Two U.S. Navy SEALs Killed: New Report Reveals How U.S. Lost Its Elite Soldiers In Mere 47 Seconds During Anti-Terror Ops

[Humphrey Bogart]

Two U.S. Navy SEALs Killed: New Report Reveals How U.S. Lost Its Elite Soldiers In Mere 47 Seconds During Anti-Terror Ops

An inquiry into the drownings of two US Navy SEALs during a mission to intercept a vessel transporting illegal Iranian-made weapons to Yemen has uncovered significant training deficiencies and misconceptions about how to react after entering deep, turbulent waters. The incident occurred in...

www.eurasiantimes.com

However, he was wearing nearly 48 pounds of gear. As waves began to violently hit the side of the boat, the weight of his equipment quickly overwhelmed him, causing him to lose his grip and fall into the water nine feet below.

Though Chambers resurfaced briefly and managed to grab the ladder, aerial footage reviewed during the investigation showed that he was soon swept away by a powerful wave.

Seeing his comrade in distress, Ingram immediately jumped into the water in an attempt to save him. However, he was carrying around 80 pounds of gear, including a radio rucksack, making it difficult for him to stay afloat. Like Chambers, Ingram quickly sank below the surface.

I had read about this incident when it first happened and figured it was some sort of VBSS gone wrong. Why in the World would you ever wear 80lbs of gear to board a Dhow?

This seems like a very preventable accident that was entirely caused by bad TTPs. I am wondering why their PFDs wouldn't auto-deploy though or what their setup was.

Sounds like they were geared up for a big fight which I personally feel is a little foolish in these situations. Even carrying a lot of weapons is pointless, it's not like you are going to shoot well on a Dhow bouncing around in the seas. Carry enough for self-defence and if shots are fired, return fire and bug out of there.

You've got Aviation and a Ship at your disposal. If shots are fired, bring in the big guns in and blow em out of the water.

 

[Jarnhamar]

I had read about this incident when it first happened and figured it was some sort of VBSS gone wrong. Why in the World would you ever wear 80lbs of gear to board a Dhow?

I was wondering the same. I can't imagine how much extra kit they would need for a mission like that. Doubt they'll need the same battle load as an infantry soldier.
Are you (or any navy dudes) able to speak to how kuch kit/weight our boarding parties carry?

 

[SeaKingTacco]

The TTP for our Boarding party used to be: carry just enough gear/firepower to disengage from a firefight and get overboard. Dump all your gear/weapons and swim away from the vessel as fast as you could, because it was about to be absolutely raked with GPMG fire from the helicopter and .50 cal/57mm fire from the ship.

Seemed like a reasonable COA, to me.

 

[KevinB]

The 80lb weight seem very very weird.

SEAL’s will generally be wearing ‘swimmer cut’ plates that are designed to allow for fairly unrestricted movement, and some of those are neutrally buoyant (due to foam coatings).
But you’re looking at 10-14 lbs for plates and close to 20lbs for the armor system then add Radio(s), 3 carbine mags, ATAK, IFAK, PFD, you are not much under 30lbs.

Helmet: OPSCore with S&S strobe/light kit, ear pro, and NVG’s is around 5lbs

Mk18 with suppressor, CCO, MFAL and Light is 9.5lb, and pistol for another 3lbs (with light and MRDS)

So with clothing. shoes/boots, 48lbs of gear isn’t unreasonable.

But all that gear is supposed to be cut away - the old CIRAS-M and Paraclete RAV from the 2000’s were created from previous drownings from folks wearing gear they couldn’t jettison.

The 80lb number however seems to be the Weird Harold

The 117 radio is only 12lbs with a battery, let’s say 15 with the antenna.

So we have a solid 15lb delta (allowing for a 5lb backpack weight) of weight. Which generally for maritime work that gear will be dry bagged / and be fairly buoyant on its own.


I have some suspicions as to what the additional weight was, but I’m not going to post it here.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

The 80lb weight seem very very weird.

SEAL’s will generally be wearing ‘swimmer cut’ plates that are designed to allow for fairly unrestricted movement, and some of those are neutrally buoyant (due to foam coatings).
But you’re looking at 10-14 lbs for plates and close to 20lbs for the armor system then add Radio(s), 3 carbine mags, ATAK, IFAK, PFD, you are not much under 30lbs.

Helmet: OPSCore with S&S strobe/light kit, ear pro, and NVG’s is around 5lbs

Mk18 with suppressor, CCO, MFAL and Light is 9.5lb, and pistol for another 3lbs (with light and MRDS)

So with clothing. shoes/boots, 48lbs of gear isn’t unreasonable.

But all that gear is supposed to be cut away - the old CIRAS-M and Paraclete RAV from the 2000’s were created from previous drownings from folks wearing gear they couldn’t jettison.

The 80lb number however seems to be the Weird Harold

The 117 radio is only 12lbs with a battery, let’s say 15 with the antenna.

So we have a solid 15lb delta (allowing for a 5lb backpack weight) of weight. Which generally for maritime work that gear will be dry bagged / and be fairly buoyant on its own.


I have some suspicions as to what the additional weight was, but I’m not going to post it here.

On these Dhows, you don't even need everyone to have a Rifle, pistol will suffice. You really only need a couple of rifles for the insertion, once you're aboard and have secured the Dhow, the rifle can be slung.

Give a couple of pers rifles and the rest can use a pistol. The people you're encountering on these Dhows are basically petty criminals for the most part with a couple of hard-core dudes scattered in amongst the crews. Any Somalis I dealt with were super tiny and cracked out. Add in the inclement weather and poor conditions aboard these vessels and the crews are in poor shape. A Billy Club honestly would have sufficed for weaponry in most cases.

NVGs and other assorted crap are also basically useless in 95% of situations. These boats are cramped and small, just get onboard and use a flashlight. The amount of gear being mentioned seems like complete overkill for this AO.

Any specialized equipment can be brought over once the vessel is secured and the crew is under control.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Picture of the Dhow they were boarding. Free climbing these is something I've done a couple of times. The caving ladders sometimes don't hook on to these things that easy or sometimes it's just easier to judge the swells and jump aboard.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Picture of the Dhow they were boarding. Free climbing these is something I've done a couple of times. The caving ladders sometimes don't hook on to these things that easy or sometimes it's just easier to judge the swells and jump aboard.

They should have adopted the 'SLt Lawrence Loadout'



While Lawrence and his team were preparing themselves, the corvette’s main gun jammed. In the heat of battle the gun crew rapidly cleared the round without concern for their surroundings. The gun was cleared, reloaded and fired. However, Oakville’s boarding party was only a few metres from the gun, and the blast blew the boarding party over the side and onto the deck below.[15] Lawrence awoke from the concussion with his ears and nose bleeding. The petty officer standing over him informed him that the submarine was alongside, and it was time to board. Lawrence staggered to the gunwale and jumped over the side, landing on the surging deck of the submarine 10 feet below.

His rough landing snapped the elastic in his shorts, which he shook off into the sea. With the exception of some boarding equipment and a life belt, Lawrence was naked. Stoker Petty Officer Art Powell followed Lawrence onto the submarine as Oakville lost power and began to drift away. The remaining members of the boarding team were stranded on their own ship, leaving Lawrence and Powell to conduct the boarding alone.

The Storming of U-94 – How Two Allied Sailors Took on the Crew of a U-boat in the Caribbean - MilitaryHistoryNow.com

“The incident had all the elements of a great naval tale: a devastating air attack, the ramming of an enemy submarine by an Allied corvette, and a hostile boarding on the Spanish Main.” By James...

militaryhistorynow.com

 

[KevinB]

On these Dhows, you don't even need everyone to have a Rifle, pistol will suffice. You really only need a couple of rifles for the insertion, once you're aboard and have secured the Dhow, the rifle can be slung.

Uhm tell you haven’t worked with SEAL’s without telling me you haven’t worked with SEAL’s
The team min loadout is like a Mk46 belt-fed for every 4 guys, and a Mk48 for every 8-10. Firepower and SEAL team can never be far from each other


The one thing that stood out is that SEAL’s usually don’t do VBSS, as conventional Navy does those. SEAL’s conduct lots of maritime missions, but the standard VBSS isn’t one.

Give a couple of pers rifles and the rest can use a pistol. The people you're encountering on these Dhows are basically petty criminals for the most part with a couple of hard-core dudes scattered in amongst the crews. Any Somalis I dealt with were super tiny and cracked out. Add in the inclement weather and poor conditions aboard these vessels and the crews are in poor shape. A Billy Club honestly would have sufficed for weaponry in most cases.

NVGs and other assorted crap are also basically useless in 95% of situations. These boats are cramped and small, just get onboard and use a flashlight. The amount of gear being mentioned seems like complete overkill for this AO.

For a VBSS yes, but something doesn’t sound right - mainly as everything seems out of the ordinary. Generally no one likes to to a boarding underway at night unless there is some tactical/situational circumstance that dictates that.

Frankly I looking at that boat - the the unobstructed roof on both the top and second deck, I’d have rather roped in from a bird and used the boats as safety functions in case anyone went overboard.

You get immediate overwatch that way on the open areas, and you can seize the Bridge fairly immediately, and the engine room team should have it secure pretty quickly - then your security team will clear the rest.

Any specialized equipment can be brought over once the vessel is secured and the crew is under control.

Yeah if anything is need for SSE or Demo, the entry isn’t the time to bring it over. That much is common regardless of the type of mission.

 

[rnkelly]

The article mentions Iran/Houthi weapon flow so some pretty valuable stuff to protect on one side, and to capture on the other. Seems like they were ready for a fight and that firepower was a priority.
RIP

 

[KevinB]

FWIW - more comes out.

Investigation of SEALs Drowning Also Uncovers Allegations of Performance-Enhancing Drug Use, Secret Surgery

The Navy investigation stressed that "the allegations raised in the complaint were not root causes" of the decision to conduct the boarding operation or the drowning deaths of the two SEALs.

www.military.com

 

[Navy_Pete]

FWIW - more comes out.

Investigation of SEALs Drowning Also Uncovers Allegations of Performance-Enhancing Drug Use, Secret Surgery

The Navy investigation stressed that "the allegations raised in the complaint were not root causes" of the decision to conduct the boarding operation or the drowning deaths of the two SEALs.

www.military.com

I think if I was doing that kind of thing, I'd be on more PEDs than the 1980s USSR swim team. Seems like the kind of thing where doctor observed cycles is not unreasonable, and lower dosages of TRT seems to be becoming more common on first responders and others doing high stress shift work and all the impacts that has on people's bodies anyway.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

I think if I was doing that kind of thing, I'd be on more PEDs than the 1980s USSR swim team. Seems like the kind of thing where doctor observed cycles is not unreasonable, and lower dosages of TRT seems to be becoming more common on first responders and others doing high stress shift work and all the impacts that has on people's bodies anyway.

What happens when you stop juicing.... featuring Alistair Overeem:

 

[OldSolduer]

FWIW - more comes out.

Investigation of SEALs Drowning Also Uncovers Allegations of Performance-Enhancing Drug Use, Secret Surgery

The Navy investigation stressed that "the allegations raised in the complaint were not root causes" of the decision to conduct the boarding operation or the drowning deaths of the two SEALs.

www.military.com

My condolences to the families and fellow SEALs. It's never easy losing anyone in any circumstance.

Part of the problem IMO is that the myth of invincibility of SOF units is just that - a myth.

 

[Navy_Pete]

What happens when you stop juicing.... featuring Alistair Overeem:

View attachment 88464

Sure, but Ubereem was on the outlying side of things (Vitor Belfort also comes to mind). They roided out for a huge amount of muscles. There are also other PEDs that increase stamina/endurance and theraupeutic levels of TRT that are used for boosting recovery.

I doubt spec forces folks would benefit from steroids, but still probably various cocktails of things that could help them out, at way lower dosages with doctor supervision.

Honestly I'd be surprised if there wasn't already some kind of pharmaceutical aids for peak performance for operators as part of their overall health monitoring, as I'm sure there are ways that can be done were it doesn't end up crashing them when they wean off (or miss dosages or whatever).

Sounds more like the objection is that it's outside the medical system vice approved; it's not like they aren't already doing things like dosing their pilots with uppers/downers.