Author Topic: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)  (Read 789173 times)

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Offline Colin P

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #2000 on: April 17, 2018, 10:14:08 »
Suggestions for the mods, the "Further adventures of the Asterix" might warrant a thread split now that she is in service?

Offline Colin P

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Offline Swampbuggy

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #2002 on: April 18, 2018, 16:46:14 »
My God is Davie’s media department worth it’s weight in gold! Their productions are almost Hollywood level slick. Beautiful ship...

Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #2003 on: April 18, 2018, 17:22:50 »
I agree: Very slick. We should hire their PR firm to design CAF recruiting publicity strategy and adverts.  :nod:

Two small things I like: The coffee machine on the bridge - just behind the captain's chair  ;D; and the big, aft located bridge that lets you see over the frigates and with all RAS operations happening in front of you, instead of behind as in the previous AOR's. One quick look and you take all that matters in without having to look forward, then go to each bridge wings and look aft from each as we had to do on the old Protecteur class.

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #2004 on: April 18, 2018, 19:05:12 »
I also like that the bridge wings are enclosed and give a view over the side.  The RNA WAVERULER, I toured in Martinique had that feature as well.  Very nice.

Offline Swampbuggy

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #2005 on: April 18, 2018, 19:42:58 »
I wonder if the benefits from the aft bridge location was one of the main reasons why the Navantia bid was passed over in favour of the BERLIN class, for the JSS project. Certainly that style seems to be the preferred design for many new oilers, including the TIDE class and the new NZ AOR.

Offline Underway

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #2006 on: April 20, 2018, 13:15:37 »
Both those designs were compliant.  I don't think the "view" from the bridge would be good enough reason to pick one bid over another.  It probably came down to cost of accessing/refining the design.

Offline Swampbuggy

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #2007 on: April 20, 2018, 16:11:40 »
Fair enough. From a casual observer POV it just looks like most modern AOR’s are designed bridge aft. I guess what I mean is that if the CANTABRIA and BERLIN were the same $ with similar amounts of work required to meet Canada’s needs, I suspect you’d pick the latter style for the benefits mentioned above.

Offline Underway

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #2008 on: April 20, 2018, 18:34:41 »
Fair enough. From a casual observer POV it just looks like most modern AOR’s are designed bridge aft. I guess what I mean is that if the CANTABRIA and BERLIN were the same $ with similar amounts of work required to meet Canada’s needs, I suspect you’d pick the latter style for the benefits mentioned above.

I've never stood a watch (or sailed on) and AOR so I don't even know if a view of the refueling deck is even important for those who drive the ship.  You need to see where other ships are in relation to yourself, and observe their approaches and break aways, but actually watch the deckwork doesn't seem like it would be that important for the watchkeeper, as long as good comms are being used to pass info (when lines are across etc...).  But I'm not really the expert to ask about this.

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #2009 on: April 20, 2018, 18:41:23 »
I think it would be very desirable to the OOW, CO during a RAS.

Offline FSTO

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #2010 on: April 20, 2018, 19:24:10 »
I've driven PRO during many RAS's and it would have been very nice to be able to see everything going on in the dump at a glance while you are scanning the horizon for oncoming issues. You can have the greatest communications system in the world but being able to see things with your own eyes will give you an extra dose of comfort.

I'm happy that they went with the house aft and all the working gear forward.

Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #2011 on: April 20, 2018, 20:00:24 »
As I indicated, it's something I think is nice and that I liked, I didn't say it was essential.

Look at FSTO's post. I never "drove" PRO when I served onboard, but at RAS station, I was 2OOW, FixO or "secondary" Seaguard ( With Captain Guy, we always had a JO on the bridge closed up on a second radar to watch for contacts at long range)

Underway: Many things can go wrong on deck on an AOR even before the refuelling ships are alongside. Remember - we're the mother ship: we have the heavy gear, the high power pumps and all the high tension lines and high power winches. Also, as mother ship, we always took our responsibility for watching out for traffic and calling out the scratch runs, changes of speed or courses for the whole evolution seriously (obviously). Finally, also remember those pressure and suction zones they teach you about for making your approaches on destroyers/frigates? Well, even though the AOR has a lot more weight - and thus inertia - they still work both ways and we get sucked and pushed also, so being able to keep an eye on the helmsman at the right moment is useful, especially with ships on both sides at different stages of their approach.

Anyway, as FSTO alluded to, good comms is one thing and necessary (probably even more so in my days when we didn't have deck cameras with the picture displayed on bridge monitors), but its damn nice to have that extra capability to spot trouble immediately and for yourself when watch keeping on the bridge.

   

Offline whiskey601

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #2012 on: April 26, 2018, 22:13:29 »

Anyway, as FSTO alluded to, good comms is one thing and necessary (probably even more so in my days when we didn't have deck cameras with the picture displayed on bridge monitors), but its damn nice to have that extra capability to spot trouble immediately and for yourself when watch keeping on the bridge.

In sense, like the warning your vehicle side and rear view mirror: "Objects are closer than they appear".   



*mod edit to fix quote link
« Last Edit: April 28, 2018, 15:32:44 by Good2Golf »

Offline Colin P

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #2013 on: May 02, 2018, 11:02:05 »
Interesting side note, we just had a new volunteer show up at our Navy League Cadet hall last night, he is a CPO that is going to be attached to Vancouver Shipyards to oversee planning and work on the new supply ships for the next couple of years.

Offline AirDet

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #2014 on: May 02, 2018, 14:03:45 »
The Karel Doorman is my favourite Joint Support Ship... I wish we had 2-3 of those :P For how Canada would use them, we would never even need to look in the direction of an LHD.

Agreed. It would also be easier to sell the idea to the public compared to an LHD or other honking ship. Doorman would have been very handy on the Somalia, East Timor and Haiti missions. However our faithful old AORs did us proud.
Just because an opinion differs doesn't make it any less valid. Remember those who gave their ALL to guarantee freedom of speech.

Offline whiskey601

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #2015 on: May 02, 2018, 18:47:52 »
A favourite out of how many? Isnt  Karl Doorman the sole and only purpose built  Joint Support Ship.  Others appear to be “multi-role” which is a significant difference.

Offline Dolphin_Hunter

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #2016 on: May 03, 2018, 05:03:37 »
You know what grinds my gears?  The term “Joint Support Ship”.

These are not JSS vessels, they are nothing more than Auxiliary Oiler Replenishment vessels. 

Might as well call our frigates, helicopter carriers..

Offline FSTO

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #2017 on: May 03, 2018, 06:26:23 »
You know what grinds my gears?  The term “Joint Support Ship”.

These are not JSS vessels, they are nothing more than Auxiliary Oiler Replenishment vessels. 

Might as well call our frigates, helicopter carriers..

You have to use the word "joint" to get anything built these days.

Offline Colin P

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #2018 on: May 03, 2018, 11:39:29 »
You know what grinds my gears?  The term “Joint Support Ship”.

These are not JSS vessels, they are nothing more than Auxiliary Oiler Replenishment vessels. 

Might as well call our frigates, helicopter carriers..

Well we could follow the Japanese with their Izumo-class helicopter destroyer

Offline NavyShooter

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #2019 on: May 03, 2018, 12:47:30 »
Do we really want to pay Irving another $290 Million dollars to 'Canadianize' another country's ship design?

Insert disclaimer statement here....

:panzer:

Offline Colin P

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #2020 on: May 03, 2018, 13:20:47 »
You have to use the word "joint" to get anything built these days.

We can make it revenue neutral by moving product from Jamaica, when not needed by the military. Just taking a new twist on "Joint"  8)

Offline garb811

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #2021 on: May 17, 2018, 20:58:40 »
Quote
The federal government has approved plans to start some work on the navy's new support ships in the coming months in a bid to keep delivery of the much-needed vessels from slipping farther behind schedule.

Seaspan Shipyards is expected to begin cutting steel on some parts of the two vessels in Vancouver this summer during a lull in the construction of two science vessels for the Canadian Coast Guard, several sources told The Canadian Press.

The science vessels will still be delivered first, but officials are hoping that the head start will result in the first Protecteur-class joint support ship, as the naval vessels are officially known, being delivered 2022.

More at link:  Feds OK early start to construction of navy's new supply ships


Offline Underway

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #2022 on: May 18, 2018, 10:40:32 »
Thought this was going to happen.  Seaspan had identified a number of blocks they could start building concurrently that will not change as the design is finalized.  IIRC it was the bow section that didn't require any changes from the Bohnn design.

Offline Colin P

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #2023 on: May 20, 2018, 15:05:02 »
Good plan the 2 remaining OFSV will be finished soon, the SV design has some sort of issues that people don't want to talk about, I but going by other Federal designs, I will assume stability being a major factor.

Offline MarkOttawa

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Re: AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)
« Reply #2024 on: June 01, 2018, 12:49:19 »
Gov't still hoping partial JSS pre-build will allow 2022 first delivery date--on verra:

Quote
Cost questions abound as work set to start on navy's new support ships

The cutting of steel for the navy's long overdue support ships will begin next month in Vancouver, even though the federal government doesn't know how much the two vessels will ultimately cost.

Federal procurement minister Carla Qualtrough confirmed plans for an early start to work on the supply ships during a breakfast address Thursday at the Cansec defence show in Ottawa.

Seaspan Shipyards will receive $66 million to work on several dozen components of the so-called joint support ships during a lull in the building of two other Canadian Coast Guard vessels.

The government is hoping that advance work will shave about a year off the expected delivery time for the first support vessel, which is currently slated to hit the water in 2023.

It will also ensure Seaspan continues to have work for its employees during what would otherwise be a dead zone between construction of the last of three coast guard fisheries vessels and a new coast guard ocean science ship.

"These support ships will deliver fuel and other vital supplies to vessels at sea," Qualtrough said, "ensuring our women and men of the Canadian Armed Forces are able to carry out their missions for decades to come."

The navy has been without a permanent support ship since retiring its last two in 2015 because of an unexpected fire and excessive corrosion, and is currently relying on a converted civilian vessel to fill the gap.

The first new vessel was originally supposed to be delivered in 2019, but the project has been plagued with delays.

Even as work is set to begin, however, Qualtrough conceded later that the government still doesn't have a concrete estimate of how much the two joint support ships are going to cost.

"It's too early to speculate on what the (support ships) will ultimately cost," she said.

The previous Conservative government set a budget of $2.3 billion for the vessels back in 2011, but that number has been under review for nearly two years.

The parliamentary budget office pegged the full cost of two support ships back in 2013 at $4.13 billion, while the government's new defence investment plan, released this week, said it could cost up to $4.99 billion.

"There are a lot of things happening on (the support ships)," said Andre Fillion, head of military procurement at Public Services and Procurement Canada.

"The acquisition of long lead items, the start of the (early work) and also a lot of engineering work."

Seaspan vice-president Tim Page told The Canadian Press that the shipbuilder is in negotiations with the government, but remains committed to delivering the support ships to the navy.

Starting work early is a reasonable solution to what would otherwise be a troublesome lull in work at Seaspan, said defence analyst David Perry of the Canadian Global Affairs Institute.

But the government still doesn't have an approved design [emphasis added] for the support ships, he said, and the whole point of the federal government's multibillion-dollar shipbuilding strategy was to prevent such production gaps.

"It's a solution to an immediate problem," Perry said, "but it's not by any means an ideal scenario."

 The government is hoping that advance work will shave about a year off the expected delivery time for the first support vessel, which is currently slated to hit the water in 2023.

It will also ensure Seaspan continues to have work for its employees during what would otherwise be a dead zone between construction of the last of three coast guard fisheries vessels and a new coast guard ocean science ship...

 Even as work is set to begin, however, Qualtrough conceded later that the government still doesn't have a concrete estimate of how much the two joint support ships are going to cost.

"It's too early to speculate on what the (support ships) will ultimately cost," she said.

The previous Conservative government set a budget of $2.3 billion for the vessels back in 2011, but that number has been under review for nearly two years.

The parliamentary budget office pegged the full cost of two support ships back in 2013 at $4.13 billion, while the government's new defence investment plan, released this week, said it could cost up to $4.99 billion...
https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/cost-questions-abound-as-work-set-to-start-on-navy-s-new-support-ships-1.3954033

Absurd build-in-Canada cost.

Tweet from RUSI Nova Scotia, May 31:

Quote
@RUSI_NS

RUSI(NS)
Each JSS has 123 blocks. Under "early block build" (EBB) 26 blocks/ship for total 52 to be built.  Of low complexity (basically boxes w minor outfitting as piping) so not to deduce that after EBB ea JSS will be 20% built
...
https://twitter.com/RUSI_NS/status/1002332123460751361

This is what government's just released "Defence Capabilities Blueprint" say about JSS:

Quote
...
Objective

To deliver two Joint Support Ships [only, emphasis added] to replace the the Royal Canadian Navy’s Auxiliary Oiler Replenishment vessels that have reached the end of their service. The capabilities required of the Joint Support Ships are crucial to the Royal Canadian Navy. These new Protectueur-class ships will enable a Naval Task Group to remain at sea for extended periods of time. These vessels will provide core replensihment capabilities, plus added capacity for limited sealift and limited support to operations ashore.

Requirements

The JSS will provide at-sea support to a deployed Canadian Naval Task Group, limited sealift and support to operations ashore. In June 2013, Canada selected the German Berlin Class design as the basis for the JSS. The JSS's capabilities will underpin Canada’s ability to deploy and sustain Canada’s naval forces worldwide for extended periods. The JSS will have a crew of up to 199 personnel plus its air detachment and mission personnel for a total of 239 onboard accommodations. The JSS will be capable of 20+ kts, with a range of 10800 nautical miles with ice edge capability to access Nanisivik Naval Facility in the summer navigation season. Its two dual-purpose RAS stations will provide 29 days support to a Canadian Naval Task Group for both fuel and supplies. The JSS will carry two organic CH 148 Cyclone maritime helicopters and will also provide second level maintenance capabilities for the Naval Task Group’s helicopters. It will be fitted with self-protection systems such as Degaussing, NIXIE torpedo decoy, Chemical Biological Radiological Nuclear, Close-In Weapons Systems and Naval Remote Weapons System. The JSS medical facilites will include a NATO Role 2E capabilities to support an array of operations including humanitarian assistance and disaster relief. The JSS basic Command, Control, Communications, Computer and Intelligence systems will contribute to the maritime domain awareness. The JSS will also have robust cargo transfer systems for mission payloads to include cranes and a sea to shore connector system.

Funding Ranges

$1 billion to 4.99 billion

Anticipated Timeline (Fiscal Year)

    Past Start Options Anaysis
    Past Start Definition
    2019 to 2020 Start Implementation
    2022 to 2023 Initial Delivery
    2023 to 2024 Final Delivery
http://dgpaapp.forces.gc.ca/en/defence-capabilities-blueprint/project-details.asp?id=949

Mark
Ottawa

Ça explique, mais ça n'excuse pas.