Author Topic: MESO vs. MEM  (Read 30799 times)

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Offline tumbling_dice

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MESO vs. MEM
« on: October 03, 2008, 00:01:22 »
Hi everyone,

So I've tried my best to research this (as in I searched MESO and looked at all ten topics) and have come up short.  How different are Regular Force and Reserve Force Engineers.  From what I've heard the main difference is the reserves work the systems while the regular force can work and fix them.

So...

1. Does any of the reserve force training transfer over to regular force? I find it hard to believe that a C ticket Chief Engineer in the reserves couldn't receive any bypasses in the regular force, but I honestly don't know, the two trades could be apples and oranges.

2.  I know that in your reserve training career you will do three sets of OJT experience of 4-6 months each.  Is this cumulative (as in you can do it on weekends and just rack up sea hours over your career) or does it all have to be done as a sort of tour.

3. About how long does it take to finish all your reserve training (ie. get your C ticket) and what do you do after you have finished all the training?  I don't mean how long hour for hour are all the courses, I mean considering courses are only available at certain times in the year how does this all work out?

4.  Finally, are QL levels usually accompanied with ranks (ie. you finish QL 3 and become a PO2) or is it based on seniority and, like in cadets, are there rules as to how many PO1 and CPO2 are allowed (I'm assuming you can still only have one CPO1)

Thank you so much and I really appreciate any answers.

Offline kratz

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Re: MESO vs. MEM
« Reply #1 on: October 03, 2008, 08:39:52 »
Going from MESO to Mar Eng is a Occupational Transfer (OT) vice a Component Transfer  (CT)as the positions are that different. MESO are operators while Mar Eng earn certification through Canadian Forces Naval Engineering School Detachment  in Newfoundland.  I have watched PO1 MESO with 20 years service OT to Mar Eng and be posted to a ship as a Leading Seaman.  The timings to get your drawings done and standing your boards is set out when you start your training. It can be broken up between contracts, but if you do not meet the minimum time frame, a Training Review Board (TRB) may be held to ask and answer why you have not completed your training for that ticket. On average, for a MESO A Ticket can be achieved in 4-6 months of OJT.  Training is continuous in a member's career, it is never "finished". Yes, MESO tickets are linked with ranks. So a Leading Seaman would have earned  their A ticket and a Master Seaman would have taken their PLQ and earned their B ticket.
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Offline sledge

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Re: MESO vs. MEM
« Reply #2 on: October 03, 2008, 08:54:56 »
Yes, MESO tickets are linked with ranks. So a Leading Seaman would have earned  their A ticket and a Master Seaman would have taken their PLQ and earned their B ticket.

Nice try but wrong, an A ticket could be a OD to MS. A B ticket can be a LS through PO1. C tickets are PO1 to CPO1. So they are not linked to ranks. Promotions above LS are merited.

Offline Chief Stoker

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Re: MESO vs. MEM
« Reply #3 on: October 03, 2008, 16:32:14 »
Going from MESO to Mar Eng is a Occupational Transfer (OT) vice a Component Transfer  (CT)as the positions are that different. MESO are operators while Mar Eng earn certification through Canadian Forces Naval Engineering School Detachment  in Newfoundland.  I have watched PO1 MESO with 20 years service OT to Mar Eng and be posted to a ship as a Leading Seaman.  The timings to get your drawings done and standing your boards is set out when you start your training. It can be broken up between contracts, but if you do not meet the minimum time frame, a Training Review Board (TRB) may be held to ask and answer why you have not completed your training for that ticket. On average, for a MESO A Ticket can be achieved in 4-6 months of OJT.  Training is continuous in a member's career, it is never "finished". Yes, MESO tickets are linked with ranks. So a Leading Seaman would have earned  their A ticket and a Master Seaman would have taken their PLQ and earned their B ticket.

With the severe manning problems we are now facing, a PO1 MESO doing a component transfer will be granted his basic, NETP, PLQ, ILQ and ALQ. He keeps his sea time and now it seems if he is Class C when he transfers will get to keep his Class C pay until his reg force pay catches up. I haven't heard of any PO1 transfers although the highest rank i'd heard of be given is LS pay level 4. What I have heard now is that MESO's component transfers may be given upgrading to put them in line with their regular force counterparts, so higher ranks may be given out.
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Offline yak

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Re: MESO vs. MEM
« Reply #4 on: October 03, 2008, 17:51:45 »
Going from MESO to Mar Eng is a Occupational Transfer (OT) vice a Component Transfer  (CT)as the positions are that different. MESO are operators while Mar Eng earn certification through Canadian Forces Naval Engineering School Detachment  in Newfoundland.  I have watched PO1 MESO with 20 years service OT to Mar Eng and be posted to a ship as a Leading Seaman.  The timings to get your drawings done and standing your boards is set out when you start your training. It can be broken up between contracts, but if you do not meet the minimum time frame, a Training Review Board (TRB) may be held to ask and answer why you have not completed your training for that ticket. On average, for a MESO A Ticket can be achieved in 4-6 months of OJT.  Training is continuous in a member's career, it is never "finished". Yes, MESO tickets are linked with ranks. So a Leading Seaman would have earned  their A ticket and a Master Seaman would have taken their PLQ and earned their B ticket.

Actually, Mar Eng are coursed / trained through the Canadian Forces Fleet School Engineering Division, either in Halifax or Esquimalt.  The training you refer to in Newfoundland is part of the Marine Engineering Technician Training Program (METTP).

Mar Eng are certified after completing courses, OJT, and then passing exams and boards.

Rank and promotion are linked in the Mar Eng world.  For example, you will not see a MS Mar Eng Tech who has not attained a Cert 2.  You cannot be promoted to PO1 unless you have a Cert 3, likewise no promotion to CPO2 without a Cert 4.  Personnel who find themselves high on the merit list without their ticket will see that others will be promoted from beneath them.

I have never heard of a MESO, regardless of rank, being given a rank above that of LS in the RegF as a Mar Eng.  There is quite a large differnce in skill sets and training required.  For instance, the Mar Eng QL5 is the better part of two years covering academics and hand skills (from diesel maintenance to machining) before the Mar Eng Mech becomes a Tech (and gets spec pay).

Offline tumbling_dice

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Re: MESO vs. MEM
« Reply #5 on: October 04, 2008, 00:49:45 »
a PO1 MESO doing a component transfer will be granted his basic, NETP, PLQ, ILQ and ALQ.

Sorry, pretty new at this, I know what NETP is but not the others.  Taking a shot in the dark I'm assuming PLQ is Pratical Leadership Qualification.  Do you have to take these to continue in your trades training (ie. you can't do QL4 without PLQ) or are they only related to rank (ie. you need PLQ to be a PO2 but as stated before it doesn't affect where you are in your trades training).  Thanks alot for the help thus far.

Offline Sub-normal

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Re: MESO vs. MEM
« Reply #6 on: October 04, 2008, 01:00:57 »
Quote
Sorry, pretty new at this, I know what NETP is but not the others.  Taking a shot in the dark I'm assuming PLQ is Pratical Leadership Qualification.  Do you have to take these to continue in your trades training (ie. you can't do QL4 without PLQ) or are they only related to rank (ie. you need PLQ to be a PO2 but as stated before it doesn't affect where you are in your trades training).  Thanks alot for the help thus far.

PLQ (primary leadership qualification) is needed to be a Master Seaman, ILQ (intermediate leadership qualification)  is needed to be a PO1 and ALQ (advanced leadership Qualification) is need to become a CPO2.

Offline tumbling_dice

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Re: MESO vs. MEM
« Reply #7 on: October 04, 2008, 01:36:03 »
Do Naval Reserves do this training as well?  If so, full-time/part-time and where? And, as I asked before, does it relate to how far you can go in trades training. 

I know its a lot of questions and all the answers thus far have been extremely helpful.

Offline Sub-normal

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Re: MESO vs. MEM
« Reply #8 on: October 04, 2008, 01:58:47 »
Quote
Do Naval Reserves do this training as well?  If so, full-time/part-time and where? And, as I asked before, does it relate to how far you can go in trades training. 
I am not a reserve but as  far as I know the reserves do the same leadership course as the reg force since I had a couple of reserves on my reg force PLQ and these courses are done as full time courses and not part time.  The PLQs are done at various bases, but the ILQ and the ALQ are both done St Jean at the old CMR campus.

Offline Chief Stoker

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Re: MESO vs. MEM
« Reply #9 on: October 04, 2008, 10:22:15 »
Do Naval Reserves do this training as well?  If so, full-time/part-time and where? And, as I asked before, does it relate to how far you can go in trades training. 

I know its a lot of questions and all the answers thus far have been extremely helpful.

Naval Reserves do the same basic, NETP, PLQ, ILQ and ALQ as the regular force. It doesn't matter if your full time or part time, the only difference as a "full time reservist" you will advance faster in trade and rank faster tham a part time member. If you are full time and posted to a ship you will receieve Class C pay, which is the same as regular force basic pay.
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Offline tumbling_dice

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Re: MESO vs. MEM
« Reply #10 on: October 04, 2008, 15:11:39 »
Sorry to cause confusion, I was actually asking if reservists take PLQ, ILQ, ALQ, and CQ part-time or do they only take them full time with reg force members?

Offline Chief Stoker

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Re: MESO vs. MEM
« Reply #11 on: October 04, 2008, 15:36:54 »
Sorry to cause confusion, I was actually asking if reservists take PLQ, ILQ, ALQ, and CQ part-time or do they only take them full time with reg force members?

No nothing part time as far as I know, however most courses can be taken in the summer. All leadership courses for NAVRES usually have a mixed res/reg loading.
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Offline kratz

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Re: MESO vs. MEM
« Reply #12 on: October 04, 2008, 16:18:05 »
NavRes does offer a Ditributed Training (DT) PLQ through CFFS(Q). The first phase is in the NRD, with the second phase of the course is full-time in QC for three weeks.
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Offline tumbling_dice

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Re: MESO vs. MEM
« Reply #13 on: October 05, 2008, 02:01:16 »
In relation for to one of my other questions, after you do MESO QL1, QL2 is OJT experience (4-6 months).  It says that OJT can be tailored around the member's schedule.  Would I be able to, for example, do four months (120 days) over 60 weekends on the MCDVs? (The idea behind this is I'm thinking of doing a degree in Mechanical Engineering and thought that being a MESO would be the most relevant naval reserves occupation but this obviously puts strain on time especially because the University of Victoria has a mandatory Co-op program.)

Offline kratz

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Re: MESO vs. MEM
« Reply #14 on: October 05, 2008, 10:55:21 »
Most of the time, weekend training with NavRes is used for CRR training (ie: WHIMIS or HA), or team training (firefighting or damange control refresher). "Tailored training" referes to completing an Availability Report (AVREP) that is inputted into the system , so your Career Manager (CM) is able to offer you a one, two or three week contract that matches a hole on one of the ship's sailing training schedual. Unless you live in Halifax or Victoria, your NRD is not going to want to pay the travel costs to send you on OJT for 60 weekends. Depending on your AVREP,  OJT is ideally done in longer streatches, between 1, 2 or even 4 months on board. This offers you the greatest opportunity to complete the most of your package as possible.
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Offline E.R. Campbell

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Re: MESO vs. MEM
« Reply #15 on: October 05, 2008, 11:36:26 »
Most of the time, weekend training with NavRes is used for CRR training (ie: WHIMIS or HA), or team training (firefighting or damange control refresher). "Tailored training" referes to completing an Availability Report (AVREP) that is inputted into the system , so your Career Manager (CM) is able to offer you a one, two or three week contract that matches a hole on one of the ship's sailing training schedual. Unless you live in Halifax or Victoria, your NRD is not going to want to pay the travel costs to send you on OJT for 60 weekends. Depending on your AVREP,  OJT is ideally done in longer streatches, between 1, 2 or even 4 months on board. This offers you the greatest opportunity to complete the most of your package as possible.

Thanks for reminding me that CM = Career Mangler. Now could you expand CRR, WHIMIS and HA for we tired, old (very old) soldiers?
 
Thanks, again.

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Offline George Wallace

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Re: MESO vs. MEM
« Reply #16 on: October 05, 2008, 11:42:36 »
WHMIS    or      Workplace Hazardous Materials Information System

HA        or      Harassment Adviser (although some Trades have another meaning/use for this abbr.)

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Offline sledge

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Re: MESO vs. MEM
« Reply #17 on: October 05, 2008, 11:45:48 »
CRR= combat Readiness requirements

Offline Chief Stoker

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Re: MESO vs. MEM
« Reply #18 on: October 05, 2008, 12:44:04 »
Perhaps you should think about the ORCA's. At the last MESO council meeting it was proposed to open up training for primarily Class A members to get their tickets on the ORCA's and only have that qualification. You have have no problem getting your actual engine room ticket since you already have experience.
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Offline tumbling_dice

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Re: MESO vs. MEM
« Reply #19 on: October 05, 2008, 13:12:15 »
I've thought about ORCAs, but I'll probably have lots of experience on them already.  I do live in Victoria and I'm the only Cadet engineer on the island with my ORCA second engineer ticket, which means when they bring cadets out on the ORCA 9 times out of 10 I'll be their because I'm the least expensive option (compared to bring out a main land engineer or bring a paid regular or reserve force person out).

Offline tumbling_dice

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Re: MESO vs. MEM
« Reply #20 on: October 27, 2008, 01:48:09 »
On a related topic, I know MESOs are not the same as Marine Engineer Mechanics, but can they still volunteer to go on the heavies as engineers?

Offline Chief Stoker

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Re: MESO vs. MEM
« Reply #21 on: October 27, 2008, 04:23:11 »
Generally no. I have been on steamers before and was given training to get my AMOC,but that was a unique situation. With the state of our manning right now there's no way NAVRES is going to cut a contract for a MESO to sail on a CPF or 280. Now if they did, a MESO would have to train to get their ticket like any other roundsman, its possible but highly unlikely.
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Offline tumbling_dice

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Re: MESO vs. MEM
« Reply #22 on: October 27, 2008, 21:23:31 »
Has anyone done a co-op degree while working as a MESO, maybe N. McKay? I know it would be hard, by I've heard rumours that it can be done.

Offline N. McKay

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Re: MESO vs. MEM
« Reply #23 on: October 28, 2008, 13:41:23 »
Has anyone done a co-op degree while working as a MESO, maybe N. McKay?

Sorry -- civil engineer!

Offline tumbling_dice

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Re: MESO vs. MEM
« Reply #24 on: October 28, 2008, 16:48:17 »
Thanks anyway.