Author Topic: Type 31 Frigate  (Read 1662 times)

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Offline tomahawk6

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Type 31 Frigate
« on: August 27, 2019, 11:26:08 »

Offline Spencer100

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Re: Type 31 Frigate
« Reply #1 on: August 27, 2019, 11:56:21 »
So it looks like the Arrowhead. 

The US in the middle of FFGX.  The T-31e is too late. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FFG(X)

Offline Spencer100

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Re: Type 31 Frigate
« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2019, 12:03:10 »

Offline Spencer100

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Re: Type 31 Frigate
« Reply #3 on: August 27, 2019, 12:06:36 »
Plus the Arrowhead in focus

https://www.savetheroyalnavy.org/in-focus-the-arrowhead-140-type-31e-frigate-candidate/

The largest one and not to far off the T-26.

Plus a similar design offered to Canada for CSC. Won by the T-26

Offline tomahawk6

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Re: Type 31 Frigate
« Reply #4 on: August 27, 2019, 12:12:20 »
Some of our best frigates like the Perry class were relatively inexpensive which meant we could buy more.

Offline Spencer100

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Re: Type 31 Frigate
« Reply #5 on: August 27, 2019, 12:17:52 »
Some of our best frigates like the Perry class were relatively inexpensive which meant we could buy more.

The USN is in the middle of a program to buy 20 FFGX

Austal with the Independence Class
Fincantieri with the Italian FREMM
General Dynamics with the Spanish F100
HHI with the all American coast guard NSC 

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Re: Type 31 Frigate
« Reply #6 on: August 27, 2019, 13:50:20 »
For some background, here is the link to the 2016 report from Sir John Parker on the UK version of NSS; he goes into detail on why the type 31 needs to be designed with export in mind.  Haven't read it recently, but remember it from a few years ago as being quite good.  His point was that UK requirements weren't enough to be self-sustaining, so they need to assume they will be exported, which really changes the basic requirements and the fundamental design.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/uk-national-shipbuilding-strategy-an-independent-report

There are probably more than a few countries that would be interested in buying only one or two if they could customize it, but also benefits the RN if there are more users of the same hull and non-sexy bits like the propulsion plant. Bit past the cycle for CAN, US and AUS but there are probably some South American and Asian countries that this would fit the bill for.

That was all before Brexit, so will be interesting to see how that impacts things like this. Great for cheaper labour when the pound plummets, but probably offset by all the tarriffs on the supply chain for things being imported (that previously would have been tarriff free under the EU common market). They don't have the volume to have separate plants in the UK, so could be significant.

Offline Spencer100

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Re: Type 31 Frigate
« Reply #8 on: September 12, 2019, 10:20:55 »
Did some research, the cost tag does not include the weapons & sensors; those will be GFE.  Also, the MoD will be responsible for any currency/import fees, so expect the cost to jump up if they go for a no-deal Brexit. The GBP has already shed a fair bit of value, so anything brought in from outside the UK will be quite a bit more and also get to enjoy the schedule issues with customs.

MoD recognises the £250M price cap for Royal Navy Type 31e Frigate is unworkable
https://www.savetheroyalnavy.org/mod-recognises-the-250m-price-cap-for-royal-navy-type-31e-frigate-is-unworkable/

Offline Chris Pook

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Re: Type 31 Frigate
« Reply #9 on: September 12, 2019, 11:22:07 »
We seem to end up arguing about how many guns it takes to define a warship.

As we move up the scale from OPVs, through Corvettes, Frigates, Destroyers, (Cruisers) etc.  the argument is one of how much is enough and the response is always that there is never enough.  There can always be more.

Her Majesty needs hulls because one hull can only be in one place at a time.  Those hulls need to do lots of different jobs.  Not all those jobs prompt violent responses from the locals.  Sometimes they welcome the help.

I am a proponent of separating the hull from the crew and the weapons fit and supplying crew and weapons to meet the mission requirements.  In 400 years of Royal Navy tradition this has been the standard more often than not.   Hulls have been acquired from various sources, including the enemy, and then outfitted with what was available and tasked accordingly.  Armed yachts, trawlers and merchantmen all come to mind.

I see no reason not to separate the cost of the hull from the cost of supplying the weapons (and sensors) and the cost of supplying a crew. 

The cost of the hull, weapons, sensors, and crew always varies from mission to mission.

How many times have we seen new ammunition purchased, new guns and missiles bolted on, army UAS and AD operators attached, new sensors purchased, as UORs to meet the mission requirements?

The hull, the ship proper, should be priced separately.  And that is true for the Type 31s, the CSCs, the AOPSs, subs and Big Honking Ships.

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Offline Colin P

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Re: Type 31 Frigate
« Reply #10 on: September 12, 2019, 12:22:03 »
It would be nice for a international standard for pricing, so one knows if we are comparing apples with apples

Offline tomahawk6

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Re: Type 31 Frigate
« Reply #11 on: September 12, 2019, 14:40:25 »
Babcock has won the bid for the Arrowhead class of frigates. There might be an international market for these frigates. It will have a range of 9000 nm, and displace 5700t.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7455745/Royal-Navys-new-250-million-Arrowhead-140-warships.html
« Last Edit: September 12, 2019, 17:43:38 by tomahawk6 »

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Re: Type 31 Frigate
« Reply #12 on: September 12, 2019, 15:14:53 »
On the Save the Royal Navy page, they write this is basically a slightly larger version of the Iver Hutfeldt frigate and it will come in at about 6200 tons full load. There are no plans to install the Mk 41 launcher, but they will keep the space available on the foredeck and immediately below in case things change.
Interestingly the combat management system might not be the same as on the T26 and T 45. 


They are also adding extra space for 2 more 11m boats. The RM will place as many as 60 pers on one these ships when needed. The help deck can land a Chinook and the ship hangar can accommodate 1xCommando Merlin.

The RN is slowly regenerating itself into a powerful force.
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Offline CBH99

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Re: Type 31 Frigate
« Reply #13 on: September 12, 2019, 15:18:06 »
Even if the cost is double the goal, that’s still a great deal.   Glad someone is finally realizing that numbers matter, and you don’t need state of the art “can do everything” all the time.  Sometimes just having a Hull with some decent weapknrh is more than enough to settle things down. 
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Offline MarkOttawa

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Re: Type 31 Frigate
« Reply #14 on: September 12, 2019, 15:37:16 »
My goodness--Royal Navy plans to have all five Type 31e frigates delivered before RCN likely to receive first Canadian Surface Combatant:

Quote
...
The first – unnamed – ship will be laid down in just two years’ time and launched in 2023, with the entire class completed by 2027, all to a total budget of £1.25bn – £250m per ship.

The five ships will be built in segments and assembled at Babcock’s yard in Rosyth – repeating the process of the Queen Elizabeth-class carriers.


https://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/news-and-latest-activity/news/2019/september/12/190912-t31-design

As for CSC, who knows about timeline these days:

Quote
...
4. Implementation

    Implementation project approval: Early 2020s
    Construction contract award: Early 2020s
    First delivery: Mid 2020s

* Milestones will be updated based on approval from Executive Governance...
https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/services/procurement/canadian-surface-combatant.html

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Offline Underway

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Re: Type 31 Frigate
« Reply #15 on: September 12, 2019, 16:25:52 »
My goodness--Royal Navy plans to have all five Type 31e frigates delivered before RCN likely to receive first Canadian Surface Combatant:

There's good reason for that.  Their combat systems are meagre, they have no rafting for their engines etc... so are very noisy.  There are not really any modifications to the design for the UK from the Danish version.  The builder isn't really responsible for any combat systems as these will be supplied later by the RN.  But most importantly the UK uses a number of different yards to build blocks and brings them together into megablocks at one yard, instead of what Irving is doing which is building only a few blocks at one time.  Multiple yards building blocks at the same time has a very high impact on the deliverability timelines.

Offline MarkOttawa

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Re: Type 31 Frigate
« Reply #16 on: September 12, 2019, 19:26:09 »
From comprehensive post at Thin Pinstriiped Line:
Quote
...
 There is also a challenge around the fit of the vessel and the decision on how much to invest in it. At present little is known about what the ships will be armed with, and whether a fairly austere ‘fitted for but not with’ approach occurs, or if the RN will invest more heavily in an impressive range of capability for the ships. It is also not clear whether there is additional funding for equipping the ships as a result of the 2019 Spending Review increase to the Defence budget either.

On paper the design offers significant room for investment, providing a wide range of capabilities and options for service. The balancing act though is on deciding how much to invest in the hull and the class as a whole.

For instance, if the RN is serious about the aim to secure export orders and knows that the first batch of hulls is likely to be sold on within a few years of entering service, does it want to invest finite resources in them in providing a full range of missiles, defensive capability and helicopters etc, or does it hold off and keep them relatively austerely fitted, and use them primarily in the patrol role?

The former option helps ensure the ship can remain credible (and sought after) for coalition operations and be able to hold its own when working solo. But, this represents a potentially significant investment of time and money to fit the ship with these capabilities, and to run the costly integration trials needed to be certain it can work effectively. This investment could arguably be lost if the ship is then sold shortly afterwards, and the RN then has to start again by fitting fixtures and weapons into the replacement vessel.

But, if the RN keeps them austerely fitted in order to keep costs down, will they seem too weak and not capable enough to be seen as credible contenders on the export market as direct sales, and will other navies opt for a large OPV or heavily armed export design from another builder instead (for example the F100 series).

Striking a balancing act between investing sufficiently to keep the ships operationally credible for their intended role, while being able to make them credible for export, but at the same time not being too costly is going to be a real challenge for the RN and industry to meet...
https://thinpinstripedline.blogspot.com/2019/09/a-fantastic-future-frigate-thoughts-on.html

Plus a post from 2015:

Quote
RCN’s Planned Canadian Surface Combatant: Maybe We Could Learn From Danes Too
https://mark3ds.wordpress.com/2015/03/06/mark-collins-rcns-planned-canadian-surface-combatant-maybe-we-could-learn-from-danes-too/

Mark
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« Last Edit: September 12, 2019, 19:32:35 by MarkOttawa »
Ça explique, mais ça n'excuse pas.

Offline tomahawk6

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Re: Type 31 Frigate
« Reply #17 on: September 12, 2019, 19:41:46 »
I would expect armament to include a deck gun, SAM capability , a SSM weapon and ASW. Perry class frigates are smaller than the arrowhead and have a robust armament.

http://www.military-today.com/navy/oliver_hazard_perry_class.htm


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Re: Type 31 Frigate
« Reply #18 on: Today at 12:26:46 »
Interesting they are adding two new gun classes to the fleet with the Type 31.Note the 57mm.  https://www.savetheroyalnavy.org/more-details-of-the-royal-navys-type-31-frigate-emerge/
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Offline Spencer100

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Re: Type 31 Frigate
« Reply #19 on: Today at 12:33:32 »
Cool superfiring 40mm and 57mm in the A and B position.  No RAM as in one pic.

Offline Underway

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Re: Type 31 Frigate
« Reply #20 on: Today at 18:49:28 »
Cool superfiring 40mm and 57mm in the A and B position.  No RAM as in one pic.

Ooooh 3P ammunition.  That stuff is irritating and amazing at the same time.  Canada's 57mm uses that right now as well.

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Re: Type 31 Frigate
« Reply #21 on: Today at 19:59:51 »
Ooooh 3P ammunition.  That stuff is irritating and amazing at the same time.  Canada's 57mm uses that right now as well.

Maybe we can sell them some used 57’s from the Halifax’s as they come off line in 8-10yrs. Lord knows that we won’t put them on the AOPS’s