Author Topic: RCMP officers told not to wear symbol depicting ‘thin blue line’  (Read 10685 times)

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Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: RCMP officers told not to wear symbol depicting ‘thin blue line’
« Reply #175 on: October 17, 2020, 10:48:03 »
I bet a strategic corporal came up with this sucker




https://calgaryherald.com/news/local-news/unbelievably-inappropriate-calgary-police-prohibit-distribution-of-offensive-coin


When did the Calgary police start using Kodiak Defence WK180's?
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Offline Brihard

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Re: RCMP officers told not to wear symbol depicting ‘thin blue line’
« Reply #176 on: October 17, 2020, 10:53:37 »
A scenario akin to Hillier's "strategic corporal".

Indeed. Very routinely, Cst and Cpls (who aren't paid much more) are making real time operational decisions and taking on responsibilities that CAF would shiver in fear at the prospect of being entrusted to anything less than a Capt or Maj. When it's four guys on shift in a mid sized town town and something serious brews up over night, the five year Cst who's senior and acting as the Cpl that night might have to make some important and fast calls if something goes down. That's to say nothing of the responsibility any of us could end up taking on in serious and complex investigations. I've worked on stuff in the past year where I've been astounded that it's me or in some cases another relatively junior Cst in the chair doing stuff that will have real significance in court on a major matter.

The whole running into danger is, again, just one aspect of the job, and not the bulk of it. the degree of responsibility police routinely have to take on can be very significant, and dwarfs the consequence of what many managers in other professions would face. All the moreso outside a major urban force. In a lot of RCMP detachments across the country, they can go weeks where the Cpl or Sgt is on leave, and there's a constable running all of the operational policing for hours in every direction, as well as running the actual detachment itself and everything that comes with that.
Pacificsm is doctrine fostered by a delusional minority and by the media, which holds forth the proposition it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

Offline mariomike

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Re: RCMP officers told not to wear symbol depicting ‘thin blue line’
« Reply #177 on: October 17, 2020, 11:20:48 »
Bear in mind that for most police, the majority of their career is spent 'operational', doing the job for real, not in a training or institutional setting.

Forty hours a week, year after year, responding to 9-1-1 calls must have a cumulative effect on some ( most? ) people.

At least we were on the couch, and had 60 seconds of "chute time" to get the doors up and wheels rolling.

Even harder for the police because, being mobile, they have to immediately drop it into gear and hit the accelerator.

In any war, there are two tremendous tasks. That of the combat troops is to fight the enemy. That of the supply troops is to furnish all the material to insure victory. The faster and farther the combat troops advance against the foe, the greater becomes the battle of supply. EISENHOWER

Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: RCMP officers told not to wear symbol depicting ‘thin blue line’
« Reply #178 on: October 17, 2020, 11:24:58 »
I bet a strategic corporal came up with this sucker




https://calgaryherald.com/news/local-news/unbelievably-inappropriate-calgary-police-prohibit-distribution-of-offensive-coin


When did the Calgary police start using Kodiak Defence WK180's?

 :rofl:
“To stand on the firing parapet and expose yourself to danger; to stand and fight a thousand miles from home when you're all alone and outnumbered and probably beaten; to spit on your hands and lower the pike; to stand fast over the body of Leonidas the King; to be rear guard at Kunu-Ri; to stand and be still to the Birkenhead Drill; these are not rational acts. They are often merely necessary.”
— Jerry Pournelle —

Offline Humphrey Bogart

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In exceptionally few circumstances will someone's job put them over and over and over again into situations where people will make such complaints vexatiously or maliciously, nor where the court of public opinion will pursue the matter so belligerently. It's widely known at this point that anyone can select part of a video of a rough arrest (and bad choices ont he part of the suspect often necessitate those), get that video online, make a false claim and name the officer, and it's off to the races. There is no accountability for this. People who make false claims about excessive force, or who dox officers or what have you don't face any repercussions. So I would say it's not at all analogous to Joe from the auto body shop who gets in a drunken brawl on the weekend, eats an assault charge, and gets his name in the small town newspaper. Recognize also that in the case of criminal charges, generally a reasonably high threshold has already been met for charges to be laid. There is not such threshold for the sorts of complaints and public allegations RedFive is talking about.

I've been on the wrong end of a number of public complaints - for racism, for excessive force, for sexual assault in a cell block, for 'unlawful detention' (that one was truly hilarious) and so on and so forth. All but one were utter BS, and the one that I ate I absolutely deserved- not paying enough attention at night, thought I had time at an intersection, and hit the intersection as the light went red. Happened to be in front of an extremely prolific public complainer who had a dash cam. Completely my fault and I owned it. All of the others complaints and the lawsuit I was subjected to were BS and were ruled that way... But absolutely nothing tested those complaints for even so much as plausibility before they were fully pursued. Fortunately I've not been on the wrong end of a 'name and shame', but guys I know have, for situations where they did nothing wrong and where someone is trying to dodge or minimize their own accountability for the thing that got them arrested in the first place.

Now, you can argue, fairly, that in these cases the accountability mechanisms worked, and that facts resulted in the proper decision. I'm good with that. The point I'm making, taking this back to questions of accountability and compensation, is that this is an absolutely constant aspect of the job for anyone working front line. The only protection we have from those who use the system maliciously is due process- disciplinary hearings where we can have counsel, the right to remain silent on allegations we're confronted with, support provided by the union... Being constantly subjected to that degree of scrutiny and - frankly - malice and hatred - takes a toll and forms part of the working conditions that result in police being paid comparatively well. Few other people are forced to confront the opposition that comes when your day to day job is holding people accountable for their poor choices.

It's fine. We need to have this degree of accountability - although some things could definitely be tightened up. But it's not something many other people are subject to, nor something that I think many people are really able to grasp as a day to day reality.

Really?  There are plenty of jobs where people are subjected to tonnes of stress and subjected to numerous complaints.  Teachers, Doctors, Nurses, Bankers, Politicans, basically anyone in the service industry.

If it's a job that serves the public, you're subject to oversight and accountability for your actions.  Unlike Police though, others don't have qualified immunity. 

My wife is a Banker and is subjected to verbal intimidation, name calling, harassment, etc. Almost daily and like Cops, nobody likes Bankers. Try telling someone who is suicidal and on the brink of insolvency that you won't refinance their debts for them even though you may personally want to because you feel compassion for that person but the Underwriter, who is a faceless person, flat out says no.  Not easy but again it comes with the territory of the job.

Even better, part of her compensation package is based on customer satisfaction.  Imagine if police compensation was based on general public satisfaction? 

I don't feel one bit sorry for any Police Officer that gets subjected to any investigations or ends up suffering professionally as a result of those investigations.  Can't handle the heat, go get another job but I would say the same about any job really. 

Police don't have a monopoly on occupational stress.
Lately though, they do seem to have a monopoly on pity parties and an unhealthy amount of people with savior complexes in the ranks.  I could say the same about a number of people in the Military though and numerous Veterans Associations, so the brotherhood of Police Officers is not alone in thay regard.

Indeed. Very routinely, Cst and Cpls (who aren't paid much more) are making real time operational decisions and taking on responsibilities that CAF would shiver in fear at the prospect of being entrusted to anything less than a Capt or Maj. When it's four guys on shift in a mid sized town town and something serious brews up over night, the five year Cst who's senior and acting as the Cpl that night might have to make some important and fast calls if something goes down. That's to say nothing of the responsibility any of us could end up taking on in serious and complex investigations. I've worked on stuff in the past year where I've been astounded that it's me or in some cases another relatively junior Cst in the chair doing stuff that will have real significance in court on a major matter.

The whole running into danger is, again, just one aspect of the job, and not the bulk of it. the degree of responsibility police routinely have to take on can be very significant, and dwarfs the consequence of what many managers in other professions would face. All the moreso outside a major urban force. In a lot of RCMP detachments across the country, they can go weeks where the Cpl or Sgt is on leave, and there's a constable running all of the operational policing for hours in every direction, as well as running the actual detachment itself and everything that comes with that.

This is a very narrow viewpoint of what some trades in the CAF do and I would say is drawn from your own personal experience rather than a broad overview of what different trades and occupations do in the CAF. 

There are trades in the CAF where immense levels of responsibility are placed on junior members all the time.  You can come on a ship sometime and engineering personnel go through a set of Engineering Emergency Drills sometime if you want to see some stress and junior personnel trying to work through and solve what can at times be some complex problems with a ship's engineering systems.  Occasionally, these are real time and when they go sideways, you end up with a Protecteur incident.

As for compensation, I agree with you that the rank and file RCMP aren't paid enough; however, I also think certain Municipal Forces are paid way too much for what they actually do.  A constable compensated $295,000 in a year is ridiculous, that's more than some Doctors are compensated.  Well played by the Union for getting it to this point and the individual officer may pull a lot of over time but that's a massive missuse of taxpayer money and we are being robbed blind. 


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Re: RCMP officers told not to wear symbol depicting ‘thin blue line’
« Reply #180 on: October 17, 2020, 13:15:59 »
A Banker and a Cop comparison??  Get serious....



As for compensation, I agree with you that the rank and file RCMP aren't paid enough; however, I also think certain Municipal Forces are paid way too much for what they actually do.  A constable compensated $295,000 in a year is ridiculous, that's more than some Doctors are compensated.  Well played by the Union for getting it to this point and the individual officer may pull a lot of over time but that's a massive missuse of taxpayer money and we are being robbed blind. 

Actually if him/her decided to do that much overtime it probably saved money for the Govt.  There are 3 of us here with over 1000 hours overtime each....and the big ticket expenses of benefits and pension didn't cost my employer one extra cent.  Extra employee's would have....
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Re: RCMP officers told not to wear symbol depicting ‘thin blue line’
« Reply #181 on: October 17, 2020, 13:28:13 »
A Banker and a Cop comparison??  Get serious....


Actually if him/her decided to do that much overtime it probably saved money for the Govt.  There are 3 of us here with over 1000 hours overtime each....and the big ticket expenses of benefits and pension didn't cost my employer one extra cent.  Extra employee's would have....

Sidebar question: I have always wondered about that. Is your pension based upon your base pay or how much overtime you accrue?

Offline mariomike

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Re: RCMP officers told not to wear symbol depicting ‘thin blue line’
« Reply #182 on: October 17, 2020, 13:31:47 »
Is your pension based upon your base pay or how much overtime you accrue?

Ontario municipal police, firefighters and paramedics are in the Ontario Municipal Employees Retirement System ( OMERS ).

I have been an OMERS member since 1972.

Pension is based up base pay. Overtime is not included.
In any war, there are two tremendous tasks. That of the combat troops is to fight the enemy. That of the supply troops is to furnish all the material to insure victory. The faster and farther the combat troops advance against the foe, the greater becomes the battle of supply. EISENHOWER

Online SeaKingTacco

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Re: RCMP officers told not to wear symbol depicting ‘thin blue line’
« Reply #183 on: October 17, 2020, 13:33:19 »
Ontario municipal police, firefighters and paramedics are in the Ontario Municipal Employees Retirement System ( OMERS ).

I have been an OMERS member since 1972.

Pension is based up base pay. Overtime is not included.

Thanks! Like I said- always wondered about that.

Offline Humphrey Bogart

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Re: RCMP officers told not to wear symbol depicting ‘thin blue line’
« Reply #184 on: October 17, 2020, 13:35:18 »
A Banker and a Cop comparison??  Get serious....


Actually if him/her decided to do that much overtime it probably saved money for the Govt.  There are 3 of us here with over 1000 hours overtime each....and the big ticket expenses of benefits and pension didn't cost my employer one extra cent.  Extra employee's would have....

I would absolutely love to see you sit in her chair and stickhandle some of the issues.  I would bring popcorn  :rofl:

From what I can tell, there are many professions that could use more than a bit of humility.  Police and Military are both near the very top of that list.

Offline mariomike

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Re: RCMP officers told not to wear symbol depicting ‘thin blue line’
« Reply #185 on: October 17, 2020, 13:36:31 »
Ontario Corrections  and OPP, may include OT? I don't know.
In any war, there are two tremendous tasks. That of the combat troops is to fight the enemy. That of the supply troops is to furnish all the material to insure victory. The faster and farther the combat troops advance against the foe, the greater becomes the battle of supply. EISENHOWER

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Re: RCMP officers told not to wear symbol depicting ‘thin blue line’
« Reply #186 on: October 17, 2020, 13:40:13 »
They don't...I mean I pay more into it when I do overtime, but get no financial benefit from it. [base salary, 5 best years]   The Govt also doesn't pay any more for their share.
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Offline mariomike

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Re: RCMP officers told not to wear symbol depicting ‘thin blue line’
« Reply #187 on: October 17, 2020, 13:43:54 »
Regarding bank managers. In Toronto, they used to be armed. And they were required to practice at indoor gun ranges.

That came to an end when a bullet fired by a manager during a bank robbery in Toronto ricocheted off a wall and killed a teller.
In any war, there are two tremendous tasks. That of the combat troops is to fight the enemy. That of the supply troops is to furnish all the material to insure victory. The faster and farther the combat troops advance against the foe, the greater becomes the battle of supply. EISENHOWER

Offline Brihard

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Re: RCMP officers told not to wear symbol depicting ‘thin blue line’
« Reply #188 on: October 17, 2020, 13:48:54 »
The only police service I’m aware of with pensionable overtime was Winnipeg, and they recently lost that. Quite reasonably, it was deemed to be fiscally unsustainable. I don’t have a problem with that.

Humphrey Bogart: Absoluty a lot of people in CAF do carry a lot of individual responsibility for safety of systems and such, and I think the navy could stake a fair claim to this being the most the case. You’ll note that I wasn’t speaking in anything close to absolutes. But I’ll absolutely stand by what I said. If someone wants to compare police pay to the average CAF captain/Lt(N), I’m comfortable with that comparison. There will be those on both sides who face even more and plenty who face less, but in the aggregate the weight of responsibility on police officers can be immense. It’s not a lack of humility to say that, it’s objective reality, and I’m fully prepared to show receipts.
Pacificsm is doctrine fostered by a delusional minority and by the media, which holds forth the proposition it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

Offline reveng

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Re: RCMP officers told not to wear symbol depicting ‘thin blue line’
« Reply #189 on: October 17, 2020, 14:56:08 »
In certain trades & organizations, Cpls and MCpls make calls that can have immediate repercussions at both the tactical and strategic levels. Same with Capt/Lt(N). Some of these positions are compensated accordingly, and others probably should have their compensation reviewed.

With that said, I don't think it's fair to compare the average Cpl in garrison or a Capt in an Admin/Trg role to the duties of an LEO out on patrol.

I think it's clear that LEOs have a tough job with unique challenges and stressors. We put a lot of responsibility and power in their hands. They should be rigorously screened, well trained, and well paid. At the end of the day though, they are all volunteers, and are also members of society and their respective communities. As long as they remember that fact, and practice proper application of the powers we invest in them, they have my support 100%. They have a job to do, and it's keeping the rest of us safe, so we can do our jobs and collectively prosper as a civilization. I'm happy to support them and recognize that they are in fact a thin blue line, and just hope they can remember they are but one colour on a much broader societal spectrum.

Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: RCMP officers told not to wear symbol depicting ‘thin blue line’
« Reply #190 on: October 17, 2020, 17:53:35 »
I would absolutely love to see you sit in her chair and stickhandle some of the issues.  I would bring popcorn  :rofl:

From what I can tell, there are many professions that could use more than a bit of humility.  Police and Military are both near the very top of that list.

I stopped into one of the local Lifelabs the other day so they could Dracula me.

Sitting there, overhearing some of the guff handed out to the staff by a few of the sh*trats in there and wondering when/if I should step in, I was pretty certain there is no way I could do that job (without winding up with an assault conviction) :).
“To stand on the firing parapet and expose yourself to danger; to stand and fight a thousand miles from home when you're all alone and outnumbered and probably beaten; to spit on your hands and lower the pike; to stand fast over the body of Leonidas the King; to be rear guard at Kunu-Ri; to stand and be still to the Birkenhead Drill; these are not rational acts. They are often merely necessary.”
— Jerry Pournelle —

Offline reveng

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Re: RCMP officers told not to wear symbol depicting ‘thin blue line’
« Reply #191 on: October 17, 2020, 19:16:17 »
I stopped into one of the local Lifelabs the other day so they could Dracula me.

Sitting there, overhearing some of the guff handed out to the staff by a few of the sh*trats in there and wondering when/if I should step in, I was pretty certain there is no way I could do that job (without winding up with an assault conviction) :).

When I was deciding on a second career, I looked at going back to school to become a PA. Then I thought about the people I'd actually have to deal with, and promptly ruled out anything in healthcare...sounds like I made a good call. It seems like anything that involves the public is more stress than it's worth. Perhaps this is less a reflection on the occupations that deal with the public, and more a reflection on the public itself.

Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: RCMP officers told not to wear symbol depicting ‘thin blue line’
« Reply #192 on: October 17, 2020, 19:37:07 »
When I was deciding on a second career, I looked at going back to school to become a PA. Then I thought about the people I'd actually have to deal with, and promptly ruled out anything in healthcare...sounds like I made a good call. It seems like anything that involves the public is more stress than it's worth. Perhaps this is less a reflection on the occupations that deal with the public, and more a reflection on the public itself.

They did a great job talking these idiots down. I was thinking of suggesting that they hire security guards for staff protection.

Anyone know Charlie Brown? (seriously, that's the name of their CEO :) ) https://www.lifelabs.com/leadership/charles-brown/#:~:text=Charles%20Brown%20is%20President%20and,diagnostics%20and%20health%20technology%20provider.
“To stand on the firing parapet and expose yourself to danger; to stand and fight a thousand miles from home when you're all alone and outnumbered and probably beaten; to spit on your hands and lower the pike; to stand fast over the body of Leonidas the King; to be rear guard at Kunu-Ri; to stand and be still to the Birkenhead Drill; these are not rational acts. They are often merely necessary.”
— Jerry Pournelle —

Offline Navy_Pete

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Re: RCMP officers told not to wear symbol depicting ‘thin blue line’
« Reply #193 on: October 18, 2020, 11:26:49 »
When I was deciding on a second career, I looked at going back to school to become a PA. Then I thought about the people I'd actually have to deal with, and promptly ruled out anything in healthcare...sounds like I made a good call. It seems like anything that involves the public is more stress than it's worth. Perhaps this is less a reflection on the occupations that deal with the public, and more a reflection on the public itself.

I think everyone should work a retail job early on in life; the display of awful human behaviour they regularly deal with is pretty incredible.People can be especially terrible if they feel a sense of superiority over whoever they are dealing with.

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Re: RCMP officers told not to wear symbol depicting ‘thin blue line’
« Reply #194 on: October 18, 2020, 11:41:27 »
I think everyone should work a retail job early on in life; the display of awful human behaviour they regularly deal with is pretty incredible.People can be especially terrible if they feel a sense of superiority over whoever they are dealing with.

Oh man, no kidding. Not all bad though, I helped Rick Hillier find an air compressor once when I was a hardware kid at Canadian Tire.
Pacificsm is doctrine fostered by a delusional minority and by the media, which holds forth the proposition it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

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Re: RCMP officers told not to wear symbol depicting ‘thin blue line’
« Reply #195 on: October 18, 2020, 11:43:34 »
I think everyone should work a retail job early on in life; the display of awful human behaviour they regularly deal with is pretty incredible.People can be especially terrible if they feel a sense of superiority over whoever they are dealing with.

Or being sent into people's homes. It sounds corny, but I believe good customer service starts with a smile and a shoe shine.
In any war, there are two tremendous tasks. That of the combat troops is to fight the enemy. That of the supply troops is to furnish all the material to insure victory. The faster and farther the combat troops advance against the foe, the greater becomes the battle of supply. EISENHOWER

Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: RCMP officers told not to wear symbol depicting ‘thin blue line’
« Reply #196 on: October 18, 2020, 12:05:44 »
Or being sent into people's homes. It sounds corny, but I believe good customer service starts with a smile and a shoe shine.

Speaking of which, incidents like this are insanely complex and tragic, but seem to be more prevalent these Crazy COVID days. I don't envy the cops that have to take on these assignments, at all:

Family of woman killed by police with plastic bullets tried for years to get help

https://www.timescolonist.com/news/local/family-of-woman-killed-by-police-with-plastic-bullets-tried-for-years-to-get-help-1.24222553
“To stand on the firing parapet and expose yourself to danger; to stand and fight a thousand miles from home when you're all alone and outnumbered and probably beaten; to spit on your hands and lower the pike; to stand fast over the body of Leonidas the King; to be rear guard at Kunu-Ri; to stand and be still to the Birkenhead Drill; these are not rational acts. They are often merely necessary.”
— Jerry Pournelle —

Offline Eaglelord17

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Re: RCMP officers told not to wear symbol depicting ‘thin blue line’
« Reply #197 on: October 18, 2020, 17:53:22 »
Captain  PI 10  $8718 a month.   And lots of rungs on that ladder yet...

Ok vs military police officer getting paid about 5616$ a month? Apples and apples.

I am not against the police being paid fairly. To me the RCMP wages seem very reasonable for what the job is. I think everywhere else should be falling in line along the same wages. That would mean better gear for more people (as there is more money to be dispersed for equipment), more police officers (making the job safer), and potentially saving the tax payers money if they don't need to hire more. I am not arguing OT, as OT is something your choosing to earn, though if there is too much OT it means they need to hire more officers not pay the few they have more.

Offline mariomike

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Re: RCMP officers told not to wear symbol depicting ‘thin blue line’
« Reply #198 on: October 18, 2020, 17:58:52 »
To me the RCMP wages seem very reasonable for what the job is. I think everywhere else should be falling in line along the same wages.

While unionization is new for the RCMP, police collective bargaining has been in place in Canada for years. So it should be no surprise that salaries have gone up.

Maybe instead of some people saying, "I don't have it, so they shouldn't either." They could ask, "They have it – why don't I?"

It's not a race to the bottom.
In any war, there are two tremendous tasks. That of the combat troops is to fight the enemy. That of the supply troops is to furnish all the material to insure victory. The faster and farther the combat troops advance against the foe, the greater becomes the battle of supply. EISENHOWER

Offline Humphrey Bogart

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Re: RCMP officers told not to wear symbol depicting ‘thin blue line’
« Reply #199 on: October 18, 2020, 18:16:35 »
The only police service I’m aware of with pensionable overtime was Winnipeg, and they recently lost that. Quite reasonably, it was deemed to be fiscally unsustainable. I don’t have a problem with that.

Humphrey Bogart: Absoluty a lot of people in CAF do carry a lot of individual responsibility for safety of systems and such, and I think the navy could stake a fair claim to this being the most the case. You’ll note that I wasn’t speaking in anything close to absolutes. But I’ll absolutely stand by what I said. If someone wants to compare police pay to the average CAF captain/Lt(N), I’m comfortable with that comparison. There will be those on both sides who face even more and plenty who face less, but in the aggregate the weight of responsibility on police officers can be immense. It’s not a lack of humility to say that, it’s objective reality, and I’m fully prepared to show receipts.

I think that's reasonable Brihard, I also think the fact that all Police Officers are badged and hold Peace Officer Status makes them share far more in common with Commissioned Officers than Non-Commissioned Members of the CAF in that they have Authority far and above what a Non-Commissioned Member below the rank of Warrant Officer would have. 

I also think the fact that Police Officers hold Peace Officer Status means they should be held to a far higher level of accountability than someone who doesn't hold that status.  Ditto for Commissioned Officers in the CAF, though we have seen in both cases that this isn't always the case but it should be. 

As for salaries, I absolutely believe the RCMP needs to be paid more but I'm less convinced that any Police Officer holding an entry level rank should be making close to $300k annually, overtime or not.

Others have pointed out that this is a result of nickle and diming on hiring more Officers to get out of pension contributions and benefits but I don't think that explains it completely.  The Unions have played a part in this for sure but my gut feeling is this is going to lead to growth of Privatized Security Firms in the long term. 

Many Private Firms are already providing these services and I can see in the future, Police Forces pricing themselves out of the game.