Author Topic: Making Canada Relevant Again- The Economic Super-Thread  (Read 508478 times)

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Offline Thucydides

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Making Canada Relevant Again
« Reply #25 on: March 14, 2005, 22:18:32 »
All we hold dear, all we thought worth standing on guard for, all we were ultimately willing to put our lives on the line for slipping away?

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We're doomed
 

Monday, 14 March 2005
Mark Steyn
   

It's in the nature of things that a conservative columnist in Trudeaupia spends much of his time lowering his readers into the abyss of despair. And, to be honest, I get a little disheartened by the amount of correspondence I get beginning, "Great piece on the Martin Liberals! Right on the money!! Do you have any information on emigrating to the U.S.? Or maybe one of those eastern European countries with the 16 per cent flat tax?â ?

Which I suppose gets to the heart of the matter: is Canada doomed?

A lot of places are. Russia, for example. It's midway through its transition from "superpowerâ ? to ghost town. Russian men already have a lower life expectancy than Bangladeshis; not because Bangladesh is brimming with actuarial advantages, but because being a Russian male is to belong to an endangered species. By 2025, the country's population will have fallen by a third. By mid-century, vast, empty Russia will have a smaller population than tiny Yemen. The decline in male longevity is unprecedented for a (relatively) advanced nation not at war. Russia has a serious AIDS problem, though not as bad as Africa's, and it's a measure of the nation's decline that for once nobody seriously thinks the HIV pandemic can be solved with free condom distribution. AIDS, along with extraordinary rates of drug-fuelled hepatitis C, heart disease and TB, is just one more symptom of what happens when an entire people lacks the will to rouse itself from self-destruction.

Immediately after his retirement, you may recall, Pierre Trudeau took his sons to Siberia, because that was "where the future is being built.â ? Any future being built in the outlying parts of Russia belongs to Muslims and Chinese in need of lebensraum, and drug cartels and terrorist networks eager to take advantage of remote areas in a state lacking sufficient reliable manpower to police its borders. Despite M. Trudeau's enthusiasm, Canada is not Russia. But the fate of the post-Communist motherland is an instructive example of what a dead end radical secular statism is: after seven decades of the government making every big decision for them, Russia's menfolk seem incapable of functioning as adults.

Canada, unfortunately, has embarked on a much suppler, more slippery form of radical secularism: you don't ban religion, you just subject it to the ever-sterner strictures of "toleranceâ ?; you don't forbid private enterprise, you just create a business climate where almost all successful ventures wind up dependent on state patronage and run by good friends of the ruling party; you don't turn the people into wards of the state overnight, you just use an incremental accumulation of ostensibly benign measures, from government health care to government day care, to redefine the relationship between the "citizenâ ? and his rulers. The soft totalitarianism of the Trudeaupian state is a much harder target to take aim at than the obvious wasteland of Andropov-era Soviet Communism.

The lesson of Russia's death spiral is a simple one: as Mrs. Thatcher likes to say, "The facts of life are conservative.â ? The nation that tried to buck them the most thoroughly is falling the fastest. We won't learn that lesson because, M. Trudeau's effusions notwithstanding, we don't see ourselves as sharing any of Russia's characteristics.

So what about Europe? Canadians are, at least psychologically, an honorary member of the EU: we take the "progressiveâ ? Euro-view on Kyoto, cradle-to-grave welfare, abortion, a bloated "public sectorâ ? workforce, confiscatory taxation, joke prison sentences, and just about everything else. But, as I've noted here before, the design flaw in the Euro-Canadian secular welfare state is that it needs a traditional religious-society birthrate to sustain it. In the EU, the fertility rate is now 1.46 children per childbearing woman--well below "replacement rate,â ? and well below what an aging population entitled to lavish state benefits needs. Thus, to avoid collapse, European nations will need to take in immigrants at a rate no stable society has ever attempted. The CIA is predicting the EU will collapse by 2020. I think that's rather a cautious estimate, myself. It seems more likely that within the next couple of European election cycles, the internal contradictions of the EU will manifest themselves in the usual way, and that by 2010 we'll be watching burning buildings, street riots and assassinations on The National every night. I think it will be much harder for the Canadian Liberal party's parochial multiculturalists to argue that the collapse of Holland or the disintegration of Germany has no lessons for us.

And even if they did, south of the border the lessons will be learned. For a good three decades, the Democratic party has been running on fumes, except in the Clinton era, when it was running on semen. But, either way, the tank's on empty and, with the exception of Senator Rodham, most of the folks in the car--Ted Kennedy, Robert C. Byrd--look like a shuffleboard outing rather than the cutting edge of political dynamism. For the foreseeable future, America will get more conservative, there will be fewer blue states, and outside the coastal cities and a few college towns, an intellectually barren Democratic party faces remorseless decline--unless, as Mrs. Clinton is currently doing (or at least pretending to do), it moves right. So Trudeaupia will be even less like its neighbour and principal trading partner, but a lot more like the Europe whose Conflagration of the Day Lloyd Robertson will be benignly presiding over every evening.

The question, then, is: at what point does the penny drop? Last year, the British historian Niall Ferguson argued that the Anglo-American "special relationshipâ ? was over. "The typical British family,â ? he wrote, "looks much more like the typical German family than the typical American family. We eat Italian food. We watch Spanish soccer. We drive German cars. We work Belgian hours. And we buy second homes in France. Above all, we bow before central government as only true Europeans can.â ?

But so what? Canadians eat American food, watch American sports, drive American cars, work American hours (more or less), and buy second homes in Florida. But we still bow down before central government as only true Europeans can. A shared taste in Dunkin' Donuts or Celine Dion CDs is no proof of geopolitical compatibility. In the things that matter, Canadians are more foreign to Americans than we've ever been.

Indeed, the Liberal party has deployed all the Boston Crème Timbits as a useful cover, a kind of pop-culture neutron bomb: walk down a Canadian Main Street and the landscape of our lives looks very American--Wal-Mart, Burger King, Spider-Man at the multiplex. But scratch the surface and everything is as different than America as it's ever been. The Grits made the same calculation Ibn Saud did when he met with Colonel Eddy, the first U.S. emissary to Saudi Arabia: the Americans would prioritize the economic relationship, and "leave our faith aloneâ ?--in Ibn Saud's case, Wahhabism; in ours,Trudeaupian statism.

Yet, just as the cost-benefit analysis has changed vis-à-vis the Saudis, so it will with Canada. The U.S. has quietly decided it cannot save Europe from itself. But I doubt they'll demonstrate the same equanimity about their northern neighbour.

The illusion of permanence is the curse of post-Christian civilization. Religious societies have a much greater sense of both past and future, as we did a century ago, when we spoke of death as joining "the great majorityâ ? in "the unseen world.â ? But if secularism's starting point is that this is all there is, it's no surprise that, consciously or not, they invest the here and now with far greater powers of endurance than it's ever had. The idea that progressive Euro welfarism is the permanent resting place of human development was always foolish; we now know that it's suicidally so.

The collapse of half the western world is a tragedy--in the true, Greek sense--but every cloud has a silver lining, and, given that Europe's rendezvous with destiny is a few years ahead of ours, their fate gives us the opportunity to avoid winding up sharing it: their self-immolation may yet be our salvation. The wobbling blancmange that is Paul Martin may not be up to the task, but the resistance of a big chunk of Liberal voters to gay marriage suggests the party's grassroots may start to sober up long before the leadership. The facts of life remain conservative, and the liberal fantasy erected in their place is, as we're about to see in Spain and Belgium and Sweden, a death cult.

On the other hand, if the news from Europe over the next decade doesn't serve as a wake-up call for Canada, we deserve to sleepwalk to the same grim end.
Dagny, this is not a battle over material goods. It's a moral crisis, the greatest the world has ever faced and the last. Our age is the climax of centuries of evil. We must put an end to it, once and for all, or perish - we, the men of the mind. It was our own guilt. We produced the wealth of the world - but we let our enemies write its moral code.

Offline PPCLI Guy

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Re: Is Canada Doomed?
« Reply #26 on: March 14, 2005, 22:39:37 »
Hmmm.   It is relatively easy to find a blogger whose view of the world will jive with yours.   Just because it is posted on the internet, doesn't make it so - and we have seen plenty of examples of that in Army.ca   ;)

I prefer, in my naively optimistic way, to disagree with Mr Steyn.   Canada is not doomed - but the Canada that Mr Steyn wishes we lived in is.

Here is the litmus test - would I want to live anywhere else?

(And before anyone asks, yes, I have seen a bit of the world, am an immigrant from Europe, have another passport if I chose to use it, and have marketable skills - indeed I turned down a chance to emmigrate in the last 10 years).

The answer is no.  

Canada - that great experiment - is just where I want to be. Will I agree with everything that happens in this, my chosen land?   No.  

Will I continue to serve her greater interests? Yes.

My two cents.

Dave
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Offline CBH99

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Re: Is Canada Doomed?
« Reply #27 on: March 14, 2005, 23:01:54 »
Right on Dave.  I too was born overseas, and immigrated from the UK at the age of 2.  I've been back to Europe several times, and I would consider myself to be flexible enough, and possess enough standardized skills to be marketable to foreign countries.

However, I would never choose to live outside of Canada.  And if I absolutely had to, I'd probably move back to Europe - I would NEVER make a home south of the border.  No disrespect to Americans, but I certainly wouldn't want to make America my home.

True, there are some things in this country that need work.  There are some things in this country that need to change.  There are some things in this country that I disagree with.  But, would I chose to live anywhere else in the world?  No.  Would I feel as safe in a foreign country, as I do here in Canada?  Probably not.
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Offline MoOx

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Re: Is Canada Doomed?
« Reply #28 on: March 14, 2005, 23:48:35 »
that's mark steyn for ya. he's got a real talent for tarting up his lurid wet dreams and repackaging them as grim prophesies of doom.
so here's my grim prophesy: canada, the eu, the us and the rest of western civilisation will still be open for business in 2010, 2020, 2030 and so on, with each year of continued prosperity bringing an increasingly hysteric mark steyn ever closer to his inevitable aneurysm.
and those countries that still haven't become "radically secular" will still be toilets (like saudi arabia, iran, the nation-cult known as north korea, etc).

my 2 cents (which by then should be worth a whole dollar -- or 90 euros or 80 yen, take your pick)

« Last Edit: March 15, 2005, 04:01:26 by squealiox »

Offline Glorified Ape

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Re: Is Canada Doomed?
« Reply #29 on: March 15, 2005, 01:23:42 »
that's mark steyn for ya. he's got a real talent for tarting up his lurid wet dreams and repackaging them as grim prophesies of doom.
so here's my grim prophesy: canada, the eu, the us and the rest of western civilisation will still be open for business in 2010, 2020, 2030 and so on, with each year of continued prosperity bringing an increasingly hysteric mark steyn even closer to his inevitable aneurysm.
and those countries that still haven't become "radically secular" will still be toilets (like saudi arabia, iran, the nation-cult known as north korea, etc).

my 2 cents (which by then should be worth a whole dollar -- or 90 euros or 80 yen, take your pick)



lol I agree, and I love your phrasing. Although I wish he really would give information on emigrating to those people writing him for it.

What he says about the Democrats in the US does seem to be largely true but I'd attribute that to a healthy serving of circumstance with a side of incompetence. Both sides fall flat on their face and the other side always heralds it as the end of an ideology but that seems little more than wishful thinking.
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Offline van Gemeren

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Re: Is Canada Doomed?
« Reply #30 on: March 15, 2005, 03:55:39 »
I could list a couple of dozen of countries that are a lot worse of than Canada.
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Re: Is Canada Doomed?
« Reply #31 on: March 15, 2005, 12:30:09 »
I could list a couple of dozen of countries that are a lot worse of than Canada.

Obviously there are worse places to live,but there are reasons for that.it is quite arrogant to think Canada is immune to misfourtune that has befallen other countries.Canada is nothing more than a straw house beside a brush fire.One small spark and it's game over.

Offline Thucydides

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Re: Is Canada Doomed?
« Reply #32 on: March 17, 2005, 01:14:38 »
Dagny, this is not a battle over material goods. It's a moral crisis, the greatest the world has ever faced and the last. Our age is the climax of centuries of evil. We must put an end to it, once and for all, or perish - we, the men of the mind. It was our own guilt. We produced the wealth of the world - but we let our enemies write its moral code.

Offline van Gemeren

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Re: Is Canada Doomed?
« Reply #33 on: March 17, 2005, 01:41:33 »
Quote
Obviously there are worse places to live,but there are reasons for that.it is quite arrogant to think Canada is immune to misfourtune that has befallen other countries.Canada is nothing more than a straw house beside a brush fire.One small spark and it's game over.

There is potential for any country to collapse into anarchy. We must be vigilant to keep it from going that way.

I would like to know everybody's opinions on the one thing that would doom Canada as a single, free, and civil nation.
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Re: Is Canada Doomed?
« Reply #34 on: March 17, 2005, 08:29:23 »

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I would like to know everybody's opinions on the one thing that would doom Canada as a single, free, and civil nation.

Growing civil unrest is a big one,coupled with a massive implosion of our fragile economy.

Offline PPCLI Guy

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Re: Is Canada Doomed?
« Reply #35 on: March 17, 2005, 08:57:05 »
Loss of prosperity

Total loss of identity
"The higher the rank, the more necessary it is that boldness should be accompanied by a reflective mind....for with increase in rank it becomes always a matter less of self-sacrifice and more a matter of the preservation of others, and the good of the whole."

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Offline Brad Sallows

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Re: Is Canada Doomed?
« Reply #36 on: March 17, 2005, 13:09:43 »
I am certainly guilty of bouts of negativism.  I have travelled to several countries, not all primarily English-speaking, in which I could bring myself to live and work comfortably.

The values and character of societies are always subject to change.  Some societies and cultures have proven more amenable to the advancement of freedoms than others.  When the resulting change starts to retard rather than advance freedoms, there is danger.  The values of an earlier Canada were the enablers of the values we hold today.  The values we hold today might be greater enablers or not; I don't think there is enough evidence to decide which way we are moving on the freedom vector.
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Offline Aden_Gatling

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Re: Is Canada Doomed?
« Reply #37 on: March 17, 2005, 13:44:23 »
I think that as long as we continue to allow the growth of Socialism, and Positive Rights in particular, our economy will go the way of the Dodo ... that said, I think that (in the absence of major change) Europe's economy will collapse first which will (hopefully) scare enough Canadians straight ... it CAN happen to us.
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Offline MoOx

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Re: Is Canada Doomed?
« Reply #38 on: March 17, 2005, 19:10:34 »
I think that as long as we continue to allow the growth of Socialism, and Positive Rights in particular, our economy will go the way of the Dodo ... that said, I think that (in the absence of major change) Europe's economy will collapse first which will (hopefully) scare enough Canadians straight ... it CAN happen to us.

Just how is Europe's economy going to collapse? It's comparable to those of the us or asian countries, and europe also has a lot of intrinsic disadvantages the us doesn't: the eurozone has very real language barriers, segmented capital markets, germany is still digesting the old east germany, etc. (canada also is at a scale disadvantage to the us).   for all that, you can still look up the oecd data and see that yes, the us does lead in per-capita gdp, but they're all within the same ballpark. plus, the us is every bit as protectionist (ag subsidies, industrial tarriffs, you name it) as the rest of them, even moreso in many cases.
as for all this tinfoil-hat talk about the supposed "socialism" of europe or canada, do you really believe the canadian economy is closer to comecon than to the us model? Some of the most competitive companies in the world are from europe, and a few from canada as well. just try to name a single soviet enterprise that managed to compete globally. i can't.

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Re: Is Canada Doomed?
« Reply #39 on: March 18, 2005, 09:45:35 »
Quote
as for all this tinfoil-hat talk about the supposed "socialism" of europe or canada, do you really believe the canadian economy is closer to comecon than to the us model?

Totalitarianisim-Is any political system in which a citizen is totally subject to a governing authority in all aspects of day to day life.It involves constant indoctrination achieved by propaganda to erase any potential for dissent.

A communist state by definition is a state ruled by a single political party,sound familiar?
In Marxist political theory,Capitalisim is to be replaced by socialisim and socialisim is to be replaced at some point by communisim.

I think i will keep mt tinfoil hat,and you may keep your rose coloured glasses.

Offline Aden_Gatling

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Re: Is Canada Doomed?
« Reply #40 on: March 18, 2005, 14:32:47 »
Just how is Europe's economy going to collapse?
The crushing cost of the Nanny-state.


Quote
It's comparable to those of the us or asian countries, and europe also has a lot of intrinsic disadvantages the us doesn't: the eurozone has very real language barriers, segmented capital markets, germany is still digesting the old east germany, etc. (canada also is at a scale disadvantage to the us).  for all that, you can still look up the oecd data and see that yes, the us does lead in per-capita gdp, but they're all within the same ballpark. plus, the us is every bit as protectionist (ag subsidies, industrial tarriffs, you name it) as the rest of them, even moreso in many cases.
Europe has tons of advantages and United States tons of disdavantages, too: the point is that as Europe's economy (and Canada's) is becoming increasingly socialized, the US is pulling further and further ahead.  The US is certainly far more protectionist than they let on, but they have *nowhere near* the the level of protectionism of Europe.


Quote
as for all this tinfoil-hat talk about the supposed "socialism" of europe or canada, do you really believe the canadian economy is closer to comecon than to the us model?
Than the US?  Definitely.  What do you mean by "supposed socialism"?  Are you trying to tell me that Trudeau, the NDP and about half (probably more) of Europe's political parties aren't socialist? 

Quote
Some of the most competitive companies in the world are from europe, and a few from canada as well. just try to name a single soviet enterprise that managed to compete globally. i can't.
Not entirely certain what your point is here, but soviet enterprises failed primarily because they were controlled by bureaucrats (much like healthcare is in Canada).  Yes Europe and Canada have some globally competitive companies, but the vast majority are from the US: why do you think that is?

Europe's economies are failing because labour productivity continues to slide (what the hell did they think a 35-hour work week would do).  Higher wages and longer vacations sound nice, but when coupled with dis-incentives to work are courting disaster.  Think of the perversity of the childcare situation in Canada: tax the hell out of people so the 'average' Canadian family (which I think now means both spouses working) can't afford childcare, then spend their money (after suitable administrative deductions for yourself and ad firms that donated to your campaign) to provide them with the service for 'free'.

For much of our history Canada's unemployment rate was close to that of the US (and sometimes lower): after decades of creeping socialism it is around double that of the US, but the revisionists claim that it is in some way related to our geography (or some other rubbish), rather than the 'social safety net' (yes, I am using that last term pejoratively).



New study compares GDP and growth:
EU versus USA


If the European Union were a state in the USA it would belong to the poorest group of states. France, Italy, Great Britain and Germany have lower GDP per capita than all but four of the states in the United States. In fact, GDP per capita is lower in the vast majority of the EU-countries (EU 15) than in most of the individual American states. This puts Europeans at a level of prosperity on par with states such as Arkansas, Mississippi and West Virginia. Only the miniscule country of Luxembourg has higher per capita GDP than the average state in the USA. The results of the new study represent a grave critique of European economic policy.

Stark differences become apparent when comparing official economic statistics. Europe lags behind the USA when comparing GDP per capita and GDP growth rates. The current economic debate among EU leaders lacks an understanding of the gravity of the situation in many European countries. Structural reforms of the European economy as well as far reaching welfare reforms are well overdue. The Lisbon process lacks true impetus, nor is it sufficient to improve the economic prospects of the EU.
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Offline tomahawk6

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Re: Is Canada Doomed?
« Reply #41 on: March 19, 2005, 13:06:17 »
I think the greatest threat to the confederation is the issue of Quebec. At some point I think the people will vote to strike off on their own. Whether Quebec can survive on its own is a different matter entirely. If Quebec leaves then perhaps other Provinces [Alberta and BC] might follow suit. The problem I see [from the outside looking in] is that the more populous eastern Canada has a different agenda than does western Canada. The loss of Quebec voters would hurt the Liberal Party and might level the political playing field in the rest of Canada which I think be a good thing.

Those of US in the red states see Canada as our own future if the Democrats had their way. The erosion of religion and traditional values in Canada has been very steady. Canada is a much different place than it used to be. Canada and the US used to share these traditional values, but we dont anymore. Gay marriage and the legalization of drugs are two issues we have had in common but our two countries are on opposite sides of the issues. Our liberals support it and our conservatives dont. So far the traditional values wins out.

American's dont view Canada as an extension of the US. The charm of Canada to me is its British flavor, as befitting her membership in the Commonwealth. Canada was the colony that remained loyal to Britain. But I find Canada's increasing hostility to US foreign policy [defense driven] a major problem. Canada's major issues are economic [softwood and beef to name a couple]. Canada obstructs US foreign/defense policy which isnt good for the relationship. But Canada's embrace of Euro style socialism is hindering Canada's own economic future. Social programs are preventing Canada from providing for its own defense.
Canada used to be a major military power and now its not. Britain used to be a superpower and now its not. Why do you think that is ? Socialism. Once the NHS was created in Britian taxes went up and healthcare funding began to preclude military spending. Year by year the cost went up. Year by year the military declined. Both Canada and the UK have decided that it is more important to have national healthcare than to have infantry battalions, warships and combat aircraft. The reason is that the world is "safer" we have no enemies. Pretty soon the reduced military capability constrains foreign policy - essentially its a risk averse policy. Dont do anything that might make another country mad. Play it safe. Finally this policy forces the country to oppose the policies of its ally. The enemy of my friend is my friend policy.

I would like to see Canada turn back the clock to a time when she had traditional values that made it possible for Canada to stand tall in the world without regard to what other countries felt. To a time when Canada did something because it was right and not because it was popular. To a time when Canada was a world leader.

Offline Infanteer

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Re: Is Canada Doomed?
« Reply #42 on: March 19, 2005, 13:37:54 »
I think the greatest threat to the confederation is the issue of Quebec. At some point I think the people will vote to strike off on their own. Whether Quebec can survive on its own is a different matter entirely. If Quebec leaves then perhaps other Provinces [Alberta and BC] might follow suit. The problem I see [from the outside looking in] is that the more populous eastern Canada has a different agenda than does western Canada. The loss of Quebec voters would hurt the Liberal Party and might level the political playing field in the rest of Canada which I think be a good thing.

Although I agree with alot of what you say, Tomahawk, I just don't feel the "regional" card is our biggest political hurdle.  When you look at the way voting went in the last election (and in all our elections in general) you find that the main avenue of political division is between City and Non-City (not necessarily rural area).

If you look, the Liberals took (aside from the Maritimes and parts of Ontario this time) almost all of their seats in the major cities.  Even in the West, which hasn't been a Liberal stronghold in the last few decades, the Liberals took ridings in Major city centers (Winnipeg, Vancouver, Edmonton, Victoria) while all the outside ridings sent mostly Conservatives.  The Bloc has, since it split away from the PC party, had a share of the Quebecois malcontent vote (just as Reform had its share of Western Malcontent), but there is a sizeable portion of people outside of the St. Lawrence River valley that don't really care to leave Canada.

I think this may come to trump regionalism - even within a provincial context.  A lumberjack in Northern BC has more in common with a rural fisherman in Nova Scotia then he does with some guy who slings coffee or sell ad space in Downtown Vancouver.
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Offline PPCLI Guy

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Re: Is Canada Doomed?
« Reply #43 on: March 19, 2005, 13:57:04 »
I dithered over responding to this (see - I msut be a Liberal!), but finally decided to weigh in.

I think the greatest threat to the confederation is the issue of Quebec. At some point I think the people will vote to strike off on their own. Whether Quebec can survive on its own is a different matter entirely. If Quebec leaves then perhaps other Provinces [Alberta and BC] might follow suit.

well, we have made through the last 40 years, and i imagine we will continue to do so.

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The problem I see [from the outside looking in] is that the more populous eastern Canada has a different agenda than does western Canada.

That is the nature of a federation.   The Midwest has a different agenda from the Eastern Seabord - and from California.   The Red states have a different agenda from the Blue states.   Homogeneity is both unlikely and unhealthy, to say nothing of boring...

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The loss of Quebec voters would hurt the Liberal Party and might level the political playing field in the rest of Canada which I think be a good thing.

Quebec voters are also Canadian voters.   I guess if we could eliminate all the liberal voters, we would have a "level playing field" - one level enough that even Harper could win.

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Those of US in the red states see Canada as our own future if the Democrats had their way. The erosion of religion and traditional values in Canada has been very steady.


Another way of saying that of course is that the growth and evolution of the state and its values has been steady...

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Canada is a much different place than it used to be.


S'okay by me.

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Canada and the US used to share these traditional values, but we dont anymore.


You say that like it is a bad thing.   We are two different socities, on very different tracks.   Divergence started a long time ago - and we are only slightly tangential to each other.   The farther down the track, the greater the divergence.

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Gay marriage and the legalization of drugs are two issues we have had in common but our two countries are on opposite sides of the issues. Our liberals support it and our conservatives dont. So far the traditional values wins out.

It is okay to be on opposite sides - we are two soverign nations.

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American's dont view Canada as an extension of the US.


Good.

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The charm of Canada to me is its British flavor, as befitting her membership in the Commonwealth. Canada was the colony that remained loyal to Britain.


A view not widely held in Calgary, Dartmouth, or Rimouski...we are, as the saying goes, a mosaic of views, perspectives, and histories

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But I find Canada's increasing hostility to US foreign policy [defense driven] a major problem.


A problem for whom?

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Canada's major issues are economic [softwood and beef to name a couple].


And the vain hope that the rules of NAFTA will be abided by.

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Canada obstructs US foreign/defense policy which isnt good for the relationship

Obstructs, or disagrees with?   I don't see any volition here, except perhaps in response to the above mentioned "economic troubles".

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But Canada's embrace of Euro style socialism is hindering Canada's own economic future. Social programs are preventing Canada from providing for its own defense.

Canada is a democracy - one of several (ok, 2 1/2) in North America.   It is not "social programs" that is preventing Canada from providing for its own defence - it is the democratic will of the people that is doing that.

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Canada used to be a major military power and now its not.


Beg to differ.   We have only been a "major military power" twice: during (and decidedly not after) WW I and WW II.

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Britain used to be a superpower and now its not.


Agreed

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Why do you think that is ? Socialism.


That is a little simplistic, as analysis goes, don't you think?

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Once the NHS was created in Britian taxes went up and healthcare funding began to preclude military spending. Year by year the cost went up. Year by year the military declined. Both Canada and the UK have decided that it is more important to have national healthcare than to have infantry battalions, warships and combat aircraft.


I don't see it as so completely either / or, but I understand your argument.

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The reason is that the world is "safer" we have no enemies. Pretty soon the reduced military capability constrains foreign policy - essentially its a risk averse policy. Dont do anything that might make another country mad. Play it safe. Finally this policy forces the country to oppose the policies of its ally. The enemy of my friend is my friend policy.

Or perhaps it truly is as a result of a more altruisitic and less pragmatic worldview?   The ascendance of liberalism over realism?

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I would like to see Canada turn back the clock to a time when she had traditional values that made it possible for Canada to stand tall in the world without regard to what other countries felt.


I am not a fan of "traditional values" nor do i believe that it was those values that allowed us to "stand tall".

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To a time when Canada did something because it was right and not because it was popular.


Popular - you mean like in accordance with the wishes of the people?

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To a time when Canada was a world leader.

That job is already taken   ;)
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Offline Zipper

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Re: Is Canada Doomed?
« Reply #44 on: March 19, 2005, 14:50:09 »
LOL!! :D

Well said PPCLI.

I found the initial article and following ones quite entertaining. The collapse of the EU within 10 years! HA! I guess the growing US debt has no affect on its economy at all? Also considering that Europe and China hold a vast quantity of US war bonds, it would be interesting if they all decided to cash those in at the same time?

Someone back there stated that the US has control of the majority of large multi-national companies? I think they had better go back and read their facts again.

For those of you who are of the AMajoor Ilk. I think you should all move to southern Alberta. Where you can talk about separating from Canada and joining the States. Where you can drill an oil well in your living room without any environmental damage what-so-ever. Where the minimum wage is so low, you can pay your workers less then what they would make at McDonald's. Where the idea of a social program is a bus ticket to East Vancouver.

You'd love it there.

 :dontpanic:
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Offline Infanteer

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Re: Is Canada Doomed?
« Reply #45 on: March 19, 2005, 14:56:09 »
For those of you who are of the AMajoor Ilk. I think you should all move to southern Alberta. Where you can talk about separating from Canada and joining the States. Where you can drill an oil well in your living room without any environmental damage what-so-ever. Where the minimum wage is so low, you can pay your workers less then what they would make at McDonald's. Where the idea of a social program is a bus ticket to East Vancouver.

You'd love it there.

 :dontpanic:

As one of the "AMajoor Ilk", I love to see valid concerns dismissed with a "Love it or Leave it" (this time applied to socialist policies) approach to counter-arguing the issues.... ::)
« Last Edit: March 19, 2005, 19:06:47 by Infanteer »
"Overall it appears that much of the apparent complexity of modern war stems in practice from the self-imposed complexity of modern HQs" LCol J.P. Storr

air533

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Re: Is Canada Doomed?
« Reply #46 on: March 19, 2005, 18:49:29 »
.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2005, 13:19:39 by air533 »

Offline tomahawk6

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Re: Is Canada Doomed?
« Reply #47 on: March 19, 2005, 23:13:49 »
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050319/ap_on_he_me/canada_wait_your_turn

Article seems to point to a meltdown in the healthcare system. Hope not.

Offline Zipper

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Re: Is Canada Doomed?
« Reply #48 on: March 20, 2005, 01:22:56 »
We may have long waits for hospital care. But that is because we are servicing the ENTIRE population. Not just those who can afford it.

Nulli Secondus - Second to none

"You hit somebody with your fist and not with your fingers spread" - Heinz Gudarien

"Milli Vanilli wern't frauds, they were prophets" - Ed the Sock on modern music.

Offline Brad Sallows

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Re: Is Canada Doomed?
« Reply #49 on: March 20, 2005, 02:41:57 »
So many people wring their hands about softwood and cattle, yet are prepared to export health care services in the name of ideological purity.  Go figure.
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