Author Topic: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS  (Read 443654 times)

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Offline Swampbuggy

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #1300 on: June 21, 2018, 03:51:51 »
That question was asked.  The presenters were not going to commit to a timeframe but said they expect builders trials to take up to a year.  Lots of integration needs to happen from IPMS to Nav and Comms systems.  Systems integration can take quite a while.

With her being the 1st in to hit the water, I’d guess these trials will be the most time consuming for the clsss. I’m sure lessons will be learned that will make things more streamlined for the others. Thanks for the info, Underway.

Offline MarkOttawa

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #1301 on: June 21, 2018, 16:23:15 »
Somehow I don't find the arguments here in favour of the A/OPS all that convincing--seems to me that new, desperately needed, CCG icebreakers, with RCMP or Fisheries Officers on board (indeed even RCN personnel) armed as necessary, could do the useful stuff the CGAI piece suggests. In any event Harper gov't foisted the concept on the RCN when they realized that the Navy did not operate icebreakers,while their 2005-6 election platform said they would buy three armed ones for the service ( http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa-buying-up-to-8-arctic-patrol-ships-1.651892 ):

Quote
Unarmed Warships: What are the AOPS for?
...
Despite their flying the naval ensign, the AOPS are not intended to be warships. That is not a mistake, it was a careful decision stemming from several years of government and CAF assessment of threats and requirements. The security threat to the Canadian Arctic is unconventional, and will likely remain so, centred on monitoring, policing, and assisting civilian and commercial activity. These are the low-risk, high-probability security threats projected to emerge as a result of the increased use and development of the Arctic...
https://www.cgai.ca/unarmed_warships_what_are_the_aops_for

Mark
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Online Chris Pook

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #1302 on: June 21, 2018, 18:54:16 »
'Sfunny

"not intended to be warships"

So why "warship" standards and "warship" costs?
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Offline Underway

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #1303 on: June 21, 2018, 22:14:24 »
The're built to civilian standards.  Hence the Lloyds Certification.  They are classified as Non-Combatant ships for the navy same as the MCDV's.  They aren't supposed to go anywhere something can kill a ship by shooting it.  That's what the Frigates are for.  They are the SUV, LUVW or whatever equivalent you wish to draw for the CAF on the water.

Somehow I don't find the arguments here in favour of the A/OPS all that convincing--seems to me that new, desperately needed, CCG icebreakers, with RCMP or Fisheries Officers on board (indeed even RCN personnel) armed as necessary, could do the useful stuff the CGAI piece suggests. In any event Harper gov't foisted the concept on the RCN when they realized that the Navy did not operate icebreakers,while their 2005-6 election platform said they would buy three armed ones for the service ( http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa-buying-up-to-8-arctic-patrol-ships-1.651892 ):

If you believe that we need to re-role the CCG into a constabulary force (a la USCG) then that's an entirely different discussion.

Offline Colin P

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #1304 on: June 22, 2018, 10:41:12 »
One hopes that any potential enemy abides by the rules we have laid down for these ships. The next serious naval conflict is going to be a "come as you are" event and like the Falklands ships that are there will be used and some will be lost.

Offline MarkOttawa

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #1305 on: June 22, 2018, 11:14:56 »
Underway:

Quote
...
If you believe that we need to re-role the CCG into a constabulary force (a la USCG) then that's an entirely different discussion.

Such a CCG change not necessary. As I noted they can provide platforms (vessels) for the other armed agencies to use in fulfilling their mandates--which they do now for armed Fisheries Officers and RCMP on Great Lakes/St. Lawrence:

Quote
1) ...Through the acquisition of new Mid-Shore Patrol Vessels, the department [DFO/CCG] is increasing its on-water capability for providing platform support to security and law enforcement organizations...
https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/corporate-services/planning-dpr-2013-14-1188.html

Quote
2) Marine Security Enforcement Teams (MSET)
...
The Marine Security Enforcement Team (MSET) program is a joint Royal Canadian Mounted Police (RCMP)-Canadian Coast Guard (CCG) project that was established in 2005 to enhance marine security in the Great Lakes-St. Lawrence Seaway (GL-SLS) area. The program combines the law enforcement powers of the RCMP with CCG vessels and expertise in order to provide an armed, on-water law enforcement capacity in one of Canada’s busiest marine regions.

...RCMP officers working in uniform aboard patrol vessels that are operated and maintained by CCG personnel. The role of these units is to patrol the GL-SLS area, provide on-water law enforcement, and be able to deliver a fast, armed response to potential threats...
http://www.ccg-gcc.gc.ca/eng/CCG/Maritime-Security/Fact-Sheet/MSET

No reason RCN personnel could not also be carried if necessary/appropriate, with weapons mounts pre-fitted on CCG ships.

Mark
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Offline Colin P

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #1306 on: June 22, 2018, 11:54:07 »
Training CCG crews to fire and care for mounted .50cals would be easy, the training could be done during the regular duty cycles with little or no OT for the CCG crews, nor would practice be an issue, both West and East coast have accessible ranges the ships could use. You would have a small navy team going from ship to ship to do the training.
The big issue is teaching the Ships Officers and ashore management, Command and Control of the deployment and use of the guns. The fire orders and comms would be easy, but getting people and management past the ROE's and into the mindset of engaging living targets is the big issue and may take time. Those CCG crews would provide protection to other services boarding parties Navy or RCMP which is a whole other kettle of fish.

Offline MarkOttawa

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #1307 on: June 25, 2018, 14:11:53 »
Good grief--look at the three ships Norwegian Coast Guard is getting for $860 million total whereas we are paying Irving some $500 million each for what look like quite similar A/OPS ( http://dgpaapp.forces.gc.ca/en/defence-capabilities-blueprint/project-details.asp?id=1728 ).  And compare our length of construction with how fast Norway will get them:

Quote

Norway's new Coast Guard vessels for Arctic waters

With a length of 136 meters, the three will be the largest Coast Guard vessels sailing the European Arctic.

Norway’s Ministry of Defense on Monday signed contract with VARD Langsten yard for construction of the three ice-classed Coast Guard vessels. The contract has a value of 5,2 billion kroner (€552 million).

The vessels will be specially designed to withstand operations in demanding Arctic areas, but will as well be capable of sailing in worldwide operations in all weather and sea conditions. Keywords are strong ocean-going capacities, long-distance transits, search-and-rescue operations, surveillance and oil-recovery.

For Norway, these capabilities are important in a time when the Coast Guard gets more waters to patrol as the sea-ice in the Arctic melts away in the northern Barents Sea and Arctic Ocean north of Svalbard.

Deliveries are set to beginning of 2022, 2023 and 2024 [emphasis added] and the three vessels are to replace the current Nordkapp-class Coast Guard vessels,  «KV Nordkapp», «KV Senja» and «KV Andenes»...

VARD Langsten yard is the same yard that built Norway’s current largest Coast Guard vessel «KV Svalbard».


https://thebarentsobserver.com/en/security/2018/06/norways-news-coast-guard-vessels-arctic-waters

Note that A/OPS design is based on the Svalbard mentioned above--presumably the new Norwegian ships will be more advanced than that predecessor.

From 2013:

Quote
CBC Does Good Digging on RCN’s Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ships’ Bizarre Design Cost
https://cgai3ds.wordpress.com/2013/05/03/mark-collins-cbc-does-good-digging-on-rcns-arcticoffshore-patrol-ships-bizarre-design-cost/

Mark
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Offline Colin P

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #1308 on: June 25, 2018, 15:15:08 »
Does the 500 million each include non-ship costs like docks, jetties, life time personal costs?

Offline Czech_pivo

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #1309 on: June 25, 2018, 21:29:41 »
The hulls are being built by Vards yards (say that quickly 5 times), in Romania, definitely a factor on a portion of the cost.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2018, 05:25:14 by Czech_pivo »

Offline MarkOttawa

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #1310 on: June 25, 2018, 22:00:31 »
More on VARD (Fincantieri subsidiary) sensibly building hulls of new Norwegian Coast Guard A/OPS-similar ships in Romania.  Boy are we stupid to build-in-Canada for pure political motives supported by all parties. Defence--or CCG needs--pale here before Jobs! Jobs! Jobs!
https://navaltoday.com/2018/06/25/vard-inks-nok-5bn-deal-for-3-norwegian-coast-guard-vessels/

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Offline Uzlu

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #1311 on: June 26, 2018, 07:13:04 »
Boy are we stupid to build-in-Canada for pure political motives supported by all parties. Defence--or CCG needs--pale here before Jobs! Jobs! Jobs!
Not pure political motives, there are good reasons why it is supported by all the parties, and not just jobs, jobs, jobs.  https://army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,120223.msg1517415.html#msg1517415
Good grief--look at the three ships Norwegian Coast Guard is getting for $860 million total whereas we are paying Irving some $500 million each for what look like quite similar A/OPS
Your comparison might be unfair.  If the price for the Harry DeWolfs includes things like costs resulting from production, spare parts, ammunition, training, government program management, and upgrades to existing facilities but the Norwegian ships do not, then the comparison is unfair.  The Parliamentary Budget Officer estimates if Canada bought fifteen surface combatants from another country without any changes, there would be a saving of about 25 per cent on the total program cost.  So I doubt very much three Harry DeWolfs can be built overseas for about $860 million.

Offline Colin P

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #1312 on: June 26, 2018, 10:41:42 »
Not to mention that the yard will need some new builds to recapitalize their equipment, without that type of improvement, they will be unable to do ship repair and maintenance, in which case your taking your ships out of the country. What you are suggesting is political suicide. By all means force some pencil sharpening and take down Irvings Empire, but ship building is a strategic resource. 

Offline Czech_pivo

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #1313 on: June 26, 2018, 11:01:43 »
The reality is that there is so much to replace over the next 15yrs - Subs, Coast Guard, Kingston Class - that Irving's Halifax operations and Seaspans's operations are too small and over-booked to handle all of the upcoming replacements.  Our choices will be 3 fold - do nothing (always a leading option here in Canada), use Davie or go overseas.  Regarding the Subs being replaced in 15yrs, we'll never build them here since we don't have any desire to add that expertise internally, so we'll end up buying Brit or French subs, whether used or new.  Regarding the Coast Guard ships and the Kingston replacements, Davie is the only yard with the size/volume/expertise left in which to build them.  I highly doubt we'll go overseas for any of it.

Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #1314 on: June 26, 2018, 11:05:47 »
Not to mention that the yard will need some new builds to recapitalize their equipment, without that type of improvement, they will be unable to do ship repair and maintenance, in which case your taking your ships out of the country. What you are suggesting is political suicide. By all means force some pencil sharpening and take down Irvings Empire, but ship building is a strategic resource

It actually most certainly is for a nation, such as Canada, that is an island nation. It may be difficult to fathom for a country so vast in landmass but we, Canada, as the United States are and the UK before, and especially as we share the continental defence with the US, are basically ocean-bound in our defence needs and our collective economic interests. Even our second closest neighbour - France - could only invade from the sea.

So, yes, for us, the capacity to control our own shipbuilding is an essential strategic capacity, unlike Norway, which even though it has extensive coast lines, is not reliant on the access to the sea for its national defence or livelihood, at least not outside the more local aspects of seaward defence.

Online Chris Pook

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #1315 on: June 26, 2018, 11:25:03 »
First off - From Mark's last post - second to last paragraph.

Quote
Commenting on the recently signed contract, Mette Sørfonden, Director General of NDMA, said: “Due to national security interests, the Norwegian government decided that the competition should be restricted to Norwegian yards only. Vard Group with its Vard Langsten yard was the provider that overall satisfied the defined requirements for solution and the navy and the coast guard’s needs in the best manner.”

The Norwegians decided that the ship should be built by Norwegians for Norwegians on National Security* grounds. They determined they need to keep the design capability in house. 

The yard decided that they could contract out the metal banging to the Romanians.  The Norwegians apparently agreed that that was not a strategic imperative.  Apparently, in my view of their opinion, metal banging is not a primary skill set.   And the Romanians will do it faster and cheaper, in warmer waters, than the Norwegians.

On the other hand - the matter of cost of the vessel and the cost of the project.

We cost the project.  They cost the vessel. 

Apples to oranges right enough.  The thing is, we never get around to actually costing the vessel.  Direct comparisons are difficult if not impossible.  They don't have to be.  They are quite simple if line item cost estimates on the project are prepared.

One might be inclined to suspect the reluctance to disclose the actual separate cost of the vessel provides benefit to some parties involved in the trade.  One might even be convinced that the obfuscation was intentional.

It might be suspected that some parties might wish to hide the actual costs so as to further agendas. 

With a high price fewer hulls can be afforded.  Fewer capabilities are available. Fewer commitments can be made.  Fewer expectations exist.  Fewer demands are made.
With a high price more profits might be available.
With a high price more money might be injected into the economy through paying Canadians to buy from Canadians buying from international suppliers.

But I suspect that only a cynic would suspect such things.

* Interesting point about what constitutes a National Security issue - retained capabilities apparently qualify.

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Offline LoboCanada

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #1316 on: June 27, 2018, 14:41:35 »
Why don't we start costing vessels differently then? If it makes things sound more expensive than they are then just change the way we count then...

I don't understand the thinking behind saving money by building offshore (unless its highly-specialized). Isn't there a better return/optics by spending the billions on shipyards and other Canadian companies within Canada? The money going through the local/national economy for these projects partly justifies the added expense.

Any new pics of HDW?

Offline Colin P

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #1317 on: July 02, 2018, 00:29:09 »
looking good


Offline Fred Herriot

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #1318 on: July 02, 2018, 12:21:22 »
Does anyone have a date for the planned launching?
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Offline Chief Engineer

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #1319 on: July 02, 2018, 12:25:30 »
Does anyone have a date for the planned launching?

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Offline Navy_Pete

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #1320 on: July 05, 2018, 19:14:27 »
The reality is that there is so much to replace over the next 15yrs - Subs, Coast Guard, Kingston Class - that Irving's Halifax operations and Seaspans's operations are too small and over-booked to handle all of the upcoming replacements.  Our choices will be 3 fold - do nothing (always a leading option here in Canada), use Davie or go overseas.  Regarding the Subs being replaced in 15yrs, we'll never build them here since we don't have any desire to add that expertise internally, so we'll end up buying Brit or French subs, whether used or new.  Regarding the Coast Guard ships and the Kingston replacements, Davie is the only yard with the size/volume/expertise left in which to build them.  I highly doubt we'll go overseas for any of it.

MCDVs can actually be built at a lot of shipyards as they are pretty small, and they would be pretty competitive as ships in that tonnage are their bread and butter, so if it was an open competition there are a lot of yards that could win it aside from Davie, and the GoC may want to spread the love anyway.

Subs are pretty specialized, and if you look to Australia, there are some great comparisons with the Collins class sub on why it's a terrible idea for Canada to try and build them here.  Aside from the Brits or French, there is also other good options for import, like some of the German subs.  Don't know if the US would ever export them, but their crewing model is nuts anyway, so probably a non starter.

Offline Colin P

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #1321 on: July 05, 2018, 19:43:04 »
BC Ferries just released an expression in interest for 5 ferries to replace the C class (139m , 6969 DWT) likely go overseas though as little capacity here on the West Coast.

Offline LoboCanada

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #1322 on: July 11, 2018, 11:41:54 »
So with the gap between AOPS and CSC, is it almost guaranteed that they'll be another 1 or 2 AOPS to built? What else could be shoehorned into that gap that needs work? Half-fleet quick MCDV refit?

The reality is that there is so much to replace over the next 15yrs - Subs, Coast Guard, Kingston Class - that Irving's Halifax operations and Seaspans's operations are too small and over-booked to handle all of the upcoming replacements.  Our choices will be 3 fold - do nothing (always a leading option here in Canada), use Davie or go overseas.  Regarding the Subs being replaced in 15yrs, we'll never build them here since we don't have any desire to add that expertise internally, so we'll end up buying Brit or French subs, whether used or new.  Regarding the Coast Guard ships and the Kingston replacements, Davie is the only yard with the size/volume/expertise left in which to build them.  I highly doubt we'll go overseas for any of it.

I agree, but this is also a positive in a way too.

What is our capacity to have new classes/ships every year? How long does it take to retrain?

I think its much better for the industry, and a perfect time too. Knowing that there's almost guaranteed govt work for the next 25 years as most of the RCN and CCG fleets need big refits or complete replacement already. Even if the MCDV replacement/refit project was complete, theres nothing industry could do for years anyways.

Offline Swampbuggy

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #1323 on: July 11, 2018, 13:54:50 »
So with the gap between AOPS and CSC, is it almost guaranteed that they'll be another 1 or 2 AOPS to built? What else could be shoehorned into that gap that needs work? Half-fleet quick MCDV refit?

Are we absolutely past the point of no return WRT the “gap”?

Or is there still a chance we could pick a ship early next year and then start cutting steel by end of 2022?

I’m not opposed to a couple more AOPS, 7-8 may even be enough to retire a few MCDV’s sooner rather than later.




Offline AirDet

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Re: Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ship AOPS
« Reply #1324 on: July 11, 2018, 14:19:58 »
I’m not opposed to a couple more AOPS, 7-8 may even be enough to retire a few MCDV’s sooner rather than later.

Was the intent to use the AOPS to replace the MCDV's. I hadn't heard that before. Those 2 ships may have similar abilities but they also have significant differences.

What is the plan to replace the MCDV's?
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