Author Topic: Mortars: 51 mm, 60 mm, 81 mm, 120 mm & more  (Read 388877 times)

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Offline MilEME09

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Re: Mortars: 51 mm, 60 mm, 81 mm, 120 mm & more
« Reply #525 on: December 08, 2014, 04:36:01 »
looks like you use the sighting system which looks like a holo sight on top of a laser range finder to get a rough angle of attack if you can visually see the target area that is.
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Offline GnyHwy

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Re: Mortars: 51 mm, 60 mm, 81 mm, 120 mm & more
« Reply #526 on: December 09, 2014, 05:43:08 »
You can also dial a range in if you are forced to estimate or pick it from a map.  I have heard anecdotal evidence that they are quite accurate, assuming you have the correct range.   
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Offline Chris Pook

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Re: Mortars: 51 mm, 60 mm, 81 mm, 120 mm & more
« Reply #527 on: September 13, 2018, 11:09:17 »
And it's back......

Quote
Army Wants 120mm Mortar Systems That Can Fire Out to 12 Miles
[/b][/size]

https://www.military.com/kitup/2018/09/12/army-wants-120mm-mortar-systems-can-fire-out-12-miles.html

Needless to say, not our Army.

Quote
The U.S. Army wants to replace its current mounted and towed 120mm mortars with new systems that will shoot farther and offer protection for mounted crews.

Army officials from Product Manager Precision Fires and Mortars and Project Manager Combat Ammunition Systems began market surveys in August to find defense firms capable of producing a 120mm Mortar Future Indirect Fire Turret by 2021 and a 120mm Extended Range Mortar system by 2026, according to two Aug. 2 solicitations.

The new 120mm Mortar Future Indirect Fire Turret, or FIFT, "is a 120mm turret that provides protection from enemy counter battery systems and insulates soldiers from the effects of both noise and blast overpressure," the FIFT solicitation states. "This turret shall be capable of firing heavier projectiles at a greater range than the current Battalion Mortar System (BMS) or Recoil Mortar System-Light (RMS-L)."

As an objective requirement, the Army wants the new turret system to shoot out to 20,000 meters, or 12.4 miles, according to the FIFT solicitation.....

The Army also wants the FIFT to have more automation so the "physical burden on crew is reduced, while supporting a high rate-of-fire capability," according to the solicitation. In loading and firing, the Army wants a system where "ammo transitions from stowage through the firing event without human contact."

At a minimum, the system should have a maximum rate of fire, or MROF, of 16 rounds per minute for one minute followed by a sustained rate of fire, or SROF, of 6 rounds per minute "indefinitely," the solicitation states. Ideally, the Army wants a system capable of "being fired at the MROF of 24 rounds per minute for 2 minutes and maintain a SROF of 12 rounds per minute indefinitely."

The FIFT may be manned or unmanned and designed to be compatible with the Stryker, Armored Multi-Purpose Vehicle, and Next-Generation Combat Vehicle.


Which seems to bring us back to

https://ndiastorage.blob.core.usgovcloudapi.net/ndia/2014/armaments/Wed16495_Tainen.pdf



Even more curious - and something that might be more of interest to Canada is the prospect of a 20 km x 81 mm mortar.


Quote
Both the Army and the Marine Corps have expressed interest in mortar systems that shoot farther. Earlier this year, the Corps began searching for a company capable of producing the Advanced Capability Extended Range Mortar, or ACERM -- a mortar round compatible with existing Marine and Army M252 81mm mortar systems that offers an effective range of up to 20,000 meters as well.


Personally I think that any turreted mortar system should be assigned to the Arty, especially if it is going to be lobbing bombs 20 km down range and likely to be manoeuvering behind the forward echelons.

What do the pros think about the other system though?  20 km 81s?  It sounds kind of long and light to me.
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Offline tomahawk6

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Re: Mortars: 51 mm, 60 mm, 81 mm, 120 mm & more
« Reply #528 on: September 13, 2018, 11:35:35 »
The US Arm The Army is alway assigns mortars to the infantry. the primary mortar at the battalion level is the 120mm and the 81mm mortar at company level. Extending the range of mortars is good but we cant rely on artillery. I would prefer a 105mm solution but I also like the Russian solution of 160mm and 240mm mortars that are wheeled so they can be towed or airlifted.

Offline Colin P

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Re: Mortars: 51 mm, 60 mm, 81 mm, 120 mm & more
« Reply #529 on: September 13, 2018, 11:38:32 »
A 20k 81mm is basically a long range 25pdr, although very affected by windage I suspect. Velocity at the beginning of the arc will be fast, unless it's rocket assisted, which likely means a 60mm like HE load.

Offline Chris Pook

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Re: Mortars: 51 mm, 60 mm, 81 mm, 120 mm & more
« Reply #530 on: September 13, 2018, 11:39:39 »
The US Arm The Army is alway assigns mortars to the infantry. the primary mortar at the battalion level is the 120mm and the 81mm mortar at company level. Extending the range of mortars is good but we cant rely on artillery. I would prefer a 105mm solution but I also like the Russian solution of 160mm and 240mm mortars that are wheeled so they can be towed or airlifted.

Yes T6, but you also give your infantry 105mm cannons to play with.   Our army tends to feel that those sorts of things should be left in the hands of the professionals with scarred scalps.
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Offline tomahawk6

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Re: Mortars: 51 mm, 60 mm, 81 mm, 120 mm & more
« Reply #531 on: September 13, 2018, 12:05:06 »
The artillery operate the towed 105's /M119. They are part of support FA battalions and have been used in Afghanistan. I would like to see more HIMARS/MRLS fire units. 


http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/18550/us-army-eyes-replacing-its-105mm-and-155mm-towed-howitzers-with-one-new-cannon

Offline Chris Pook

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Re: Mortars: 51 mm, 60 mm, 81 mm, 120 mm & more
« Reply #532 on: September 13, 2018, 17:12:31 »
The artillery operate the towed 105's /M119. They are part of support FA battalions and have been used in Afghanistan. I would like to see more HIMARS/MRLS fire units. 


http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/18550/us-army-eyes-replacing-its-105mm-and-155mm-towed-howitzers-with-one-new-cannon

Understood T6. 

Actually I was thinking about these 105s



And Colin

Are you suggesting the reintroduction of the  25pdr QF as an alternative to either the 81 or the 120?

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Offline tomahawk6

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Re: Mortars: 51 mm, 60 mm, 81 mm, 120 mm & more
« Reply #533 on: September 13, 2018, 17:44:55 »
I think the 25 pounder QF would fit the bill.

Offline Colin P

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Re: Mortars: 51 mm, 60 mm, 81 mm, 120 mm & more
« Reply #534 on: September 13, 2018, 19:55:17 »
I think the 25 pounder QF would fit the bill.

Combat proven, adaptive to high, medium angle and direct fire modes, 306 degrees traverse on a deployable gravity assisted self contained stability platform, which improves accuracy and reduce gun movement from recoil forces. Hardened against EW attacks, offers protection to personal from shrapnel and 7.62x47. Comes complete with it's own articulated ammunition support system and has low maintenance hydraulic braking systems. The gun system can be married with visual and optical aiming system and can be fitted with electrical systems for night warfare. Can be moved by a dedicated tractor or any expedient vehicle over 1/4ton. Fires a multiude of different types of semi-fixed rounds which can be sourced from around the world and is capable of defeating BMP's from all angles and a T-55 from the side with AP ammunition fired with supercharge (muzzlebrake option fitted) System has been deployed world over in Arctic, desert, temperate and mountainous terrain. Vehicle mount options are also available.     

Offline MilEME09

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Re: Mortars: 51 mm, 60 mm, 81 mm, 120 mm & more
« Reply #535 on: September 13, 2018, 20:54:15 »
Don't forget cheap to manufacture, all the manuals exist, i believe there was a Pack arty version for airbourne
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Offline Infanteer

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Re: Mortars: 51 mm, 60 mm, 81 mm, 120 mm & more
« Reply #536 on: September 13, 2018, 21:11:58 »
Let's go with the Enfields while we're at it!
"Overall it appears that much of the apparent complexity of modern war stems in practice from the self-imposed complexity of modern HQs" LCol J.P. Storr

Offline Chris Pook

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Re: Mortars: 51 mm, 60 mm, 81 mm, 120 mm & more
« Reply #537 on: September 13, 2018, 21:40:02 »
Let's go with the Enfields while we're at it!

Now you're getting it!  At least with the Enfield you can attach a proper sword....  ;D



Just the thing for charging the Turks....



But back to the AMOS - AMOS on LAV - infantry, armour or artillery?
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Offline FJAG

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Re: Mortars: 51 mm, 60 mm, 81 mm, 120 mm & more
« Reply #538 on: September 13, 2018, 22:10:27 »
There's a fundamental difference between a battalion's indirect fire support weapon and artillery in general. The battalion has a limited area of influence dictated by it's organic target acquisition and fire control capability. Artillery on the other hand is designed to reach out beyond the battalions and across a broader front. It's target acquisition and fire control systems are designed to allow that. There's a bit of apples and oranges to the issue.

There's nothing wrong with longer range mortars. If nothing else then they can be positioned further back from the front lines into more secure areas. In worse case scenarios, such as Afghanistan, where a battalion might have a vast AO to cover, it provides more dedicated organic support further out.

IMHO, mortars regardless of calibre, like guns should be self propelled and armoured for no other reason than our near peer adversaries have really good counter mortar/gun capabilities and we all seem to have forgotten just how quickly counter mortar/gun, rockets with sub munitions get to you after your first shot. Again IMHO, any army planning to use towed guns or dismounted mortars--especially when transported by thin skinned vehicles--in a near peer environment is flirting with professional negligence. (I find it quite interesting that a mortar squad in a US Stryker bn has both a vehicle mounted 120 mm mortar and an 81 mm mortar for dismounted operations--somewhat reminiscent of the old airborne battery which could deploy 6 x 105 mm L5 pack howitzers or 12 x 81mm mortars or a combination of the two)

Yes. We need a HIMARS/MLRS capability.

 :cheers:
« Last Edit: September 13, 2018, 22:33:10 by FJAG »
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Offline Infanteer

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Re: Mortars: 51 mm, 60 mm, 81 mm, 120 mm & more
« Reply #539 on: September 13, 2018, 22:43:49 »
What he said.

Inf Mortars - Support a Bn

Arty Mortars - Support a Bde

Who you give them to should be dependent on what effect you want to achieve.
"Overall it appears that much of the apparent complexity of modern war stems in practice from the self-imposed complexity of modern HQs" LCol J.P. Storr

Offline tomahawk6

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Re: Mortars: 51 mm, 60 mm, 81 mm, 120 mm & more
« Reply #540 on: September 13, 2018, 23:07:44 »
If you are in Afghanistan you need mortars and the type of fire that an MRLS/HIMARS can lay down. Air support might be a long way off. The bad guys certainly use mortars.

Offline Hamish Seggie

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Re: Mortars: 51 mm, 60 mm, 81 mm, 120 mm & more
« Reply #541 on: September 13, 2018, 23:22:24 »
Interesting conversation. Please carry on.

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Offline Colin P

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Re: Mortars: 51 mm, 60 mm, 81 mm, 120 mm & more
« Reply #542 on: September 13, 2018, 23:23:29 »
What he said.

Inf Mortars - Support a Bn

Arty Mortars - Support a Bde

Who you give them to should be dependent on what effect you want to achieve.

Infantry--60>81mm mortars

Artillery-- 120mm towed or SP

Offline tomahawk6

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Re: Mortars: 51 mm, 60 mm, 81 mm, 120 mm & more
« Reply #543 on: September 13, 2018, 23:39:58 »
The Army wants more range out of the 120mm mortar, but at what cost ? If the goal is to engage an enemy out to 20 miles I think that's a job for the 105 and 155 howitzers or HIMARs/MRLS. I see the mortar as infantry support by company and battalion mortars. Back in the day the non mech/infantry had the 81mm at the company level with battalion mortars consisting of the 4.2 mortar.

Offline MilEME09

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Re: Mortars: 51 mm, 60 mm, 81 mm, 120 mm & more
« Reply #544 on: September 13, 2018, 23:42:57 »
Infantry--60>81mm mortars

Artillery-- 120mm towed or SP

Little over simplified, why only SP for arty? Wouldnt you want a sp mortor carrier in the infantry?
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Offline Chris Pook

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Re: Mortars: 51 mm, 60 mm, 81 mm, 120 mm & more
« Reply #545 on: September 14, 2018, 11:53:17 »
Couple of points...

What is the size of the Area of Operations and does the size of the Area vary with the terrain?  (Prairie-Desert-Arctic vs Jungle-Forest-Urban)

A long-range mortar, with lots of ammunition - doesn't that need a vehicle in support?  Even a "dismounted" mortar benefits from an ATV to hump the ammo.

But.

While recognizing the value of large, lumbering, heavily armoured kit - I still tend to look at the value of light forces, even in a near-peer environment, as being to rapidly exploit opportunities to seize strategically important ground before the enemy gets there. 

So, for me, the 60-81 mortars (with or without ATVs/UTVs  and 2-7 km range) that can be dropped by 'chute or lifted by helo, make sense for light forces or even for rifle coy tms.  On the other hand the 120 seems to me to demand a vehicle and if so it might as well be a variant of one in current service, so the LAV.  And if the LAV then an automated, permanently mounted mortar.

As to the cap badge - that comes back to the intended employment an the area of operations.  My sense is that a 20 km mortar is going to cover a large AO - an area considerably larger than even a 4 coy, 600 bayonet battalion could secure or invest, even in open terrain.  That brings the debate, in my mind, down to Blackhats or Gunners, or perhaps both.   A 20 km mortar attached to a Cavalry-Light Armoured Regiment makes eminent sense.  Likewise one attached to an Infantry Brigade equally makes sense.   I lean towards the notion of SP 120s as Arty tools that can be used to support both Cavalry and Infantry as occasions demand.

Perhaps the Brigade Arty should have a large SP-120 battery of something like 16 turrets in 4 tps of 4.
+300 « Last Edit: September 14, 2018, 11:57:29 by Chris Pook »
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