Author Topic: Canadian Values do not include Canada for younger generation  (Read 18698 times)

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Offline Colin P

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Re: Canadian Values do not include Canada for younger generation
« Reply #25 on: October 07, 2016, 12:26:23 »
yes it has come a long way, a benevolent dictatorship, as long as you don't piss off the government or someone connected, they leave you alone. However a South Vietnamese government would have gotten to this point likely in the late 80's looking very much like South Korea. hard to say what would have happened in the North, that region was the "breadbasket" of the country, so unless they badly screwed up they would not starve, mind you North Korea used to be as well.

Offline Thucydides

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Re: Canadian Values do not include Canada for younger generation
« Reply #26 on: October 07, 2016, 19:22:45 »
You're like the chiral version of Walter Sobchak, where instead of everything being about the tragedy of the war in Vietnam everything is instead about the dangers of leftists, progressives and socialists.

There are about 100 million ghosts from the 20th century who would like to speak to you about the dangers of Leftists, Progressives and Socialists.
Dagny, this is not a battle over material goods. It's a moral crisis, the greatest the world has ever faced and the last. Our age is the climax of centuries of evil. We must put an end to it, once and for all, or perish - we, the men of the mind. It was our own guilt. We produced the wealth of the world - but we let our enemies write its moral code.

Offline biernini

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Re: Canadian Values do not include Canada for younger generation
« Reply #27 on: October 23, 2016, 06:09:06 »
Hands up from anyone who thinks Millenials don't already know this, and have known this for years now? And yet we have hundreds of thousands of third world villagers on temporary work visas to fill alleged labour shortages, also something very well known by those whiny, unpatriotic Millenials.

Offline biernini

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Re: Canadian Values do not include Canada for younger generation
« Reply #28 on: October 23, 2016, 12:59:13 »
There are about 100 million ghosts from the 20th century who would like to speak to you about the dangers of Leftists, Progressives and Socialists.
Pardon me, but somehow I don't think Millenials who are fed up with neoliberal economics, neoconservative foreign policy and politics beholden to both are on some greasy slope to genocide. Colour me crazy.

Offline Brad Sallows

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Re: Canadian Values do not include Canada for younger generation
« Reply #29 on: October 23, 2016, 13:46:57 »
Oh, but they are.

It always starts out with good intentions and dissatisfaction with the status quo.  But some people don't want to go along, so they must be forced.  And they resist further, so they must be forced more strongly.  Collectivist solutions inevitably require a degree of totalitarianism, which promotes recourse to tyranny.

And one greasy slope later - as has happened so often before - there is your democide (genocide is the wrong term).
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Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: Canadian Values do not include Canada for younger generation
« Reply #30 on: October 23, 2016, 14:38:14 »
You know, Brad, I am not a Millenial, not by a long shot (unless you are basing yourself on the past millennium  ;D), but you are starting to sound like Yoda: "Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger, anger to hate and hate, to suffering!"

I am sorry, but good intentions and dissatisfaction with the status quo is how every new generation has seen the world, and to me that is a positive, not a dangerous slippery slope. Without it no one gets a drive to try and make things better. Satisfaction with the status quo through all generations would have kept us all nomadic hunter-gatherers tribes in Africa.

So I for one am glad that the younger generations have always pushed against the current one's way of doing things, as have we. Has it led at time in some bad directions that resulted in atrocities? Yes, but as much from the leftist, progressives and socialists as from the rightist, conservatives and fascists to be frank.

As for the Millenials themselves, I have two sons who are from that generation. I get to interact with them and their friends all the time and must say that they impress me as being just as we were at their age. So they are not quite as patriotic as we were (I would say bull to that one: look at them rooting for Canada at the olympics or World cups). What did we expect: they are the first generation that has been raised with wonderful tools that gives them access not only to everything that is going on in the world around them, but to communicating in a social way with the ordinary people of all nations. It's only normal that they would take a world view first. It does not means they would not volunteer en masse to serve if our country was somehow threatened. I suspect they would. 

Offline Jed

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Re: Canadian Values do not include Canada for younger generation
« Reply #31 on: October 23, 2016, 16:05:28 »
You know, Brad, I am not a Millenial, not by a long shot (unless you are basing yourself on the past millennium  ;D), but you are starting to sound like Yoda: "Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger, anger to hate and hate, to suffering!"

I am sorry, but good intentions and dissatisfaction with the status quo is how every new generation has seen the world, and to me that is a positive, not a dangerous slippery slope. Without it no one gets a drive to try and make things better. Satisfaction with the status quo through all generations would have kept us all nomadic hunter-gatherers tribes in Africa.

So I for one am glad that the younger generations have always pushed against the current one's way of doing things, as have we. Has it led at time in some bad directions that resulted in atrocities? Yes, but as much from the leftist, progressives and socialists as from the rightist, conservatives and fascists to be frank.

As for the Millenials themselves, I have two sons who are from that generation. I get to interact with them and their friends all the time and must say that they impress me as being just as we were at their age. So they are not quite as patriotic as we were (I would say bull to that one: look at them rooting for Canada at the olympics or World cups). What did we expect: they are the first generation that has been raised with wonderful tools that gives them access not only to everything that is going on in the world around them, but to communicating in a social way with the ordinary people of all nations. It's only normal that they would take a world view first. It does not means they would not volunteer en masse to serve if our country was somehow threatened. I suspect they would.

Generalizations about any demographic tend to be in error for a minority of the particular demographic.

I recall the very broad ' baby boomer generation. ' The youth of today tend to think the whole age group was pot smoking rebels in their day before adapting to the more conservative attitudes.

What I don't recall from the ' baby boomer' generation was the passive-aggressive, whiny entitlement attitudes that seems to be so prevalent in today's later Gen-x ers and Millennials. Thank God there are many youth who resist the trend and are blessed with critical thinking and common sense.
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Offline dapaterson

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Re: Canadian Values do not include Canada for younger generation
« Reply #32 on: October 23, 2016, 16:46:36 »
What I don't recall from the ' baby boomer' generation was the passive-aggressive, whiny entitlement attitudes that seems to be so prevalent in today's later Gen-x ers and Millennials. Thank God there are many youth who resist the trend and are blessed with critical thinking and common sense.

Try to introduce means tests for government support to their generation, or point out that their lack of fiscal discipline has saddled future generations with huge debt, and you'll see the Boomer whiny entitlement come out.
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Re: Canadian Values do not include Canada for younger generation
« Reply #33 on: October 23, 2016, 17:43:45 »
Try to introduce means tests for government support to their generation, or point out that their lack of fiscal discipline has saddled future generations with huge debt, and you'll see the Boomer whiny entitlement come out.

Actually DAP, it was "The Greatest Generation" (WW2) and their parents (WW1 and the Depression) that voted in Roosevelt's New Deal and Attlee's Welfare State fit for heroes.  MacKenzie King, Pearson and Douglas were late to the party.

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Re: Canadian Values do not include Canada for younger generation
« Reply #34 on: October 23, 2016, 17:44:25 »
Try to introduce means tests for government support to their generation, or point out that their lack of fiscal discipline has saddled future generations with huge debt, and you'll see the Boomer whiny entitlement come out.

 :nod:

Of course downplaying that it will be paid in significant part by the general income from the taxes of all, including the Millenials... ;)

Offline Brad Sallows

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Re: Canadian Values do not include Canada for younger generation
« Reply #35 on: October 23, 2016, 19:51:22 »
The only good thing about the extension of the ORPP into a CPP expansion is that it doesn't have much effect on those with few remaining contribution years remaining.  Undoubtedly, though, in general the younger generations will figure out some way to kick the can as the past ones have - unless there is no remaining way to prevent the music from stopping.
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Offline Brad Sallows

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Re: Canadian Values do not include Canada for younger generation
« Reply #36 on: October 23, 2016, 19:55:24 »
>I am sorry, but good intentions and dissatisfaction with the status quo is how every new generation has seen the world, and to me that is a positive, not a dangerous slippery slope.

Fair enough, but the dissatisfaction of the 1920s/30s didn't turn out very well; and the dissatisfaction of the 1960s can be traced to some not very successful programs and some substantial commitment overhangs today.  I suppose I am the pessimist here: the damage that has been done and the lives lost far outweighs the good that has been done and the lives that have been improved where politics is involved*.

*The caveat: most of the lives that have been improved I attribute to technology and business (selfishness), not to any political/social reformers.
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Offline biernini

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Re: Canadian Values do not include Canada for younger generation
« Reply #37 on: October 23, 2016, 22:10:18 »
Actually DAP, it was "The Greatest Generation" (WW2) and their parents (WW1 and the Depression) that voted in Roosevelt's New Deal and Attlee's Welfare State fit for heroes.  MacKenzie King, Pearson and Douglas were late to the party.
The "Greatest Generation" whittled that debt to GDP ratio down to 31.70 percent in 1974, and has since ballooned to well over 100 under the care and control of the 'boomers. Household debt in America grew from essentially nothing around 1950 and remained around 50% through to the seventies before exploding to almost 130% of disposable income just before the Great Recession, and still hovers over 100%. Ominously this is presently at over 160% in Canada. State/Province and Municipal debt have all followed similar trends.

It's absolutely ludicrous to blame the present debt load that is expected to be carried by the Millenials and beyond as a legacy of FDR et al.

Offline Thucydides

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Re: Canadian Values do not include Canada for younger generation
« Reply #38 on: October 23, 2016, 22:23:30 »
I have mentioned in past political threads that we are entering an era where the sorts of ideas championed by current political parties and the social and political structures that have been created are no longer effectively answering the questions of today or reflecting the social, economic or demographic changes we see all around us.

In the past, this has set the stage for some huge upheavals, at the mildest watching entire industries and political parties vanish all the way to revolutions overturning nations. In between, we also see nations in turmoil being overtaken by ruthless dictators, most of whom receive at least the passive acceptance of the population (yes, even the Afghan people welcomed the Taliban at first) with the promise of ending chaos and providing stability.

Many young people see opportunities are lacking, and a bleak future paying off debts incurred by today's reckless political spending. This is compounded by their lack of proper education (speaking anecdotally, I have taught leadership candidates since the 1990's and each crop has greater difficulty in reasoning and communication, even if they are probably as smart in raw IQ as the ones before. They simply never have been taught how to think, analyse or plan, or how to use the English language effectively. This isn't just confined to the military population, dig up some old newspapers and read letters to the editor, or even look at how newspaper and magazine articles have been dumbed down over the decades).

So the younger generation can sense they have been handed a raw deal compared to the past, and don't have the tools available to do something about it (yet). People who move to radical Islam, or start moving with the Alt-Right, or study Anarcho-Capitalism are all seeking the new tools, new social, economic and political institutions that will provide workable answers to the problems and issues they face.

That will be a brutal evolutionary process, and Marnie Le Pen, the AdF, Bernie Sanders and Donald Trump are models of what Canada and the world's politics will look  like as the future unfolds. Many Alt-Right bloggers believe that identiy politics are replacing ideological politics as more and more institutions are captured by the ideas of "identity" and "diversity" (a very sad development in my mind), and it is an easy route to travel, since humans are inherently tribal in nature. Other models have been proposed, and of course old models like the "New Order" are making a rapid comeback as well  Bernie Sanders could easily have said "Tutto nello Stato, niente al di fuori dello Stato, niente contro lo Stato." and millions of Bernie Bros would have fallen all over themselves.

What "values" younger Canadians will chose will probably end up being the ones which promise to provide them with the best personal outcomes. If Canada survives in a way we would still identify with after that transition is interesting to contemplate.
Dagny, this is not a battle over material goods. It's a moral crisis, the greatest the world has ever faced and the last. Our age is the climax of centuries of evil. We must put an end to it, once and for all, or perish - we, the men of the mind. It was our own guilt. We produced the wealth of the world - but we let our enemies write its moral code.

Offline E.R. Campbell

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Re: Canadian Values do not include Canada for younger generation
« Reply #39 on: October 24, 2016, 07:57:29 »
The "Greatest Generation" whittled that debt to GDP ratio down to 31.70 percent in 1974, and has since ballooned to well over 100 under the care and control of the 'boomers. Household debt in America grew from essentially nothing around 1950 and remained around 50% through to the seventies before exploding to almost 130% of disposable income just before the Great Recession, and still hovers over 100%. Ominously this is presently at over 160% in Canada. State/Province and Municipal debt have all followed similar trends.

It's absolutely ludicrous to blame the present debt load that is expected to be carried by the Millenials and beyond as a legacy of FDR et al.

The data I have ~ for Canada ~ is slightly different, although the pattern is the same:

Canada's national (federal, only) public debt was down to about 20% of GDP in the late 1960s.

It began to climb, rapidly in the 1970s and the rate of growth was not constrained (in other words spending was allowed to continue even when it was, fairly obviously, unaffordable) and by the mid 1990s (only 25 years after the spending spree began, it was at 60% of GDP.

The Chrétien government took action ~ including "offloading" expenses onto AB, BC and ON ~ and by 2008 the debt had been reduced to a more manageable 30+% of GDP. But, remember, please that this was the federal government's debt, only ... we, as taxpayers, are on the hook for federal and provincial (and local) debts and, circa 2000 provincial debts, beyond just Quebec's, began to grow at an alarming rate.

The Great Recession drove borrowing up again and by 2012 it was at 38% of GDP.

My, personal, analysis: pent up demand for social services ~ which was led by the "Greatest Generation" which had endured/survived/suffered through the Great Depression and then fought World War II and was convinced that it wanted neither for its children  and grandchildren ~ was finally met by someone (Pierre Trudeau) who was willing to open the supply valve ... all the way. No prime minister since, not Mulroney, not Chrétien, not Harper and certainly not Justin Trudeau, had the guts to stop the bleeding. We want our social services, we feel "entitled to our entitlements," we believe that the "the land is strong" and that there is an endless supply of someone else's money that can be spent on us ... woe the politician who disagrees.

Now that Canada's two largest provinces, with over half the population, are both economic weak sisters, both with ginormous public debts of their own, we look a lot worse than the national debt numbers (still in the 30s) would indicate, in fact, at a (somewhat educated) guess we are somewhere in the 90% to 110% range of debt:GDP.
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Offline ArmyRick

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Re: Canadian Values do not include Canada for younger generation
« Reply #40 on: October 24, 2016, 08:46:31 »
Got a question and need some military straight up no-nonsense thoughts or maybe even if possible, facts. Let me know if its opinion or fact on this.

Has anybody heard of the mega-rich George Soros? Apparently all over facebook that he is super wealthy and supports everything liberal or "left-sided"

There is rumblings he backed Trudeau and is backing Mrs Clinton. Thoughts on him? Info?

I put this question here because all the allegations seem to indicate he is a "string puller" of the world puppets or this just conspiracy garble?

On that note, does anybody know of some alleged UN agenda 2030 to make the world all one happy place (where everybody but the super elite are equally depressed)?
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Offline Lumber

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Re: Canadian Values do not include Canada for younger generation
« Reply #41 on: October 24, 2016, 10:31:43 »
Got a question and need some military straight up no-nonsense thoughts or maybe even if possible, facts. Let me know if its opinion or fact on this.

Has anybody heard of the mega-rich George Soros? Apparently all over facebook that he is super wealthy and supports everything liberal or "left-sided"

There is rumblings he backed Trudeau and is backing Mrs Clinton. Thoughts on him? Info?

I put this question here because all the allegations seem to indicate he is a "string puller" of the world puppets or this just conspiracy garble?

On that note, does anybody know of some alleged UN agenda 2030 to make the world all one happy place (where everybody but the super elite are equally depressed)?

George Thoros is just a really rich guy. He uses his considerable money and influence to support various causes that he personally identifies with. He's supports various pro-democratic movements, and his a huge philanthropists.

Many people assume that this means he is part of a huge global conspiracy to shape the direction of world politics. I think he's just a guy with a lot of money throwing it and things that he thinks are important. The only difference between him and the people on this site is that he actually has money and influence. I don't see any conspiracy or anything wrong with him.
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Offline Thucydides

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Re: Canadian Values do not include Canada for younger generation
« Reply #42 on: October 24, 2016, 10:56:13 »
Many of the various foundations which are directly or indirectly supported by Soros do end up in Canadian politics.  Vivian Krause has documented this (one article here, but this has also been extensively documented in the National Post.

Avaas, a spinoff of Moveon.Org, also entered Canadian politics in the 2011 elections, in an attempt to influence voters against the Conservative Party. And much of the influence peddling that Krause and others document involve chains of payments resembling money laundering so a "Canadian" group can fund activism without seeming to be the puppet of an American organization.

And Soros funded organizations all fall on the hard left end of the political spectrum.

While it is his money and he is free to fund whatever he wants, it is a bit chilling to know that at least $300 million dollars is being spent by foreign lobby groups to cripple a resource sector worth 8% of Canada's economy, or that while rabid calls are constantly being made in the United States to "eliminate big money" from politics, one of the biggest money sources seems conspicuously absent whenever big donors are being publicly brought out for shaming attacks.

So while Soros isn't the head of SPECTRE or anything like that I would suggest he is certainly an individual who should be watched and reported on much more.
Dagny, this is not a battle over material goods. It's a moral crisis, the greatest the world has ever faced and the last. Our age is the climax of centuries of evil. We must put an end to it, once and for all, or perish - we, the men of the mind. It was our own guilt. We produced the wealth of the world - but we let our enemies write its moral code.

Offline Lumber

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Re: Canadian Values do not include Canada for younger generation
« Reply #43 on: October 24, 2016, 11:16:18 »
Many of the various foundations which are directly or indirectly supported by Soros do end up in Canadian politics.  Vivian Krause has documented this (one article here, but this has also been extensively documented in the National Post.

Avaas, a spinoff of Moveon.Org, also entered Canadian politics in the 2011 elections, in an attempt to influence voters against the Conservative Party. And much of the influence peddling that Krause and others document involve chains of payments resembling money laundering so a "Canadian" group can fund activism without seeming to be the puppet of an American organization.

And Soros funded organizations all fall on the hard left end of the political spectrum.

While it is his money and he is free to fund whatever he wants, it is a bit chilling to know that at least $300 million dollars is being spent by foreign lobby groups to cripple a resource sector worth 8% of Canada's economy, or that while rabid calls are constantly being made in the United States to "eliminate big money" from politics, one of the biggest money sources seems conspicuously absent whenever big donors are being publicly brought out for shaming attacks.

So while Soros isn't the head of SPECTRE or anything like that I would suggest he is certainly an individual who should be watched and reported on much more.

 :goodpost:

The contentious issue is, IMO, that the "head of SPECTRE" is exactly how a lot of people (including some on this site) view George Thoros. A polarizing figure to say the least.
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Re: Canadian Values do not include Canada for younger generation
« Reply #44 on: October 24, 2016, 11:44:23 »
Thank God there are many youth who resist the trend and are blessed with critical thinking and common sense.
Please ask them to join this site.   ;)

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Re: Canadian Values do not include Canada for younger generation
« Reply #46 on: October 24, 2016, 16:21:32 »
... Bernie Sanders could easily have said "Tutto nello Stato, niente al di fuori dello Stato, niente contro lo Stato." and millions of Bernie Bros would have fallen all over themselves ...
And if you don't know where the bit in yellow came from, it wasn't from a socialist ...
Please ask them to join this site.   ;)
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Offline Brad Sallows

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Re: Canadian Values do not include Canada for younger generation
« Reply #47 on: October 24, 2016, 16:39:41 »
>And if you don't know where the bit in yellow came from, it wasn't from a socialist ...

Benito and Iosef didn't differ much.  Substitute "party nomenklatura" for "aristocracies" and you're all the way there.
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Re: Canadian Values do not include Canada for younger generation
« Reply #48 on: October 24, 2016, 16:50:12 »
>And if you don't know where the bit in yellow came from, it wasn't from a socialist ...

Benito and Iosef didn't differ much.  Substitute "party nomenklatura" for "aristocracies" and you're all the way there.
... and uniform colours, but agree 150% - while some might disagree, totalitarian is totalitarian is totalitarian ...
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Offline Retired AF Guy

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Re: Canadian Values do not include Canada for younger generation
« Reply #49 on: October 24, 2016, 17:47:31 »
:goodpost:

The contentious issue is, IMO, that the "head of SPECTRE" is exactly how a lot of people (including some on this site) view George Thoros. A polarizing figure to say the least.

And the left have their own bogymen in the Koch Brothers.
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