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Offline Teager

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Free Education
« on: February 08, 2017, 20:29:46 »
So in Ontario starting September 2017 tuition is free for those in families or are adults that make less than $50k. See article for details.

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Mature students and adult learners with family incomes of less than $50,000 will qualify for free tuition, and would also be eligible toward child care costs.

http://www.newkerala.com/news/fullnews-226274.html

I wonder if this will have any impact on benefits from SISIP and VACs eduction programs for those that fit under the $50k income. May also have an impact on free education for all vets that's in the mandate letter. Although this is just Ontario not sure on costs covered by other provinces.

Offline RobA

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Re: Free Education
« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2017, 12:52:16 »
Looks like the budget released yesterday checked this box, but it appears to be some stipulations. It looks like a program for ALL vets, not just injured, and as such you need some minimum time.

Anyone with 6 years qualifies for $40k worth (total) and 12 years $80k

Offline Brihard

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Re: Free Education
« Reply #2 on: March 23, 2017, 13:03:42 »
Looks like the budget released yesterday checked this box, but it appears to be some stipulations. It looks like a program for ALL vets, not just injured, and as such you need some minimum time.

Anyone with 6 years qualifies for $40k worth (total) and 12 years $80k

I'm curious if cumulative reserve service will count as "qualifying" service?

Unanticipated consequence: there's gonna be an exodus coming. A lot of guys who can suddenly get a four year degree paid for will bail.

Unanticipated hiccup: it says for veterans "honorably released". Will this exclude regs who CT to the reserves? If so, we're going to lose a minor but meaningful source of good reservists.
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Re: Free Education
« Reply #3 on: March 23, 2017, 13:12:56 »
I agree it'd be a hiccup until released veterans have completed their education = a 4 year gap year. Then they could choose to reapply to the PRes, easier to do from the SHR.
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Offline George Wallace

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Re: Free Education
« Reply #4 on: March 23, 2017, 13:21:04 »
I agree it'd be a hiccup until released veterans have completed their education = a 4 year gap year. Then they could choose to reapply to the PRes, easier to do from the SHR.

Not really.  If the Release from the Reg Force is registered as such, a Release, then there should be no problem with the former Reg Force member collecting those benefits and joining a PRes unit right away.  They would, however, not be able to claim the same Education Reimbursement as a Reservist can, as that may be constituted as "Double Dipping" and perhaps fraud; not that they would need to do so any way.

As for PRes members, being credited at 1/4 time for Class A it would take almost a decade to earn the lowest benefits.  Class B and Class C would likely be treated the same as a Reg Force member.
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Offline Lightguns

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Re: Free Education
« Reply #5 on: March 23, 2017, 14:12:57 »
Looks like the budget released yesterday checked this box, but it appears to be some stipulations. It looks like a program for ALL vets, not just injured, and as such you need some minimum time.

Anyone with 6 years qualifies for $40k worth (total) and 12 years $80k

Anything out on this yet?  I am an pre NVC vet with 13% assessment.  34 years service.
Done, 34 years, 43 days complete, got's me damn pension!

Offline Kokanee

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Re: Free Education
« Reply #6 on: March 23, 2017, 14:43:03 »
"A NEW VETERANS’ EDUCATION AND TRAINING BENEFIT

After putting themselves in harm’s way in service to our country, our women and men in uniform deserve a successful transition to civilian life. A smooth transition is vital for the overall well-being of our veterans and their families. To help, Budget 2017 proposes to amend legislation to create a new Education and Training Benefit. In short, this benefit would provide more money for veterans to go to college, university or a technical school after they complete their service, through an investment of $133.9 million over six years, starting in 2016–17, and $10.3 million per year ongoing. The new program would begin in April 2018 for veterans honourably released on or after April 1, 2006. Veterans with 6 years of eligible service would be entitled to up to $40,000 of benefits, while veterans with 12 years of eligible service would be entitled to up to $80,000 of benefits."

Source: https://www.scribd.com/document/342740440/Budget-2017-En#
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Offline Teager

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Re: Free Education
« Reply #7 on: March 23, 2017, 20:16:59 »
I wonder if those on SISIP would still be entitled to this or if those on SISIP get the worst deal of $25k towards education?

Offline ballz

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Re: Free Education
« Reply #8 on: March 23, 2017, 20:44:34 »
"A NEW VETERANS’ EDUCATION AND TRAINING BENEFIT

After putting themselves in harm’s way in service to our country, our women and men in uniform deserve a successful transition to civilian life. A smooth transition is vital for the overall well-being of our veterans and their families. To help, Budget 2017 proposes to amend legislation to create a new Education and Training Benefit. In short, this benefit would provide more money for veterans to go to college, university or a technical school after they complete their service, through an investment of $133.9 million over six years, starting in 2016–17, and $10.3 million per year ongoing. The new program would begin in April 2018 for veterans honourably released on or after April 1, 2006. Veterans with 6 years of eligible service would be entitled to up to $40,000 of benefits, while veterans with 12 years of eligible service would be entitled to up to $80,000 of benefits."

Source: https://www.scribd.com/document/342740440/Budget-2017-En#

This would be gigantic.... I currently have a soldier who just had his TCAT switched to PCAT after 3 failed knee surgeries and will be medically released. He is worried if he will ever be able to work full days for the rest of his life and he's only been an infanteer which provides very little formal skills for the market place. He just downsized his house because going up and down stairs too many times was too hard on his knee.

He was talking to me about how right now his only options are 2-3 year programs, which are all community college type programs, most of them being skilled trades which he is unable to do because of his knee. If he can get a 4 year Bachelor's Degree.... even though most of them are junk... he will be much better off. I talked to him about accounting which he was interested in, but without a degree he can't become a Chartered Professional Accountant. He could do a bookkeeping/accounting program at a college right now but that limits him to about 40k a year max (after 5-10 years experience) if he works full-time.
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Offline Teager

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Re: Free Education
« Reply #9 on: March 23, 2017, 21:26:50 »
This would be gigantic.... I currently have a soldier who just had his TCAT switched to PCAT after 3 failed knee surgeries and will be medically released. He is worried if he will ever be able to work full days for the rest of his life and he's only been an infanteer which provides very little formal skills for the market place. He just downsized his house because going up and down stairs too many times was too hard on his knee.

He was talking to me about how right now his only options are 2-3 year programs, which are all community college type programs, most of them being skilled trades which he is unable to do because of his knee. If he can get a 4 year Bachelor's Degree.... even though most of them are junk... he will be much better off. I talked to him about accounting which he was interested in, but without a degree he can't become a Chartered Professional Accountant. He could do a bookkeeping/accounting program at a college right now but that limits him to about 40k a year max (after 5-10 years experience) if he works full-time.

Ballz I'm medically released and pursuing accounting. I am on SISIP thus limited to $25k max. I wanted to do university but SISIP rules say no as it's to expensive. I have just found a business administration- accounting 3 year program that would fit the budget but still would have to transfer credits to get the university degree and pay my own way.

The big question is does this Education benefit replace SISIP and the voc Rehab program that VAC has currently for medically released members? If it does does SISIP and VAC still get a say in what you take for school? For example VACs program directs the majority of veterans to college not university even if you want university. SISIP has no chance of university since the money doesn't cover the cost.

Offline Kokanee

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Re: Free Education
« Reply #10 on: March 24, 2017, 09:55:35 »
SISIP is the worst program ever, it seriously needs to be overhauled. Actually, just eliminating SISIP Voc Rehab entirely and rolling it into the VA Voc Rehab, with this money on top would be a great idea.

Even though I had an "entitlement" to $25k of funding through SISIP when I did it 2013-2015, I only ever got to spend about $10k of it because I was deemed "minimally employable" by my coordinator and he cut off further funding/plans to take additional courses and qualifications.
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Offline Teager

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Re: Free Education
« Reply #11 on: March 24, 2017, 21:54:50 »
Alright here it is all the info needed looks like the wounded get the shaft as those releasing are entitled to more of a benefit without restrictions. Doesn't matter if your Reg or Res or both the time period is the same.

http://www.parl.gc.ca/HousePublications/Publication.aspx?Language=E&Mode=1&Pub=bill&Doc=C-42_1&Parl=42&Ses=1#enH676
Here is the caveat for the injured.

Quote
5.‍7 The Minister is not permitted to pay an education and training benefit to a veteran if they are being provided with rehabilitation services or vocational assistance under Part 2, or are entitled to a Canadian Forces income support benefit under that Part.

Offline dapaterson

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Re: Free Education
« Reply #12 on: March 24, 2017, 22:11:38 »
As written, it suggests that you can't get both benefits simultaneously, but once the voc rehab is complete the education/transition benefit would be available.


And it's not saying Reg/Res time is the same - note para 5.93(a) "5.‍93 The Governor in Council may make regulations (a) prescribing how the length of service in the reserve force is to be determined for the purposes of paragraph 5.‍2(1)‍(a);"
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Offline Teager

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Re: Free Education
« Reply #13 on: March 24, 2017, 23:10:42 »
As written, it suggests that you can't get both benefits simultaneously, but once the voc rehab is complete the education/transition benefit would be available.


And it's not saying Reg/Res time is the same - note para 5.93(a) "5.‍93 The Governor in Council may make regulations (a) prescribing how the length of service in the reserve force is to be determined for the purposes of paragraph 5.‍2(1)‍(a);"


Thanks for the correction DA. Are you fairly confident that those under voc rehab would still have access to this benefit afterwards?

Offline Tcm621

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Re: Free Education
« Reply #14 on: March 24, 2017, 23:27:41 »

Thanks for the correction DA. Are you fairly confident that those under voc rehab would still have access to this benefit afterwards?
It would be 25k plus 2 years at 90%. If I could get 80 grand worth of school after it would be pretty awesome. But I could definitely see an exodus coming. The CAF would have to work pretty hard to convince me it's worth it to work through the pain with those benefits. What's the return of contribution of a 6 year corporal? Add that to 40k and I can see a bunch of people who would otherwise stay because they have no other idea what do do leaving.

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Offline dapaterson

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Re: Free Education
« Reply #15 on: March 24, 2017, 23:28:33 »

Thanks for the correction DA. Are you fairly confident that those under voc rehab would still have access to this benefit afterwards?

My read is that the prohibition applies while being provided Voc Rehab - it says nothing about after voc rehab is complete.  Depending on interpretation, that could even to be to an individual's benefit - no risk of someone charging the voc rehab costs against the education benefit; it keeps them distinct.

Or, in other words, my understanding is that once someone has completed Voc Rehab, provided they met the 6 or 12 years of service mark, they would be eligible for the new benefit on top of it.

(Of course, unintended consequences kick in here: now, instead of fighting to be retained for 10 years to get an immediate annuity, ill and injured facing release will want to be retained an additional two years to increase their educational benefits)
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Re: Free Education
« Reply #16 on: March 25, 2017, 13:27:06 »
Unanticipated hiccup: it says for veterans "honorably released". Will this exclude regs who CT to the reserves? If so, we're going to lose a minor but meaningful source of good reservists.

I haven't had a chance to look into the details yet. Has anyone been able to confirm whether a RegF member could release, collect these benefits, and serve in the PRes?

If so, it would be a win-win for both the member (part time employment) and the PRes (NCO production)


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Re: Free Education
« Reply #17 on: March 25, 2017, 20:47:31 »
I haven't had a chance to look into the details yet. Has anyone been able to confirm whether a RegF member could release, collect these benefits, and serve in the PRes?

If so, it would be a win-win for both the member (part time employment) and the PRes (NCO production)



As I read things, probably not. Obviously, it's early days still, so the policy documents have yet to be written.
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Offline Jayjaycf

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Re: Free Education
« Reply #18 on: March 25, 2017, 21:16:44 »
It says if someone got provided with voc rehab, 2 years worth of salary + 25k is already quite the deal for people who got med released. Wouldn't it be double dip to use a benefits who is the same just worded in a different manner? I know that 25k in Ontario isnt exactly going to pay a degree but it isnt pocket change either.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2017, 22:19:01 by Jayjaycf »

Offline Tcm621

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Re: Free Education
« Reply #19 on: March 25, 2017, 22:27:34 »
It says if someone got provided with voc rehab, 2 years worth of salary + 25k is already quite the deal for people who got med released. Wouldn't it be double dip to use a benefits who is the same just worded in a different manner?
They are for different reasons though. The VOC rehab is for people to retrain because they can no longer continue in their chosen profession. The new benefits are more like a thanks for your service. Why should someone be denied benefits if they are being medically released compared to someone who just feels like quiting?

 To illustrate, poor Cpl Bloggins has 13 years in the CAF. He is wounded and loses his left hand. He can no longer be employed by the CAF. Cpl Bloggins is smart and has been taking university courses. 80k could get him his law degree but he has next to nothing to live on until he finishes it. VOC rehab gets him 90% of his pay for two years but he is limited in what he can do in those two years. Does poor Bloggins have to choose between his future or his present? Does he have to try and fight for a voluntary release if he needs the 80k?

It might take a grievance or a lawsuit but I can't see them denying an across the board benefit because someone was medically released.

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Offline ballz

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Re: Free Education
« Reply #20 on: March 25, 2017, 22:37:31 »
I am curious to see what "eligible service" means as well. I will have 9.5 years pensionable when I release.... 5.5 years are post-university (paid for + salary through ROTP). If my pensionable years are all eligible service, it's literally a gravy train for me if I'm eligible for another 40k for going back and getting a second degree (not that I will be going down that route... well I sure hope I don't end up back in university, anyway).
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Re: Free Education
« Reply #21 on: March 26, 2017, 02:03:26 »
As I read things, probably not. Obviously, it's early days still, so the policy documents have yet to be written.

Well that sucks. I figured as much, but don't see why it has to be like that. I guess we will wait and see. I think most people are going to be too lazy or used to their pay to take advantage of this, but I'm glad it's coming and I really hope they don't give the medically released guys any issues about accessing it, either.

I wonder what a 12 year pension transfer value would look like for a Cpl or Sgt?  ;D


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Re: Free Education
« Reply #22 on: March 26, 2017, 13:17:39 »
I wonder what a 12 year pension transfer value would look like for a Cpl or Sgt?  ;D

Depends on a whole bunch of factors, including age, pay for the past five years, interest rates... and remember that only a portion of the transfer value come to you as a locked in RRSP amount - the rest comes to you as income taxed in your hands in the year you receive it.
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Offline Brihard

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Re: Free Education
« Reply #23 on: March 26, 2017, 14:37:30 »
I haven't had a chance to look into the details yet. Has anyone been able to confirm whether a RegF member could release, collect these benefits, and serve in the PRes?

If so, it would be a win-win for both the member (part time employment) and the PRes (NCO production)

At this time I feel comfortable confirming that as currently written, you could not:

C-42: "5.‍6 For greater certainty, the Minister is not permitted to pay an education and training benefit to a person who is a member."

"Member" is defined in current law as "an officer or a non-commissioned member of the Canadian Forces, as those terms are defined in subsection 2(1) of the National Defence Act"

When you go from Regs to PRes, that's a component transfer, not a release. You remain a member. So we will see regs who previously would have gone PRes will not do so in order to access that benefit. Now, I don't se any reason one couldn't release completely, access these benefits, then get back in- but how many will bother?

That's the first reading version of the bill. Much will remain to be done. I'm well connected with others doing advisory/advocacy work with VAC, and I will try to have this looked at. I don't know how it works for the Americans - If you can complete active duty, access GI Bill education benefits, and still train with the reserve/National Guard. I see no inherent reason this shouldn't be possible, and I think it would be better for the military institution if it is.

It's a generous benefit, and I'm very happy to see it. It will really help a lot of troops out. It will probably have a significant impact on Reg Force recruiting- join at 18 with the plan to get out at 24 or 25 and take the education. Some will, some will stay in and make a career out of it. It's just not going to do the reserve many favours. Not the end of the world if it stays as written, but it woul dbe nice if this were changed.

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Re: Free Education
« Reply #24 on: March 26, 2017, 18:38:31 »
Thanks to you both.

Hopefully you get some traction Brihard. The military was a great part time job. It's just not an ideal lifelong career for everyone. I thought I remember my US buddy telling me that they could still do the reserves once they start drawing their benefits, but can't confirm. Regardless, we run our country and can set our own rules. It would be a shame for those that still want to serve, and the military as a whole.

I'm curious to see how they will let us draw funds for "living expenses". In the US, GI bill recipients get a monthly living allowance equivalent to that paid to serving E-5 (MCpls) If it were up to me, I'd pay for school with my own money and draw the 80K as a monthly living stipend.


Offline RobA

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Re: Free Education
« Reply #25 on: March 27, 2017, 19:44:39 »
As written, it suggests that you can't get both benefits simultaneously, but once the voc rehab is complete the education/transition benefit would be available.


True, but if you get off voc rehab, you lose your earnings loss. So yeah, you have the flexibility with education, but how you feed yourself and your family for up to 4 years? And if you stay on VR for the earnings loss, you're stuck with the restrictions.

Disappointing

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Re: Free Education
« Reply #26 on: March 27, 2017, 22:54:37 »
True, but if you get off voc rehab, you lose your earnings loss. So yeah, you have the flexibility with education, but how you feed yourself and your family for up to 4 years? And if you stay on VR for the earnings loss, you're stuck with the restrictions.

Disappointing
That 80 grand seems to be for living expenses as well as school. I could see a scenario where one does 2 years of school under VOC rehab at 90% then spends half the money finishing their degree and half supplementing their pension. Hopefully, we will see this fleshed out soon and can get some concrete details.

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Offline RobA

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Re: Free Education
« Reply #27 on: March 28, 2017, 09:37:46 »
I believe it MAY cover living expenses relayed to school (I. E if you have to move, your rent would be covered) but I don't think it would act as a checking account, allowing you to buy food, or just have some spending money.

And I don't think a voc rehab plan could be open ended. I think it has to end with a marketable skill. I don't think VAC would approve a VR plan that DIDNT end up with you getting some sort of certification.  Like, I don't think you could say "I'll take two years towards a degree now, and then get out" even if you told them you then planned on finishing the degree after you get out of the VR

Offline Lightguns

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Re: Free Education
« Reply #28 on: March 28, 2017, 10:13:08 »
"A NEW VETERANS’ EDUCATION AND TRAINING BENEFIT

After putting themselves in harm’s way in service to our country, our women and men in uniform deserve a successful transition to civilian life. A smooth transition is vital for the overall well-being of our veterans and their families. To help, Budget 2017 proposes to amend legislation to create a new Education and Training Benefit. In short, this benefit would provide more money for veterans to go to college, university or a technical school after they complete their service, through an investment of $133.9 million over six years, starting in 2016–17, and $10.3 million per year ongoing. The new program would begin in April 2018 for veterans honourably released on or after April 1, 2006. Veterans with 6 years of eligible service would be entitled to up to $40,000 of benefits, while veterans with 12 years of eligible service would be entitled to up to $80,000 of benefits."

Source: https://www.scribd.com/document/342740440/Budget-2017-En#

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Re: Free Education
« Reply #29 on: March 28, 2017, 10:37:57 »
Still a year away, I like to do my DAdmin before I get too old to think coherently.......

I wouldn't get too excited about that. From my reading, it's means tested, and seems intended for those who require training in order to gain post service employment. I'm willing to be proved wrong though.
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Re: Free Education
« Reply #30 on: March 28, 2017, 16:27:38 »
My family is quite intrigued by the possibility of some college level training upon my husband's release. With 26 years of service it's been awhile since DH has been in school, though! Might be a shocker to sit with a bunch of 19 year olds. See attached Fact Sheet from the Budget. It says living expenses, tuition, books. We live in a college town so maybe, just maybe there is a way to make this work!

Offline Kokanee

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Re: Free Education
« Reply #31 on: April 03, 2017, 17:30:59 »
While the extra money is nice, hugely disappointed overall. What is really needed is a complete overhaul of how medically released members are retrained for the civilian workforce;

a) Boot manulife financial to the curb
b) kill the SISIP Voc Rehab program
c) Create newer streamlined program which combines VA Voc Rehab with this new funding envelope. Something along the lines of "four years of living expenses @ 90% of pre-release wages, plus tuition, books etc".

Retired EW 291