Author Topic: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)  (Read 869016 times)

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Offline OceanBonfire

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Offline Colin P

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #2026 on: June 01, 2018, 16:18:21 »
I did the approval on that around a year ago as I recall.

Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #2027 on: June 01, 2018, 22:58:13 »
I did the approval on that around a year ago as I recall.

How many times did you have to send it back for edits? :)
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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #2028 on: June 06, 2018, 05:52:28 »
News on the cost and new timelines for the JSS.
https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.4693088

With these costs and timelines, we can kiss any chance of a third JSS good bye for certain.

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #2029 on: June 06, 2018, 08:20:54 »
Time to cancel and buy off shore. I was all for Canadian shipbuilding, but that price is stupid.
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Offline Chief Engineer

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #2030 on: June 06, 2018, 08:25:03 »
Time to cancel and buy off shore. I was all for Canadian shipbuilding, but that price is stupid.

That's never going to happen, the contract is signed and pulling out now will cost the government dearly.
"When your draught exceeds your depth, you are most assuredly aground"

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Offline Humphrey Bogart

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #2031 on: June 06, 2018, 08:33:09 »
Most expensive oiler ever  :rofl:

This is yet another confirmation for me why I don't invest in Canadian Companies and put all my money in to foreign and american investments.  We couldn't build a product anyone wants for a reasonable price if we tried.

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #2032 on: June 06, 2018, 08:36:10 »
I wonder if anyone told the bright people at Treasury Board that this would happen when they denied any proposal to continue building government ships at Saint Johns Shipyards after the completion of the CPF Project.

Just a reminder
At her heyday.


And the result now after how many billions spent to get this place up to speed?


God-damn criminal as far as I'm concerned.

Offline Humphrey Bogart

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #2033 on: June 06, 2018, 08:50:00 »
I wonder if anyone told the bright people at Treasury Board that this would happen when they denied any proposal to continue building government ships at Saint Johns Shipyards after the completion of the CPF Project.

Just a reminder
At her heyday.


And the result now after how many billions spent to get this place up to speed?


God-damn criminal as far as I'm concerned.

The problem with Saint John is it's a Tory city.  The Chrétien Government was never going to give them any money when all these decisions were made.  Actually, the Government gave Irving $200 million to decommission the Shipyard and there now sits two Irving Mills on the site.  We paid them to decommission a shipyard that had been building large vessels and Naval Ships for 100+ years.

We paid them again to build a new yard, in a new city that had never had a history of building large ships!

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #2034 on: June 06, 2018, 08:53:15 »
The problem with Saint John is it's a Tory city.  The Chrétien Government was never going to give them any money when all these decisions were made.  Actually, the Government gave Irving $200 million to decommission the Shipyard and there now sits two Irving Mills on the site.  We paid them to decommission a shipyard that had been building large vessels and Naval Ships for 100+ years.

We paid them again to build a new yard, in a new city that had never had a history of building large ships!

 :brickwall:

Offline Colin P

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #2035 on: June 06, 2018, 10:34:12 »
The accounting methods are half the problem, the Jetties needed rebuilding, no matter what new ship you docked there, stupidity. So 60% 0f 3.4Billion is roughly 1.9billion for the 2 ships, still pricey, but then what isn't in Canada. I respect what Davie has done, but starting a new build with 3/4 finished design specs, would their costs be much different? 

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #2036 on: June 06, 2018, 10:44:25 »
The problem with Saint John is it's a Tory city.  The Chrétien Government was never going to give them any money when all these decisions were made.  Actually, the Government gave Irving $200 million to decommission the Shipyard and there now sits two Irving Mills on the site.  We paid them to decommission a shipyard that had been building large vessels and Naval Ships for 100+ years.

We paid them again to build a new yard, in a new city that had never had a history of building large ships!

Pay to build a yard.

Pay to destroy a yard.

Pay to build a yard.....

Keynes is happy.

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Offline MarkOttawa

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #2037 on: June 06, 2018, 10:58:06 »
Meanwhile Royal Navy is paying about $200 million each for four built quickly in South Korea by Daewoo Tides Class replenishment ships of 37,000t--may be less capable than JSS in some aspects but given that our cost is now $1.7 billion per ship (even if costings quite dissimilar) our paying almost nine times as much for each is insane:
https://www.naval-technology.com/projects/tide-class-mars-royal-fleet-auxiliary-tankers/


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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #2038 on: June 06, 2018, 11:09:38 »
It would be nice if the bureaucrats involved would itemize the costs of the project.
How much is for infrastructure? How much is wages to build the infrastructure.

All we hear is 4 Billion dollars for 2 ships and people lose their minds.

Offline Chief Engineer

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #2039 on: June 06, 2018, 11:49:47 »
Meanwhile Royal Navy is paying about $200 million each for four built quickly in South Korea by Daewoo Tides Class replenishment ships of 37,000t--may be less capable than JSS in some aspects but given that our cost is now $1.7 billion per ship (even if costings quite dissimilar) our paying almost nine times as much for each is insane:
https://www.naval-technology.com/projects/tide-class-mars-royal-fleet-auxiliary-tankers/


Mark
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Aren't we factoring in the cost of the JSS rebuilding new jetties and maintenance?
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Offline dapaterson

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #2040 on: June 06, 2018, 12:00:29 »
It would be nice if the bureaucrats involved would itemize the costs of the project.
How much is for infrastructure? How much is wages to build the infrastructure.

All we hear is 4 Billion dollars for 2 ships and people lose their minds.

I am reasonably certain that those responsible for the many interrelated activities that make up that ~4B can tell you where the money is planned to be spent, but by necessity some things get simplified as they roll up (otherwise the level of detail risks obscuring things).

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #2041 on: June 06, 2018, 12:03:21 »
Aren't we factoring in the cost of the JSS rebuilding new jetties and maintenance?

Which is odd because isn't the J Jetty project in Halifax under the AOPS, and the A and B Jetty projects under their own project?

Adding the cost to make it seem worse?

Offline Uzlu

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #2042 on: June 06, 2018, 12:19:22 »
Meanwhile Royal Navy is paying about $200 million each for four built quickly in South Korea by Daewoo Tides Class replenishment ships of 37,000t--may be less capable than JSS in some aspects but given that our cost is now $1.7 billion per ship (even if costings quite dissimilar) our paying almost nine times as much for each is insane
Not $1.7 billion--$1.02 billion.  The ships are 60% of the $3.4 billion.  Five Tide-class ships will eventually be built.  The more ships built, the lower the cost per ship.  The further off into the future a ship is to be built, the higher the cost—increases are greater than the rate of inflation.
 
One Tide-class ship is already in service.  Construction has already started on the other four.  Construction, however, is yet to start on the Protecteur-class ships.  Not an apples-to-apples comparison.

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #2043 on: June 06, 2018, 12:20:50 »
I am reasonably certain that those responsible for the many interrelated activities that make up that ~4B can tell you where the money is planned to be spent, but by necessity some things get simplified as they roll up (otherwise the level of detail risks obscuring things).

Ship cost total = XXXX
Construction cost =XXXX
Systems costs = XXXXXX
Software & Licenses =XXXXX
Costs for support infrastructure that is unique for that design = XXXX

That is the level of detail most interested people are looking for. Regardless if the ships are built at Davie, Seaspan, South Korea or Germany, they will still need jetties to tie up to and maintenance contracts. Including those costs is just plain stupid and is one of the reasons why I have very low respect for TB and their minions. With the information above we can then see if we are getting value for money. If one design requires 200 million in infrastructure costs over the others, then that needs to be explained why.


Offline dapaterson

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #2044 on: June 06, 2018, 13:07:28 »
There's actually a document within DND called the "Project Approval Directive" or PAD which details how things are approved and what costs are to be included (conversion training for operators and maintainers, new training materials required, personnel to deliver the project, initial spares, custom tooling etc etc).


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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #2045 on: June 06, 2018, 14:34:00 »
The question is, how our those costs relevant to the ship purchase/build? If the capacity is required, then the only thing to be measured is the difference in those costs, if they are greater than a certain percentage. We ran 2 AOR's for years, those costs should be the baseline and then savings/extra costs can be highlighted.

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #2046 on: June 06, 2018, 15:18:08 »
Uzlu:

Quote
...
Not $1.7 billion--$1.02 billion. The ships are 60% of the $3.4 billion. Five Tide-class ships will eventually be built...One Tide-class ship is already in service.  Construction has already started on the other four...

Actually four ordered, looks like two already in service:
Quote
Third new Tide class tanker arrives in UK
March 28, 2018

The third of four new support tankers to be delivered to the UK has arrived in Cornwall for customisation and trials before entering service with the Royal Fleet Auxiliary and being deployed on operations with the Royal Navy.

The arrival of RFA Tidesurge comes just weeks after her sister ship, RFA Tidespring, met up at sea with aircraft carrier HMS Queen Elizabeth for the first time.

The 39,000-tonne tankers can carry up to 19,000 cubic metres of fuel and 1,400 cubic metres of fresh water in support of Royal Navy operations all over the world.

The detailed customisation work to prepare RFA Tidesurge and her sister ships for operations is being undertaken at the A&P shipyard in Falmouth, sustaining around 300 jobs...

While in Falmouth RFA Tidesurge will be fitted with UK specific armour, self-defence weaponry and communications systems, with the total UK work content, including A&P, in the Tide Class programme worth around £150 million and sustaining further jobs at 27 UK-based companies.

The customisation work is expected to take around four months after which RFA Tidesurge will begin final sea trials before entering service in Autumn this year.
https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/third-new-tide-class-tanker-arrives-in-uk/

Good question whether those "customisation" costs are included in the $200 million each figure. If not at roughly $65 million per ship would raise cost to $265 million.  Still 1/4 of $1.02 billion per JSS you note.

More:

Quote
UK’s fourth Tide-class tanker RFA Tideforce named in South Korea

RFA Tideforce, the final of four Tide-class tankers being built for the UK in South Korea, was named on January 24 in a ceremony at the Daewoo Shipbuilding & Marine Engineering shipyard in South Korea.

The ceremony was attended by Royal Marine General Gordon Messenger, British ambassador to Republic of Korea Charles Hay and a number of shipyard and government officials.

The tanker is now set to undergo finishing touches before being officially delivered to Royal Navy in the first half of 2018, according to the shipbuilder.

Once it reaches UK waters after a two-month voyage, the ship will undergo further outfitting, to receive armor, self-defense weaponry and communications systems, and sea trials before entering service.

Future RFA Tideforce, along with sister ships RFA Tidespring, RFA Tiderace and RFA Tidesurge are designed to carry up to 19,000 cubic meters of fuel and 1,400 cubic meters of fresh water in support of Royal Navy operations the new Queen Elizabeth-class aircraft carriers.

The Tide Class has a flight deck able to accommodate the large Chinook helicopter and offer significant improvements over previous RFA tankers such as double hulls and greater environmental protection measures.
https://navaltoday.com/2018/01/24/uks-fourth-tide-class-tanker-rfa-tideforce-named-in-south-korea/

Capabilities vs JSS?

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Offline Uzlu

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #2047 on: June 06, 2018, 15:29:26 »
Actually four ordered
And one for Norway.

Offline LoboCanada

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #2048 on: June 06, 2018, 15:54:00 »
Another missed opportunity:

https://navaltoday.com/2018/06/05/royal-navy-offering-wave-class-tanker-to-brazil-media/

I admit I know nothing on AORs and such, but consider this:

We buy 1 or 2 Wave-Class tankers, they're already ready to go. Shouldn't take long to throw some electronic/RCN interoperability systems on them that they already threw on the Asterix at Davie, + they have the recent xp. Use them as Interim AOR(s) until JSS comes online. Then throw some more money at them again to turn them into Davies "Peace Support Ships" for whenever the next (inevitable) gap in shipbuilding projects comes up. Then keep it for a new Peace Support/DART capability/role OR sell it to almost anyone and not worry about it being used to hurt civilians as its a support ship.

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #2049 on: June 06, 2018, 17:20:52 »
Another missed opportunity:

https://navaltoday.com/2018/06/05/royal-navy-offering-wave-class-tanker-to-brazil-media/

I admit I know nothing on AORs and such, but consider this:

We buy 1 or 2 Wave-Class tankers, they're already ready to go. Shouldn't take long to throw some electronic/RCN interoperability systems on them that they already threw on the Asterix at Davie, + they have the recent xp. Use them as Interim AOR(s) until JSS comes online. Then throw some more money at them again to turn them into Davies "Peace Support Ships" for whenever the next (inevitable) gap in shipbuilding projects comes up. Then keep it for a new Peace Support/DART capability/role OR sell it to almost anyone and not worry about it being used to hurt civilians as its a support ship.

You want us to buy more used garbage from the Brits?, no thank you!
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All opinions stated are not official policy of the CF and of a private individual

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