Author Topic: Army Communication & Information Systems Specialists (Sig Op, Lineman and LCIS Amalgamation)  (Read 650402 times)

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Offline Ludoc

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We're getting a patch?

Keep in mind the Sigs vote on beret colour was "we'll do it if everyone else is doing it." So not entirely our fault.
Everyone else is not doing it. The Engineers said "That sounds stupid, we don't want any part of it." So, can we skip it?

Offline MOOXE

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Offline IT_Dude_Joeschmo

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Hello everybody!

Well folks, don't worry, in about 2 more years, there will barely be a single (competent) IST to fight about!

Very very very many I know have already gotten out, are in the middle of getting out or already have OT's and plans in to get out. I would never have thought it would get as bad as it is for manning, but IST is a dead horse. Keep beating it, it'll turn into chunks of meat the dogs can eat soon enough.

From what I'm also told, it's close to that bad for all the Sigs trades, not just IST, but of course, IST is the worst off. I'm very curious to see how they will fill the vacuum. Do the higher chains of command even know how bad it is? As in, the Chief Sig and his Colonel counterpart? Or have they been kept in the dark and that's part of the problem? Is there a complete culture of 'yes' men silently deleting the entire trade by attrition?

PS> Yes, I left a year ago and am a civilian now as well but I'm still supporting the military in my job.
PPS> Going to go change my name now as I'm not 'IST' anymore.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2017, 11:22:45 by BeyondTheNow »
"When I retire, I want to become a gay Hollywood actor, they always make more money!"... My old boss's plans ;)

Offline c_canuk

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The only people baiting ISTs with spec pay is ISTs. If you deserve it, you'll get it. Technicians who lost it because of this gongshow are the only people with a right to complain, if you bought the sales pitch that everyone was getting Spec 1 and CISTMs were going to get Spec 2, I really don't have much sympathy because that was like expecting a unicorn to show up and hand you a cheque.

I take slight issue with this...

IST didn't exist when the SNCO and Senior Officers came to the town halls and presented us with the SME who was going to get us spec pay.

IST's didn't brow beat a lot of us until we accepted the trade change. As a junior MCpl I assumed with so many senior SNCOs telling my I'd be a fool not to take IST, I should accept their advice since they are in those positions because they are supposed to more than me.

You know they guys who are supposed to be the pinnacle of leadership, who achieved professional competence, appreciate their own strengths and limitations while pursuing self improvement, seek and accept responsibility, lead by example, make sure their followers know their meaning and intent, then lead them to the completion of the mission, know their soldiers and promote their welfare, develop leadership potential of their followers, make sound and timely decisions, train their soldiers as a team and employ them up to their capabilities, and finally, keep their followers informed of the mission, the changing situation and the overall picture.

Yes, currently many ISTs are coddling the last embers of hope; they are in denial that losing 2 years of progress on their careers while AORs expand and numbers shrink, isn't going to pay off. They are partly responsible for keeping the idea alive, because many of us can't stomach that we took that hit for nothing, so some people at the top could get a "leading change - mastered" point on their PERs.

Unfortunately the architects of this crap show are long gone and won't be held accountable. The current architects won't soldier up and call it a lost battle, they keep kicking the can down the road, feeding that little ember of hope. So no, it's not just ISTs feeding this thing.
"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."
-John Stewart Mill

Offline IT_Dude_Joeschmo

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I take slight issue with this...

IST didn't exist when the SNCO and Senior Officers came to the town halls and presented us with the SME who was going to get us spec pay.

IST's didn't brow beat a lot of us until we accepted the trade change. As a junior MCpl I assumed with so many senior SNCOs telling my I'd be a fool not to take IST, I should accept their advice since they are in those positions because they are supposed to more than me.

You know they guys who are supposed to be the pinnacle of leadership, who achieved professional competence, appreciate their own strengths and limitations while pursuing self improvement, seek and accept responsibility, lead by example, make sure their followers know their meaning and intent, then lead them to the completion of the mission, know their soldiers and promote their welfare, develop leadership potential of their followers, make sound and timely decisions, train their soldiers as a team and employ them up to their capabilities, and finally, keep their followers informed of the mission, the changing situation and the overall picture.

Yes, currently many ISTs are coddling the last embers of hope; they are in denial that losing 2 years of progress on their careers while AORs expand and numbers shrink, isn't going to pay off. They are partly responsible for keeping the idea alive, because many of us can't stomach that we took that hit for nothing, so some people at the top could get a "leading change - mastered" point on their PERs.

Unfortunately the architects of this crap show are long gone and won't be held accountable. The current architects won't soldier up and call it a lost battle, they keep kicking the can down the road, feeding that little ember of hope. So no, it's not just ISTs feeding this thing.

*Extended Slow Clap*

Also, IST's are 'just nerds' who 'don't deserve spec pay' until you ask someone ELSE to do something related to computers.... Oh hey Sig buddy working in the CP, if we give you access to active directory, can you reset passwords for all your users in the CP or the TOC or the HQ? ... 'Oh no way man, I'm not smart enough for that computer ****'..... IST is then woken up at 3am because user X lost password for the 3rd time and there are no other IST's around. Or nobody willing. Nobody wanting to pitch in.

I watched other Jr Sigs on my last tour, in the infancy of their careers, shy away from any/all IST related activities b/c they didn't want to have to work that hard. Or that much, or have that level of responsibility on their shoulders...

Capt: Hey IST, when is the CLASSIFIEDNETWORK going to be back up so, you know, the HQ can do it's job and there's a point to everyone sitting here in the desert.
IST: I'm already working on it Sir, don't worry, we'll just switch to our failover and be back up in a jiffy.
Other Sigs: F-that...
"When I retire, I want to become a gay Hollywood actor, they always make more money!"... My old boss's plans ;)

Offline CSTDan

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I don't get this animosity. Any Sig worth his/her weight in salt should recognize the contributions of other trades.
CST and IST alike have technically challenging jobs. Both have merit, so we should not diminish the value of one over the other. It serves no good.

Offline Pre-flight

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Haro everybody!

Well folks, don't worry, in about 2 more years, there will barely be a single (competent) IST to fight about!

Very very very many I know have already gotten out, are in the middle of getting out or already have OT's and plans in to get out. I would never have thought it would get as bad as it is for manning, but IST is a dead horse. Keep beating it, it'll turn into chunks of meat the dogs can eat soon enough.

From what I'm also told, it's close to that bad for all the Sigs trades, not just IST, but of course, IST is the worst off. I'm very curious to see how they will fill the vacuum. Do the higher chains of command even know how bad it is? As in, the Chief Sig and his Colonel counterpart? Or have they been kept in the dark and that's part of the problem? Is there a complete culture of 'yes' men silently deleting the entire trade by attrition?

PS> Yes, I left a year ago and am a civilian now as well but I'm still supporting the military in my job.
PPS> Going to go change my name now as I'm not 'IST' anymore.

No doubt.

A bunch has left, including me, and I know of at least two others that were on their way out of the trade before they were bribed to pull their applications in exchange for OUTCAN postings. Getting the run around for 7 years is long enough. Honestly I feel kind of stupid for waiting around that long.

Offline MOOXE

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Quote
I reported to you one month ago that after having developed an amended Military Employment Structure Implementation Plan (MESIP) to better reflect the current compensation structure of the ACISS trade, we were working with Director General Compensation and Benefits (DGCB) to guarantee that the implementation of the compensation and benefits component to the amended ACISS MESIP achieved the precise, desired result, and that no member of the ACISS team would be adversely affected. It has already been a turbulent year in respect to remunerating you properly for your excellent service and we needed to guarantee precision moving forward. At that time, I also indicated I would provide a sitrep back to you as soon as it was practical to do so.

Today, I am pleased to provide such an update. First, DGCB has advised that the aim is for all former qualified LCIS Techs to have their specialist 1 pay reinstated no later than 30 November 17, correcting a departmental error and finally offering the compensation the CAF agreed you deserved one year ago. Your pay accounts will be fully adjusted and debits you accrued due to an error in the CDS Order on ACISS Spec Pay will be corrected. While no further obstacles are anticipated, should you encounter any challenges, I would ask that you use your local chain of command to indicate issues so that we may learn of any difficulties immediately and subsequently address them immediately.

It should be no secret at this time that Director Royal Canadian Corps of Signals (DRCCS), Colonel Parsons, has also petitioned the Commander of the Canadian Army (CA) and the CDS himself to grant specialist 1 pay to CST and IST retroactive to 2011. While we make no guarantees as to whether it will be approved, we are aware that this request has been perceived favorably and has gained the support of the CA and the leadership of Military Personnel Command (MPC) - who is ultimately responsible for your compensation. I will provide an update on this request in the very near future.

Of significance, CSTs who were affected by the CDS Order from last year, which resulted in them receiving specialist pay regardless of their eligibility, will not ‎have any corrective actions taken against their pay accounts until a final decision has been rendered on the future of ACISS compensation and specialist pay.

I appreciate your patience and I fully realize that this has not only been a difficult year; for some, you are entering the 7th year of performing work which is deserving of a higher level of compensation. It is for this reason that senior RCCS leaders have worked tirelessly to negotiate and position a fair deal to ensure you are paid properly for the work you perform. We are not at the finish line yet, but it is in sight. I ask that you continue to trust that the Director is working diligently on your behalf and ensuring that actions to improve compensation for ACISS are proceeding as quickly as possible in light of departmental pressures, the complexity of the task and the need to avoid error.

You will hear from me again as soon as there is more to report on, but no later than November. In the interim, I ask that you utilize your chain of command for all queries concerning this matter so that the Director will continue to be informed and in the optimal position to advocate on your behalf.

A translated version of this message will be provided by the end of next week.


Respectfully,


LCol Ian R Marchand

Offline renegade

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I wonder how many months it will be for a response to this..  :waiting:

Offline ringo598

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Andddd a bit of an update...is there hope?

Sent: December-08-17 1:08 PM
Subject: D/DLCI update: Pay Status as of 8 Dec 2017
**Sent on behalf of LCol Marchand**
** This email has been sent to affected members of the RCCS, all RCCS Senior Officers and Senior NCOs **

The aim of this message is to provide an update on both the reinstatement of specialist pay for former LCIS Techs as well as Commander Canadian Army (CCA) request to assign CST and IST to the specialist pay trade group.
Reinstatement of specialist pay for former LCIS Techs

As articulated in my 1 December message, technical difficulties have delayed the transactions required in the pay system to properly compensate former LCIS Techs. The priority as 2018 approaches is to eliminate all known scenarios that would potentially create hardship or confusion with CRA for individuals for the 2017 reporting period. Consequently, the following actions have been initiated or completed at this time:

1. Individuals in debit situations will have their pay accounts corrected. If any such situation still exist as of 12 December, it should be reported immediately via the individual’s CoC.

2. For CSTs who received specialist pay following the implementation of the erroneous CDS Order in November 2016 and find themselves in a credit situation, we are evaluating options to similarly safeguard against income tax implications. The intent is to avoid credits (taxable income) being included on individuals’ 2017 T4 for pay they technically were not intended to receive. Presently, we are working with Director Military Pay and Allowances Processing (DMPAP) to determine the best course of action. Additional information will be provided next week, but I assure all CSTs in credit situations that any actions taken to protect them will be purely administrative and that their pay accounts will not be negatively impacted.

As applicable, former LCIS Techs who find themselves in neutral or credit situations are authorized to have themselves removed from pre-determined pay (PDP) status. An advisory to this effect has been sent from DMPAP on behalf of the CA to pay offices across the CAF.

Finally, former LCIS Techs who’s pay accounts were not affected but are owed retroactive compensation will see their pay accounts corrected in the new year.
We continue to work with all stakeholders to determine the speed with which this can be executed in 2018.
CCA request to assign CST and IST to the specialist pay trade group

As reported on 13 October, Director Royal Canadian Corps of Signals (DRCCS) has petitioned the Commander of the Canadian Army (CCA) and the CDS himself to grant specialist 1 pay to CST and IST retroactive to 2011. This request has been supported by the Commander Canadian Army and the Commander Military Personnel Command (CMPC), and we believe that a CDS decision is imminent. This situation will be updated as it evolves.
Please continue to forward‎ questions and concerns through the chain of command. I will provide a follow-on update next week.

A translated version will also be provided next week.

LCol Ian R Marchand
"Anything that is complex is not useful and anything that is useful is simple. This has been my whole life's motto."- Mikhail Kalashnikov, Creator of the AK47

Offline rmc_wannabe

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I think the fact that the troops affected by this are still skeptical is testament to how badly the senior leadership have handled this whole mess from day one.

I stopped holding my breath 3 D RCCSs ago.
"One of the most feared expressions in modern times is 'The computer is down.'"
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Offline Alpheus

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Just arrived in my inbox.

Quote
*** Sent on behalf of LCol I.R. Marchand ***

** This email has been sent to all affected mil members as well as RCCS Senior Officers and Senior NCOs  - plse re-distribute as required **


Today, I am happy to announce that the CDS order assigning CST and IST sub-occupations to the Specialist 1 Trade Group has been signed. The CDS order has an effective date of 1 October 2011, the date the ACISS occupation stood-up.

To say that you have all been patient is a significant understatement. Trust that the leadership of the RCCS has never doubted that this is the outcome that you all deserve for the tremendous work have done and continue to do every day. The Director and the DLCI team will work closely with all stakeholders to ensure that the required corrections in the pay system are performed as soon as possible and correctly reflect the compensation you are entitled to. Please bear in mind that due to the pay system complexity to execute retroactive compensation that reaches back more than six years in certain cases, it may require several months in the new year to address each individual account.

Your leadership will provide periodic updates in the new year as to progress toward of our objective of 100% of affected members receiving their retroactive compensation.

For individuals who have received payouts or presently have credits on their pay accounts linked to the implementation of the erroneous CDS Order in November 2016, pay offices have been directed to release these funds (for individuals who did not receive payouts) and remove members from pre-determined pay (PDP).

As noted, corrections to pay accounts for all other CSTs and ISTs will be dealt with in the new year as expeditiously as possible.

Please continue to forward‎ questions and concerns through the chain of command.

Happy Holidays.

I have complete faith that someone, somewhere, somehow will completely eff this up as usual.

Offline ringo598

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IF FINALLY HAPPENED!  MERRY CHRISTMAS FOLKS!  IST/CST Spec Pay approved.  My info says date of your backpay is 2.1 qual date.

Edited as someone posted the message before me :D
"Anything that is complex is not useful and anything that is useful is simple. This has been my whole life's motto."- Mikhail Kalashnikov, Creator of the AK47

Offline Alpheus

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When is pay inputed into the system?  I'm one of the credit on my pay account, if I don't see the backpay at the end Dec, I still have a tax/EI headache to deal with.

Offline PuckChaser

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Thank God all the bitching will be over and people can get back to being Signallers again.

Offline dapaterson

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Thank God all the bitching will be over and people can get back to being Signallers again.

I thought that was PO 401.01 on all signals courses.
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Offline ringo598

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It'll be interesting to see if they use my 5A qual date, or my 2.1 date for the backpay as they have a 3 year difference.

Eitherway, hopefully this will help retention a bit and help get more guys in the door.
"Anything that is complex is not useful and anything that is useful is simple. This has been my whole life's motto."- Mikhail Kalashnikov, Creator of the AK47

Offline rmc_wannabe

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Thank God all the bitching will be over and people can get back to being Signallers again.

This has never been about the bitching. Its been a lesson in not letting your mouth write the cheque before anything gets approved.

I was there when this whole crap show started. I remember numerous high level NCOs and officers dangling this carrot to try and retain a Sigs Corps bleeding skilled workers.

Cpl Bloggins has a long memory and a loud mouth. The CoC of the CAF would be remiss if they did not take this debacle as a learning opportunity in integrity.
"One of the most feared expressions in modern times is 'The computer is down.'"
 -Norman Ralph Augustine

Offline PuckChaser

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I thought that was PO 401.01 on all signals courses.
Pretty sure that one is Alcoholism, I'll have to check my course reports.

Offline sidemount

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I thought alcoholism was just one of those things that is on all of them....like safety only more practical.

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Offline Cobrajr

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At least I wont be doing taxes for money I don't have now.
I don't expect to see anything done until the new year on my account since tomorrow is our last day of work at my unit.
But wow its finally happened, the weight is gone, I don't know how to feel.
I seriously hope this helps bring more people to CST/IST, we are hurting BAD. My shop is empty, used to be 10+, it will be down to 2 qualified workers in the new year with an increased workload from when it was over 10.

Congrats everyone! Spend it wisely!
« Last Edit: December 13, 2017, 21:56:52 by Cobrajr »

Offline Daywalker

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So glad this crap is finally sorted out for you guys!

Hmmm, does this mean that those of us (being a 2.1 qualified CST CPL) who OT'd to another trade also get our back pay during this time period (up to when we OT'd) ?
« Last Edit: December 13, 2017, 23:54:59 by Daywalker »

Offline walrath

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I'm glad this finally happened for you guys, even though I OT'd 4 years ago.

Offline armyman7877

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Well it looks like the lineman are not getting tech pay. No offense but the lineman  climb poles and do more courses and way more technical stuff and are deserving of tech pay as much as the other trades.  Why in the world are the lst trade being left out?
« Last Edit: December 14, 2017, 10:57:52 by armyman7877 »

Offline PuckChaser

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Well it looks like the lineman are not getting tech pay. No offense but the lineman  climb poles and do more courses and way more technical stuff and are deserving of tech pay as much as the other trades.  Why in the world are the lst trade being left out?

Cause you guys, like Core, didn't have all the complaining that IST did to sneak themselves into the CDS order assigning pay groups. Too focused on the job I guess. The only thing that should have been fixed was all the former LCIS folks should have had vested rights and kept their spec pay until a decision was reached through the proper process. All the new folks recruited into the new trades didn't know what they were missing.

That being said, I wouldn't be surprised if LST slowly disappeared in the next 30-40 years with the way technology is moving. Climbing poles is a course, and anyone can be taught to do it. When they did the last big working group, LST advisors were trying to become in charge of HCLOS and WiFi as bearer systems, because they could see the writing on the wall that they cannot just rely on climbing poles anymore. CST might end up dead if they don't evolve either, especially if they're going to keep IST around.