Author Topic: Canadian Values do not include Canada for younger generation  (Read 19156 times)

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Offline MCG

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The article is a lot of opinions, but the poll data on which it was based offers a potentially disturbing statistic.  http://infogr.am/a338beaa-2a13-4663-9894-3ade1151aa41

If younger generations are increasingly less inclined to feel an emotional attachment to the country, is that a national security risk?
Quote
CBC-Angus Reid Institute poll: Canadian millennials hold off on their love of country
Canadians 18 to 34 less likely to say they are proud of Canada than older Canadians

Roshini Nair
CBC News
04 Oct 2016

According to the results of a national polling partnership between CBC and the Angus Reid Institute, those aged 18 to 34 have a much cooler relationship to Canada than older Canadians.

Overall, the majority of Canadians polled said they were proud of Canada. Those 65 and over were the most proud, with 65 per cent saying they were very proud of Canada.

However, pride diminished with the age of the respondents. The poll revealed that only 40 per cent of Canadians aged 18 to 34 said they were very proud of Canada.

"It's a stark finding, and one that certainly jumps out and isn't something we've seen before," said Shachi Kurl, executive director of the Angus Reid Institute.

One possible reason for this changing relationship, Kurl said, is that a global technological revolution has made this generation more globally connected in real time than any previous group.

"This is the first generation of watching movies or TV from other parts of the world. It's not just what they're reading from a local newspaper but consuming from the internet, from the pipeline of communication and information that's coming at them, and shaping their views and thoughts."

But this "pipeline of information" has profound consequences for how millennials think and act.

A clue lies in another key finding in the poll.

While the majority of people over 34 said the news media do a good job presenting the facts, 64 per cent of those 18 to 34 said the opposite — that most of the stories you see in the news can't be trusted.

Stuart Poyntz, a professor of communications at Simon Fraser University, said this distrust is part of growing up in a technologically saturated environment.

"It doesn't really matter what the issue, there is often a sense of skepticism, irony and wariness about lining oneself up behind any issue or concern firmly for fear that you're going to be duped … or you're going to look like you're too easy to manipulate." An important skill millennials have to learn in a world saturated with information, he said, is to differentiate between what is true and what is not.

This skepticism and distance extends to Canada itself.

For Erica Isomura, 24, being a proud Canadian is complicated.

Isomura is a fourth-generation Japanese- and Chinese-Canadian who works as a project co-ordinator for a Vancouver-based non-governmental organization, focusing on issues of inclusion and identity.

Many of her ancestors were not always afforded the same rights as other Canadian-born people. Her own connections to her heritage — whether through culture or language — have been diminished because of the desire of past generations to assimilate.

"I think within my parents, and I would even say my grandparent's generation, there was a much stronger urge to assimilate to kind of quote-unquote Canadian culture, which I think kind of mirrors Anglo-Saxon white Canadian culture."

Isomura doesn't feel the same.

After finding like-minded communities online and in university, she took an active interest in identity politics.

Many younger Canadians, she said, are skeptical of whole-heartedly embracing the Canadian state in light of its treatment of minorities, LGBT communities and other disadvantaged groups.

Her generation — bolstered by online communities and networks — is willing to reject the idea of one dominant Canadian culture and embrace multiple identities, she added.

It's a feeling that's reflected in the polling data.

For example, older generations are significantly more likely to say that minorities should make an effort to fit into Canadian society.

Millennials are not only less likely to say this, a majority — 53 per cent — feel that cultural diversity should be encouraged.

But it's not just issues of identity politics that have millennials feeling wary — financial security is another key issue.

According to the survey, younger generations are more likely to say their attachment to Canada depends upon economic conditions than to say they love Canada for what it stands for.

"The relationship they feel to Canada is a much more practical one. They're much more inclined to say their attachment to Canada comes from a good standard of living," Kurl explained.

It's no surprise that millennials connect a good standard of living to issues of national identity.

Increased student debt, unaffordable housing in the major metro regions, paired with decreased job prospects — especially for those without post-secondary education — have created uncertainty and pessimism among young Canadians.

In such an uncertain financial and political climate, it would be strange for young Canadians to express enthusiastic displays of patriotism.

But uncertainty should not be confused for apathy.

Rather, it's the birth of a new generation's voice, determined to question, examine and fight until home becomes the place they want it to be.


The online survey was conducted in early September from a sample of 3,904 Canadians, and 1,131 people between 18 and 34 did the survey. The results have a 2.5 per cent margin of error 19 times out of 20.  
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/angus-reid-millennials-proud-canada-1.3788713

Offline Ostrozac

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Re: Canadian Values do not include Canada for younger generation
« Reply #1 on: October 05, 2016, 15:46:15 »
If younger generations are increasingly less inclined to feel an emotional attachment to the country, is that a national security risk?

Nationalism as we know it today isn't necessarily humanity's natural state, and as a political force it really only starting gaining solid ground in the 18th century. It wouldn't surprise me, in an increasingly interconnected world, if some sort of post-nationalism eventually gains ground.

As to the security implications -- the good news is that it wouldn't happen in Canada alone, every nation would have to deal with citizens increasingly lacking emotional attachment to the nation as a concept -- so the risks would be balanced, shared among our enemies and allies.

Offline George Wallace

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Re: Canadian Values do not include Canada for younger generation
« Reply #2 on: October 05, 2016, 15:49:14 »
Are risks balanced if chaos reigns?  I am not sure about that.  I would say that the risks would be greater for all.
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Offline Technoviking

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Re: Canadian Values do not include Canada for younger generation
« Reply #3 on: October 05, 2016, 17:37:08 »
Nationalism as we know it today isn't necessarily humanity's natural state, and as a political force it really only starting gaining solid ground in the 18th century. It wouldn't surprise me, in an increasingly interconnected world, if some sort of post-nationalism eventually gains ground.
I highlighted that part because I think you're bang on.  The so-called "nation-state" (which goes beyond a people and instead groups together peoples is, as you said, a relatively newer phenomenon.  Think to "Germany".  Today, one would talk of centuries of "German" history, when it's really centuries of "german" history.  Before 1870, it was Prussian/Hessian/Swabian/Bavarian/Pomeranian (etc) history.

So, looking away from the old,white version of a Rough Rider Canada and ahead to the polyglot hybrid Canada of the 21st Century and beyond, will we see a new "-ism" that will replace "nationalism" or even "federalism"?  Only time will tell, I suppose.
So, there I was....

Offline GR66

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Re: Canadian Values do not include Canada for younger generation
« Reply #4 on: October 05, 2016, 20:48:00 »
I'd hesitate to automatically equate "pride" with "loyalty". 

Where our parents and grandparents were brought up to think "My country, right or wrong", the media typically spoke with a single voice, the cultural face that was promoted was much more homogeneous, and the external threats much more monolithic in nature.

Today we have access to much more information which is often much more critical (or at least questioning) of our leaders, institutions and the perceived "national culture" of our past.  With a much brighter spotlight on things like Residential Schools, 3rd World conditions on reserves, perceived (or real) racial biases among some members of law enforcement, internment camps, economic inequality, sexual violence, etc, etc, etc, it's quite possible for people to be less (blindly?) proud of our country and more demanding of change/improvement.  I don't think that necessarily means that those people are any less loyal to their country. 

I'd be curious to see a poll that asks younger Canadians if they think Canada is the best country in the world to live in.  They may not think Canada is perfect or without fault, but they may still recognize that it is better than most other countries.

This Buzzfeed poll (https://www.buzzfeed.com/laurenstrapagiel/millennials-think-canada-is-the-cool?utm_term=.bfLkZvPEG#.vwl0NLGm6) seems to suggest that Millennials worldwide think Canada is the best, but admittedly it doesn't tell us how Canadian Millennials specifically feel about Canada.

Offline Dimsum

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Re: Canadian Values do not include Canada for younger generation
« Reply #5 on: October 05, 2016, 21:07:19 »
I'd hesitate to automatically equate "pride" with "loyalty". 

Where our parents and grandparents were brought up to think "My country, right or wrong", the media typically spoke with a single voice, the cultural face that was promoted was much more homogeneous, and the external threats much more monolithic in nature.

Today we have access to much more information which is often much more critical (or at least questioning) of our leaders, institutions and the perceived "national culture" of our past.  With a much brighter spotlight on things like Residential Schools, 3rd World conditions on reserves, perceived (or real) racial biases among some members of law enforcement, internment camps, economic inequality, sexual violence, etc, etc, etc, it's quite possible for people to be less (blindly?) proud of our country and more demanding of change/improvement.  I don't think that necessarily means that those people are any less loyal to their country. 

I'd be curious to see a poll that asks younger Canadians if they think Canada is the best country in the world to live in.  They may not think Canada is perfect or without fault, but they may still recognize that it is better than most other countries.


This makes me think of The Newsroom, specifically this scene:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTjMqda19wk
Philip II of Macedon to Spartans (346 BC):  "You are advised to submit without further delay, for if I bring my army into your land, I will destroy your farms, slay your people, and raze your city."

Reply:  "If."

Offline Colin P

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Re: Canadian Values do not include Canada for younger generation
« Reply #6 on: October 05, 2016, 22:46:04 »
the problem is that people might start identifying purely on a regional basis, possibly going smaller and smaller till you get a tribal society and we have seen what they are like. Global thinking is for the relaxed and well fed. Modern society can degenerate very quickly as it is very dependent on everything working. Nationalism got bad rap but it was better than what came before. 

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Re: Canadian Values do not include Canada for younger generation
« Reply #7 on: October 05, 2016, 23:19:02 »
the problem is that people might start identifying purely on a regional basis, possibly going smaller and smaller till you get a tribal society and we have seen what they are like. Global thinking is for the relaxed and well fed. Modern society can degenerate very quickly as it is very dependent on everything working. Nationalism got bad rap but it was better than what came before.

Got it in one.

The question is - how far from the dinner table do your allegiances extend.
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Offline biernini

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Re: Canadian Values do not include Canada for younger generation
« Reply #8 on: October 06, 2016, 01:18:08 »
Global thinking is for the relaxed and well fed.
Good point, which as the article spells out explains why Millenials think less of Canada (and globalism in general). It's because they are increasingly worried with good reason that they cannot expect to be as well relaxed nor perhaps even as well fed as older generations.

Offline Ostrozac

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Re: Canadian Values do not include Canada for younger generation
« Reply #9 on: October 06, 2016, 02:39:53 »
Global thinking is for the relaxed and well fed.

Good point. And the flipside of that statement is that the nervous and the angry think locally. Not much national spirit going on in Iraq or Syria or Libya right now -- it's all local loyalties. So who does that leave loyal to the nation state?

Offline Lightguns

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Re: Canadian Values do not include Canada for younger generation
« Reply #10 on: October 06, 2016, 07:08:04 »
Good point. And the flipside of that statement is that the nervous and the angry think locally. Not much national spirit going on in Iraq or Syria or Libya right now -- it's all local loyalties. So who does that leave loyal to the nation state?

The Nation State is a post colonial contrivance in the ME and Africa doomed to immediate failure in the face of ethnic loyalty.  In the west it was bore out of wars of absolutism and submission to a single ruler or ruling concept morphing from the God given ruler (except the Commonwealth) to some form of political system.  Later in the West the nation state was defined by it's industrial prosperity and the working together to bring that birthright to all members of the nation state.  Those rulers, that prosperity is almost gone and the political system is in much disrepute. 

The all doctrines of our political elite is simply partisan and corrupt, plus we no longer teach citizenship to our youth.  Now our new government is beginning to act like we are a borderless state or post nation state.  So no one really believes in the nation state anymore.  The nation state itself is only valid if it is homogeneous, most nation states are no longer so but China and Russia who have very little minorities are still effective at commanding the loyalty of their subjects.  As for Canada, the gutting of Canada culture by the government has left us a tribes in a former nation state, although Quebec is still able to act as a nation state for some reason, it too is cracking as evidenced by the waning support for independence.   
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Offline Lumber

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Re: Canadian Values do not include Canada for younger generation
« Reply #11 on: October 06, 2016, 08:48:26 »
The Nation State is a post colonial contrivance in the ME and Africa doomed to immediate failure in the face of ethnic loyalty.  In the west it was bore out of wars of absolutism and submission to a single ruler or ruling concept morphing from the God given ruler (except the Commonwealth) to some form of political system.  Later in the West the nation state was defined by it's industrial prosperity and the working together to bring that birthright to all members of the nation state.  Those rulers, that prosperity is almost gone and the political system is in much disrepute. 

The all doctrines of our political elite is simply partisan and corrupt, plus we no longer teach citizenship to our youth.  Now our new government is beginning to act like we are a borderless state or post nation state.  So no one really believes in the nation state anymore.  The nation state itself is only valid if it is homogeneous, most nation states are no longer so but China and Russia who have very little minorities are still effective at commanding the loyalty of their subjects.  As for Canada, the gutting of Canada culture by the government has left us a tribes in a former nation state, although Quebec is still able to act as a nation state for some reason, it too is cracking as evidenced by the waning support for independence.

I disagree. As has been said, when the nation state fails, people will identify along ethnic/tribal lines. What does that leave us in Canada? I literally have zero identity other than as a Canadian. I don't have an strong, extended family roots and no particularly identifiable culture (other than Canadian), and I don't see much of that in a lot of Canadians (except Quebec).

Maybe I'm of the minority with this, but if the idea of "Canada" nation-state fails (which I don't think it is), then literally the next indefinable group that I can lean on and associate with is my immediate family (well, there is the military, but that to me is also part of the nation state).
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Offline Lightguns

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Re: Canadian Values do not include Canada for younger generation
« Reply #12 on: October 06, 2016, 08:52:30 »
I would modify my statement to add that Canadian is one of the tribes in Canada.  But it is a faction, not a majority.  I am sure that there would be those that would ID as Canadian in a failed Canada.  There are a lot more that would ID as a religion, as a province group, as racial group, as a local area group.  The potential tribes in Canada is pretty unlimited. 
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Online Chris Pook

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Re: Canadian Values do not include Canada for younger generation
« Reply #13 on: October 06, 2016, 11:49:38 »
Canadian tribes?

First Nations, obviously.
Quebecois - but not necessarily a monoblock.
Maritimers.
Newfs.
Westerners (to include Northern Ontario and the BC Interior).
Lower Mainland and Vancouver Island.
GTA (to include Southern Ontario).
Montreal (to include Ottawa).
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Offline Lightguns

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Re: Canadian Values do not include Canada for younger generation
« Reply #14 on: October 06, 2016, 12:14:42 »
Canadian tribes?

First Nations, obviously.
Quebecois - but not necessarily a monoblock.
Maritimers.
Newfs.
Westerners (to include Northern Ontario and the BC Interior).
Lower Mainland and Vancouver Island.
GTA (to include Southern Ontario).
Montreal (to include Ottawa).

Those are our current divisions, lets look at the martimes:

Acadians in North NB
Acadians in South NS
Three FN groups
Cape Breton
PEI
Halifax area
Anglo South NB
Each group would make a play to include living space from rural areas. 

Really we need to look at the dissolution of Yugoslavia as a model to see how the multi ethnic state crumbles.  Towns, cities, districts, distinct ethnic groups and distinct geographical locations fracture.  although there are political and culture differences between Yugo and Canada, there are is cause to review the model in the case of Canada devolving.  Big difference is I doubt there will be any UN blue hats coming to our rescue as our resources will prove a temptation for economic and military big three.
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Offline Pusser

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Re: Canadian Values do not include Canada for younger generation
« Reply #15 on: October 06, 2016, 12:56:54 »
Really we need to look at the dissolution of Yugoslavia as a model to see how the multi ethnic state crumbles.  Towns, cities, districts, distinct ethnic groups and distinct geographical locations fracture.  although there are political and culture differences between Yugo and Canada, there are is cause to review the model in the case of Canada devolving.  Big difference is I doubt there will be any UN blue hats coming to our rescue as our resources will prove a temptation for economic and military big three.

Good example of what ethnic division can do, but I think it would be tough to argue that the blue hats rescued former Yugoslavia.  Individual parts of the UN force managed to do some amazing things, but it was not until IFOR/SFOR arrived that any real "rescuing" was done.

On a different note, I can't help but think that education may have something to do with this.  For years now, the education system across the country has exposed a lot of our sordid past (residential schools, Chinese head tax, Japanese internment, rejection of Jews, etc.), but done little to educate the population on those things we should be damn proud of.  There is no denying that there are a few episodes of our history of which we should be rightfully appalled, but there many others in which we can take great pride.  We need to talk about those more.
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Offline Lightguns

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Re: Canadian Values do not include Canada for younger generation
« Reply #16 on: October 06, 2016, 13:05:52 »
There is a really good book by a Canadian Colonel who was paid to watch internal trends.  He put together a scenario for the early 2000s that is a bit dated now but is a good read in how quickly Canada could disappear into civil war without strong central Canadian identity and support; "Uprising" by Douglas Bland.
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Online Chris Pook

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Re: Canadian Values do not include Canada for younger generation
« Reply #17 on: October 06, 2016, 13:10:59 »
Those are our current divisions, lets look at the martimes:

Acadians in North NB
Acadians in South NS
Three FN groups
Cape Breton
PEI
Halifax area
Anglo South NB
Each group would make a play to include living space from rural areas. 

Really we need to look at the dissolution of Yugoslavia as a model to see how the multi ethnic state crumbles.  Towns, cities, districts, distinct ethnic groups and distinct geographical locations fracture.  although there are political and culture differences between Yugo and Canada, there are is cause to review the model in the case of Canada devolving.  Big difference is I doubt there will be any UN blue hats coming to our rescue as our resources will prove a temptation for economic and military big three.

Agreed entirely Lightguns.

Ultimately centrifugal forces will exploit any dividing lines ..... until you are right back to the dining table.  And even there there is no guarantee of harmony and unity.
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Re: Canadian Values do not include Canada for younger generation
« Reply #18 on: October 06, 2016, 13:54:13 »
The question is - how far from the dinner table do your allegiances extend.
That was EXACTLY the phrase I heard used by people directly touched by the Yugoslav war in the 90's - a lot.

There is a really good book by a Canadian Colonel who was paid to watch internal trends.  He put together a scenario for the early 2000s that is a bit dated now but is a good read in how quickly Canada could disappear into civil war without strong central Canadian identity and support; "Uprising" by Douglas Bland.
All I'll say about this book is that it's a cool read, but it's based on a level of uniform, centralized C&C on the part of the OPFOR that is IMHO unlikely to happen anytime soon - or ever.

A better, more focused read by the same author, dealing more with specific vulnerabilities (none of which are based on Canadian identity), taking advantage of them and what to do to cancel them out, would be this (52 page PDF).
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Offline Colin P

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Re: Canadian Values do not include Canada for younger generation
« Reply #19 on: October 06, 2016, 15:55:00 »


On a different note, I can't help but think that education may have something to do with this.  For years now, the education system across the country has exposed a lot of our sordid past (residential schools, Chinese head tax, Japanese internment, rejection of Jews, etc.), but done little to educate the population on those things we should be damn proud of.  There is no denying that there are a few episodes of our history of which we should be rightfully appalled, but there many others in which we can take great pride.  We need to talk about those more.

exactly, it's all negative teaching and guilt complexing

Offline Thucydides

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Re: Canadian Values do not include Canada for younger generation
« Reply #20 on: October 07, 2016, 01:01:07 »
An interesting counterpart to this discussion is the growth of the so called "Alt Right", which is still a rather nebulous concept, but generally embraces nationalism vs globalism, and advocates attaching to some sort of identity or identifier (I have seen "Alt-White", which is pretty much like it sounds, "Alt-West" which often involves a strong Christian identity component as they define Christianity as one of the pillars of Western civilization, and even "Alt-Lite", who are more or less people who are not satisfied with the way things are arranged right now, but have not chosen an "identity", so are essentially without a "tribe").

In some senses this is a mirror image of leftist identity politics, where the traditional memes of liberalism (properly identified), Individual liberty, freedom of speech and association, unfettered use of property and the Rule of Law are essentially linked to the Alt-Right identity group of choice. A typical Alt West argument would suggest that liberalism can only exist in Christian societies since these societies are the ones which developed these ideas and institutions in the first place.

This is a riff from Samuel Huntington's ideas developed in the The Clash of Civilizations, which spoke of "Civilizations" as being defined by their interpretation of ideas like human rights, justice, rule of law and the role of citizens in society. Certainly there is a strong case that modern Progressivism and Socialism in general are alien ideas to Enlightenment Western civilizations, built as they are on individualism rather than collectivism. One can argue that manifestations like the Brexit and Donald Trump are expressions of the "Alt-Right", and symbols of its growth and development.

In long discussions over coffee with my politically minded friends they mostly discount the idea that Canada's political system or institutional culture would support or allow the rise of a Canadian Donald Trump, which suggests that these feelings of disconnect among younger Canadians will have different outlets; possibly ones we would rather not see.....
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Re: Canadian Values do not include Canada for younger generation
« Reply #21 on: October 07, 2016, 02:28:29 »
exactly, it's all negative teaching and guilt complexing

No, no.  It's deprogramming.  What you and I learned was propaganda.  /sarcasm
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Re: Canadian Values do not include Canada for younger generation
« Reply #22 on: October 07, 2016, 02:53:29 »
An interesting counterpart to this discussion is the growth of the so called "Alt Right", which is still a rather nebulous concept, but generally embraces nationalism vs globalism, and advocates attaching to some sort of identity or identifier (I have seen "Alt-White", which is pretty much like it sounds, "Alt-West" which often involves a strong Christian identity component as they define Christianity as one of the pillars of Western civilization, and even "Alt-Lite", who are more or less people who are not satisfied with the way things are arranged right now, but have not chosen an "identity", so are essentially without a "tribe").

In some senses this is a mirror image of leftist identity politics, where the traditional memes of liberalism (properly identified), Individual liberty, freedom of speech and association, unfettered use of property and the Rule of Law are essentially linked to the Alt-Right identity group of choice. A typical Alt West argument would suggest that liberalism can only exist in Christian societies since these societies are the ones which developed these ideas and institutions in the first place.

This is a riff from Samuel Huntington's ideas developed in the The Clash of Civilizations, which spoke of "Civilizations" as being defined by their interpretation of ideas like human rights, justice, rule of law and the role of citizens in society. Certainly there is a strong case that modern Progressivism and Socialism in general are alien ideas to Enlightenment Western civilizations, built as they are on individualism rather than collectivism. One can argue that manifestations like the Brexit and Donald Trump are expressions of the "Alt-Right", and symbols of its growth and development.

In long discussions over coffee with my politically minded friends they mostly discount the idea that Canada's political system or institutional culture would support or allow the rise of a Canadian Donald Trump, which suggests that these feelings of disconnect among younger Canadians will have different outlets; possibly ones we would rather not see.....
You're like the chiral version of Walter Sobchak, where instead of everything being about the tragedy of the war in Vietnam everything is instead about the dangers of leftists, progressives and socialists.

Which I still find rather funny considering Western militaries are some of the most progressive and socialist institutions on the planet.

Be that as it all may, Canadian millenials are likely less patriotic for many of the same reasons that at least one modern generation before was likely less patriotic; that generation would be the 'boomers during their early adulthood.  If a powerful subset of one's parents and parents' parents have more or less openly conspired with the blessing of the state to leave behind a generally less secure, less generally prosperous world (which isn't really a subjective matter of education) then it can be hardly surprising that uplifting notions like good national character no matter how true bring little more than cold comfort, if not sneers of derision.

Offline Colin P

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Re: Canadian Values do not include Canada for younger generation
« Reply #23 on: October 07, 2016, 10:28:14 »
The Vietnam war might have been short circuited if Truman had not supported the French re-claiming it's colonies, the US resisted getting drawn in till it became evident that the Communists had no such concerns. Chin Peng confirmed in his book that Communist China did have a "domino plan" for SE Asia. Where the US failed was in exploiting the historical tensions between China and Vietnam. By 1973, North Vietnam had exhausted itself, had the US remained in south Vietnam, the peace treaty would have held and perhaps we would be seeing a reunification of the country under a less authoritarian government. The US worried far more about civilian causality than the North Vietnamese government ever did. 

Offline jollyjacktar

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Re: Canadian Values do not include Canada for younger generation
« Reply #24 on: October 07, 2016, 10:46:33 »
But now, looking at what Vietnam has become today.  Is it a nasty country?  Are the people oppressed or their neighbors as in NK?  I have never travelled there, or intend to but in speaking with westerners who choose to live there nowadays, they speak well of the place.   :dunno:
I'm just like the CAF, I seem to have retention issues.