Author Topic: Suicides  (Read 81021 times)

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Offline medicineman

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Re: Suicides
« Reply #150 on: April 16, 2014, 13:31:15 »
OSISS is Peers support, and you are confusing what the IPSC is with OSISS when you say " it helps troops get back to their units as quickly as possible".  The Senior Author of the study, and he can not get a key point of his own argument correct????  Sweet heart of Jesus and his Blessed Mother get your acronyms right!!!!

Tess,

See my previous statement above.

Kind of reminds me of going to a drug pusher lunch or conference - you really have to sort through the BS in the presentations and the "studies" to make sure everything is above board, what's real, what's manipulated and what is a really crappy used car. 

MM
MM

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Offline MCG

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Re: Suicides
« Reply #151 on: July 06, 2014, 12:41:25 »
More new statistics that raise questions as opposed to answer them.
Quote
Internal DND analysis paints refined picture of military suicide crisis
Murray Brewster, The Canadian Press
CTV News
06 Jul 2014

OTTAWA -- Post-traumatic stress is thought to have played a role in only three of ten suicides in the Canadian military last winter, and the majority of soldiers who took lives were not in danger of being kicked out.

The information is contained in a brief statistical summary obtained by The Canadian Press under access-to-information legislation.

Senior brass cobbled it together as they tried to wrap their heads around what was causing a spate of deaths between November 2013 and February 2014, and the data paints a counter-intuitive portrait of the crisis.

Public perception has been that the suicides were a direct result of the Afghan war, when in fact only five of the 10 had served in the war-torn country -- and the majority of those for one tour.

Military medical officials cautioned reading too much into the summary, saying little can be "concluded about suicide trends," but the information is consistent with what investigators and health officials have uncovered.

Maj. Nicole Meszaros said it's "incredibly difficult to predict who will take their lives."

The figures show the bulk of the soldiers, although being under care for various conditions, were being retained in the military "without restriction" and no significant career changes were on the horizon.

Seventy per cent of them did not have a known history of suicide attempts.

In terms of a social profile, seven of the 10 were divorced or separated. The majority came from the army and only a handful had any legal or disciplinary issues within the past two years.

"It is not unique to the (Canadian Armed Forces) or uncommon in Canadian society to have somebody externally appear and report to be doing well and responding well to treatment, tragically suddenly take their life," Meszaros said in an email.

The military's deputy surgeon general, Col. Colin MacKay, in a Feb. 21, 2014 email obtained under access to information, told the chief of military personnel, Maj.-Gen. David Millar, that the analysis represents a "shallow dive" into the issue and more study would be needed.

The suicide crisis last winter gripped the attention of the nation and prompted National Defence to begin filling long-vacant positions within the mental health branch, as well as to make several public appeals for troops suffering with mental illness to come forward.

The suicide analysis, along with figures released last week by Statistics Canada and comments last spring by the military's top doctor, suggest the root causes of the tragedies may run deeper.

The 2013 Health and Well-Being of Canadian Armed Forces Veterans found regular force veterans upon leaving the military rated their health more poorly than the general population.

It found their sense of community belonging was lower and they were "less often satisfied with life than most Canadians."

The study said almost a quarter of those leaving the military reported both physical and mental disorders.

Testifying before the all-party House of Commons defence committee last spring, the military's surgeon-general, Brig.-Gen. Jean-Robert Bernier, said that depression, especially among male Forces members, is double that of the civilian population.

It represents a "major concern," he said.

Roughly 7.8 per cent of the military reported episodes of depression.

But that snapshot was taken prior to the Afghan war and Meszaros said Friday those numbers are being updated.

Medical professionals draw a direct link between instances of depression and suicide.

Understanding the extraordinarily high overall amount of depression is something the military is struggling [to do.]
http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/internal-dnd-analysis-paints-refined-picture-of-military-suicide-crisis-1.1901193#

Offline fake penguin

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Re: Suicides
« Reply #152 on: July 06, 2014, 23:34:19 »
More new statistics that raise questions as opposed to answer them.http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/internal-dnd-analysis-paints-refined-picture-of-military-suicide-crisis-1.1901193#

Ok the article says only 5 in 10 served in Afghanistan. What about the guys that served in Bosnia or anywhere else for that matter.They saw things too. So out of the 5 that did not go to Afghanistan, did they serve somewhere else and be affected by thier expierence?
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Re: Suicides
« Reply #153 on: July 06, 2014, 23:54:07 »
Thats why they said they've just started a shallow dive into finding the root causes. They very well could have been Bosnian vets, or Rwanda, or Somalia. There was probably a lot about the social profiles that may have been blacked out on ATI, as the service records would be Protected A.

Offline milnews.ca

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Re: Suicides
« Reply #154 on: November 10, 2015, 14:39:49 »
Bumped with the latest - a summary from the Surgeon General's latest report (highlights mine):
Quote
The Directorate of Force Health Protection (DFHP) regularly conducts analyses to examine suicide rates and the relationship between suicide and deployment. This report is an update covering the period from 1995 to 2014 .... This report describes crude suicide rates from 1995 to 2014, comparisons between the Canadian population and the CAF using standardized mortality ratios (SMRs), and suicide rates by deployment history using SMRs and direct standardization. It also examines variation in suicide rate by Command and, using data from the Medical Professional Technical Suicide Reviews (MPTSR), looks at the prevalence of other suicide risk factors in suicides which occurred in 2014 ....  Suicide rates in the CAF did not significantly increase over time, and after age standardization, they were not statistically higher than those in the Canadian population.  However, small numbers have limited the ability to detect statistical significance. In contrast to previous results, history of deployment may be emerging as a risk factor for suicide in the CAF. The increased risk in Regular Force males under Army Command compared to Regular Force males under non-Army Command is another new finding.  Deployment-related trauma (especially that related to the mission in Afghanistan) and resulting mental disorders are plausible mechanisms for these associations.  However, residual confounding may also be at play (e.g., by disproportionate risk of childhood trauma or other lifetime trauma in Army personnel or those who deploy).  Further research with other data sources will be needed to explore these hypotheses in depth.
Statement from the Defence Minister ....
Quote
“Throughout my career I have seen first-hand the demands of military service, and the sometimes enormous impact it can have on members and their families. This is particularly relevant given our long combat mission in Afghanistan. I also know that the CAF has done much to address the barriers to care, including stigma, and provides excellent health care and support to its men and women in uniform. However, I am concerned about the findings of the recent CAF report indicating an increased rate of suicide amongst CAF members. As Minister, taking care of our people is my personal priority. I am fully committed to live up to our obligation to Canadian Armed Forces members and their families.

“I have asked the Chief of the Defence Staff to examine this issue as a priority and to identify a way forward.”
.... and from the CDS:
Quote
“I have seen the Surgeon General’s report on suicide in the Canadian Armed Forces and I am concerned. The health and well-being of all Canadian Armed Forces members and their families is, as you know, my highest priority.  We already have an extensive suicide prevention program in place, supported by highly-capable and compassionate personnel, but clearly we must continually strive to improve.

“As directed by the Minister, I will take action to determine what needs to be done to get our members the help they need.

“To all members of the Canadian Armed Forces, if you think that you, or someone you know needs help, get it now. Go to your nearest Canadian Armed Forces health clinic or civilian emergency health care centre. All levels of the Canadian Armed Forces leadership, and I, support you. You are not alone.”
“The risk of insult is the price of clarity.” -- Roy H. Williams

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Offline Simian Turner

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Re: Suicides
« Reply #155 on: November 11, 2015, 10:42:15 »
I think you need to digest the conclusions. IMHO, there is adequate care available.  Getting people into care in a timely manner and finding them a constructive (rather than destructive) manner to serve while undergoing treatment is the crux of the problem.  Emphasis below is mine.

"It is far more probable that the changing trends are caused by two other larger forces at play:

1. here is strong evidence that the CAF mission in Afghanistan has had a powerful impact on the mental health of an important minority of personnel who deployed in support of it. Clear differences in the prevalence of mental disorders among personnel who deployed in support of that mission and other personnel have also been demonstrated.  The clear conceptual and empirical links between deployment-related trauma, mental disorders, and suicidality make these trends in patterns of Regular Force male suicidal behaviour in the CAF understandable.
2.  Second, the CAF’s retention practices for personnel with mental disorders have evolved.  Personnel who have recovered fully from mental disorders may continue to serve provided that they meet Universality of Service standards. For those who do not recover completely, time to release is now more prolonged than in the past.

We must reiterate here that suicide is a multifactorial event that is explained by more than deployment alone; consequently, disproportionate focus on selected factors runs counter to the CAF’s public health approach to suicide prevention. Focusing only on deployment, PTSD or any of the other risk factors discussed in this report is an ineffective approach to suicide prevention.

4.2  Conclusions

The following conclusions are reached with the understanding that statistical analysis may not identify a true difference due to the small total number of suicides, i.e. the power of the study is low: 

1. From 1995 to 2014 there has been no statistically significant change in the overall CAF Regular Force male suicide rates.
2. The rate of suicide when standardized for age and sex is not statistically significantly different from that of the general Canadian population.
3. Direct standardization suggests that a history of deployment is now emerging as a risk factor for Regular Force male suicide in the Canadian Armed Forces since 2010, confounding by other factors may be responsible for this finding.
4. High prevalence of mood disorders, spousal/intimate partner breakdown and/or of career-related proceedings may be indicators of heightened suicide risk in CAF Regular Force males.
5.  Analyses suggest that there is a significantly higher crude rate of Regular Force male suicide in the Army Command relative to other CAF Commands. This may be in part driven by the significant difference in the crude Regular Force male suicide rate for the Combat Arms Trades relative to the non-Combat Arms suicide rate.
6.  With more than 20 years of Regular Force data, advanced statistical approaches will need to be explored in future analyses to better and more accurately describe the suicide experience in the CAF."
« Last Edit: November 11, 2015, 10:45:52 by Simian Turner »
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Offline GAP

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Re: Suicides
« Reply #156 on: November 11, 2015, 10:58:05 »
Do people here really think that this latest generation of soldiers is any less able than previous generations....?

Do people here really think that there were not suicides after previous conflicts, that there was not PTSD or it's equivalent ?

The only thing I can see differently is that the organization is trying to help and the generous amount of publicity, wanted or not, that has gone along with it.
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I´m not so sure about the universe

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Re: Suicides
« Reply #157 on: November 12, 2015, 08:43:18 »
Meanwhile, while I agree with the general sentiment, I forsee this  :worms: from the following - highlights mine:
Quote
Canada’s new Veterans Affairs Minister is vowing to find a way to commemorate the 59 soldiers who served in Afghanistan and later took their own lives.

“They are part of our military family,” Kent Hehr said in an interview. “A veteran is a veteran is a veteran.”

The minister made the comments on Remembrance Day, when thousands gathered at the National War Memorial in Ottawa under grey skies to pay their respects to those Canadians who fought for their country, including the many who gave their lives in the process.

Mr. Hehr said he will consult former soldiers on how to proceed. “All of the proud soldiers who have served our country honourably ought to be recognized for their service and their sacrifice, including recognition of those who may have taken their own life,” he said. “I will engage with veterans in the months ahead and, together, we will explore ways to better recognize all those who have fallen.” ....
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Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: Suicides
« Reply #158 on: November 12, 2015, 12:18:58 »
I would like to see all CF members who succumbed to suicide commemorated. Singling out those with service in Afghanistan, which may or may not have been a contributing factor, seems short sighted.
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Offline MCG

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Re: Suicides
« Reply #159 on: November 12, 2015, 14:46:22 »
Getting people into care in a timely manner ... is the crux of the problem. 
One barrier against this, from some of my observations, has been LDA.  We give guys hundreds of dollars a month not to go to the field but to be in a unit designated as a field unit.  There is a financial disincentive to admitting the posibility of an injury because the free money might end.

Offline kratz

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Re: Suicides
« Reply #160 on: November 12, 2015, 18:17:07 »
One barrier against this, from some of my observations, has been LDA.  We give guys hundreds of dollars a month not to go to the field but to be in a unit designated as a field unit.  There is a financial disincentive to admitting the posibility of an injury because the free money might end.

Careful with those "good idea fairies".  LDA was adjusted, to be brought into line with SDA, as some thought it 'unfair' sailors traveling with their home, kitchen, shower ect....were getting more than the army. If someone now makes the argument that soldiers should lose LDA, those fairies these days, could easily leap and say no SDA for sailors either. The two elements have different challenges and issues of retention, we need to be cautious when applying a one size fits all to these ideas. 
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Offline MCG

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Re: Suicides
« Reply #161 on: November 12, 2015, 18:43:53 »
Careful with those "good idea fairies".  LDA was adjusted, to be brought into line with SDA, as some thought it 'unfair' sailors traveling with their home, kitchen, shower ect....were getting more than the army. If someone now makes the argument that soldiers should lose LDA, those fairies these days, could easily leap and say no SDA for sailors either. The two elements have different challenges and issues of retention, we need to be cautious when applying a one size fits all to these ideas. 
So, why should guys who manage to hold onto sea billets yet never leave shore get the extra pay while other guys get tossed between ships to make-up shortfalls ... and why should those guys doing extra time at sea not be making even more?  Super-sized casual allowances better compensate what they are intended to compensate, and super-sized casual allowances  don't act as free monthly money that is disincentive to self-identify injuries.


Offline kratz

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Re: Suicides
« Reply #162 on: November 12, 2015, 18:49:05 »
Casual allowances are not cumulative. Therefore there is no ability to rise to the next incentive level for SDA.
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Offline jollyjacktar

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Re: Suicides
« Reply #163 on: November 12, 2015, 19:34:12 »
So, why should guys who manage to hold onto sea billets yet never leave shore get the extra pay while other guys get tossed between ships to make-up shortfalls ... and why should those guys doing extra time at sea not be making even more?  Super-sized casual allowances better compensate what they are intended to compensate, and super-sized casual allowances  don't act as free monthly money that is disincentive to self-identify injuries.
Just because you self-identify, as I did, it doesn't stop you from serving on board, deploying on ops or sailing with everyone else and getting your fair SDA, as I did.  Are there a few slugs out there? Sure, a very few.  I know there were some in the Brigades too who had NATO knees and the like when it came to going to the field.  They're everywhere to one degree or another.  Lastly, the reason certain trades are going from pillar to post to keep ships at sea has SFA to do with what you're talking about.  It's because there are retention issues in some trades and they're bleeding white for that reason, not the sick, lame and lazy trying to scam SDA.
I'm just like the CAF, I seem to have retention issues.

Offline MCG

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Re: Suicides
« Reply #164 on: November 12, 2015, 22:34:20 »
Just because you self-identify, as I did, it doesn't stop you from serving on board, deploying on ops or sailing with everyone else ...
Yes, it is possible to self identify the  remain employable, go to sea/the field, and still earn an environmental allowance.  I am not disputing that.  I am neither raising concern over the malingerers.

The concern that I raise if over the service members who are legitimately injured but who hide and dodge treatment for fear that MELs or recovery will take them away from their environmental allowance.  I have seen this.  I have seen other cases where guys who need to be in JPSU for their recovery fight the process and grow bitter (getting worse) over the loss of an allowance that they really had not been earning over the preceding years.  We should not have a system that provides financial disincentive against seeking help.

The fact that we pay people an environmental allowance without care that they are actually earning that allowance or not ... well, that is just wasteful.  When that wasteful practice is also impeding care, then we should fix things.

Casual allowances are not cumulative. Therefore there is no ability to rise to the next incentive level for SDA.
So?  What is wrong with one level of allowance (something better than present casual rates) which fairly compensates all people equally for the same hardship?


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Re: Suicides
« Reply #165 on: November 12, 2015, 22:55:09 »
Now I see where to call Bu$$ crap.

Members are always responsible for their own financial affairs.

Why are Canadians on the hook for through VAC for those same  "hardship" members who won't seek medical help when it would actually help them when needed?

MCG (and ilk) are blaming the system for offering an incentive for work.

As a community, if someone says they want to hide an injury to ensure they get onto BMQ, what is our collective answer?

So...a few months later and members are now in units with SDA/LDA, we should change our response to hiding an injury?
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Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: Suicides
« Reply #166 on: November 12, 2015, 23:04:32 »
Now I see where to call Bu$$ crap.

Members are always responsible for their own financial affairs.

Why are Canadians on the hook for through VAC for those same  "hardship" members who won't seek medical help when it would actually help them when needed?

MCG (and ilk) are blaming the system for offering an incentive for work.

As a community, if someone says they want to hide an injury to ensure they get onto BMQ, what is our collective answer?

So...a few months later and members are now in units with SDA/LDA, we should change our response to hiding an injury?

Reservists get nothing, and some still do not self-identify. The money is one thing, but there are other barriers too IMHO.

Also, AFAIK, 'they' are not 'counting' reservist suicides either, although I am open to being corrected on that point.
"The most important qualification of a soldier is fortitude under fatigue and privation. Courage is only second; hardship, poverty and want are the best school for a soldier." Napoleon

Offline MCG

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Re: Suicides
« Reply #167 on: November 12, 2015, 23:24:34 »
MCG (and ilk) are blaming the system for offering an incentive for work.
It is no incentive for work.  It is incentive to hold onto a spot in the establishment.  It is a reward for a posting message.  An incentive to work would pay for when you do the work. 

I see you are about being entitled to your entitlements.  I think when money is paid for doing something, it should go to those people who do that something.  If it makes you feel better, one could still design a super-casual allowance that that gives credit for past earning.  Then you can still make more than the next guy when you go to sea.

Is loss of environmental allowances the only barrier to seeking help?  No.
That does not mean we should not fix that barrier.

Offline jollyjacktar

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Re: Suicides
« Reply #168 on: November 13, 2015, 05:50:41 »
I think there is still some of the stigma attached with having a mental illness in some quarters, or at the very least a perception by some that there is and/or should be a stigma attached.  That is the real barrier such as it remains that really needs to be fully torn down.
I'm just like the CAF, I seem to have retention issues.

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Re: Suicides
« Reply #169 on: November 13, 2015, 06:47:57 »
I think there is still some of the stigma attached with having a mental illness in some quarters, or at the very least a perception by some that there is and/or should be a stigma attached.  That is the real barrier such as it remains that really needs to be fully torn down.
My guess is that if this is still true in civvy street (and it is), it's probably getting better in the CF because of recent education efforts, but can't be close to zero yet, given how "get 'er done" military folks as a group tend to be.
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Re: Suicides
« Reply #170 on: November 13, 2015, 06:55:27 »
My guess is that if this is still true in civvy street (and it is), it's probably getting better in the CF because of recent education efforts, but can't be close to zero yet, given how "get 'er done" military folks as a group tend to be.

I believe things are indeed much better today than they were even a few years ago for both the CF and the population at large when it comes to dealing with mental illness.  I don't know if that wall will ever be fully torn down, but I hope so.

There was an intersting story I heard of this week on how Canadian scientists have been able to successfully breach the blood/brain barrier.  They believe this will be "the breakthrough" which will enable much better treatment for things like depression etc.  Here's hoping between education and things like this that people who are suffering can find relief.
I'm just like the CAF, I seem to have retention issues.

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Re: Suicides
« Reply #171 on: November 13, 2015, 09:15:12 »
Reservists get nothing, and some still do not self-identify. The money is one thing, but there are other barriers too IMHO.

Also, AFAIK, 'they' are not 'counting' reservist suicides either, although I am open to being corrected on that point.

Reserve suicides, although difficult, have been accounted for through the years.

http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-reports-pubs-health/report-on-suicide-mortality-caf-2015.page

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Re: Suicides
« Reply #172 on: November 15, 2015, 12:05:53 »
For what it is worth to the discussion,

"It has reported that in 2015, across Canada, there have been 30 first responder suicides and eight Canadian Forces suicides to date. In 2014, from April 29 to December 31, there were 27 first responder deaths by suicide, and 19 Canadian Forces suicides in 2014."
http://www.tema.ca/#!home/c1gd9"

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Re: Suicides
« Reply #173 on: November 15, 2015, 20:41:41 »
Too, too many, regardless of the members origin of service.  RIP.
I'm just like the CAF, I seem to have retention issues.

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Re: Suicides
« Reply #174 on: January 25, 2016, 17:08:43 »
Via La Presse (original in French) - Google translation below:
Quote
Suicide accounts for a third of deaths in the Canadian Armed Forces for five years, according to data obtained by La Presse. A proportion much higher than the Canadian standard, but that the Defence invites interpreted with caution.

This proportion third of military deaths caused by suicide greatly exceeds the 1.6% that seen in the rest of the Canadian population. It is also three times higher than the percentage of 10% among Canadian men aged 20 to 59 years in 2011, according to Statistics Canada. This subgroup is more representative of the military population, where men make up nearly 85% of the Regular Force.

"Not normal"

"It is a problem. I do not think it's normal that suicides are the third of deaths. They talk, they say it does not make sense, but we do not see action. At least, I do not see them and I do not hear, "says Marie-Josée Huard, President of the Association of Canadian military spouses. His spouse, who served in Bosnia and Afghanistan, suffers itself from post-traumatic stress and has considered suicide, but was "lucky to get help," she said. According to her, support outside the military bases should be part of the solution.

The cream of the cream

In the Canadian Armed Forces (CAF), we urged caution when comparing these statistics with those of the general population. The military are generally younger and healthier, says Dr. Elizabeth Rolland-Harris, an epidemiologist with the CAF. They have, for example, less likely to succumb to disease. "It's still the best of the best," she said. In 2011, the death rate among Canadian men aged 20 to 59 years was 226 deaths per 100,000 people, while, year after year, it ranges between 45 and 70 (per 100,000) in forces ...
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Tony Prudori
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