Author Topic: ATVs  (Read 84309 times)

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Offline Petamocto

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Re: ATVs
« Reply #25 on: September 03, 2010, 09:00:45 »
BV206s are a phenominal vehicle, no question about that.  I remember from the Science and Tech OPME where they covered every vehicle's displacement ratings (contact patches vs weight and a few other factors)...basically the BV206's rating number was off the charts because it's so light and essentially 2/3 of the surface area on the bottom is contact patch.

ATVs also had a comparitively high rating.

That being said though, like any vehicle there are some limitations to the BV206.  I like the idea of having a Recce Platoon with a mix if dirtbikes and ATVs and then a couple BVs for the HQ/CP.

Rogo,

Just because something is not a fighting role does not mean it only has to be on FOB admin duties.  What I am saying is that it is not the type of vehicle you would actually bring on the assault portion of the operation with you like you can with a LAV where it fires you on to the objective and you dismount to mop op.

Once you see how patrols work, how I see ATVs being employed is doing all the heavy lifting from your start point (patrol base, FOB, whatever) to either the Initial or Objective RV, where everyone stops for a bit to sort themselves out.  Then everyone could go to the trailer and get their extra ammo, top up their water, etc.  What happens now is that a soldier humps every single pound on his back, every round and every litre of water, but if there were something like an ATV mule the soldier would only need first line ammo and a couple litres on them while doing the walk.

Then they get left in place with a small security element who is there anyway to watch the rucksacks (D Security by the book).

Their employment is almost endless on the march there and back, too.  I can think of all sorts of occasions when I turned to the weapons det commander and said something like "I need the C6 pushed up to that intersection to cover that gap while we cross", not to mention how if the ground allows you can leapfrog the MGs in bounds so you always have one covering you.

Any time the rear C6 has to take his next bound, he could just really quickly hop on the back and get carried for that 100-1000m instead of the poor guy shuffling with his helment flopping all over the place before he gets to the next hill.
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Online Thucydides

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Re: ATVs
« Reply #26 on: September 03, 2010, 11:58:17 »
Of course for every positive there is a negative (or your Karma would become unbalanced....)

In the book "Not a good day to die", there is an incident where the entire operation was endangered because several Taliban found the tracks of the ATV's the SEALs had used to insert recce parties into the Sha-i-kot valley. Luckily for the SEALs and the rest of the incoming task force, the Taliban proved to be poor or incurious trackers, following the trail partway up towards where the horrified SEAL OP was but then just shrugging their shoulders and walking away.

Yes, any vehicle or person can leave a trail that can be followed, this is just to remind everyone that there are no "wonder weapons" or pieces of equipment.
Dagny, this is not a battle over material goods. It's a moral crisis, the greatest the world has ever faced and the last. Our age is the climax of centuries of evil. We must put an end to it, once and for all, or perish - we, the men of the mind. It was our own guilt. We produced the wealth of the world - but we let our enemies write its moral code.

Offline Petamocto

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Re: ATVs
« Reply #27 on: September 03, 2010, 12:08:44 »
Yes, any vehicle or person can leave a trail that can be followed, this is just to remind everyone that there are no "wonder weapons" or pieces of equipment.

To hit the tennis ball of karma back in your court, when you say "any vehicle" can leave a track you're of course excludingthe wonder vehicle that is the helicopter, right  ;)

Now you can say "But yes, even those get shot down those and cost $100m when they do", which is when I say "Exactly, think of all the ATVs you could have bought for that!"

 :argument:
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Offline 57Chevy

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Re: ATVs
« Reply #28 on: September 03, 2010, 19:25:26 »
Take into consideration that any vehicle can also
cover her tracks.
In the same manner as fighting patrols on foot
secure their perimeter in the wee hours.

Actually it could make things even more confusing for trackers  ;D

Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: ATVs
« Reply #29 on: September 04, 2010, 00:31:08 »
Take into consideration that any vehicle can also
cover her tracks.
In the same manner as fighting patrols on foot
secure their perimeter in the wee hours.

Actually it could make things even more confusing for trackers  ;D

I recall trying to track a Norwegian platoon in arctic Norway in winter. We were on skis (and thought we were pretty hard core) and they were in BV 206s. We had stalked BV 202 - borne untis before and were always able to find them stuck in the snow somewhere and 'slaughter' them.

With the BV 206, we could barely climb the snow slopes that they, effortlessly, scaled straight up. They were able to lay down a completely confusing track plan that was pretty difficult to figure out. It wasn't much of a contest really (until we figured out that the best way to get them was to ambush the DOP for their equivalent of the NAFFI truck!).
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Offline George Wallace

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Re: ATVs
« Reply #30 on: September 04, 2010, 09:15:42 »
Ah!  The NAFFI Truck.  Now there was a person who had access to COSMIC Level INT.   That Truck was parked in our Hide before we even knew the Grid.
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Online Thucydides

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Re: ATVs
« Reply #31 on: September 04, 2010, 23:02:42 »
So a NAFFI driver on an ATV would be an unbeatable combination?
Dagny, this is not a battle over material goods. It's a moral crisis, the greatest the world has ever faced and the last. Our age is the climax of centuries of evil. We must put an end to it, once and for all, or perish - we, the men of the mind. It was our own guilt. We produced the wealth of the world - but we let our enemies write its moral code.

Offline ArmyRick

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Re: ATVs
« Reply #32 on: September 05, 2010, 00:27:56 »
As far as the brit viking goes, it is being replaced already by the warthog (singapore industries). Heavier and better protected.
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Offline Oh No a Canadian

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Re: ATVs
« Reply #33 on: September 05, 2010, 18:06:41 »

Offline dangerboy

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Re: ATVs
« Reply #34 on: September 07, 2010, 20:10:00 »
On OP MEDUSA in 2006 while the acting Pl 2IC I drove a Gator (I classify it as an ATV) with the medic.  We carried resupply of water, ammo and her jump bag and stretcher.  While the troops were dismounted we followed behind.  It worked good using it as a resupply vehicle and I did not feel any more scared of IEDs/mines than the dismounts did.
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Offline ArmyRick

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Re: ATVs
« Reply #35 on: September 07, 2010, 20:28:03 »
Crooks, PM inbound with "words of wisdom"

My take on the ATV as a close support vehicle sure. Exactly how Dangerboy described it is awesome too.

They are quite usefull in domestic operations as well. Not full on combat, but any operation has the potential to get ugly. It could be protestors turning on army guys or a person/group with a real grudge agaisnt the government (FLQ type stuff).

As for international operations (combat/peace enforcement/whatever). It would depend on the threat level, what the threat is and what the terrain is like.

Maybe a place like Sierra Leone with lots of heavy wooded areas and steep hills, the ATV would be awesome for moving a 50 cal or a mortar into position and carry out re-supply/cas evac as per Dangerboys example.

My take. Not based on cadet expirience.

« Last Edit: September 07, 2010, 20:31:42 by ArmyRick »
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Offline Technoviking

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Re: ATVs
« Reply #36 on: September 07, 2010, 20:49:11 »
there is a bit of common sense there, too (so I suppose I'm in the wrong for stating the obvious), such as an ATV having no cover, and not being bulletproof. That would require a lot of money and time in improvements that may just turn out to be more expensive than its worth.

There is a trade-off between firepower, protection and mobility for any vehicle.  Tanks have the best of all three, naturally, but are very expensive.  And heavy.

ATVs for use by our forces on operations has some merit, and I'm certain that other countries' forces are, as I type this, using an ATV somewhere.  And the Taliban use motorcycles, cars, etc.  So, it's not just us, it's them.

So, it comes to the question at the start: do ATVs have a role in the combat arms?  There is a fairly recent example posted earlier from Op MEDUSA, and given that we travel by foot in spots, then it makes perfect sense to have an ATV that can not only carry logistical supplies, but also ammunition, and even a weapon as stated at the start of this thread: the AGLS (which is rather heavy, but has very good range and a variety of terminal effects that are....desirable)

So, without focussing on Afghanistan, but thinking of operations in general (and not dom ops that would involve unarmed help, eg, digging out cities, aid to the civil power, etc), I am a firm believer that this country of ours needs some sort of "light infantry" that can deploy with or without any specific vehicle.  ATVs offer a degree of logistical support, so yeah, they aren't bullet proof, but neither are our soldiers.  But the benefits they offer could have second or third order effects that spare lives.


So, there I was....

Offline Nerf herder

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Re: ATVs
« Reply #37 on: September 07, 2010, 21:16:03 »
After a bit of fall cleaning.....back on topic troops.

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Offline Sprinting Thistle

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Re: ATVs
« Reply #38 on: September 07, 2010, 21:42:54 »
Two examples:  in planning for MEDUSA, each of the LAV Coys were given 4 gators (C Coy wanted 6).  It was expected that when they moved onto Phase 3 - Clearance they would be in for an urban fight.  With the narrow paths, grapefields, buildings / huts and lack of solid roads or manoeuvre space, it was expected the LAVs would only make it into the village areas so far.  It was going to be a dismounted fight.  Therefore it was determined that there was a need for a way to move ammo, water, demolitions forward and wounded rearward in an expeditious manner.  Thus, deployed by low bed, the requisite number of gators to Coy leaguers prior to H Hr.   

Second example would be G8 Summit.  Light companies needed ATVs to traverse the myriad of trails and paths throughout the AO.  Further, partnered LEA were operating on ATVs thus our patrols needed to have the same mobility.  Again gators or ATVs with trailers were used to move supplies forward to hides, OPs and biv sites. 

One a mech force on a combat mission and another a light force on a Dom Op.  ATVs and UTVs are another tool in the toolbox to be used at the right time in the right place.

Offered for what its worth.

Offline George Wallace

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Re: ATVs
« Reply #39 on: September 07, 2010, 21:48:17 »
I think the enphasis should be on "right time" and "right place".  They are another tool in the tool box, but not an all singing, all dancing one.
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Offline Not a Sig Op

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Re: ATVs
« Reply #40 on: September 07, 2010, 22:10:02 »
The only thought on ATVs.. if you're going to buy an ATV, it has to be bought with the intent of using it as an ATV... including winches and ancillary kit (snatch block, tow strap, etc), enough engine power to carry the loads that'll be expected AND more, and training that emphasises how to get them unstuck.

(Actually, all those points can be said of all military vehicles, however, they're points that the people who write the specs tend to forget... one such example I seem to recall a lesson learned about keeping tow cables *outside* rather then inside.... which is a lesson that's been learned many times yet apparently we forgot...

Online mariomike

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Re: ATVs
« Reply #41 on: September 07, 2010, 22:18:19 »
They are quite usefull in domestic operations as well.

4 X 6 Gators are regularly used for patient transport. 4 x 4 Gators as non-transport medical response units.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2010, 09:47:12 by mariomike »

Offline ArmyRick

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Re: ATVs
« Reply #42 on: September 07, 2010, 23:10:34 »
Actually if you ask Mike Sparks of Combat Reform web sites, there is no need to use ATVs in combat. The M113 (or Gavin as he thinks its called) will do everything you need then look for an obscure youtube video to follow! Ok that was uncalled for but too tempting to resist.

So depending on Threat and Mission requirements (A good combat estimate will determine if/how the ATV may be used) and understanding its capabilities and limitations, here are some cool things I could see it doing

1. The obvious, moving ammo/water/demo forward to areas AFV can't get and casualties out
2. Hauling heavy weapons such as the 40mm AGLS, 50 cal, 81mm mortars, TOW ground mount, etc, etc.
3. I could see engineers making use of this as well in areas where AFV can't get too. Engineers have alot of tools and toys that is not really man portable
4. In perceived lower threat environments, as a patrol/recce vehicle (NO, I do not mean using ATV in the same way as a british scimitar or Canadian lynx).
5. Moving a commander up quickly to allow him to see for himself the situation (for example, a Task force commander wants to see the Coy OC and the coy sitrep after a firefight and the area is reasonably secured). Again AFV would be preferable but when not practical and the commander needs speed, why not?
6. Use it to a limited extent to haul defensive stores around instead of having Pte Joe Bloggins and his pal make 10 million trips for revetting, sand bags, pickets, etc, etc.
7. Use it to haul beer, oops, I mean canteen goodies to the guys at the front :-)
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Offline George Wallace

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Re: ATVs
« Reply #43 on: September 08, 2010, 07:31:00 »
Crap!  You had to bring up Sparkie.   You'd think that he may just latch onto the ATV idea himself, being "Airborne" and all.
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Offline Journeyman

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Re: ATVs
« Reply #44 on: September 08, 2010, 12:34:43 »
Actually if you ask Mike Sparks of Combat Reform web sites......
  :rofl: America's own S. Ram-Taylor
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Offline Nerf herder

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Re: ATVs
« Reply #45 on: September 08, 2010, 15:30:52 »
  :rofl: America's own S. Ram-Taylor

I'm expecting ol' Sparky to be either looking at this forum or posting shortly.

Bow down to the GAVIN!

 ::)
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Offline Technoviking

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Re: ATVs
« Reply #46 on: September 08, 2010, 16:27:24 »
I'm expecting ol' Sparky to be either looking at this forum or posting shortly.

Bow down to the GARVIN!

 ::)
There, NOW it makes perfect sense.  To me, anyway!   >:D
So, there I was....

Offline George Wallace

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Re: ATVs
« Reply #47 on: September 08, 2010, 16:55:17 »
There, NOW it makes perfect sense.  To me, anyway!   >:D

You Mech guys.  So you want to be a M113?
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Offline Technoviking

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Re: ATVs
« Reply #48 on: September 08, 2010, 17:16:44 »
You Mech guys.  So you want to be a M113?
I don't want to be an M113, after all, I'm the Technoviking: M113's want to be ME!   ;D
So, there I was....

Offline ArmyRick

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Re: ATVs
« Reply #49 on: September 08, 2010, 18:58:56 »
Hate to derail the thread but since we are picking on Slim Jim Gavin's biggest fan, Sparky, I have to mention this. The clown in his weird ilogical method of doing things, sent me a youtube link to one of his videos.

 It was described as Gavins operating without any loss to IED and basically being indestructable in Iraq. It was a 30 second shot of an M113A3 (Not air droppable BTW) rolling down the highway. Mind you, there was no one firing at it either.

But the minute a LAVIII or a stryker is hit by fire or blown by a large IED (That would also level an M113) he is quick to put up pics or make videos of what he calls "Stryker death traps". Whatever.

I read a comment by a US Army Bradley commander who told sparks on a reply to one of his articles that the M113s in Iraq mostly sat parked and unused in camps.

Rant over.
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