Author Topic: The Myth that Canada has NO CULTURE  (Read 11024 times)

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Offline George Wallace

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The Myth that Canada has NO CULTURE
« on: September 16, 2016, 08:18:46 »
It upsets me to read things like this and comments that we as Canadians have no culture.  It really makes me wonder how flimsy the thought processes of the people making those comments are.

Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.

Quote
Trudeau says Canada has no ‘core identity’
BY CANDICE MALCOLM
FIRST POSTED: WEDNESDAY, SEPTEMBER 14, 2016 09:23 PM EDT | UPDATED: WEDNESDAY, SEPTEMBER 14, 2016 09:33 PM EDT

Who would have thought Canadian values could be so controversial?

Plenty of ink has been spilt in the past few weeks over the suddenly taboo topic of promoting Canadian values.

The consensus from Canada’s elites has been to condemn the very idea of listing our values, let alone asking newcomers to respect and adhere to them.

But a far more controversial idea about Canadian values and identity was recently proposed by our very own prime minister. And the media barely batted an eyelash.

Late last year, Justin Trudeau told the New York Times that Canada is becoming a new kind of country, not defined by our history or European national origins, but by a “pan-cultural heritage”.

“There is no core identity, no mainstream in Canada,” Trudeau said, concluding that he sees Canada as “the first post-national state.”

Even the New York Times called the suggestion “radical.”

Despite Trudeau’s bizarre musings, Canada has a proud history and strong traditions.

Canada has never been a homogeneous society — defined by a single race or ethnicity — but that doesn’t mean we don’t have a distinct culture and identity.

Our identity is rooted in our history, and it’s impossible to divorce the two.

Canada’s democratic values and traditions date back over 800 years, to the signing of the Magna Carta by our political ancestors.

That document helped enshrine our natural rights and freedoms, and limited the government’s ability to impose its powers.

Canada, perhaps more than any other Western country, is a living manifestation of that great document.

We live in the greatest country in the world. My biased opinion aside, the Reputation Institute ranked Canada as the most admired country in the world.

Our peaceful, free, fair and just society is the envy of the world. That is why so many people around the world want to come to Canada. They want to adopt our values.

But Trudeau takes this all for granted.

He doesn’t think there is anything special about Canadian history or traditions.

Instead, he suggests Canada is nothing but an intellectual construct and a hodgepodge of various people, from various backgrounds, who just happen to live side by side in the territory known as Canada.

Trudeau seems embarrassed, even ashamed of our Western culture and values.

Far from standing up for Canada and promoting our core principles at home and abroad, Trudeau frequently apologizes for Canada.

That’s why he feels no shame in speaking at a segregated mosque, where women and girls are forbidden from entering through the front door, or sitting in the main hall.

He can call himself a “feminist” while also tolerating the subjugation and segregation of women, when it suits his political interests.

That is also why, while in China, Trudeau told the one-party authoritarian state that Canada, too, is imperfect when it comes to human rights.

Trudeau blurred the distinction between Canada’s peaceful, free society and that of a communist dictatorship.

He equated Canada — a democratic country that always strives for peace, justice, liberty and equality — to a closed regime with a sordid history.

Trudeau is wrong when it comes to our values and our identity. And his ideas are far more controversial than the proposed vetting of newcomers.




- Malcolm is the author of Losing True North: Justin Trudeau’s Assault on Canadian Citizenship. Readers are invited to attend her Toronto book signing event, at 5:30, Friday, Sept 16. Please register at: www.LosingTrueNorth.ca 



LINK.
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Offline Jed

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Re: The Myth that Canada has NO CULTURE
« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2016, 08:29:07 »
This premise is so in error, it is laughable.

Our rich history and the many great people of of nation are placed in a poor light and shown an immense lack of respect when statement s like this are floated by foolish individuals. How a sitting Prime Minister can buy into this type of claptrap is beyond me.
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Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: The Myth that Canada has NO CULTURE
« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2016, 09:02:54 »
I'll tell you how the PM is buying into that claptrap: That's his old man's view on the world and Canada in particular.

Trudeau senior did not believe in nationalism of any kind, only personnel intellectual constructs and personnel views of the world. He did not recognize national symbols, national feelings or national cultures. He was also one who did the most, while in office, to erase then existing national symbols (and in particular in trying to remove any and all reference to the Crown of Canada).

I much prefer this guy's views:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/thenational/rex-murphy-on-canadian-values-1.3764922

Offline milnews.ca

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Re: The Myth that Canada has NO CULTURE
« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2016, 09:57:02 »
Since seems to be an appetite in these parts to discuss Canadian values, let's check the original NYT story to see if there was anything that the Toronto Sun piece didn't have room to include ...
Quote
... Trudeau’s most radical argument is that Canada is becoming a new kind of state, defined not by its European history but by the multiplicity of its identities from all over the world. His embrace of a pan-cultural heritage makes him an avatar of his father’s vision. ‘‘There is no core identity, no mainstream in Canada,’’ he claimed. ‘‘There are shared values — openness, respect, compassion, willingness to work hard, to be there for each other, to search for equality and justice. Those qualities are what make us the first postnational state.’’ ...
Pretty hippy-dippy, sandal-wearing, anti-British/monarchist subversive stuff there, eh?  I sure can see how the Sun sees the PM as "embarrassed, even ashamed of our Western culture and values."  Nobody likes the media taking things out of context -- unless we like it when the media takes things out of context, right? ;)
 
To further add to the debate, here's an FB post I shared this week, sharing here, too, to further feed the discussion:
Quote
Found a certificate my dad received in 1959 from the IODE when he became a Canadian citizen. Here's what they listed as "the ancient liberties of the British Peoples":
- Freedom of Speech
- Freedom of Assembly
- Free Exercise of Religion
- Free Democratic Government

Here's what they listed as Duties:
- Fear and Love of God ("Our laws do not suffer blasphemy")
- Loyalty to Her Majesty the Queen ("To Her Realm of Canada, to Her Commonwealth and to Her Empire - our laws do not suffer sedition")
- Respect for Law and Order ("Weapons are unnecessary. Our Courts provide for the righting of wrongs.")
- Respect for our Systems of Education and Government ("Our free and democratic system of government provides for changes by constitutional means.")
- The Casting Off of Old Hatreds ("Canada has set her feet upon the paths of peace, at home and among the nations of the world.")

With all the recent talk of values and measuring thereof, thought I'd share a version from almost 60 years ago. No comment offered, but sharing FYI.
I much prefer this guy's views:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/thenational/rex-murphy-on-canadian-values-1.3764922
Good one -- here's a list from that video:
Quote
-- "military values"
-- "love of the land"
-- "expanded notions of tolerance"
-- the Leafs & Kraft Dinner
-- mercy & courage seen in response to Cirillo's assassination
-- courage & stamina seen in Calgary floods/Ft. Mac fires
-- "intelligence and nerve - a rare ideal" from Trudeau Sr./Peter Lougheed
-- hospitality seen in Canada's help with 9-11
-- endurance in an ordinary Canadian as seen in Terry Fox
-- quiet character in a star like Wayne Gretzky
Feel free to mesh/mix into an agreed-to list -- or feel free to continue bashing away based on one line from a NYT article taken out of context.
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Offline Jed

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Re: The Myth that Canada has NO CULTURE
« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2016, 10:17:51 »
Good stuff milnews.ca

Can't see how one makes the leap from Respect for Law and Order to  Wpns are unnecessary, however.


Taken from your posted values list:

- Respect for Law and Order ("Weapons are unnecessary. Our Courts provide for the righting of wrongs.")
« Last Edit: September 16, 2016, 19:43:16 by Jed »
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Offline milnews.ca

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Re: The Myth that Canada has NO CULTURE
« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2016, 10:32:51 »
Taken from your posted values list:

- Respect for Law and Order ("Weapons are unnecessary. Our Courts provide for the righting of wrongs.")
It maaaaaaaaaaay be that in those days, some foreigners were thought to be keen on settling things "out of court" because in the "old country" who trusts the courts/government?  ;D
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Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: The Myth that Canada has NO CULTURE
« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2016, 11:14:15 »
I suspect the "old country" in mind here is the American "Wild" West.

The last "gunslinger" duels in the US West were fought around the turn of the 19th to the 20th century. That is only about 60 years removed from when that document was issued. And since today many Europeans still arrive in North America thinking they will see "indians" in full plumage, and the West still wild, imagine how things would have been in 1959  ;D.

Offline mariomike

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Re: The Myth that Canada has NO CULTURE
« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2016, 11:43:41 »
It upsets me to read things like this and comments that we as Canadians have no culture.

No culture? Like they say, we are multi-cultural!  :)

Anyone old enough to remember, King of Kensington?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrP8mjsmy8U

The last "gunslinger" duels in the US West were fought around the turn of the 19th to the 20th century.

That's when the automobile was invented. Cars don't kill, people do!  :)


« Last Edit: September 16, 2016, 13:05:48 by mariomike »
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Offline jmt18325

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Re: The Myth that Canada has NO CULTURE
« Reply #8 on: September 16, 2016, 15:39:12 »
Canada is a country of immigration, and Canada's culture really is ever shifting and changing.  That isn't a bad thing in the slightest.

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Re: The Myth that Canada has NO CULTURE
« Reply #9 on: September 16, 2016, 17:24:28 »
Canada is a country of immigration, and Canada's culture really is ever shifting and changing.  That isn't a bad thing in the slightest.

It's a bad thing if the culture shifts towards one that segregates women and pushes for Sharia law.

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Offline MARS

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Re: The Myth that Canada has NO CULTURE
« Reply #10 on: September 16, 2016, 17:44:38 »
A bit of a rant from Desmond Cole at the Toronto Star, but here is his recent article nonetheless, shared IAW the Fair Dealing Provisions of the Copyright Act

https://www.thestar.com/opinion/commentary/2016/09/15/suspicion-of-immigrants-is-a-canadian-value-cole.html


Quote
Suspicion of immigrants is a Canadian value: Cole

Conservative MP and party leadership contender Kellie Leitch doesn’t really want a conversation on Canadian values. The callous Leitch, who has been insisting lately that we consider a values test for prospective immigrants, simply wants to boost her brand by playing to racist and xenophobic fears of some Conservative party supporters. Modern conservative groups keep questioning immigrants’ values because they know their liberal political opponents, who are prone to the same prejudiced scapegoating, will struggle to condemn them.

Many have criticized Leitch’s proposal by saying it is impractical, since no one person or group can define or determine Canadian values. That’s a nice idea, but in practice we know the values our politicians attempt to sell us are a reflection of our colonial, white, British, monarchical heritage. There are such things as Canadian values, and they explain how our politicians have been peddling a fear of foreigners for the last 150 years.

Suspicion of all immigrants who are not white, or are not members of the former British Empire, is a Canadian value. Canada’s founding prime minister, John A. Macdonald, argued that Chinese immigrants to Canada were unfit to vote because they exhibited “no British instincts or British feelings or aspirations.” Macdonald didn’t need to cloak the authority of the state in the language of wanting a “conversation” about immigrants, as Leitch does today. In his time, there was no conversation to be had.

Assurances that we no longer live in the 19th century are beside the point. Every politician from Macdonald to Leitch has been able to bank on significant support by distinguishing between British or Canadian values and those of everyone else. Yes, even many newer immigrants echo these suspicions of outsiders’ customs or beliefs. They may hail from countries that our government is wary of. The pressure on these newcomers to conform — to validate the wisdom of the system that chose them, to scrutinize those who come after them — must be overwhelming.

Of course, all of this is only possible because of another fundamental Canadian value: erasure. Our modern mythology suggests that indigenous people were never here, or that if they were, their values and customs gave way to a superior British way of life. Our history books and our educational resources for prospective new Canadians have little to say about the values and traditions of indigenous people. British colonialism made outsiders of people who had been here for thousands of years, and cast their values aside.

That’s how a white man in a red coat who carries a weapon and patrols stolen land has come to symbolize the enforcement of Canadian values. We are taught to honour the force Mounties used to Anglicize this land, to view the guy in red as a symbol of honour and patriotism, no matter what despicable crimes he carries out. The values of dominance and separation enforced by the modern RCMP, and the Canadian Border Services Agency, are not universal or self-evident — they are steeped in centuries of racism, colonialism, and white supremacy.

Leitch may not win her leadership contest, but the fact her naked appeal to prejudice can still spur “debate” in this country says it all. Polls suggest a majority of Canadians agree with Leitch’s call to screen immigrants for good values. Few of us really care about the content of the questionnaire. What we care about is our very Canadian right to demand that immigrants be questioned, scrutinized, and weighed against the comfort and well-being of those already established here.

Conservatives are more likely to support the traditional dominant values openly. It was Leitch who announced a 2015 Conservative campaign proposal to create a “barbaric cultural practices hotline.” Prime Minister Justin Trudeau, who has cast himself as being far more progressive on immigration and cultural issues, had little to say about the Macarthyist snitch line — Trudeau and his party had quietly voted in favour of a Conservative law called the “Zero Tolerance for Barbaric Cultural Practices Act” only four months before the election.

Maybe one day, we will be able to have genuine conversations about human values that transcend not only borders, but so many other ideological barriers we still use to divide one another. For the moment, the state and its actors keep pretending there is something especially benevolent about being Canadian, and the culture wars continue.


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Offline jmt18325

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Re: The Myth that Canada has NO CULTURE
« Reply #11 on: September 16, 2016, 19:29:04 »
It's a bad thing if the culture shifts towards one that segregates women and pushes for Sharia law.

As a whole, that isn't happening.  Even with the Muslim population at 8% in Toronto that isn't happening.  The mosque that Trudeau visited is only segregated during prayer time, as is Muslim tradition.  As long as they aren't breaking any laws, this tradition is protected by our Constitution, as is gender disparity in the Catholic church.

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Re: The Myth that Canada has NO CULTURE
« Reply #12 on: September 16, 2016, 21:47:21 »
Quote
"Suspicion of immigrants is a Canadian value: Cole"
Or biased until proven racist? ;)
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Offline Jed

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Re: The Myth that Canada has NO CULTURE
« Reply #13 on: September 16, 2016, 23:46:45 »
A bit of a rant from Desmond Cole at the Toronto Star, but here is his recent article nonetheless, shared IAW the Fair Dealing Provisions of the Copyright Act

https://www.thestar.com/opinion/commentary/2016/09/15/suspicion-of-immigrants-is-a-canadian-value-cole.html

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Re: The Myth that Canada has NO CULTURE
« Reply #14 on: September 17, 2016, 01:10:00 »
I'll tell you how the PM is buying into that claptrap: That's his old man's view on the world and Canada in particular.

Trudeau senior did not believe in nationalism of any kind, only personnel intellectual constructs and personnel views of the world. He did not recognize national symbols, national feelings or national cultures. He was also one who did the most, while in office, to erase then existing national symbols (and in particular in trying to remove any and all reference to the Crown of Canada).

I much prefer this guy's views:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/thenational/rex-murphy-on-canadian-values-1.3764922

 :goodpost:
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Re: The Myth that Canada has NO CULTURE
« Reply #15 on: September 17, 2016, 01:14:32 »
As a whole, that isn't happening.  Even with the Muslim population at 8% in Toronto that isn't happening.  The mosque that Trudeau visited is only segregated during prayer time, as is Muslim tradition.  As long as they aren't breaking any laws, this tradition is protected by our Constitution, as is gender disparity in the Catholic church.

Quote
Alberta appeal court rules judges can overturn ‘unfair’ church edicts after man shunned by Jehovah’s Witnesses

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/religion/alberta-appeal-court-rules-judges-can-overturn-unfair-church-edicts


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Offline George Wallace

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Re: The Myth that Canada has NO CULTURE
« Reply #16 on: September 17, 2016, 09:08:52 »
Canada is a country of immigration, and Canada's culture really is ever shifting and changing.  That isn't a bad thing in the slightest.

Yes and No.  Cultures naturally evolve over time.  We have created a culture in Canada, that some fail to acknowledge, which we in doing so also want to protect it from such changes as this:

It's a bad thing if the culture shifts towards one that segregates women and pushes for Sharia law.

Unfortunately, in creating our "culture of understanding, tolerance and equality" we have naively fallen into a trap thinking that all the world's cultures would be just as accepting.  We have written a Charter of Rights and Freedoms, with which some less than ethical and less than moral elements have been able to use as a "tool" to bring their less than desirable traits to some form of 'legality'/acceptance in our society. 
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Offline George Wallace

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Re: The Myth that Canada has NO CULTURE
« Reply #17 on: September 17, 2016, 09:11:10 »
A bit of a rant from Desmond Cole at the Toronto Star, but here is his recent article nonetheless, shared IAW the Fair Dealing Provisions of the Copyright Act

https://www.thestar.com/opinion/commentary/2016/09/15/suspicion-of-immigrants-is-a-canadian-value-cole.html

Interesting that he seems to equate our Mounties history in the West to the US Army's history in the West, in the building of our two nations.  Two vastly different histories and two vastly different methods of dealing with the natives.
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Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: The Myth that Canada has NO CULTURE
« Reply #18 on: September 17, 2016, 10:01:28 »
As a whole, that isn't happening.  Even with the Muslim population at 8% in Toronto that isn't happening.  The mosque that Trudeau visited is only segregated during prayer time, as is Muslim tradition.  As long as they aren't breaking any laws, this tradition is protected by our Constitution, as is gender disparity in the Catholic church.


I find it's the optics of it.  It's basically supporting segregation in the defense that it's a religious thing. Lets face it  like Islam is hardly renown for women's rights, there's larger ramifications.
The Prime Minister wouldn't go smile and rub shoulders at an event where first Nations or Black Canadians are shoved in a back room as a part of some tradition, because this is religious doesn't make it acceptable. We need to emphasis separation of state and church, not overlook it. 

I would go so far as to suggest putting up cameras in churches and mosques to avoid what's going on in the video I posted above.
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Re: The Myth that Canada has NO CULTURE
« Reply #19 on: September 17, 2016, 10:03:44 »
Quote from: George Wallace
We have written a Charter of Rights and Freedoms, with which some less than ethical and less than moral elements have been able to use as a "tool" to bring their less than desirable traits to some form of 'legality'/acceptance in our society.
Basically having our ROEs used against us.
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Offline AbdullahD

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Re: The Myth that Canada has NO CULTURE
« Reply #20 on: September 17, 2016, 11:27:53 »

I find it's the optics of it.  It's basically supporting segregation in the defense that it's a religious thing. Lets face it  like Islam is hardly renown for women's rights, there's larger ramifications.
The Prime Minister wouldn't go smile and rub shoulders at an event where first Nations or Black Canadians are shoved in a back room as a part of some tradition, because this is religious doesn't make it acceptable. We need to emphasis separation of state and church, not overlook it. 

I would go so far as to suggest putting up cameras in churches and mosques to avoid what's going on in the video I posted above.

First off, I completely concede that Islam these days is hardly famous for espousing womens rights and I'll even go farther and say 'some' cultural spiritual leaders who do not respect the religion are making it worse.

But, the majority of our ladies, want to be segregated during prayer. A lot of them like to wear burkas and niqabs and the majority enjoy the Hijab. My wife and I were discussing a video she watched about how our women are more likely to be harrassed then Muslim men and I hold that to be true... this mentality just feeds those fears our women have.

An anecdotal story about my wife and I. We are both white reverts and we were wearing more traditional Islamic clothing one day at costco... and while I went to grab something a lady came up and started grilling my wife over wearing the hijab... sadly for the lady, my wife is no coward, so it ended on a good tone... but if a language barrier existed it could have gone very badly, because of how this lady started out.

So do we force an opinion on to people who are doing something other then what we agree with, just because we disagree with it? Now if the ladies are being oppressed, ill be the first one to speak out... but if they are happy who are we to say otherwise? My wife personally dislikes praying in front of any men... it is like i am some hoodlum when she prays... apparently she 'feels' my eyes lol... so now i highly suspect my wife would never go to the mosque if she was being forced to pray in the same room as men... and my wife doesnt even wear hijab all the time.

So now is Canadian culture how we dress, what God we pray to and by which name or is Canadian culture something bigger then that?

Reading this thread, I believe Canadian culture is something bigger then these small things. We are the people who are polite, who say sorry, we are the great north. So yes, some things we have done may allow fools to corrupt canadian values, but I wouldn't worry about religious women... at least in my opinion, because I find the religious ladies are much better then the religious men ;)

Abdullah

Ps I had a Pakistani guy who hates the west make the arguement that Canada has no culture once to me. So it just occurred to me that hate groups could take this rhetoric that Canada has no culture and make us seem weak and effeminate.
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Re: The Myth that Canada has NO CULTURE
« Reply #21 on: September 17, 2016, 11:38:05 »
Interesting that he seems to equate our Mounties history in the West to the US Army's history in the West, in the building of our two nations.  Two vastly different histories and two vastly different methods of dealing with the natives.

Not at all the same.  My great grandfather was one of the original 300 and was on the great march west in 1873.  They had good relations with the many tribes and in fact were sent to stop Americans coming up and selling rot gut whiskey to our natives (among other things).  The settlement of the west was for the most part peaceful and aside from such things as the Riel Rebellion a great success.  My  great grandfather went on to become the first white honoured with a headdress, native name and status as an honorary chief of the Peigan Band at Brocket.
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Re: The Myth that Canada has NO CULTURE
« Reply #22 on: September 17, 2016, 11:48:13 »
We are the people who are polite, who say sorry, we are the great north.

There are sometimes exceptions.


We are both white reverts and we were wearing more traditional Islamic clothing one day at costco...

I think folks at GTA Costco are likely to be more concerned with parking than wardrobe.
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« Last Edit: September 17, 2016, 12:27:23 by mariomike »
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Offline Jarnhamar

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Re: The Myth that Canada has NO CULTURE
« Reply #23 on: September 17, 2016, 11:49:48 »
Good points Abdullah, thanks for shining a light on the other side.

If Muslim women want to wear Burkas and be segregated in a mosque that's their business though when you say the majority of your* women want to wear it and be segregated I can't help but imagine a number of them do so out of fear- the same way abused women inconceivably stay with their abusers.

Issues for me arise when Muslim men (and women) take that segregation mindset they're so comfortable inside a mosque (PM approved) and bring it out to public. Women being verbally and physically assaulted because of how they dress (of course that's a two way street with Muslim women assaulted too).
Furthermore that mindset transcends to classrooms, gyms, pools, clubs etc.. as we've discussed in other threads.

You say the majority of Muslim women enjoy the Burka etc.. because they're more likely to be harassed by Muslim men and (I'm paraphrasing) this some how helps? Perhaps wearing it and being segregated simply feeds into atmosphere of harassment.  If I had a female subordinate who was being harassed by her peers I wouldn't tell her to cover up and eat/socialize away from the men to fix the problem.

*I'm sure it's not the case with you but this could be viewed in the context that women are property considering the Quran's views on women, yes?
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Offline AbdullahD

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Re: The Myth that Canada has NO CULTURE
« Reply #24 on: September 17, 2016, 12:19:52 »
Good points Abdullah, thanks for shining a light on the other side.

If Muslim women want to wear Burkas and be segregated in a mosque that's their business though when you say the majority of your* women want to wear it and be segregated I can't help but imagine a number of them do so out of fear- the same way abused women inconceivably stay with their abusers.

Issues for me arise when Muslim men (and women) take that segregation mindset they're so comfortable inside a mosque (PM approved) and bring it out to public. Women being verbally and physically assaulted because of how they dress (of course that's a two way street with Muslim women assaulted too).
Furthermore that mindset transcends to classrooms, gyms, pools, clubs etc.. as we've discussed in other threads.

You say the majority of Muslim women enjoy the Burka etc.. because they're more likely to be harassed by Muslim men and (I'm paraphrasing) this some how helps? Perhaps wearing it and being segregated simply feeds into atmosphere of harassment.  If I had a female subordinate who was being harassed by her peers I wouldn't tell her to cover up and eat/socialize away from the men to fix the problem.

*I'm sure it's not the case with you but this could be viewed in the context that women are property considering the Quran's views on women, yes?

Valid points and in some cases you are 100% right. But I am here to argue it is the minority that this is right for.

Maybe I messed up with my thoughts, if you got women wear the burka, hijab, niqab to please their men or avoid harassment. Now I am not saying sometimes that they do, but the Majority do it because they wish to please god. Modesty is a respected and honored characteristic in Islam, so some ladies feel that wearing burkas and niqabs show or make them feel more modest... and thus closer to god.

I am having a hard time trying to figure out how to communicate how or why women like to pray separate from men... maybe I will do it in reverse? Lets say I am praying and a hot women starts praying in front of me it is hard not to check her out... so being segregated takes that temptation and desire out... hmm, that sounds wrong.. also makes me sound like a pig lol

Anywho I will leave off that line for now.

We dont wish our women to be segregated to avoid being harrassed and neither do they wish to be. A very great many of us Muslim guys, have daughters, sisters and all of us have mothers, we are generally fairly well adjusted folk and lets just put it this way... if my daughter  or wife comes and tells me she wants to pray apart from the men, because they are being harrassed... their will be a fight and the pigs harrassing the women wont like it, but up to this point in my travels I have not heard this used as the arguement for separated prayer rooms. Albeit my opinion is that it is not obligatory to be seperated and I can quote scholars and instances all the way back to the prophet to support my point of view.

I'll ask my wife, likely I have it all wrong anyways, I really dont know how ladies think.. at all. If she has anything enlightening to add, ill throw it into one of the other Islam threads so we dont completely hijack this one lol

Sorry I could not properly explain, probably be easier if I was a lady ;)

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