Author Topic: Theater & Continental Balistic Missile Defence . . . and Canada  (Read 109046 times)

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Offline MarkOttawa

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Re: Theater & Continental Balistic Missile Defence . . . and Canada
« Reply #475 on: August 01, 2017, 16:25:27 »
CBC piece features prominent peaceniks Peggy Mason and Doug Roche towards end, balance one assumes:

Quote
Analysis
North Korea nuclear threat renews debate on Canada's participation in U.S. missile defence

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/north-korea-u-s-canada-missile-defence-1.4229904

Earlier:

Quote
“Time to say ‘yes’ to a missile shield, Canada”
https://cgai3ds.wordpress.com/2016/04/21/mark-collins-time-to-say-yes-to-a-missile-shield-canada/

Mark
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Offline Thucydides

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Re: Theater & Continental Balistic Missile Defence . . . and Canada
« Reply #476 on: August 01, 2017, 19:04:08 »
Not wanting to participate in missile defense was always a stupid policy, we have people and territory of our own to defend, not become an engagement zone for American ABM interceptors, especially as the threat continues to grow and proliferate.

Given the rapidly advancing technology, Canada might consider something along the line of "David's Sling", which is effective against cruise missiles, tactical and theatre ballistic missiles, and arming some ships with the SM-3 Standard missile, which allows you to shift your defensive shield to a limited extent and pre position things where you foresee trouble coming. American GBI (Ground Based Interceptors, the large ABMs based in Alaska) or Israeli Arrow-3 long range interceptors also exist, and could be placed in fixed sites in Canada where warranted.

It is crazy to continue to think in terms of the 1960's, either in policy or technology, when discussing missile defense.
Dagny, this is not a battle over material goods. It's a moral crisis, the greatest the world has ever faced and the last. Our age is the climax of centuries of evil. We must put an end to it, once and for all, or perish - we, the men of the mind. It was our own guilt. We produced the wealth of the world - but we let our enemies write its moral code.

Offline MarkOttawa

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Re: Theater & Continental Balistic Missile Defence . . . and Canada
« Reply #477 on: August 01, 2017, 19:27:08 »
Thucydides: As for RCN CSCs and missile defence:

Quote
Technology and Politics – Canadian Ballistic Missile Defence
...
Fast forward to 2015 and the RCN is in the design stages of the program that will see the construction of new Air Defence/Command and Control Destroyers. Work on those new ships will raise the questions of Ballistic Missile Defence once again. Should the ships be made capable of participating in the Anti-Ballistic Missile battle?

The real question should be “Can we responsibly prevent the ships from being capable in an ABM role?”..
https://defencemuse.wordpress.com/2015/03/10/technology-and-politics-canadian-ballistic-missile-defence/

A friend with relevant knowledge noted some time ago that the US side of NORAD would very much welcome the CSCs' having a missile defence capability--against cruise missiles also.

Mark
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Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: Theater & Continental Balistic Missile Defence . . . and Canada
« Reply #478 on: August 01, 2017, 20:04:09 »
The most effective, and most difficult, form of ballistic missile defense is (of course) effective international diplomacy.

Sadly, we seem to have lost that competency somewhere between to Berlin Wall coming down and Guantanamo Bay....
"The most important qualification of a soldier is fortitude under fatigue and privation. Courage is only second; hardship, poverty and want are the best school for a soldier." Napoleon

Offline George Wallace

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Re: Theater & Continental Balistic Missile Defence . . . and Canada
« Reply #479 on: August 01, 2017, 21:28:31 »
The most effective, and most difficult, form of ballistic missile defense is (of course) effective international diplomacy.

Sadly, we seem to have lost that competency somewhere between to Berlin Wall coming down and Guantanamo Bay....

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Offline tomahawk6

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Re: Theater & Continental Balistic Missile Defence . . . and Canada
« Reply #480 on: August 01, 2017, 21:56:30 »
[:D   :goodpost:

Kim Jong Un is awaiting your diplomacy. President Clinton tried buying off the North Koreans by giving them billions to discard their nuclear program. Now 23 years later they have a very limited nuclear capability and remain a threat to their neighbors. Give them more money to advance their nuclear/ICBM program or risk war. No easy way forward.

Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: Theater & Continental Balistic Missile Defence . . . and Canada
« Reply #481 on: August 01, 2017, 22:26:23 »
Kim Jong Un is awaiting your diplomacy. President Clinton tried buying off the North Koreans by giving them billions to discard their nuclear program. Now 23 years later they have a very limited nuclear capability and remain a threat to their neighbors. Give them more money to advance their nuclear/ICBM program or risk war. No easy way forward.

For a start...

I'd ask for North Korean help to defeat ISIS.. or something like that.

We're not trying hard enough and leaning on pre-1914 diplomatic methofogies AFAIC.

Where is our 21st century Metternich?
"The most important qualification of a soldier is fortitude under fatigue and privation. Courage is only second; hardship, poverty and want are the best school for a soldier." Napoleon

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Re: Theater & Continental Balistic Missile Defence . . . and Canada
« Reply #482 on: August 01, 2017, 22:54:01 »
Metternich?

He was dealing with a bunch of people worn out by 23 years of Napoleon, the RN and the Bank of England.

Stephenson?

Hitler, Mussolini, Tojo and the Atomic Bomb

Westphalia?

100 years of Huguenot wars


Where's the incentive?

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Re: Theater & Continental Balistic Missile Defence . . . and Canada
« Reply #483 on: August 02, 2017, 09:37:30 »
Not wanting to participate in missile defense was always a stupid policy ...
So says a former Defence & Foreign Affairs Minister, in hindsight - this from Russian-funded media ...
Quote
A former Canadian defense minister says he "regrets" that Ottawa did not advance talks to join the US missile defense program years ago, citing the recent North Korean military and missile tests.

Peter MacKay, who served as Canadian defense minister from 2007 to 2013, says he wishes he had signed onto the program when he had the chance, emphasizing the increasing threats posed by North Korea.

"We share a great deal of intelligence with the United States and if they're alarmed, we should be alarmed," MacKay told CBC News, adding that not being part of the program is a "big problem."

(...)

MacKay went on to state that he doubts many people "grasp the gravity" of the threats posed by Pyongyang, or the recent technological advances that have been made by North Korea.

"Given the tone, the tenor of this threat, I really think it's time for Canada to move past this...allergic reaction that, I think for years, has existed to Canada entering into ballistic missile defense program with the United States," he said.

Conservatives said they were in favor of joining the missile defense program when they entered office in 2006. However, they made no attempt to pursue the program - which was the subject of serious debate under the government of former Liberal Prime Minister Paul Martin - over the course of nearly a decade.

"There's no denying we did not move in that direction, although there were discussions, and I personally, as [former] defense minister, have regrets we weren't able to advance those discussions," MacKay, a Conservative, said ...
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Offline Cdn Blackshirt

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Re: Theater & Continental Balistic Missile Defence . . . and Canada
« Reply #484 on: August 02, 2017, 10:08:54 »
It always disappoints me to see politicians admit that they are following the sheep, instead of leading them....   :facepalm:
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Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: Theater & Continental Balistic Missile Defence . . . and Canada
« Reply #485 on: August 02, 2017, 10:16:21 »
I think that PM Harper made the political calculation that joining the US Missile Defense would cause him more losses of voters than the then estimated risk that NK would develop intercontinental missiles, regardless of how much sense it made from a tactical point of view (single continental integrated system) or strategic point of view (integration within NORAD, so Canada would be at the decision table), regardless of low cost.

That time has passed and now, if Canada wants in (and personally I say that not only we should, but we must - I suggest people look at a globe: Any NK missile that could reach the US west coast, say down to San Francisco, can reach into Canada all the way to Manitoba) we will have to pay our way in. Acquiring CSC's fitted with ballistic missile detection radars and SM-3's would go along way toward raising our participation again and moving the whole thing back to NORAD.

I know alleged experts say Canada is not likely to be a NK target. I believe this view to be not only incorrect, but also a very narrow North American centric view of things. In North America (and possibly Europe, I don't know), this whole Korean matter is currently seen as something between the two Korea's and the US as the South's defender. But in NK, they see the whole thing as the "cold" continuation of the Korean War of the 50's. To them, they are still at war -but held in place by the armistice - with their opponent of the day, which is the world as represented by the UN, and they probably consider all of the major participants of that time as legitimate combatants, and therefore targets. So if you are going to make a "demonstration" launch in such circumstances to prove how big your dick is, why would you lob it at the strongest opponent you try to impress when you can lob it at a much smaller power, incapable of retaliating in kind, that you perceive as a participant and a "lackey" of the big power you wish to dissuade. Much easier and less risky to launch at Victoria than Seattle might be the logic. We have to stop seeing things through our point of view and start considering theirs.     

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Re: Theater & Continental Balistic Missile Defence . . . and Canada
« Reply #486 on: August 02, 2017, 10:55:55 »
Canada can't count on a NK ICBM hitting what it is aimed at. A drop short could possibly land somewhere in Canada. Additionally there is the radioactive fallout that may drift into Canada and depending on the size of the warhead, the effects of a regional nuclear winter. BC has forest fires now. Could we handle a massive forest fire started in the state of Washington spreading Northward? The Japanese in the Second World War wanted to start forest fires with their balloon bombs.

Is Canada prepared to react to assist the Canadian populous in the event of a nuclear attack? Assist possible US survivors who may cross the border?
« Last Edit: August 02, 2017, 11:18:08 by Rifleman62 »
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Offline Old Sweat

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Re: Theater & Continental Balistic Missile Defence . . . and Canada
« Reply #487 on: August 02, 2017, 11:11:39 »
Deja Vu all over again for this geriatric soldier. In the early Cold War era - mid-50s and into the 60s the Canadian Army had a fairly sophisticated national survival organization to conduct re-entry operations in possible target areas across the country. You can still see the various bunkers in places like Shilo where the provincial governments would deploy skeleton staffs (and the feds into the Diefenbunker in Carp) to provide continuity of government.

The militia was restructured from a number of divisions and brigades into national survival columns and exchanged its weapons for "snakes and ladders." This pretty well destroyed the recruiting base for the reserves, and contributed to its downsizing after integration. And, yes, the regular force did practice re-entry operations as well.

I don't think we are going back to those days, but there should be a crap load of studies, plans, etc in LAC, if anybody is interested.

Add. Officer promotion exams included a three hour written one on national survival for both lieutenant to captain and captain to major.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2017, 11:16:18 by Old Sweat »

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Re: Theater & Continental Balistic Missile Defence . . . and Canada
« Reply #488 on: August 02, 2017, 11:32:25 »
You remember the Ponderosa in Shilo: the village of several buildings simulating a hit, with various "collapses" V, pancake etc. built specifically for NS Trg. Trg was knots/lashings, removal of casualties from bldgs/trees. Always fun being the casualty tied in a stretcher being removed from the second story, especially when it frequently flipped upside down.

In Wpg the plan was to RV in Portage La Prairie (50 miles West) and re-enter Wpg to save the citizens. I have a copy of the plan somewhere. For me I had to take a streetcar if it was on schedule, to Minto Armoury, start a frozen 3/4 ton, load stores, drive to the RV. That took how many hours? Flight time of an ICBM from Russia? You can see the government/Army plan was not realistic.
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Re: Theater & Continental Balistic Missile Defence . . . and Canada
« Reply #489 on: August 02, 2017, 12:08:43 »
Indeed. The initial planning was done in the manned bomber era with Soviet aircraft coming over the pole and/or from Siberia. Where do you think the airborne response to lodgements in the north came from? Early on, it was felt the Soviets might seize refuelling airfields in the north prior to launching nuclear strikes.

The plans, while unrealistic by the mid-sixties, were better than northing, especially if there was strategic warning that would have convinced the federal and provincial governments to act before the strikes were launched.

Few of us had very many delusions about our chances of survival. During the Cuban Missile Crisis I was on a course at the RCSA in Shilo, and still remember my frustration and disappointment at the prospect of dying away from my troops in 1 RCHA in Gagetown.

Offline MilEME09

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Re: Theater & Continental Balistic Missile Defence . . . and Canada
« Reply #490 on: August 10, 2017, 01:01:49 »
You remember the Ponderosa in Shilo: the village of several buildings simulating a hit, with various "collapses" V, pancake etc. built specifically for NS Trg. Trg was knots/lashings, removal of casualties from bldgs/trees. Always fun being the casualty tied in a stretcher being removed from the second story, especially when it frequently flipped upside down.

In Wpg the plan was to RV in Portage La Prairie (50 miles West) and re-enter Wpg to save the citizens. I have a copy of the plan somewhere. For me I had to take a streetcar if it was on schedule, to Minto Armoury, start a frozen 3/4 ton, load stores, drive to the RV. That took how many hours? Flight time of an ICBM from Russia? You can see the government/Army plan was not realistic.

Basically you better hope that first strike comes while your on EX far away from the city. Even if you were a lucky SOB and were outside a target, I doubt you would have CBRN gear, or be able to get access to any quickly enough to safely enter a contaminated zone to have any one left to save.
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Re: Theater & Continental Balistic Missile Defence . . . and Canada
« Reply #491 on: August 10, 2017, 09:07:35 »
Basically you better hope that first strike comes while your on EX far away from the city. Even if you were a lucky SOB and were outside a target, I doubt you would have CBRN gear, or be able to get access to any quickly enough to safely enter a contaminated zone to have any one left to save.

There was no intention to enter "contaminated" zones, and there would have been more than enough rescue work in the areas damaged by blast and heat/flash. The actual highly-radioative area was limited, if the burst was detonated far enough above the ground to maximize damage from the other two effects I mentioned in the preceding sentence. Re-entry was also planned to be from upwind of the site to minimize exposure to fallout from particles sucked up into the cloud.

Offline Cdn Blackshirt

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Re: Theater & Continental Balistic Missile Defence . . . and Canada
« Reply #492 on: August 12, 2017, 11:42:52 »
The peaceniks are a truly silly group.

What they don't comprehend is that:
1.  The NK leadership are batshit crazy, do not see the world as we do and therefore negotiating with them based on our western values and ideals is hopeless.
2.  They give zero thought to the 10's of millions imprisoned under the NK Leadership, yet complain about the civil rights atrocities which occur in the USA under Trump. As they are seen to be living under a 'socialist banner, imprisonment, torture and even executions are all totally fine.
3. There is no recognition that although an NK Mike may be launched at Seattle or Los Angeles that they may miscalculated and it ends up hectoring towards Victoria or Vancouver. 

Bottom line is that with serious issues like this, you need more serious people than the Corwyn-ite crew influencing decisions that impact the security of our citizens.

 :salute:
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Offline MarkOttawa

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Re: Theater & Continental Balistic Missile Defence . . . and Canada
« Reply #493 on: August 12, 2017, 13:16:11 »
And still the missiled defence syndrome:

Quote
Freeland pledges support for U.S. as tensions escalate with North Korea
...
Asked whether Canada should rethink its policy on the anti-ballistic missile program, Ms. Freeland did not directly answer the question. Rather, she said it is important to focus on the source of the problem at hand: North Korea...
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/freeland-pledges-support-for-us-as-tensions-escalate-with-north-korea/article35964914/

And its missiles, eh?

Mark
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Offline Thucydides

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Re: Theater & Continental Balistic Missile Defence . . . and Canada
« Reply #494 on: August 12, 2017, 17:35:36 »
The peaceniks are a truly silly group.

What they don't comprehend is that:
1.  The NK leadership are batshit crazy, do not see the world as we do and therefore negotiating with them based on our western values and ideals is hopeless.
2.  They give zero thought to the 10's of millions imprisoned under the NK Leadership, yet complain about the civil rights atrocities which occur in the USA under Trump. As they are seen to be living under a 'socialist banner, imprisonment, torture and even executions are all totally fine.
3. There is no recognition that although an NK Mike may be launched at Seattle or Los Angeles that they may miscalculated and it ends up hectoring towards Victoria or Vancouver. 

Bottom line is that with serious issues like this, you need more serious people than the Corwyn-ite crew influencing decisions that impact the security of our citizens.

 :salute:

First you need to get the people who vote for the Corwyn-lite politicians, or support Corwyn lite talking heads to understand the true nature and gravity of the situation, otherwise the Corwyn-lites get on and dominate the stage, poisoning the environment for clear understanding and discussion, much less decision making.
Dagny, this is not a battle over material goods. It's a moral crisis, the greatest the world has ever faced and the last. Our age is the climax of centuries of evil. We must put an end to it, once and for all, or perish - we, the men of the mind. It was our own guilt. We produced the wealth of the world - but we let our enemies write its moral code.

Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: Theater & Continental Balistic Missile Defence . . . and Canada
« Reply #495 on: August 12, 2017, 21:08:09 »
“Dictators ride to and fro upon tigers which they dare not dismount. And the tigers are getting hungry.” ~

Winston Churchill

My guess is that the NK leadership is working hard to stay mounted...
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Re: Theater & Continental Balistic Missile Defence . . . and Canada
« Reply #496 on: September 14, 2017, 15:58:05 »
A bit of the latest from NORAD's deputy boss ...
Quote
Current U.S. policy directs the American military not to defend Canada if it is targeted in a ballistic missile attack, says the top Canadian officer at the North American Aerospace Defence Command.

"We're being told in Colorado Springs that the extant U.S. policy is not to defend Canada," said Lt.-Gen. Pierre St-Amand, deputy commander of Colorado-based Norad.

"That is the policy that's stated to us. So that's the fact that I can bring to the table."

St-Amand delivered that revelation Thursday during an appearance before the House of Commons defence committee, which is studying the extent to which Canada is ready for an attack by North Korea.

The study comes after several provocative nuclear and ballistic missile tests by North Korea, which have stoked fears Canada could end up in the middle of a confrontation between the U.S. and the so-called hermit kingdom.

Those tests have also resurrected questions over whether Canada should join the U.S. ballistic missile defence shield, which it famously opted out of in 2005 following a divisive national debate.

St-Amand said Canadian and U.S. military personnel at Norad headquarters in Colorado Springs, Colo., work side-by-side detecting potential airborne threats to North America.

But Canada would have no role in deciding what to do if North Korea or any other country fired a missile at North America, he said ...
More @ link
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Offline QV

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Re: Theater & Continental Balistic Missile Defence . . . and Canada
« Reply #497 on: September 14, 2017, 20:05:48 »
"Revelation"...LOL

Why would another country commit its defence ordnance to protect a neighbouring country that won't participate in that defence program? Surprise surprise. 

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Re: Theater & Continental Balistic Missile Defence . . . and Canada
« Reply #498 on: September 14, 2017, 21:26:45 »
IMHO, Canada's current policy clearly indicates that LPC policy is more important than the safety of Canada's citizens.

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