recently, a young chap named "Brent" made a comment that "I want to see some combat".  Granted, I agree that this was not a bright thing to say, and would suggest to Brent that he think about his comment carefully.  When I read the rest of the post, I was unhappy to see several pages full of attacks on him, by other forum members.  Comments like "grow up Brent", or "give your head a shake".  If you read that thread, you'll notice that there are no other posts by Brent.  Insults are only going to turn people off this forum, which is a shame, because it is such a valuable resource.

I would like to appeal to everyone to please try to control your tempers when commenting on others' views and opinions.  We're all adults, and many of us are professional soldiers, and professionals in the civilian world.  I have come to love this forum, and sincerely hope it continues to be such a valuable resource for all of us.

P Kaye

 

[Andyboy]

I'll spell it out for you. He wasn't talking about Iraqis, he was talking about the Taliban. Clearly the term "Attention to detail" is lost on you.

As for the rest of your post, "if you've got an issue, here's a tissue". If you are this sensitive on a message board I would have hated to have to deal with your fragile ego on a course or worse still on operations.

Good luck in your career, sincerely. 

 

[Matt_Fisher]

Having served under General Mattis in Iraq and having met him on several occasions, I am not suprised by those comments he made.

Here are a few personal anecdotes to give you all some background on General Mattis:

Winter of 2000, my company was doing a parade at the Iwo Jima Memorial in Arlington, VA (I was not in the unit at that point in time) and General Mattis spoke to them.   The address was pretty candid and made remarks that "There's an ahshole in Iraq that needs his ahs stomping and we're gonna be the ones to do it"   he also made another remark along the lines that Marines do one thing:   Kill.

May of 2003, outside of Jasan Iraq on the Iran-Iraq border.   Gen. Mattis had flown in to address our battalion.   As he was being picked up by our CO, Gen. Mattis approached the driver of the HMMWV, extended his arm in a motion that the driver was thought to be an offer of a handshake, and next thing you know Gen. Mattis has the driver in a choke hold and is demanding to know why the chinstrap on his helmet is not done up.

Sept of 2003, Camp Babylon Iraq.  
Our company had been given the responsibility of providing security for the 1st Marine Division and 1st Marine Expeditionary Force CPs.   Upon our arrival and brief, Gen. Mattis remarked   "It's nice to have some infantry Marines here in the camp.   This place has been f*cking pogue central, and all they do is b*tch and moan.   I'm glad to have some more trigger pullers around the place who'll get to taste fresh chow and enjoy a hot shower on a regular basis."  

About 2 weeks later the Ali-Imman mosque in Karbala had just been blown up by terrorists and the 1st Marine Division's retrograde has now been indefinitely suspended.   Gen. Mattis spoke to my company and laid everything out, saying pretty much that life sometimes sucks, but we're Marines and we've got a job to do and when that job is done, we'll go home.   It wasn't going to be dictated by some date on the calendar, but when things were in place for our retrograde, we'd leave.   One of the remarks that particularly stuck in my head was his reference to the US Army's 3rd Infantry Division.   He remarked on how the 3rd ID had done a great job in combat, but once the occupation started, they were so vocal about complaining to go home their division was made infamous in the US media to the point that when the average US person was asked who the 3rd ID were, they'd respond "Aren't they the ones that wanted to come home from Iraq?"   No way in heck was that going to happen with the Marines.   We hold ourselves to a higher standard.

Gen. Mattis is definitely the last of a breed of wartime generals such that talked tough and fought harder.

See my original commentary on him under the thread:   Who is your Favorite Foreign (Interesting Commander)/General?
http://army.ca/forums/threads/23678.0.html

General Mattis' character is much like the slogan of the 1st Marine Division in Iraq:   No better friend.   No worse enemy.

Were his remarks brash.   Yes.

Would I go to war with him again and trust that he'd bring me home alive to my family?

HE** YES!

 

[P Kaye]

Thanks Matt, I found those anecdotes quite interesting.  You're in a unique position to comment on this, being ex-CF and current USM... a very admirable career thus far!

Andyboy... don't worry, my ego isn't as fragile as all that.  I do find it more enjoyable to work with people who try to be polite and friendly, however.  Table manners may not win wars, but I personally prefer people who try to use them whenever possible.

>>  I would have hated to have to deal with your fragile ego on a course or worse still on operations

And I think I would have hated to have to deal with your arrogant and ill-manered disposition, on course or on operations.

Good luck in your career as well.

 

[mdh]

I don't think AndyBoy has read Michael O'Leary's piece posted on the site today.

Matt - interesting anecdotes on General Mattis - I wonder if you think his remarks are going to have a negative impact on US public opinion with regard to the conduct of the war in Iraq? Or is this a one-day wonder as far as the media there is concerned? cheers, mdh

 

[Infanteer]

And I think I would have hated to have to deal with your arrogant and ill-manered disposition, on course or on operations.

Well, he's certainly entitled to hold that attitude towards you.  Despite all the responses your baseless statements received, you've yet to recind either:

1) Your completely unwarranted character attacks on LtGen Mattis, who, according to you, doesn't take his job seriously.
2) Your completely unfounded comments on the attitudes and professionalism of Canadian soldiers on operations.

All you've done is offer up some wishy-washy deflection saying "Gee, I started a good argument, but I'm still right in my assumptions - even though I have no experience with either topic and others have told me otherwise...."

 

[P Kaye]

And I am justified in having my opinion of him.   The point I am trying to make is that it would be better if we kept these opinions about each other to ourselves.

1) In yesterday's post, I did in fact acknowledge that he "in all likelihood is a   fine and accomplished soldier".   I said that I feel that when he made his comment he was neglecting PART of his duty, which is to consider how his comments are going to affect public opinion of the Marines.

2) In my follow-up post on Friday, I did in fact clarify that my comment about the professionalism of Canadian soldiers was directed at some of the comments I have heard made by some junior NCMs in the Reserves.  I know that some of these NCMs have gone on deployment, or intend to go on deployment, and the things I have overheard have caused me concern.  I have every right to be concerned, and to express this concern.

I think I did indeed make an effort clarify and modify my comments in light of what was said after my initial post.   I also made an effort to thank those (including you) whose comments had made me think through my position more carefully.   What else would you have liked me to do?

Also, perhaps I should note that I was not the first one to show disgust at the comment about killing being fun.  If you read the thread from the beginning, several people expressed this feeling before I made my post.  Just because we're not anywhere near as accomplished soldiers as the LGen, doesn't mean we aren't entitled to voice criticism on a forum about things he says.

 

[P Kaye]

Somehow my message has been twisted and distorted!
Let me be CLEAR:

1) Killing is part of the JOB of a soldier, and I have NO PROBLEMS with it morally.

2) I find the idea of taking JOY or PLEASURE in killing people to be disturbing.

If you think this makes me a bad soldier, all I can say is that I firmly disagree.

 

[dutchie]

Somehow my message has been twisted and distorted!
Let me be CLEAR:

1) Killing is part of the JOB of a soldier, and I have NO PROBLEMS with it morally.

2) I find the idea of taking JOY or PLEASURE in killing people to be disturbing.

If you think this makes me a bad soldier, all I can say is that I firmly disagree.

Although I would have a slightly different way of phrasing the second point here, I don't have much of a problem with what you've said.

Essentially, I see the biggest problem most people would have regarding the Good General's remarks could be summarized in one word: professionalism. If taken the WRONG way, removed from context, and without considering his experience and expertise, you COULD make an argument that what he said was unprofessional.

Of course, as others have mentioned, his remarks are appropriate considering the audience, his job, his experience, and most importantly, his expertise.

 

[Mad Max]

Listen, I am a fan of this forum. I am also a career Infantryman- NOT an Infanteer, for you PC whiners out there. I just had to respond to P Kaye? and his comments about the Jarhead General. You know, for someone like me to have to witness limp-wristed commentary like that on a military-dedicated site proves that we have been involved with U.N. stuff for far too long. That USMC officer is probably the kind of soldier that ANY real Professional soldier would follow without question. I realize that saying this makes me a loathsome, uneducated, wrong-thinking Phillistine in the minds of the hand-wringers out there, BUT THERE YOU GO. As far as P Kaye's assertion that his lack of aggressiveness makes him a better soldier- assuming it is a him- he sounds like a likely candidate for a trip to the M.I.R. during pugil training. Moralizing, and high-handed self-assignation of intellectual and spiritual superiority in the field of soldiering from an individual who can't now, nor ever will understand what soldiering is really about is refreshingly ridiculous.And I'll bet you think Dallaire is the greatest General since Hannibal. Thanks for your time.