Author Topic: Domestic and Arctic Mobility Enhancement Project  (Read 54340 times)

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Offline Chris Pook

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Domestic and Arctic Mobility Enhancement Project
« on: January 17, 2016, 16:10:49 »
While we are in the game of opining....

I wonder if there is any appetite to move the DAME project timelines forwards.  One reason for wondering is the confluence of policy

Quote
Renew Canada’s focus on surveillance and control of Canadian territory and approaches, particularly our Arctic regions, and increase the size of the Canadian Rangers.
http://pm.gc.ca/eng/minister-national-defence-mandate-letter

and technology



This is the new BAE Hagglunds BvS10 Beowulf - an UNarmoured version of the Viking used by the Royal Marines and the Royal Netherlands Marines.


In 1987 Perrin Beatty, in his Challenge and Commitment white paper, to anchor his Domestic Force (The SSF + Militia Brigades + Vital Point troops (Security Guards with Guns)) on a mixed fleet of



820 to be purchased and built in Calgary by Foremost

And 199 of these (or similar)




I thought then, and I still think, that on that score Minister Beatty had it about right.

The Bv206, supplied to the Militia Service Battalions across the country, and prepositioned in the north, would make for a "poor man's helicopter", supplying a platform that would access the 70% of the country that isn't accessible by road and would permit access when the roads are impassable, as during domestic disasters.   It would also permit realistic off-road training by both regs and reserves.  And finally, it is an excellent expeditionary vehicle being transportable by air and can swim off a ship.

Unfortunately the Bv206, although more than 10,000 were built, was taken out of production and allowed to become obsolete.  And the only way to acquire the capability was to buy armoured vehicles, in particular the Viking.



In Afghanistan the value of the vehicle was demonstrated by both the PPCLI and the Royal Marines (in armoured form).  That spurred a renewed interest which generated competition in the form of the Singapore Technologies / General Dynamics competitor, the Bronco. Also armoured.

While both the Viking and Bronco are apparently great pieces of kit they suffer from being armoured.  This drives up purchase price and operating costs.  It also drives down payload, mobility and transportability.

What was missing was an unarmoured, cheap, replacement for the original Bv206.  The Beowulf is apparently that replacement - 30 years in the making.

Additional info is available at these links:

http://www.military-today.com/trucks/bvs10_beowulf.htm

http://www.armyrecognition.com/united_kingdom_british_army_light_armoured_vehicle/bvs10_beowulf_all-terrain_tracked_vehicle_technical_data_sheet_specifications_description_pictures_video_12509156.html

As noted above Beatty proposed a fleet of 820 Bv206s and 199 Bisons.  I think his numbers are still about right. But instead of the Bv206s and Bisons I  would be proposing Beowulfs and Vikings - in the same strengths.

A Transport Platoon of 30 to 40 Beowulfs in each Territorial Battalion Group would permit training and a quick response to domestic emergencies.  Together with prepositioned vehicles in the north at the Air Forces FOLs, Resolute and Nanisivik that adds up to 300 to 500 vehicles.  Put some more into the Regs hands, some in storage and some onboard the CSCs..... :) ...... some armoured and you quickly find yourself back up around the 1000 vehicle mark.

And if you don't like the Hagglunds, we can always get a Canadian made knock-off through General Dynamics supplying Singapore Technologies new UNarmoured version of the Bronco, the Extremv




I know it is to dream, and I know we must wait for the new white paper in 2017 but ..... in the words of my daughter, "Maaaaaaybe". 





"Wyrd bið ful aræd"

Offline Thucydides

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Re: Domestic and Arctic Mobility Enhancement Project
« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2016, 11:50:13 »
I like how you are thinking  ;)

If the TAPV program were to collapse, that might be a very interesting way of gaining much of the capabilitiy the program was initiated to provide.
Dagny, this is not a battle over material goods. It's a moral crisis, the greatest the world has ever faced and the last. Our age is the climax of centuries of evil. We must put an end to it, once and for all, or perish - we, the men of the mind. It was our own guilt. We produced the wealth of the world - but we let our enemies write its moral code.

Offline Colin P

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Re: Domestic and Arctic Mobility Enhancement Project
« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2016, 12:34:24 »
License built in Canada would be acceptable and save us currency exchange and make the politicians happy. Seriously we sort of created this niche, we should own it! But it has to be an existing facility that gets the contract and they need to maintain the jigs and special equipment for building them. Have the contract specify slow rate production so you get a continuous supply and the line stays open with potential other buyers.

Offline Chris Pook

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Re: Domestic and Arctic Mobility Enhancement Project
« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2016, 13:27:01 »
Somebody like these guys perhaps?



http://foremost.ca/foremost-mobile-equipment/tracked-vehicles/chieftain-c/

I wonder if the wounds have healed yet.
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Offline Colin P

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Re: Domestic and Arctic Mobility Enhancement Project
« Reply #4 on: January 26, 2016, 14:37:36 »
wounds healed, pray do tell?

Offline Chris Pook

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Re: Domestic and Arctic Mobility Enhancement Project
« Reply #5 on: January 26, 2016, 15:36:22 »
wounds healed, pray do tell?

Quote
BV-206 NTV PROJECT GETS PROD FROM ACTION-ORIENTED ALBERTA FIRM

Lack of activity on Mobile Command's Northern Terrain Vehicle (NTV) acquisition programme has prompted Hagglunds Foremost Inc. of Calgary, Alberta to issue a discussion paper in the hope of generating political support for the project. In July 1988, DND approved an acquisition of 820 Swedish BV-206 northern terrain vehicles to be used for territorial defence tasks. The same fiberglass hulled, rubber tracked over-snow vehicles was successfully used by the Canadian Air Sea Transportable (CAST) Brigade.

Hagglunds Foremost Inc. (HF) was formed in February 1989 as a joint venture between Hagglunds Vehicle AB of Sweden, manufacturer of the BV-206, and Canadian Foremost Ltd. of Calgary, Alberta to produce the vehicle in Canada. By early 1989, the firm had actually started converting Swedish technical drawings to Canadian standards and had sent out a number of information packages to potential subcontractors in expectation of a contract award by March 1990. Then came the April 1989 budget cuts. The NTV programme was reduced by half and delayed indefinitely. The company began to cut its staff. Since April the project has remained frozen. An increasingly uncertain HF is awaiting a contract to begin project definition and the NTV Project Management Office (PMO) is waiting for funding to proceed with a Canadianization study to determine which Canadian parts can be used with the BV-206. HF, on its own initiative, issued its paper.

According to Shari Pusch of Canadian Foremost Ltd., the discussion paper was prepared to update HF's internal management staff, its Board of Directors and any concerned subcontractors. The company also seeks political support. The document reminds its readers that the NTV meets Mobile Command's requirement for a vehicle which can traverse difficult terrain and that the BV-206's low ground pressure minimizes risk of damage to the fragile northern ecology. The paper stresses western industrial diversity for the benefit of any politicians who need to be reminded of this well known political and regional development imperative of the current government.

While the company is conducting its private sector briefings, the NTV PMO is in a continual briefing process of its own, keeping senior DND decision makers informed. An Interdepartmental Senior Review Board (ISRB) is scheduled for today, November 29, at which representatives from DND, DSS and regional development departments will be briefed on project status. There are bright spots to the otherwise irritating situation which are keeping HF guardedly optimistic. DND is experimenting with an air droppable BV prototype which shows promise. Discussions between Hagglunds AB and Canadian Foremost Ltd. may result in HF producing BV-206s in Calgary for the U.S. Army. At present the U.S. buys its BV-206s directly from Hagglunds AB in Sweden. Lastly, the HF paper argues that when an NTV contract is finally awarded, there will be a high degree of Canadian content involved. Svante Andersson, Hagglund's representative in Ottawa, states that as much as 60 percent of the NTV may be made up of Canadian parts.

http://www.thewednesdayreport.com/twr/twr48v3.html

In other news from the same 1989 Bulletin

Quote
RESERVE UNITS TO GET NEW COMPUTERIZED PAY SYSTEM

Quote
CANADA CAUGHT SLOUCHING

For a country which has depended on others to help fulfill its military requirements and commitments, these are tough times. The ongoing fragmentation of eastern Europe and the potential dismemberment of NATO will cause grave concerns for Canada's security interests.

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Offline Fishbone Jones

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Re: Domestic and Arctic Mobility Enhancement Project
« Reply #6 on: January 26, 2016, 17:36:44 »
Northern defence was a Harper thing. Don't expect much out of the Trudeau Liberals on that front. That would mean admitting Harper was right and the Liberals would rather set themselves on fire than agree with him.
Corruption in politics doesn't scare me.
What scares me is how comfortable people are doing nothing about it.

Offline Chris Pook

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Re: Domestic and Arctic Mobility Enhancement Project
« Reply #7 on: January 26, 2016, 17:41:04 »
I don't doubt that.

But if the ChiComs can figure out how to make Capitalism Communist I am sure the LPC can figure out how to make Conservatism Liberal (they've had practice).
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Offline quadrapiper

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Re: Domestic and Arctic Mobility Enhancement Project
« Reply #8 on: January 26, 2016, 18:26:37 »
Northern defence was a Harper thing. Don't expect much out of the Trudeau Liberals on that front. That would mean admitting Harper was right and the Liberals would rather set themselves on fire than agree with him.
Northern presence, on the other hand (or at least giving the appearance of caring about "the North") has been something of an on-again, off-again bullet point for any number of governments.


Offline Colin P

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Re: Domestic and Arctic Mobility Enhancement Project
« Reply #9 on: January 27, 2016, 10:42:31 »
Northern defence and anything in the west was a Harper thing. Don't expect much out of the Trudeau Liberals on that front. That would mean admitting Harper was right and the Liberals would rather set themselves on fire than agree with him.

Fixed it for you  [:D

Online dangerboy

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Re: Domestic and Arctic Mobility Enhancement Project
« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2016, 15:32:55 »
The Army's twitter feed shows that we can easily work with the BV206 and that it is a good platform for the C16 AGLS.

Link to actual twitter post https://twitter.com/CanadianArmy/status/692761297478356993
All right, they're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us... they can't get away this time.
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Online Spencer100

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Re: Domestic and Arctic Mobility Enhancement Project
« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2016, 14:48:46 »
Here you go the Russians have the perfect solution!

http://www.autoblog.com/2016/02/12/russian-sherpa-atv-frozen-lake/

The Sperpa ATV.  It looks fun!


Offline Colin P

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Re: Domestic and Arctic Mobility Enhancement Project
« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2016, 16:14:41 »
I was planning on posting that. What I would base in the arctic for summer use is the CB-90 fast attack boats and a couple of fast vehicle landing craft. Sped in the Arctic waters can allow you to escape the ice fronts or find some shelter from them.


Offline Chris Pook

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Re: Domestic and Arctic Mobility Enhancement Project
« Reply #13 on: February 12, 2016, 16:50:36 »
I was planning on posting that. What I would base in the arctic for summer use is the CB-90 fast attack boats and a couple of fast vehicle landing craft. Sped in the Arctic waters can allow you to escape the ice fronts or find some shelter from them.



Be nice if you could get them on and off the back of the larger vessels - like the AOPSs and the CSCs as well.
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Offline Colin P

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Re: Domestic and Arctic Mobility Enhancement Project
« Reply #14 on: February 12, 2016, 17:55:24 »
We slung these POS landing craft/fuelbarge from our buoy tenders, either from the main crane or the workboat davits, big enough for large ATV's



of course the Swedes have their own ideas (thread drifting....)


Offline Thucydides

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Re: Domestic and Arctic Mobility Enhancement Project
« Reply #15 on: March 15, 2016, 00:38:27 »
Getting around on most of the terrain, water and ice is easily accomplisned by the LCAC, which also allows you to carry and deliver all kinds of "stuff" depending on the mission. For the best of all possible worlds ( ;)) LCAC's carrying troops mounted on BV-206/Bronco type MTV's gets you pretty much anywhere in the arctic and far north.

Second pic is a smaller hovercraft operating in the ice, this type is more flexible since the fans are fully steerable.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2016, 00:52:50 by Thucydides »
Dagny, this is not a battle over material goods. It's a moral crisis, the greatest the world has ever faced and the last. Our age is the climax of centuries of evil. We must put an end to it, once and for all, or perish - we, the men of the mind. It was our own guilt. We produced the wealth of the world - but we let our enemies write its moral code.

Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: Domestic and Arctic Mobility Enhancement Project
« Reply #16 on: March 15, 2016, 08:09:33 »
Actually Thuc, hovercraft operation on ice is a real bitche. It is slow, dangerous and require a lot of training because you are going over a surface that is neither solid like the ground, nor reacts like water (i.e. as "hard" if you put evenly directed high air pressure on it). Such operation is slow and perilous. Moreover, it is downright dangerous in certain conditions, such as entering frazil, where the lift is suddenly lost and the hovercraft can tip or sink by digging in. 

Look at your second picture: You can see that the hovercraft is not getting hardly any lift on the ice (the side walls show no lift) and is in fact relying on the flotation of its hull, which is not the best hull shape for speed and direction on ice.

The Coast guard uses small hovercrafts on the St Lawrence river area in the spring (only) to dispose of ice dams, but they don't quite go on the ice. They come at it from the open water side and simply lunge at the ice dam and then stop just over its edge. That way, they blow an open pocket of air under the ice's leading edge, and climbing on top of it, rest the weight of the hovercraft on that unsupported edge to break it. Very difficult work for highly experience drivers and which requires complete concentration to avoid accidents.

This said, there are people up there in the Arctic, the Inuit, who know the waters better than we do, know how to orient themselves and have been operating with small boats for a long time (Kayak at first and large aluminium fishermen's boat nowadays). If the Navy is serious about having a minimal presence on water when actual commissioned vessels are not around, I personally think that it should consider the possibility of creating a "Marine Ranger" system that could operate small, fast but effective boats whenever the waters are open (someone suggested the CB-90 - I am not convinced, but its little brother the SB90E would be a good candidate). 

Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: Domestic and Arctic Mobility Enhancement Project
« Reply #17 on: March 15, 2016, 08:35:48 »
Second pic is a smaller hovercraft operating in the ice, this type is more flexible since the fans are fully steerable.

Actually, Thuc, the LCAC is just as steerable as the smaller one, possibly more steerable. On the LCAC, the two tube like cowlings at the front (both sides) are not air intakes, they are orientable trusters used for steering. The only reason they are pointing straight forward in your picture is that this LCAC is backing full, probably a picture taken from the deck of an American phib just as it exits the well deck.

Offline Colin P

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Re: Domestic and Arctic Mobility Enhancement Project
« Reply #18 on: March 15, 2016, 10:29:29 »
Actually Thuc, hovercraft operation on ice is a real bitche. It is slow, dangerous and require a lot of training because you are going over a surface that is neither solid like the ground, nor reacts like water (i.e. as "hard" if you put evenly directed high air pressure on it). Such operation is slow and perilous. Moreover, it is downright dangerous in certain conditions, such as entering frazil, where the lift is suddenly lost and the hovercraft can tip or sink by digging in. 

Look at your second picture: You can see that the hovercraft is not getting hardly any lift on the ice (the side walls show no lift) and is in fact relying on the flotation of its hull, which is not the best hull shape for speed and direction on ice.

The Coast guard uses small hovercrafts on the St Lawrence river area in the spring (only) to dispose of ice dams, but they don't quite go on the ice. They come at it from the open water side and simply lunge at the ice dam and then stop just over its edge. That way, they blow an open pocket of air under the ice's leading edge, and climbing on top of it, rest the weight of the hovercraft on that unsupported edge to break it. Very difficult work for highly experience drivers and which requires complete concentration to avoid accidents.

This said, there are people up there in the Arctic, the Inuit, who know the waters better than we do, know how to orient themselves and have been operating with small boats for a long time (Kayak at first and large aluminium fishermen's boat nowadays). If the Navy is serious about having a minimal presence on water when actual commissioned vessels are not around, I personally think that it should consider the possibility of creating a "Marine Ranger" system that could operate small, fast but effective boats whenever the waters are open (someone suggested the CB-90 - I am not convinced, but its little brother the SB90E would be a good candidate).

I support the Marine Ranger idea, as for hovercraft, the big issue was that they actually go faster over a hard surface than water as no "bowel" is formed underneath, the limiting factor that we used for speed over ground in the SRN6 was the time it took for the bag to deflate and the hull to impact the hard surface, which meant 30Kts. Several of my Captains had served in the Arctic, lot's of good stories. the SRN6 used to suffer from "shallow water effect" which meant the bow wave would get so big the craft struggled to get over it and we would often go up onto the beach a bit to get more speed, getting over the "hump" meant getting up to over 13kts and then the craft would break over the bow wave and be able to pick up speed. With the "Econo" model of props we had reverse was not much of an option either.

Offline Thucydides

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Re: Domestic and Arctic Mobility Enhancement Project
« Reply #19 on: March 15, 2016, 11:57:58 »
Interesting discussion. The general idea that most people like me have is a hovercraft can travel over most relatively flat surfaces, including ice, beaches, muskeg or tundra. The thought I had in mind was the hovercraft can come in from the water or even run a ways up river, then deposit the load This should work along much of the arctic coast, and inside Hudson Bay. If the troops are in MTV's, then they can move further inland without much difficulty (considering the mobility of the beast).

Obviously there is a little more to it than that...
Dagny, this is not a battle over material goods. It's a moral crisis, the greatest the world has ever faced and the last. Our age is the climax of centuries of evil. We must put an end to it, once and for all, or perish - we, the men of the mind. It was our own guilt. We produced the wealth of the world - but we let our enemies write its moral code.

Offline Colin P

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Re: Domestic and Arctic Mobility Enhancement Project
« Reply #20 on: March 15, 2016, 12:23:21 »
They are great niche machines, but require a fair bit of maintenance. The AP1-800 is a far more capable than the old SRN6 or the Griffons used by the Royal Marines. The Ap1-88, USMC LCAAC and the big Russian hovercraft all share the same skirt design, based on the original BHC high/low pressure area skirt. It takes more power to run that design, but it’s more robust and capable. The Griffon and others use loop and chain (single walled) as I recall.  A google book link on hovercraft stability https://books.google.ca/books?id=aJT0gK710LwC&pg=PA136&lpg=PA136&dq=stability+in+a+hovercraft&source=bl&ots=EQQXCtYN_l&sig=RQWwdZiOmOVYeHbXvOocFZdyiSw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwij0JCSjcPLAhVonoMKHV2nAtAQ6AEIMzAD#v=onepage&q=stability%20in%20a%20hovercraft&f=false

The BHC design






Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: Domestic and Arctic Mobility Enhancement Project
« Reply #21 on: March 15, 2016, 13:09:28 »
We took LCUs and LCVPs just about everywhere in arctic Norway.

They were awesome, especially with a nice little cover over the cargo deck with hot air pumped in for those 'cool evenings' up north. As I recall, we loaded the whole company, with vehicles (BV202), on two of them for short trips. They worked nicely with the LPDs with their internal docks, of course, and we also used them in conjunction with DFDS ferries e.g., you just step off the car deck onto the LCU ramp. I recall bashing through what I thought was some fairly substantial ice in the fjords occasionally, so they seemed to be 'thin ice capable' at any rate.

"These vessels are capable of operating independently for up to 14 days with a range of 600 nautical miles. They are capable of operating world-wide, from Arctic operating areas to tropical operating areas."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landing_Craft_Utility
"The most important qualification of a soldier is fortitude under fatigue and privation. Courage is only second; hardship, poverty and want are the best school for a soldier." Napoleon

Offline Colin P

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Re: Domestic and Arctic Mobility Enhancement Project
« Reply #22 on: March 15, 2016, 13:23:05 »
And it would be quite easy to have them built here, have a couple on each coast, keep 2 in the arctic and perhaps 2 on the Great lakes. Units could work them into their training and Naval Reserves can help fill out the crews.

Offline Chris Pook

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Re: Domestic and Arctic Mobility Enhancement Project
« Reply #23 on: March 15, 2016, 15:00:27 »
Might want to throw some Mexeflotes into the mix as well - either with or without their own power modules









Modular and expandable.  Used as pontoons, dock and barges.
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Offline Colin P

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Re: Domestic and Arctic Mobility Enhancement Project
« Reply #24 on: March 15, 2016, 15:08:34 »
Lot's of nifty stuff to use, of course you need trucks and ships to transport that stuff

Offline Chris Pook

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Re: Domestic and Arctic Mobility Enhancement Project
« Reply #25 on: March 15, 2016, 16:39:07 »
You have Bvs to transport the Mexe's on land and SB90Es to tug them on water.  Where the Bvs can be loaded on the Mexe's.

And the cone licks itself.  [:D

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Offline Thucydides

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Re: Domestic and Arctic Mobility Enhancement Project
« Reply #26 on: March 16, 2016, 13:02:40 »
We can combine all this splashing around in the water with the obsession for reviving historical units, badges and patches:

Bring on the new Compagnies Franches de la Marine!

On a more serious note, a combined arms unit combining some sort of shallow draft ship (LCUs, LCVPs, Mexeflotes or hovercraft) and MTV/helicopter mobility to move troops and equipment around would seem to be just the thing for large swaths of Canada's north.
Dagny, this is not a battle over material goods. It's a moral crisis, the greatest the world has ever faced and the last. Our age is the climax of centuries of evil. We must put an end to it, once and for all, or perish - we, the men of the mind. It was our own guilt. We produced the wealth of the world - but we let our enemies write its moral code.

Offline Oldgateboatdriver

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Re: Domestic and Arctic Mobility Enhancement Project
« Reply #27 on: March 17, 2016, 20:36:01 »
Just for clarity sake, Thuc, the "Compagnies Franches de la Marine" were not embarked troops, like the Royal Marines or the US Marines are. They were French colonial troops - army in other word - raised for the land defence of the colonies. It just happens that in France, the colonies were administered by the Navy department, hence, the troops they hired and trained were called "marine"  (in the sense of Navy) troops. They however, had nothing to do with landings, expeditionary warfare, and were not even found onboard ships to help with boardings (like R.M.'s).

Offline Old Sweat

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Re: Domestic and Arctic Mobility Enhancement Project
« Reply #28 on: March 18, 2016, 00:25:26 »
Just for clarity sake, Thuc, the "Compagnies Franches de la Marine" were not embarked troops, like the Royal Marines or the US Marines are. They were French colonial troops - army in other word - raised for the land defence of the colonies. It just happens that in France, the colonies were administered by the Navy department, hence, the troops they hired and trained were called "marine"  (in the sense of Navy) troops. They however, had nothing to do with landings, expeditionary warfare, and were not even found onboard ships to help with boardings (like R.M.'s).

They also were very good at what they were raised to do!

Offline Thucydides

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Re: Domestic and Arctic Mobility Enhancement Project
« Reply #29 on: March 28, 2016, 20:48:38 »
Joking aside, any unit needing multiple modes of transport (and probably lots of different capabilities, like engineering, long distance signalling and the ability to sustain logistics in a very harsh environment in a single package) would not just be a ordinary battalion, but some sort of mini joint task force.

How such a force is organized and equipped (and what it would be expected to do) would be a very interesting discussion.
Dagny, this is not a battle over material goods. It's a moral crisis, the greatest the world has ever faced and the last. Our age is the climax of centuries of evil. We must put an end to it, once and for all, or perish - we, the men of the mind. It was our own guilt. We produced the wealth of the world - but we let our enemies write its moral code.

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Re: Domestic and Arctic Mobility Enhancement Project
« Reply #30 on: March 28, 2016, 23:05:03 »
I was just reading an Aide Memoire prepared for the Calgary Highlanders over the name of LCol H Moncrief CO, in the era of Heller Rockets and 106mm Reckless Rifles but FNs and SMGs

One of the pieces of kit available to the battalion Pioneer platoon, apparently,  was some light pontoon bridging - suitable for foot traffic light vehicles.

Quote
Aluminum Floating Bridging
One Set
472' 6" ft br
115 ft lt veh br
3 rafts for lt veh treadway 84 lbs
Pontoon - 100 lbs

Time of Erection

472'6" of ft br - 25 mins
115' of lt veh br
A-50 mins
B-25 mins

Rafts Assembled
(ea) - 10 mins

If those old fellers could figure out how to throw a bridge across a stream without the aid of engineers it can't be beyond the ken of today's bright sparks.   Except for all that OHSA paper work ......

But, this was back in the days of .30 and .50 Brownings, proper smoke grenades using WP and Special Weapons, including the M2A1 Portable Flame Thrower (72 lbs, 20-45 yds range, 6-9 bursts of 1 sec from 4.75 Imp Gals of fuel (thickened)) and the Flame Thrower Transportable Cdn No.1 Mk1 CREE (165-185 yds, 78.9 Imp Gals). Just the thing for those frosty days.

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Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: Domestic and Arctic Mobility Enhancement Project
« Reply #31 on: March 28, 2016, 23:42:09 »
Joking aside, any unit needing multiple modes of transport (and probably lots of different capabilities, like engineering, long distance signalling and the ability to sustain logistics in a very harsh environment in a single package) would not just be a ordinary battalion, but some sort of mini joint task force.

How such a force is organized and equipped (and what it would be expected to do) would be a very interesting discussion.

You mean like these guys?

The Battle of the Scheldt was a military operation in northern Belgium and the southwestern Netherlands that took place during the Second World War. On September 12, 1944, the First Canadian Army was given the task of clearing the Scheldt of German occupiers. The first attacks began on September 13, with little success.

Under the command of General Henry Duncan Graham (Harry) Crerar, the First Canadian Army was international in character. In addition to the 2nd Canadian Corps (which included the 2nd and 3rd Canadian Infantry Divisions and the 4th Canadian Armoured Division), the 1st British Corps, and the 1st Polish Armoured Division, at various times American, Belgian, and Dutch soldiers were also included as units. The First Canadian Army in northwestern Europe during the final phases of the war was a powerful force, the largest army that had ever been under the control of a Canadian general. The strength of this army ranged from approximately 105,000 to 175,000 Canadian soldiers to anywhere from 200,000 to over 450,000 when including the soldiers from other nations.

The flooded, muddy terrain and the tenacity of the well-fortified German defences made the Battle of the Scheldt especially gruelling and bloody. Indeed, the battle is considered by some historians to have been waged on the most difficult battlefield of the Second World War. At the end of the five-week offensive, the victorious First Canadian Army had taken 41,043 prisoners, but suffered 12,873 casualties (killed, wounded, or missing), 6,367 of whom were Canadians.


http://www.veterans.gc.ca/eng/remembrance/history/second-world-war/liberation-belgium-battle-scheldt

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Offline Chris Pook

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Re: Domestic and Arctic Mobility Enhancement Project
« Reply #32 on: March 29, 2016, 01:27:18 »
Of Terrapins and Buffaloes





Courtesy of Wiki -
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Re: Domestic and Arctic Mobility Enhancement Project
« Reply #33 on: March 29, 2016, 12:33:45 »
You mean like these guys?

Yes, but scaled to todays financial and political sensibilities. A unit somewhere between a reinforced Combat Team and Battlegroup in size is probably about right, and if it has the right ship/helicopter support, you could post one at Moosonee to cover James and Hudson Bay, perhaps another one at Resolute Bay to cover the NW Passage and one somewhere near the Mackenzie river delta to cover the Western high arctic.

Unlike a battlegroup of combat team, it won't have integral armour, and probably use mortars rather than artillery (if any), but bulk up on other enablers. Maybe the Mechanized Infantry Battalion of the late 1980's, with its integral Combat Support Company and Service Support Company might be a better model (HQ and SIGS Coy provides the satellite uplinks and HF trunks to southern Canada).

And given the rather specialized means of cross country transport (Terrapins and Buffaloes were good for what they had to do, but swimming, crossing swamp and muskeg and trundling over snow is probably best handled by a modern MTV like a Bronco or Viking), maybe having them grouped together in a transport company rather than integral like LAVs would work better.
Dagny, this is not a battle over material goods. It's a moral crisis, the greatest the world has ever faced and the last. Our age is the climax of centuries of evil. We must put an end to it, once and for all, or perish - we, the men of the mind. It was our own guilt. We produced the wealth of the world - but we let our enemies write its moral code.

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Re: Domestic and Arctic Mobility Enhancement Project
« Reply #34 on: March 29, 2016, 15:06:30 »
I'd swap the Integral LAVs, GS MTVs around and make the MTVs integral while brigading the LAVs/TAPVs.  Especially for DOMOPs focused units.

I note from another older winter SOP (2VP circa 1970) that only one of the 4 "rifle coys" was "mechanized".  The 3 "rifle coys actual" were motorized on wheels but were to be prepared for foot borne warfare (as was the "mechanized" coy).

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Re: Domestic and Arctic Mobility Enhancement Project
« Reply #35 on: March 30, 2016, 10:55:31 »
I think the Brits have a lightweight foot bridge they can deploy at hand. Working with the School of Military Engineering in Chillwack in the 80's I was mighty impressed by them constructing a Baily bridge over a creek at night under tactical conditions and by hand only.

Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: Domestic and Arctic Mobility Enhancement Project
« Reply #36 on: March 30, 2016, 17:28:01 »
Yes, but scaled to todays financial and political sensibilities. A unit somewhere between a reinforced Combat Team and Battlegroup in size is probably about right, and if it has the right ship/helicopter support, you could post one at Moosonee to cover James and Hudson Bay, perhaps another one at Resolute Bay to cover the NW Passage and one somewhere near the Mackenzie river delta to cover the Western high arctic.

Unlike a battlegroup of combat team, it won't have integral armour, and probably use mortars rather than artillery (if any), but bulk up on other enablers. Maybe the Mechanized Infantry Battalion of the late 1980's, with its integral Combat Support Company and Service Support Company might be a better model (HQ and SIGS Coy provides the satellite uplinks and HF trunks to southern Canada).

And given the rather specialized means of cross country transport (Terrapins and Buffaloes were good for what they had to do, but swimming, crossing swamp and muskeg and trundling over snow is probably best handled by a modern MTV like a Bronco or Viking), maybe having them grouped together in a transport company rather than integral like LAVs would work better.

One of the best over snow vehicles I've seen in action is a Leopard tank... just sayin'
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Offline George Wallace

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Re: Domestic and Arctic Mobility Enhancement Project
« Reply #37 on: March 30, 2016, 18:34:14 »
One of the best over snow vehicles I've seen in action is a Leopard tank... just sayin'

Let me tell you,  at times a Leopard tank and packed snow on a hill are the equivalent of a hockey puck on ice.   [:-[
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Re: Domestic and Arctic Mobility Enhancement Project
« Reply #38 on: March 30, 2016, 18:59:05 »
Let me tell you,  at times a Leopard tank and packed snow on a hill are the equivalent of a hockey puck on ice.   [:-[
Black hat hockey [:D

Offline Thucydides

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Re: Domestic and Arctic Mobility Enhancement Project
« Reply #39 on: March 31, 2016, 12:33:53 »
Black hat hockey [:D

So long as I'm not in the net!

MTV's can carry weapons like the 106mm Recoiless rifle (for a real blast from the past) or mount an ATGM like TOW to provide the sort of long range fire support that may be needed, and still swim through swamps or travel over muskeg. The basic MTV can also serve as the basis for a mortar carrier, ambulance, CP, comms "truck" and many other roles (it can even carry troops!). So WRT logistics, you can standardize on a single family of vehicles to carry out missions once you get off the boat/plane/helicopter/etc.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2016, 12:36:28 by Thucydides »
Dagny, this is not a battle over material goods. It's a moral crisis, the greatest the world has ever faced and the last. Our age is the climax of centuries of evil. We must put an end to it, once and for all, or perish - we, the men of the mind. It was our own guilt. We produced the wealth of the world - but we let our enemies write its moral code.

Offline Colin P

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Re: Domestic and Arctic Mobility Enhancement Project
« Reply #40 on: March 31, 2016, 12:55:13 »
Modernized BV206 could easily be built domestically. Carrier, recovery, Command, engineer, signal, mortar and AT versions. Hell even a light weight bridge carrier. This would mean jobs and money spent within Canada, do a slow production ramp up to keep the assembly lines working for a long time.

Offline Chris Pook

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Re: Domestic and Arctic Mobility Enhancement Project
« Reply #41 on: March 31, 2016, 14:18:09 »
Modernized BV206 could easily be built domestically. Carrier, recovery, Command, engineer, signal, mortar and AT versions. Hell even a light weight bridge carrier. This would mean jobs and money spent within Canada, do a slow production ramp up to keep the assembly lines working for a long time.

Again - This is the modernized Bv206  but now it has undergone the same transformation as the old Half Ton Pickup.  It has transitioned from a 2 Tonne payload (Half Tonne up Front and 1.5 Tonnes in the Back with an additional 2.5 Tonnes of Towing Capacity)  to an  8 Tonne payload with (I'm guessing) an additional 5 to 8 Tonnes of Towing Capacity.  This is because engine has gone from a 130 HP Ford Taurus engine, as found in the Ford Ranger,  to a 285 HP 5.9 Litre Cummins Diesel as found in Ram 3500s up to 2008 or thereabouts.  I wouldn't doubt that the more modern 350 HP 6.7 Litre would also fit.




This machine is no longer just a local runabout any more than this is:



And, also as previously noted, we have also successfully explored local production of an offshore design by a qualified Canadian manufacturer.



http://foremost.ca/foremost-mobile-equipment/tracked-vehicles/chieftain-c/

You no longer have a Pick-up.  You now have a Medium Truck.

One more image:



And that is with the Ford Ranger engine.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2016, 14:25:00 by Chris Pook »
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Re: Domestic and Arctic Mobility Enhancement Project
« Reply #42 on: March 31, 2016, 14:31:13 »
As you stated, the how is there, the need is there, just the will and how many is missing.

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Re: Domestic and Arctic Mobility Enhancement Project
« Reply #43 on: March 31, 2016, 15:30:33 »
I have absolutely zero experience in the arctic, and not much experience in winter warfare.

The trailer being pulled in that last image looks like the tires are having a hard time muscling their way through deeper snow.

Do trailers exist that have similar tracks to that of the towing vehicle?  Could make for much easier towing of trailers in winter/arctic conditions??
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Re: Domestic and Arctic Mobility Enhancement Project
« Reply #44 on: March 31, 2016, 23:03:34 »
Considering the last pic shows what appears to be a 20ton beaver tail..yeah it would have problems in deep snow...
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Re: Domestic and Arctic Mobility Enhancement Project
« Reply #45 on: April 01, 2016, 15:42:22 »
I have absolutely zero experience in the arctic, and not much experience in winter warfare.

The trailer being pulled in that last image looks like the tires are having a hard time muscling their way through deeper snow.

Do trailers exist that have similar tracks to that of the towing vehicle?  Could make for much easier towing of trailers in winter/arctic conditions??

Maybe something like this?



http://www.sno-cat.com/tracked-trailers-Sno-Cat.html

It seems to me that that trailer, plus the Beowulf BvS10 makes a whole lot more sense than this:



Especially if integrated with the Chinooks and maaaaaayyybeeee something like this:



http://www.ctvnews.ca/business/giant-airships-one-step-closer-to-use-in-alberta-oilsands-canada-s-north-1.2837727

Unfortunately the shape of the airship has attracted some interesting comparisons

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Offline Thucydides

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Re: Domestic and Arctic Mobility Enhancement Project
« Reply #46 on: April 01, 2016, 23:30:20 »
The Bronco can be built under licence here in Canada by GDLS (big surprise there), but I believe Foremost in Alberta had done the production of the BV-206, and any surviving ones could be sent back for refurbishment and upgrades. Re-looking at the title, "Domestic" can also be covered by MTV's, since they can swim out in floods to check isolated houses and carry rescuers and equipment, cross rubble strewn terrain (they have less ground pressure than a walking man) and get men and equipment virtually anywhere across Canada. Only in the very urbanized parts of Canada with their extensive road and rail networks would most of the advantages of the MTV be overshadowed by their slow road speeds. Trailers mounted on huge "Rolligon" tires can accompany most MTV's (and looking at Rolligons, they might be revived as a form of MTV in of themselves: http://www.unusuallocomotion.com/pages/industrial/rolligons-and-terra-tires.html)

Ships, hovercraft, helicopters or blimps could be used to move the MTV's and soldiers across longer distances, as well as forward positioning supplies. For max flex and utility, these transport means would be directly and permanently associated with the Bn.

I'm starting to think of a composite unit designed along the lines of the 1980's era Mech Infantry Battalion but with a much enhanced HQ and Sigs Coy (I'd also put the Recce Pl there so they are in the CO's pocket), and a robust Combat Support Coy and Service Support Coy so they can move and operate in isolated areas and impassable terrain (the Pioneer platoon would need to be always at 100% strength, for example, so overborne in Garrison to cover the inevitable posted for courses, leave and admin stuff). Some sort of movement or transport cell would also be needed in the HQ to facilitate the movement of the Bn via "their" ship or helicopter squadron (or whatever other magic carpets are being used to get to the disembarkation point)
Dagny, this is not a battle over material goods. It's a moral crisis, the greatest the world has ever faced and the last. Our age is the climax of centuries of evil. We must put an end to it, once and for all, or perish - we, the men of the mind. It was our own guilt. We produced the wealth of the world - but we let our enemies write its moral code.

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Re: Domestic and Arctic Mobility Enhancement Project
« Reply #47 on: April 23, 2016, 13:55:08 »
I have been seeing this little Rampage vehicle being showcased during Op Nunalivut

Apparently it is not a developmental vehicle but a production vehicle that is manufactured by Polaris and available in Japan

http://powersportsbusiness.com/top-stories/2016/04/18/polaris-supports-operation-nunalivut/

Quote
A Polaris Rampage, an amphibious, all-terrain, all-season, global-reach platform, was deployed in support of Canadian Operation Nunalivut in the North Pole.

The vehicle got the attention of SNAFU!

http://snafu-solomon.blogspot.ca/2016/04/canadian-army-and-defense-research.html

Here is the Japanese spec sheet

http://www.whitehouse.co.jp/wha/rampage/

According to the google translator it weighs 1567 kg (CH-148/CH-149 and larger) with a 454 kg payload and a towing capacity of 6000 lbs (2700 kg).   With a 110 HP, 999cc engine it has a land speed of >80 km/h and is amphibious.

An interesting complement the BvS10 Beowulf.  -  an Iltis to the Beowulf's MLVW.

I wonder if anybody is going to try the Wiesel 2 up North?

Edit - more pictures of the Rampage at a Tokyo trade show.

http://en.responsejp.com/article/2015/10/18/262284.html


« Last Edit: April 23, 2016, 16:07:14 by Chris Pook »
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Offline Thucydides

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Re: Domestic and Arctic Mobility Enhancement Project
« Reply #48 on: April 24, 2016, 19:36:45 »
So lets do a little costing out and see if this could be sold to Gerald Butts as "infrastructure" spending.

So far I have essentially advocated to either create 3 new battalions (or move one battalion each from the regiments) to the high arctic, create 3 bases (Inuvik, Resolute Bay and Moosenee), buy 240+ MTV's, and have 3 squadrons of helicopters and a small fleet of ships/shallow draft craft/hovercraft. Of course there will also need to be the ability to run an air bridge to these bases for logistics support, and enough aircraft to bring sufficient men and supplies...Enablers to support the arctic force will also be needed, including specialized comms, engineers, medical and others needed to keep things going when isolated from the support facilities in southern Canada.

Some of the costs might be shared with the Coast Guard for ships and SAR for the helicopter squadrons (although are Chinooks really adaptable enough for that role?) and some of the C-130's for the air bridge.

Thoughts?
Dagny, this is not a battle over material goods. It's a moral crisis, the greatest the world has ever faced and the last. Our age is the climax of centuries of evil. We must put an end to it, once and for all, or perish - we, the men of the mind. It was our own guilt. We produced the wealth of the world - but we let our enemies write its moral code.

Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: Domestic and Arctic Mobility Enhancement Project
« Reply #49 on: May 01, 2016, 22:45:40 »
Why not think outside of the box and go for Ekranoplans?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_effect_vehicle
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Re: Domestic and Arctic Mobility Enhancement Project
« Reply #50 on: May 02, 2016, 10:20:24 »
Why not think outside of the box and go for Ekranoplans?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_effect_vehicle

They were meant more for the long rivers in the USSR, even they finally gave up on them. I would spend money on improving the infrastructure of the North, so you can move units there at a moments notice. We are starting to see more all weather roads up that way and learning how to do long distance road moves along with air bridging will be important. Some riverboats with jets would also help. At the same time you need to increase the reserve presence up there to provide security for your new infrastructure, till the troops arrive. 

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Re: Domestic and Arctic Mobility Enhancement Project
« Reply #51 on: May 02, 2016, 10:55:23 »
They were meant more for the long rivers in the USSR, even they finally gave up on them. I would spend money on improving the infrastructure of the North, so you can move units there at a moments notice. We are starting to see more all weather roads up that way and learning how to do long distance road moves along with air bridging will be important. Some riverboats with jets would also help. At the same time you need to increase the reserve presence up there to provide security for your new infrastructure, till the troops arrive.

Colin, I can't agree with you on this one.

Building roads and rail to service less than 1,000,000 people scattered over the 7,000,000 km2 that represents the 70% of Canada not currently serviced by either will never be economical.   Even here on the prairies, where some 7,000,000 people occupy less than 1,000,000 km2 governments struggle to maintain roads, most of which are gravelled at best and you still need off-road capability to cover the distances between roads.  And that is on open, hard ground, not ground that is covered by trees or water or that turns to mush when the ground warms up or is vertical rock.

We settlers just can't get our oxcarts up into that country.  But we can get Chinooks up there to complement river transportation and we can get tracked vehicles up there to lay their own roads as they go.

As an aside, I remember somebody commenting/complaining that the Chinook design hasn't changed much in 50 years and is expected to keep flying for another 50.  Maybe it is for exactly the same reason that the oxcart design hasn't changed in 5000 years.
It is a fundamentally sound design.


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Re: Domestic and Arctic Mobility Enhancement Project
« Reply #52 on: May 02, 2016, 12:16:14 »
We are going to have to agree to disagree. [:p

 We do need some allweather roads and a railway to the North. Just part of the cost of doing businesses. As for the populations, we need to wean people away from the south. We need to look at the “population bands”. Using the BC/Yukon model I am familiar with:
The main one is the South border region
2nd band is the 53/54 Latitude band –Prince George, Rupert, Edmonton, etc
3rd  band is the “Middle North” Ft Nelson, Whitehorse, Ft simpson, Yellowknife
4th Band is the North Coastline, coppermine, etc
5th band is the archipelago communities

You can make places in the 2nd band more livable fairly easily, better connectivity (internet), transit, etc

3rd band is a bit harder, again connectivity is important, services, better healthcare facilities, schools, etc.
In the 2nd and 3rd band you need to encourage non-resource related jobs to provide a cushion for the ups and down

4th and 5th band needs some connections with the south through roads, rail and airports. But also better port facilities, this is be a big part of infrastructure funding and could be done over a long period.

People need two main things to move up North, quality of life and jobs. The latter is the hardest, but good connectivity allows for more non-resource jobs or secondary jobs to support the resource jobs.

Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: Domestic and Arctic Mobility Enhancement Project
« Reply #53 on: May 02, 2016, 13:12:49 »
Colin, I can't agree with you on this one.

Building roads and rail to service less than 1,000,000 people scattered over the 7,000,000 km2 that represents the 70% of Canada not currently serviced by either will never be economical.   Even here on the prairies, where some 7,000,000 people occupy less than 1,000,000 km2 governments struggle to maintain roads, most of which are gravelled at best and you still need off-road capability to cover the distances between roads.  And that is on open, hard ground, not ground that is covered by trees or water or that turns to mush when the ground warms up or is vertical rock.

We settlers just can't get our oxcarts up into that country.  But we can get Chinooks up there to complement river transportation and we can get tracked vehicles up there to lay their own roads as they go.

As an aside, I remember somebody commenting/complaining that the Chinook design hasn't changed much in 50 years and is expected to keep flying for another 50.  Maybe it is for exactly the same reason that the oxcart design hasn't changed in 5000 years.
It is a fundamentally sound design.

The airport in Iqaluit has tarmac long enough to take the Space Shuttle, apparently, as an emergency option.

This is clearly far too big for normal travel requirements yet, amazingly, enough money was found to build it to keep various levels and nationalities of governments - and their space programs - happy.

Where there is a will, there is a way (and money).
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Offline Chris Pook

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Re: Domestic and Arctic Mobility Enhancement Project
« Reply #54 on: May 02, 2016, 15:10:40 »
I agree that anything is possible if cash.

The point of contention is which is cheaper:

Building, maintaining and operating trucks, roads and bridges or building and maintaining runways and heliports, wharfs, boats, barges and helicopters.

My money is on the alternatives to the roads.
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Offline Colin P

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Re: Domestic and Arctic Mobility Enhancement Project
« Reply #55 on: May 02, 2016, 15:31:50 »
Interesting conversation I had with a Canfor Engineer about the forest Practice Codes. He said that by adhering to them it cost more to build, but in the long term they saved a lot of money as road maintenance and emergency repairs dropped considerably. So if you are building a major road, invest in doing it well.

This is one road upgrade I was involved in   http://www.sydroad.com/

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Re: Domestic and Arctic Mobility Enhancement Project
« Reply #56 on: May 02, 2016, 16:24:27 »
I can, actually, see a case for a small number of well constructed trunk roads.  But I still "feel" that there will still be too much space in between them to allow for a network such as we are used to in the south.
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Re: Domestic and Arctic Mobility Enhancement Project
« Reply #57 on: May 02, 2016, 17:03:39 »
totally agree on that

Those main roads should also be supported with small airstrips ( again positioning is key) and eventually powerlines. The powerlines don’t have to be part of the main grid, but providing power to nearby communities using small Hydro like this https://www.yukonenergy.ca/energy-in-yukon/our-projects-facilities/new-hydro/pine-creek-hydro-project/

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Re: Domestic and Arctic Mobility Enhancement Project
« Reply #58 on: May 02, 2016, 20:15:46 »
totally agree on that

Those main roads should also be supported with small airstrips ( again positioning is key) and eventually powerlines. The powerlines don’t have to be part of the main grid, but providing power to nearby communities using small Hydro like this https://www.yukonenergy.ca/energy-in-yukon/our-projects-facilities/new-hydro/pine-creek-hydro-project/

I still prefer to come at the problem from this end: with distributed Combined Heat and Power systems.  These are with natural gas which may be locally available, but could be with diesel or propane.





http://world.honda.com/powerproducts-technology/cogeneration/
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Offline Colin P

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Re: Domestic and Arctic Mobility Enhancement Project
« Reply #59 on: May 03, 2016, 10:30:31 »
The big cost to the communities is often the diesel for the generators, plus it costs a lot to move the quantities required. This was the case in Atlin, 2 B trains a week as I recall. It's actually cheaper for BC Hydro to buy the electricity from the small hydro plant the Tiniglit built than to ship the fuel in. I know elsewhere, I think it was Tuk or Inuvik is running low on NG and they don't have the money to drill a new well. I quite like the idea of the small Toshiba reactors, but I know anything nuclear is dead for the next decade. http://www.gizmag.com/small-modular-nuclear-reactors/20860/

Interesting link from Japan, always neat to see other solutions. Another SE Asian solution (and a shameless plug for my blog that I have neglected) http://denofzeus.blogspot.ca/2010/06/gobar-gas-only-dung-beattles-will-be.html     

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Re: Domestic and Arctic Mobility Enhancement Project
« Reply #60 on: May 03, 2016, 11:03:25 »
A good news story that speaks partly to what we are talking about http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/thunder-bay/teen-first-nation-drinking-water-1.3563110

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Re: Domestic and Arctic Mobility Enhancement Project
« Reply #61 on: May 03, 2016, 11:30:36 »
Good on the youngster. I hope they can figure out how to maintain a dozen just like him.  As we've noted before, the issue is not just one of supplying the plant but of finding the people to operate and maintain it.  And allowing people to take pride in their efforts.
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Re: Domestic and Arctic Mobility Enhancement Project
« Reply #62 on: May 03, 2016, 13:31:30 »
Good on the youngster. I hope they can figure out how to maintain a dozen just like him.  As we've noted before, the issue is not just one of supplying the plant but of finding the people to operate and maintain it.  And allowing people to take pride in their efforts.
And ensuring the pool of such keeners grows to avoid having only a few keeners getting so good that they get poached away to bigger, higher-paying jobs without leaving keen replacements behind.
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Re: Domestic and Arctic Mobility Enhancement Project
« Reply #63 on: August 13, 2016, 22:29:30 »
WRT an airbridge to the high arctic, there might be some opportunity for a cost sharing arrangement. There are plenty of bush pilots still operating around the sort with everything from surplus C-130's retired from the USAF to DC-3's and smaller aircraft.

If the Canadian Government were to supply the airframes and a bit of basic infrastructure in the north for private operators in return for these carriers being "on call" for government work, we could have a standardized fleet of aircraft and pool of trained operators ready to go at short notice. While it might be nice to spring for dozens of C-130's, those aircraft might not be economical for private operators (mostly because it is probably difficult to fill the cargo hold with paying freight for a plane that size). Some of the smaller transport planes that vendors have been flogging for the FWSAR would probably be the 80% solution.

Dagny, this is not a battle over material goods. It's a moral crisis, the greatest the world has ever faced and the last. Our age is the climax of centuries of evil. We must put an end to it, once and for all, or perish - we, the men of the mind. It was our own guilt. We produced the wealth of the world - but we let our enemies write its moral code.

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Re: Domestic and Arctic Mobility Enhancement Project
« Reply #64 on: May 30, 2018, 21:44:17 »
I'll throw it here as it's a winter use vehicle adaptation.  On display at the Polaris booth at CANSEC was this motorcycle called a Timbersled.  I can see this being the wet dream of all sorts of soldiers.


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Re: Domestic and Arctic Mobility Enhancement Project
« Reply #66 on: May 31, 2018, 19:22:14 »
Oddly, I was on the same website, but came across a different vehicle. The Standard 8X8 chassis was developed as a private venture to build a family of high mobility cross country vehicles. One of the first demonstrated was a vehicle carrying a 20mm Vulcan cannon for SHORAD (the same cannon carried by the M-163), but the concept was expanded to include proposals for transport trucks, artillery prime movers and so on.

http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/21002/excalibur-was-a-vulcan-gatling-gun-wielding-air-defense-vehicle-straight-out-of-g-i-joe

With wider diameter tires (or even very enlarged "Rollagon" type wheels) it probably would make for a cheaper MTV, and as a "Family of vehicles" would provide that logistical commonality and economy of scale when buying and using them.

Dagny, this is not a battle over material goods. It's a moral crisis, the greatest the world has ever faced and the last. Our age is the climax of centuries of evil. We must put an end to it, once and for all, or perish - we, the men of the mind. It was our own guilt. We produced the wealth of the world - but we let our enemies write its moral code.

Offline GK .Dundas

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Re: Domestic and Arctic Mobility Enhancement Project
« Reply #67 on: June 17, 2018, 17:32:39 »
Oddly, I was on the same website, but came across a different vehicle. The Standard 8X8 chassis was developed as a private venture to build a family of high mobility cross country vehicles. One of the first demonstrated was a vehicle carrying a 20mm Vulcan cannon for SHORAD (the same cannon carried by the M-163), but the concept was expanded to include proposals for transport trucks, artillery prime movers and so on.

http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/21002/excalibur-was-a-vulcan-gatling-gun-wielding-air-defense-vehicle-straight-out-of-g-i-joe

With wider diameter tires (or even very enlarged "Rollagon" type wheels) it probably would make for a cheaper MTV, and as a "Family of vehicles" would provide that logistical commonality and economy of scale when buying and using them.
Further to your posting,for your perusal and comment.
https://www.thinkdefence.co.uk/supacat-terrain-mobility-platform-atmp/

https://www.thinkdefence.co.uk/multidrive-vehicles/

https://www.thinkdefence.co.uk/esarco-vehicles/
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Re: Domestic and Arctic Mobility Enhancement Project
« Reply #68 on: June 17, 2018, 18:50:38 »
"Wyrd bið ful aræd"

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Re: Domestic and Arctic Mobility Enhancement Project
« Reply #69 on: June 18, 2018, 00:26:18 »
One of the best all terrain vehicles I've seen in action in the arctic is the Leopard tank, which the Germans designed to go all the way to Moscow in case of 'Eastern Front II'.

Just sayin'  ;)
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Re: Domestic and Arctic Mobility Enhancement Project
« Reply #70 on: June 18, 2018, 10:54:34 »
The CB-90 is supposed to be quite good in snow as well https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZR37pYAA0HY

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Re: Domestic and Arctic Mobility Enhancement Project
« Reply #71 on: August 31, 2018, 11:29:54 »
Bump - Bv206 replacement programme

Quote
The [US] Army is looking for a new all-around vehicle that can swim, climb and charge through snow
By: Todd South     17 hours ago




BAE Systems is one company vying to replace the more than 40-year-old tracked, Small Unit Support Vehicle for the Army, Marines and National Guard. They're offering the modernized BvS10, which comes in armored and unarmored versions. (BAE Systems)

After more than 40 years of service, the robust little all-terrain vehicle that can climb mountains, ford rivers and churn through snow needs replacing.

And the Army, Marines and National Guard are asking industry to give them a new ride.

Back in June, Army Contracting Command officials put out a Request for Information for industry to share what they think can replace the Small Unit Support Vehicle, a tracked vehicle that’s been in service since the mid-1970s.

At one point, there were 1,100 of them in the U.S. military inventory. Now, only a few dozen remain, mostly in service in cold weather areas such as U.S. Army Alaska.

The new program to replace the SUSV has been dubbed the “Joint All Weather All Terrain Support Vehicle," or JAASV.

https://www.armytimes.com/news/your-army/2018/08/30/the-army-is-looking-for-a-new-all-around-vehicle-that-can-swim-climb-and-charge-through-snow/
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Offline LoboCanada

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Re: Domestic and Arctic Mobility Enhancement Project
« Reply #72 on: August 31, 2018, 12:12:56 »
Just licence out 500 to someone in Canada for extra $, its not like you can't use these everywhere.

What ever happened to this project? Not supposed to even start til 2020/2021 but I read of different tests and experiments of Light Over Snow Vehicles?

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Re: Domestic and Arctic Mobility Enhancement Project
« Reply #73 on: August 31, 2018, 12:24:36 »
Single source contracts appear to be the only way we get decent equipment, just saying.

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"The most important qualification of a soldier is fortitude under fatigue and privation. Courage is only second; hardship, poverty and want are the best school for a soldier." Napoleon

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Re: Domestic and Arctic Mobility Enhancement Project
« Reply #75 on: August 31, 2018, 14:20:31 »
No doubt we are going to attempt to recreate Bobcat 2.0

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Re: Domestic and Arctic Mobility Enhancement Project
« Reply #76 on: August 31, 2018, 15:35:51 »
No doubt we are going to attempt to recreate Bobcat 2.0

What's wrong with that?  The original Bobcat did go into production . . . of a sort.
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