Author Topic: 29 Jan 2017: Multiple dead after shooting at Quebec City mosque  (Read 9749 times)

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Offline Colin P

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Re: 29 Jan 2017: Multiple dead after shooting at Quebec City mosque
« Reply #50 on: January 31, 2017, 10:18:57 »
How are Quebec gun laws different than the rest of Canada's?

There were 9 mass shootings in Canada since 2000, resulting in 46 deaths.

In comparison, there were around 330 in 2015 alone in the US.

If guns are difficult to get, it will have a dissuasive effect those prone to commiting a crime.  It will never stop violent crime entirely; there will always be people going the extra mile to get the weapons and shoot people.  But it will, imo, certainly reduce the likelihood of occurrence.

300millon+ guns in the US and somewhere between 17-30 million in Canada (no one knows for sure) and a ammunition consumption for civilian/police of around 10 billion rds a year. If guns were the driver we all be dead, in fact as ownership goes up , homicides have been going down, except for now Chicago which is bucking a decades old trend of decline. It really always comes back to social issues and even if you can fix that, there will be the occasional rare nutjob that could not be predicted. 

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Re: 29 Jan 2017: Multiple dead after shooting at Quebec City mosque
« Reply #51 on: January 31, 2017, 10:19:20 »
Terrorism, as understood in the literature of conflict studies, has five components.  First, it is an act of violence; protesting or vandalism is not terrorism.  Second, it is politically motivated; indiscriminate gang violence over turf is not terrorism.  Third it is perpetrated against a general civilian target; targeting and killing six rival gang members is not terrorism.  Fourth, it is for a public audience; stealthy poisoning a political adversary is not terrorism.  Finally, it is perpetrated to inspire a general mood of fear amongst civilian populations.

Dylann Roof was, by definition, a domestic terrorist and was cut from the same cloth as Timothy McVeigh or Anders Breivik.  I suspect, but facts will need to demonstrate, that Alexandre Bissonette will be the same brand of terrorist.
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Re: 29 Jan 2017: Multiple dead after shooting at Quebec City mosque
« Reply #52 on: January 31, 2017, 10:29:52 »
Although I may be called offside because I've participated in the debate here, just a friendly reminder:  let's try to keep this thread tracking the crime itself, as opposed to discussing gun control in a ton of detail.  There's already a thread for that, and methinks this could get heated up enough as is  ;)  Thanks for your help on this!

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Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: 29 Jan 2017: Multiple dead after shooting at Quebec City mosque
« Reply #53 on: January 31, 2017, 10:54:45 »
Terrorism, as understood in the literature of conflict studies, has five components.  First, it is an act of violence; protesting or vandalism is not terrorism.  Second, it is politically motivated; indiscriminate gang violence over turf is not terrorism.  Third it is perpetrated against a general civilian target; targeting and killing six rival gang members is not terrorism.  Fourth, it is for a public audience; stealthy poisoning a political adversary is not terrorism.  Finally, it is perpetrated to inspire a general mood of fear amongst civilian populations.

Dylann Roof was, by definition, a domestic terrorist and was cut from the same cloth as Timothy McVeigh or Anders Breivik.  I suspect, but facts will need to demonstrate, that Alexandre Bissonette will be the same brand of terrorist.

Interestingly, Infanteer, even though Dylan Roof specifically confessed to the fact that he wished, by his action, to trigger a race war in the USA, he has been prosecuted (yes Lightguns, the proper term is PROsecuted, not PERsecuted  ;D) for hate crime, not terrorism. And this is the USA where they brandy "terrorism" about pretty easily.

In the present case, there is no indication that, even though Bissonette called the police to himself on purpose, he made any statement of a "political" nature. Personally, I think in the end it will be most likely found to be a hate crime: He just acted out his own warped hatred of people different than himself. Anyone found it funny that he called the police to himself but made no such political comment if  "terrorism" was his aim?

Personally, I think that he expected to die as a result of his action, but the police didn't get there fast enough. He allegedly had time to shoot, exit to reload then go back in for second round and exit again to leave the place without the police getting there. I suspect that some of it has to do with delay in calling the police because it was so unexpected in a dorm town like the Ste-Foy suburb of Quebec City. In the US, everyone would immediately recognize shooting and cops would arrive very quickly. In Quebec City's suburb, most people's reaction was probably "What the hell is that noise?" and when called, the cops had to drive from reasonably far out (even though, in my days, the Ste-Foy cop shop was just down the road about 750 meters away. Don't know about what happened after the city mergers). I think this guy just acted on his hatred as a last act before suicide by police. When it didn't happen, he wanted to find a spot out of the way (near the Orleans Island bridge) to commit suicide but didn't have the guts to go through, so called the police in.

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Re: 29 Jan 2017: Multiple dead after shooting at Quebec City mosque
« Reply #54 on: January 31, 2017, 10:58:57 »
Interestingly, Infanteer, even though Dylan Roof specifically confessed to the fact that he wished, by his action, to trigger a race war in the USA, he has been prosecuted (yes Lightguns, the proper term is PROsecuted, not PERsecuted  ;D) for hate crime, not terrorism. And this is the USA where they brandy "terrorism" about pretty easily.

In the present case, there is no indication that, even though Bissonette called the police to himself on purpose, he made any statement of a "political" nature. Personally, I think in the end it will be most likely found to be a hate crime: He just acted out his own warped hatred of people different than himself. Anyone found it funny that he called the police to himself but made no such political comment if  "terrorism" was his aim?

These are two different things.  Terrorism is a type of violent act, whereas "hate crime" is an ethnic/religious/racial motive to a criminal action.  Some terrorism is motivated by ethnic/religious/racial hate, while some is not.
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Re: 29 Jan 2017: Multiple dead after shooting at Quebec City mosque
« Reply #55 on: January 31, 2017, 11:03:35 »
Quote from: SupersonicMax


If guns are difficult to get, it will have a dissuasive effect those prone to commiting a crime. 

Adversely someone not able to find a gun can switch to something  more deadly like a truck.

*1*  truck in France killed almost twice as many victims as mass shooting did in Canada over 17 years.
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Offline gryphonv

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Re: 29 Jan 2017: Multiple dead after shooting at Quebec City mosque
« Reply #56 on: January 31, 2017, 11:03:41 »
Terrorism or not, one thing we can agree with. This guy is going away for a long time, He'll never be released until he is a corpse.

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Re: 29 Jan 2017: Multiple dead after shooting at Quebec City mosque
« Reply #57 on: January 31, 2017, 11:42:11 »
Interestingly, Infanteer, even though Dylan Roof specifically confessed to the fact that he wished, by his action, to trigger a race war in the USA, he has been prosecuted (yes Lightguns, the proper term is PROsecuted, not PERsecuted  ;D) for hate crime, not terrorism. And this is the USA where they brandy "terrorism" about pretty easily.

In the present case, there is no indication that, even though Bissonette called the police to himself on purpose, he made any statement of a "political" nature. Personally, I think in the end it will be most likely found to be a hate crime: He just acted out his own warped hatred of people different than himself. Anyone found it funny that he called the police to himself but made no such political comment if  "terrorism" was his aim?

Personally, I think that he expected to die as a result of his action, but the police didn't get there fast enough. He allegedly had time to shoot, exit to reload then go back in for second round and exit again to leave the place without the police getting there. I suspect that some of it has to do with delay in calling the police because it was so unexpected in a dorm town like the Ste-Foy suburb of Quebec City. In the US, everyone would immediately recognize shooting and cops would arrive very quickly. In Quebec City's suburb, most people's reaction was probably "What the hell is that noise?" and when called, the cops had to drive from reasonably far out (even though, in my days, the Ste-Foy cop shop was just down the road about 750 meters away. Don't know about what happened after the city mergers). I think this guy just acted on his hatred as a last act before suicide by police. When it didn't happen, he wanted to find a spot out of the way (near the Orleans Island bridge) to commit suicide but didn't have the guts to go through, so called the police in.

I intended the word I used.

I tend to agree with you but with one proviso; he realized on his second entry that this wasn't a video game and loss his hate rather fast and ran away.  I think he is just a man-child without even the courage of his warped convictions.  Hate can make you do insane things, witnessing those insane things can quickly dissipate the hate.

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« Last Edit: January 31, 2017, 11:44:54 by Lightguns »
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Re: 29 Jan 2017: Multiple dead after shooting at Quebec City mosque
« Reply #58 on: January 31, 2017, 13:48:31 »
Hate can make you do insane things, witnessing those insane things can quickly dissipate the hate.

I'm not a criminal defence attorney, but I wonder if his will cop a Twinkie defence  insanity defence mental disorder defense?

< snip > it was so unexpected in a dorm town like the Ste-Foy suburb of Quebec City.

I read that, "A total of nineteen people were injured in the attack". "six people were killed and eight were wounded in the shooting"

It must have put a strain on local paramedics.

We had 21 people shot on Danzig. That's in Scarborough where shootings are not so unexpected.
Even with a much higher car count available, that was enough for the City of Toronto to declare a State of Emergency.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2017, 14:58:21 by mariomike »
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Re: 29 Jan 2017: Multiple dead after shooting at Quebec City mosque
« Reply #59 on: January 31, 2017, 14:19:54 »
I note one of the victims was a prof from his school so the motives might be mixed and perhaps personal. I would call this a reprehensible Hate Crime and not terrorism. I suspect the government is not letting an opportunity to "frame the discussion" get away from them, hence their quickness to latch onto the word. But of course I am a cynical old fart. 

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Re: 29 Jan 2017: Multiple dead after shooting at Quebec City mosque
« Reply #60 on: January 31, 2017, 14:56:51 »
If guns are difficult to get, it will have a dissuasive effect those prone to commiting a crime.  It will never stop violent crime entirely; there will always be people going the extra mile to get the weapons and shoot people.  But it will, imo, certainly reduce the likelihood of occurrence.

There is a big difference between "difficult to get" and "difficult to get legally". Firearms are always easier to get illegally rather than legally, here and in the US.

Inability to obtain firearms will not deter someone bent on killing. See Nice (truck), Air India (bomb), World Trade Centre 2001 (knives and airliners), Blue Bird Cafe in Montreal (gasoline and matches), a nerve gas attack in the Tokyo subway, the  Alfred P Murrah Building bombing in Oklahoma City (fertilizer bomb), and some mass slashings with swords and knives in Japan and China.

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Re: 29 Jan 2017: Multiple dead after shooting at Quebec City mosque
« Reply #61 on: January 31, 2017, 15:06:20 »
I personally feel this fits more a hate crime than a terrorist act.

I don't know all the details, and I'm sure nobody here does either. But he attacked one ethnic group, he discriminated against one race/religion, But I do agree it may be politically motivated. There is a lot of backlash to the Syrian Immigrant in Canada. You don't have to go far to see it,  it could be he took a perverted view of that and made it into this. Which is much different than saying I don't like immigrants.

I always felt Terrorist acts are indiscriminate in who they kill, they just want to kill as many as possible. They would care more about a person being a Canadian, than being a Muslim, or Jew, or Christian.

I'm sure it'll come out in time. But my gut feeling this is classic Racism.

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Re: 29 Jan 2017: Multiple dead after shooting at Quebec City mosque
« Reply #62 on: January 31, 2017, 15:09:48 »
I note one of the victims was a prof from his school so the motives might be mixed and perhaps personal. I would call this a reprehensible Hate Crime and not terrorism. I suspect the government is not letting an opportunity to "frame the discussion" get away from them, hence their quickness to latch onto the word. But of course I am a cynical old fart.

No. You are just grasping at straw. There is a big difference between a school and a university.

The professor is a Laval University Agriculture department professor. The alleged perpetrator was in the Social Sciences department. There are about 60,000 students at Laval University, with a campus about two and a half square kilometres filled with about 30 different pavilions. There is about 800 meters between the Social Sciences pavilion and the Agriculture one, and in Quebec's francophone universities, there are no such things as requirement for a certain number of "electives" out of department. The chances that he knew that prof., while not nil, are pretty remote.

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Re: 29 Jan 2017: Multiple dead after shooting at Quebec City mosque
« Reply #63 on: January 31, 2017, 15:15:40 »
I note one of the victims was a prof from his school so the motives might be mixed and perhaps personal. I would call this a reprehensible Hate Crime and not terrorism. I suspect the government is not letting an opportunity to "frame the discussion" get away from them, hence their quickness to latch onto the word. But of course I am a cynical old fart.
With the initial reports of two shooters, labeling it terrorism at the outset makes a certain degree of non-"framing" sense.

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Re: 29 Jan 2017: Multiple dead after shooting at Quebec City mosque
« Reply #64 on: January 31, 2017, 15:27:53 »
With the initial reports of two shooters, labeling it terrorism at the outset makes a certain degree of non-"framing" sense.

Terrorism though is also a very powerful word today, it draws eyes. Racism not so much. Seeing someone called a racist, people envision groups or person that are usually very localized, small with a lack of any real power. Calling people a terrorist, people envision hordes of religious fanatics with far international reach, sleeper cells, planning wars and all sorts of things.

This guy seems like a recluse who acted alone, no instruction, just a hate of the world, and certain groups.

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Re: 29 Jan 2017: Multiple dead after shooting at Quebec City mosque
« Reply #65 on: January 31, 2017, 18:19:21 »
FOX NEWS
"Suspect in Quebec mosque terror attack was of Moroccan origin"
https://twitter.com/FoxNews/status/826120752529301504
Posted:  9:31 AM - 30 Jan 2017
Fox News FINALLY took it down at 1923 Hrs. EST- 31 Jan 2017.

Trudeau’s PMO takes on Fox News over a ‘false and misleading’ tweet about the Quebec mosque shooting
http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/canadian-politics/trudeaus-pmo-takes-on-fox-news-over-a-fox-tweet-about-the-mosque-shooting
“These tweets by Fox News dishonour the memory of the six victims and their families by spreading misinformation, playing identity politics, and perpetuating fear and division within our communities,”

See also,
https://www.google.ca/search?q=trudeau+%22fox+news%22&rls=com.microsoft%3Aen-CA%3AIE-Address&rlz=1I7GGHP_en-GBCA592&biw=1536&bih=723&source=lnt&tbs=cdr%3A1%2Ccd_min%3A1%2F31%2F2017%2Ccd_max%3A1%2F31%2F2017&tbm=#tbs=cdr:1%2Ccd_min:1%2F31%2F2017%2Ccd_max:1%2F31%2F2017&q=trudeau+%22fox+news%22+%22Moroccan+origin%22



« Last Edit: January 31, 2017, 21:42:23 by mariomike »
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Re: 29 Jan 2017: Multiple dead after shooting at Quebec City mosque
« Reply #66 on: January 31, 2017, 19:00:39 »
Terrorism though is also a very powerful word today, it draws eyes. Racism not so much. Seeing someone called a racist, people envision groups or person that are usually very localized, small with a lack of any real power. Calling people a terrorist, people envision hordes of religious fanatics with far international reach, sleeper cells, planning wars and all sorts of things.

This guy seems like a recluse who acted alone, no instruction, just a hate of the world, and certain groups.

You're awfully concerned with flags and words.

Edit: typo
« Last Edit: January 31, 2017, 19:07:10 by Scott »
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Offline Retired AF Guy

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Re: 29 Jan 2017: Multiple dead after shooting at Quebec City mosque
« Reply #67 on: January 31, 2017, 20:57:37 »
I personally feel this fits more a hate crime than a terrorist act.

I always felt Terrorist acts are indiscriminate in who they kill, they just want to kill as many as possible. They would care more about a person being a Canadian, than being a Muslim, or Jew, or Christian.

I'm sure it'll come out in time. But my gut feeling this is classic Racism.

Yes, terrorist attacks, are random, and they are designed to cause mass casualties, but they fit into the overall terrorist strategy, which to paraphrase what Infanteer posted earlier is "The illegal use of violence against innocent people, to gain media attention and achieve political change."

For exampkle, the 2004 Madrid Train bombings.
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Re: 29 Jan 2017: Multiple dead after shooting at Quebec City mosque
« Reply #68 on: January 31, 2017, 22:04:31 »
This monster didn't want to effect change or influence opinion.  He just wanted to kill people he didn't like.
Apparently, a "USUAL SUSPECT"

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Re: 29 Jan 2017: Multiple dead after shooting at Quebec City mosque
« Reply #69 on: January 31, 2017, 23:25:42 »
Terrorism and hate crimes are not mutually exclusive. Mass violence may be one or the other or neither or both. I suspect this will be both.

I also suspect that between the arrest and his appearance in court, this pathetic little man-baby probably spilled his guts in an interrogation. I have absolutely nothing to go on in saying that, it's just a gut feel. He was a coward.

My bet right now? We'll see the whole story come out in an agreed statement of facts as part of a guilty plea. Politics will be a part of his motivation, along with a more base racism. He will not mount a successful insanity defense.
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Re: 29 Jan 2017: Multiple dead after shooting at Quebec City mosque
« Reply #70 on: February 01, 2017, 06:41:52 »
Some of the latest via CBC.ca ...
Quote
A shy chess-player, a bullied introvert, a moderate conservative turned far-right troll — these are the descriptions being offered of Alexandre Bissonnette since he was accused of perpetrating a deadly shooting at a Quebec City mosque.

Bissonnette looked nervous during his brief court appearance on Monday. He didn't say a word and shuffled in his handcuffs; before being escorted out, he was charged with 11 counts of murder and attempted murder.

He could still face more charges as the RCMP examine whether to add terrorism to the list of offences.

Police believe the shooter entered the Islamic cultural centre in the Quebec City suburb of Sainte-Foy just before 8 p.m. on Sunday, equipped with a long gun.

The gun jammed, police sources told Radio-Canada, prompting the shooter to leave and return with a nine-millimetre handgun.

Bissonnette was arrested later that night, on a bridge heading to Île d'Orléans, about five kilometres away from the mosque.

In his car, the sources said, officers found a nine-millimetre handgun registered to Bissonnette. That gun had a 15-round capacity ...
... The Canadian Press ...
Quote
Along the sleepy suburban street where the man charged in the Quebec City mosque shooting was raised, neighbours say as a kid he played baseball, swam in backyard pools and explored the nearby forest like many local boys.

Alexandre Bissonnette also developed a passion for guns as far back as his pre-teens, recalled one man who has lived across from the 27-year-old suspect’s childhood home for about three decades.

Rejean Bussieres, whose son is about the same age, remembered how the Bissonnette boy used to shoot his pellet gun at trees in the woods behind his house as a youngster.

“Alexandre really liked guns,” said Bussieres, who added that his son told him Bissonnette had a gun when he was about 12 years old.

“He showed one to my son and my son didn’t like that.” ...
... and globalnews.ca:
Quote
Two people remain in critical condition in a Quebec City hospital following the horrific attack on a mosque Sunday during evening prayers that left six men dead and 19 others injured.

Speaking with reporters Tuesday morning, hospital officials said two people remain in critical condition with abdominal injuries. As of late Monday, five people were still in hospital.

Officials said Tuesday one victim was released from l’Hôpital de l’Enfant-Jésus and another two individuals were still recovering in stable condition. Each victim suffered from three to six bullet wounds, a hospital official said. Doctors expect the two victims in critical condition will recover from their injuries ...

Meanwhile, "Fox News apologizes for erroneous Quebec terror tweet".  Let's see if that slows down the "False Flag Machine" on social media -- <sarcasm>yeah, I'm suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuure it'll close the door on that angle </sarcasm>.

And here's Rebel Media's take ...
Quote
... Twelve hours after the attack, the official media narrative involved not one but two suspects who allegedly yelled, “Allahu Akbar!” while carrying out their murderous rampage.

Witnesses were interviewed across various media outlets. Witnesses who claimed to have been inside the mosque at the time of the attack. All alleged the same: Two assailants stormed in, opening fire while shouting, "Allahu Akbar!" As of Monday morning Canada’s state broadcaster, the CBC, conducted television interviews with witnessed who, again, corroborated the story.

Thirteen hours after the attack, police forces from every level, held a joint press conference in which they confirmed they had two "suspects" in custody. So, several hours after the attack, police held in custody a man who later was identified as 29-year-old engineering student Mohamed Belkhadir. Police confirmed they continued to treat Belkhadir as a suspect and detained him as such well after he was apprehended at the scene.

But only a few hours later, Belkhadir’s role in the attack shifted:

From a suspect who attempted to flee the scene, to a good samaritan and witness who was providing first aid to victims when he was wrongfully accused by police.

However, one consideration of how many CCTV cameras are in place around the mosque invites the question: When did police review the security footage and why did it take them over 12 hours to determine that Bissonnette was their sole suspect? Why was Belkhadir held for such a long time? ...
« Last Edit: February 01, 2017, 06:48:23 by milnews.ca »
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Re: 29 Jan 2017: Multiple dead after shooting at Quebec City mosque
« Reply #72 on: February 01, 2017, 07:47:17 »
Although I may be called offside because I've participated in the debate here, just a friendly reminder:  let's try to keep this thread tracking the crime itself, as opposed to discussing gun control in a ton of detail.  There's already a thread for that, and methinks this could get heated up enough as is  ;)  Thanks for your help on this!

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100% agreed.  I will move over to the thread you speak of :)
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Re: 29 Jan 2017: Multiple dead after shooting at Quebec City mosque
« Reply #73 on: February 01, 2017, 07:52:09 »
100% agreed.  I will move over to the thread you speak of :)
Not a huge dig, but there's more than enough on BOTH topics to keep threads healthily fed without force-feeding one or the other - thanks!
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Re: 29 Jan 2017: Multiple dead after shooting at Quebec City mosque
« Reply #74 on: February 01, 2017, 07:53:50 »
... There is a lot of backlash to the Syrian Immigrant in Canada. You don't have to go far to see it on social media ...
FTFY  ;)
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Tony Prudori
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