Author Topic: SYR Refugees to Canada (split fm SYR refugees thread)  (Read 89829 times)

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Offline E.R. Campbell

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Re: Syrian Refugee Crisis (aka: Muslim Exodus and Europe)
« Reply #25 on: September 16, 2015, 07:57:08 »
Interesting - former Ministers and DM's say the PM could do more, even during an election - highlights mine:


While I agree with the authors of the open letter that "security cannot be an excuse for inertia," it, security, can and must be a very high priority in deciding who ~ refugee, migrant, tourist or student ~ is allowed to enter Canada for any reason. A government that puts the welfare of these unfortunate people ahead of the security of Canada would be derelict in its duties to both.
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Re: Syrian Refugee Crisis (aka: Muslim Exodus and Europe)
« Reply #26 on: September 16, 2015, 09:45:59 »

While I agree with the authors of the open letter that "security cannot be an excuse for inertia," it, security, can and must be a very high priority in deciding who ~ refugee, migrant, tourist or student ~ is allowed to enter Canada for any reason. A government that puts the welfare of these unfortunate people ahead of the security of Canada would be derelict in its duties to both.
Just curious - what's your read re:  how much prep the bureaucrats can really get done during an election.  Those signing the op-ed piece suggest a lot, and I'm guessing someone's doing some work on briefings for transition in the event there is one, but things like "launch(ing) a significant new humanitarian Syrian refugee resettlement program" seem quite a leap when you don't have a Parliament, even compared to this announced during the campaign.
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Offline E.R. Campbell

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Re: Syrian Refugee Crisis (aka: Muslim Exodus and Europe)
« Reply #27 on: September 16, 2015, 10:04:05 »
Just curious - what's your read re:  how much prep the bureaucrats can really get done during an election.  Those signing the op-ed piece suggest a lot, and I'm guessing someone's doing some work on briefings for transition in the event there is one, but things like "launch(ing) a significant new humanitarian Syrian refugee resettlement program" seem quite a leap when you don't have a Parliament, even compared to this announced during the campaign.


I'm pretty sure the authors of the letter are correct: there is a lot of work that bureaucrats can do, election or not, to prepare for any reasonable contingency, work that will not have any political impact, even if it is made public. The more important question, for me, is: for just what contingencies should those bureaucrats prepare?

Remember, also, please, that the sitting government, in the middle of an election campaign, has announced a spending programme aimed, specifically, at this "event." Messers Mulcair and Trudeau could argue that the government is using its office to advance its own re-election chances ... but I don't think they will. The government has taken reasonable, caretaker steps in the face of a perceived "crisis," the (unwritten) Constitution doesn't seem to have been offended.
It is ill that men should kill one another in seditions, tumults and wars; but it is worse to bring nations to such misery, weakness and baseness
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Offline milnews.ca

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Re: Syrian Refugee Crisis (aka: Muslim Exodus and Europe)
« Reply #28 on: September 16, 2015, 11:45:03 »
The more important question, for me, is: for just what contingencies should those bureaucrats prepare?
:nod:  Especially given the range of options being offered by the contenders should they get the reins.
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Offline Brad Sallows

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Re: Syrian Refugee Crisis (aka: Muslim Exodus and Europe)
« Reply #29 on: September 16, 2015, 12:25:36 »
>Under the Public Policy provisions of the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act, the government can launch a significant new humanitarian Syrian refugee resettlement program

Why only Syrians?  Why not apportion the number of places the estimate determines can be made available among refugees worldwide and ensure Canada is not trying to digest lumps of monoculture?
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Offline Chris Pook

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Re: Syrian Refugee Crisis (aka: Muslim Exodus and Europe)
« Reply #30 on: September 16, 2015, 12:36:30 »
Inertia no.  Action yes.  Defuse the situation at a distance from Canadian borders then manage the flow of immigrants.
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Re: Syrian Refugee Crisis (aka: Muslim Exodus and Europe)
« Reply #31 on: September 16, 2015, 12:49:27 »
Inertia no.  Action yes.  Defuse the situation at a distance from Canadian borders then manage the flow of immigrants.

Now that is a big picture comment I can agree with. Now we can get to work on the phasing details.
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Re: Syrian Refugee Crisis (aka: Muslim Exodus and Europe)
« Reply #32 on: September 20, 2015, 08:17:53 »
Note to people working in DND - yes, they CAN tell when you update a Wikipedia page - original in French/excerpt from Google Translated version below:
Quote
.... The IP address 131 137 245 208 has indeed recently made changes on a Wikipedia page on refugees in the Syrian civil war. In one part showing the number of refugees in different countries, the vandal has written that "there are more than 300 families with very large dildos" in Argentina.

Thirty minutes later, another user has deleted these changes.

The Department of National Defence told 45eNord.ca he was taking "very seriously these allegations" and that the amendment "does not represent the views of the Department of National Defence and the Canadian Forces."

The chain of command has been informed of these facts and an investigation was ordered under DAOD 6002-2 on "legitimate Use of Internet, intranet of the defense, computers and other information system" ....
Stay classy ....  :facepalm:
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Offline milnews.ca

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Re: SYR Refugees to Canada (split fm SYR refugees thread)
« Reply #33 on: October 30, 2015, 06:03:06 »
Well big Rick has an answer:

Rick Hillier says military can help bring in 50,000 refugees by Christmas

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canada-election-2015-rick-hillier-refugees-military-christmas-1.3225732

The Canadian Forces could play a key role in helping to bring at least 50,000 Syrian refugees — far more than the government is planning — to Canada by Christmas, retired general Rick Hillier says ....
Uh, maybe not?
Quote
During the election, Liberal leader Justin Trudeau promised that his government would bring 25,000 Syrian refugees to Canada by the end of 2015.

But it’s a tall order, say refugee advocates. Though they applaud the idea of vastly increasing Canada’s intake of Syrian refugees, they wonder if the timeline is a bit too tight.

“People are suggesting if necessary take a bit longer and do it better, rather than just bringing people here and not having things ready for them,” said Janet Dench, executive director of the Canadian Council for Refugees ....
More ....
Quote
.... Canada currently takes about 7,500 government assisted refugees each year, who are typically met by non-governmental organizations whose staff help with orientation and and place them in temporary housing, either in reception centres or even cheap hotels.

If that number is to be boosted to 25,000 over the next two months, these organizations will know what needs to be done, but their capacity to do it will be strained to breaking, said Janet Dench, executive director of the Canadian Council for Refugees.

“It’s already a challenge to find housing suitable for them, so that’s why groups are saying ‘Yes, let’s do it, but give us enough time to get the things in place for people to arrive,’” she said.

She said Canada’s response on government assistance for Syrians fleeing their homeland has so far been “poor” and “diametrically opposed” to Germany’s, though Germany does not offer a private sponsorship program like Canada’s.

A massive shift in that attitude would certainly require political will from a new Trudeau government, but also probably some serious military assistance, especially with emergency housing in winter months, such as on air bases ....
Still, retiree hope springs eternal ....
Quote
Two retired leaders of the Royal Canadian Air Force say it is “technically” possible for Prime Minister-designate Justin Trudeau to reach his goal of resettling 25,000 Syrian refugees by the end of the year.

However, they say a successful mission would require fast action and a full-fledged military response.

“I haven’t seen a plan, I’ve just seen an intent. But it’s technically feasible, if enough resources and enough commitment is made and enough co-operation is found,” Lt.-Gen. Ken Pennie, former head of the Royal Canadian Air Force, told CTV’s Power Play on Thursday.

That sentiment was echoed by retired Brig.-Gen. Gaston Cloutier, the former wing commander at 8 Wing Trenton, who said the plan is “possible” from “a purely technical perspective.”

“From my perspective, the only organization that can deal with such an influx of people is the Canadian Forces, so the entire Canadian Forces … would have to be involved,” he said ...."
Meanwhile, serving CAF folks are getting 'er done ....
Quote
The Canadian Armed Forces is scrambling to determine how many Syrian refugees could be temporarily accommodated at military bases as they draft plans to help the incoming Liberal government fulfill a campaign promise to bring 25,000 asylum seekers here by Jan. 1.

Ottawa is considering private airplanes to bring the refugees to Canada. Military aircraft are available, and the CC-150 Airbus Polaris could bring as many as 190 per flight, but Forces officials say it is hard to beat the cheaper, high-density seating of a chartered wide-body aircraft.

The Trudeau Liberals, meanwhile, are hoping to tap the wave of popular support that washed them into office to enlist more Canadians to sponsor Syrian refugees privately. This would help defray the cost to Ottawa of settling 25,000 newcomers.

Sources say the Liberals will call on mayors and other politicians in coming days to facilitate the arrival of refugees on their home turf after some prominent politicians pledged to sponsor Syrian refugees in early September.

Refugees will need to be screened, transported to Canada and housed somewhere until they can be processed and transferred to the care of provincial authorities and sponsor groups ....
« Last Edit: October 30, 2015, 06:29:07 by milnews.ca »
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Offline Chris Pook

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Re: SYR Refugees to Canada (split fm SYR refugees thread)
« Reply #34 on: October 30, 2015, 09:12:28 »
Here's a thought:

Declare one of Canada's Arctic Islands as an Extra-Territorial possession.  Establish a refugee facility there.  Invite all-comers.  Consider it a Canadian version of Christmas Island with the added benefit that it is close to the North Pole and Santa.

In a generation or two they can request to join the federation as a territory like Nunavut.
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Offline c_canuk

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Re: SYR Refugees to Canada (split fm SYR refugees thread)
« Reply #35 on: October 30, 2015, 14:03:46 »
Sounds like a reasonable solution if enough funds were spent to make it hospitable while they are guided on integration into our society, however, the wailing and gnashing of the teeth from SJW would make it political suicide, even if it was just a year to screen, educate and integrate.

It's still a good idea, just have to set it up somewhere more hospitable, though the SJW will refer to it as a camp no doubt... I suppose it's more likely to be seen as a good idea if the LPC is at the helm rather than CPC.
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Re: SYR Refugees to Canada (split fm SYR refugees thread)
« Reply #36 on: October 30, 2015, 17:24:26 »
An integration centre is a great idea that will not pass due to earlier history.  Grosse Island served as just such a facility in the 19th century and its memories will not allow the concept to be tried again.  Besides, these folks won't even accept water if it isn't in the correctly labelled container so they certainly won't tolerate being settled anywhere but near or in civilization   Expect riots if such an attempt is made.

Offline George Wallace

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Re: SYR Refugees to Canada (split fm SYR refugees thread)
« Reply #37 on: October 30, 2015, 17:34:07 »
An integration centre is a great idea that will not pass due to earlier history.  Grosse Island served as just such a facility in the 19th century and its memories will not allow the concept to be tried again.  Besides, these folks won't even accept water if it isn't in the correctly labelled container so they certainly won't tolerate being settled anywhere but near or in civilization   Expect riots if such an attempt is made.

So, you are telling us that they are being civilized in their demands?  Excuse me for being less than accepting in anything other than offering humanitarian aid as we would deem the norm.  If they are such that they do not want to assimilate or integrate into our society, then please do not come here demanding the world of us.

It is bloody ridiculous to demand that we create a "Halab" policy for ungrateful peoples.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2015, 17:37:26 by George Wallace »
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Offline George Wallace

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Re: SYR Refugees to Canada (split fm SYR refugees thread)
« Reply #38 on: October 30, 2015, 17:44:32 »
Here's a thought:

Declare one of Canada's Arctic Islands as an Extra-Territorial possession.  Establish a refugee facility there.  Invite all-comers.  Consider it a Canadian version of Christmas Island with the added benefit that it is close to the North Pole and Santa.

In a generation or two they can request to join the federation as a territory like Nunavut.

Are there not existing Barracks in Goose Bay that are sitting empty?  Would it be feasible to build infrastructure in Churchill to house, process and provide medical needs to the large numbers promised, which would further develop the North and provide infrastucture that Churchill and surrounding settlements could use well after the migrant issue is over?  Unlike Southern locations, the demand for Security forces would be minimal.
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Offline GAP

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Re: SYR Refugees to Canada (split fm SYR refugees thread)
« Reply #39 on: October 30, 2015, 19:37:44 »
Nah, Churchill has little in the way of excess housing. Use Kapyong.
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Offline George Wallace

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Re: SYR Refugees to Canada (split fm SYR refugees thread)
« Reply #40 on: October 31, 2015, 05:01:42 »
Nah, Churchill has little in the way of excess housing. Use Kapyong.

Ship in ACCO trailers.  They were good enough for PMQ's on the Pine Tree Line.  They could be used after the "crisis" to encourage more to move North, or as Temp Qtrs for organizations involved in business or leisure in the North, or moved to any other location that would need them.

The problem with these migrants (NOT those that are sponsored by family members.) is that they are not happy with what is being given to them and are inclined to wander off the environs that are set up for their administration, disappearing into the population.  Placing them in any location within a metropolitan area is only asking for problems.  From experience in Germany, when they accepted Russian, Polish and other immigrants who had claims to German heritage after the Wall came down, the crime rate in the locations that they were settled rose 500%.  (Experience from 1990's in Lahr/Offenburg region.)  There is a good possibility this experience will be repeated.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2015, 05:08:41 by George Wallace »
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Re: SYR Refugees to Canada (split fm SYR refugees thread)
« Reply #41 on: October 31, 2015, 22:05:02 »
The "Oktoberfest" speil was all an unknown blogger in the UK, with not known identity, who raised a bogus "demand".  It has NO credible authenticity.
Why let facts gets in the way of a good fear mongering?
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Re: SYR Refugees to Canada (split fm SYR refugees thread)
« Reply #42 on: October 31, 2015, 22:11:56 »
Why let facts gets in the way of a good fear mongering?
Wasnt that the NDP and Liberal supporters entire set of campaign messaging for the past election?

Being weary of the intentions of people who are violently trying to move from safe country to safe country is not fear mongering. If they were fleeing fighting in Syria they should be happy in whatever EU nation they got to.

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Re: SYR Refugees to Canada (split fm SYR refugees thread)
« Reply #43 on: October 31, 2015, 23:55:46 »
So I'm not opposed to allowing Refugees in to the country.  I had a great argument with my significant other about this today though.  I said that I would be willing to allow refugees into Canada on the condition they stay with Canadian families that are willing to house them while they await a residency claim.  I said I would be more than willing to sponsor a family and that they could even live in my house as long as they agreed to follow my rules.

My significant other was vehemently opposed to this of course.  Her thoughts were that they should be allowed to come here but she wants nothing to do with them and wouldn't want them living in her house.  I disagreed with her and said if we are willing to accept these people in to our country, we should be willing to accept them in to our homes.  I think the average Canadian wants that feel good moment of helping someone,my it doesn't want to actually do anything to earn it.  If we can't accept someone in to our home, why. Should they be allowed to settle here?

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Re: SYR Refugees to Canada (split fm SYR refugees thread)
« Reply #44 on: November 01, 2015, 05:57:28 »
So I'm not opposed to allowing Refugees in to the country.  I had a great argument with my significant other about this today though.  I said that I would be willing to allow refugees into Canada on the condition they stay with Canadian families that are willing to house them while they await a residency claim.  I said I would be more than willing to sponsor a family and that they could even live in my house as long as they agreed to follow my rules.

My significant other was vehemently opposed to this of course.  Her thoughts were that they should be allowed to come here but she wants nothing to do with them and wouldn't want them living in her house.  I disagreed with her and said if we are willing to accept these people in to our country, we should be willing to accept them in to our homes.  I think the average Canadian wants that feel good moment of helping someone,my it doesn't want to actually do anything to earn it.  If we can't accept someone in to our home, why. Should they be allowed to settle here?

I agree.  If you do not have the trust in the 'guest' to live in your home, then why be hypocritical about it and allow them into the country and have an affect on other Canadians peace of mind.
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Re: SYR Refugees to Canada (split fm SYR refugees thread)
« Reply #45 on: November 01, 2015, 07:33:58 »
I think the average Canadian wants that feel good moment of helping someone,my it doesn't want to actually do anything to earn it.
I think you've hit both ends of the "committment spectrum" - "so happy to have 'em that I'll put some up" to "let 'em in as long as they don't disturb my chunk of the universe".

Not to mention the extension of the spectrum to cover the "none are too many" camp.

If you do not have the trust in the 'guest' to live in your home, then why be hypocritical about it and allow them into the country and have an affect on other Canadians peace of mind.
NIMBY defined right there.
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Offline E.R. Campbell

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Re: SYR Refugees to Canada (split fm SYR refugees thread)
« Reply #46 on: November 01, 2015, 09:13:15 »
As I have made clear, I think, in  these fora, I believe that our, global, response to refugees is, to be charitable, madness.

I believe that most legitimate refugees want to return to their homes and our second priority should be to help them to do that.

Our first priority ought to be to make them safe (and reasonably comfortable) as close to home as possible.

Priority 1 costs money: to persuade neighbouring states to accept refugees; to build and staff camps with schools and hospitals and, and, and ... and, when the camps in the regions are full to overflowing, to build new camps farther away. But, camps from which almost all the refugees will, eventually return to their homes, not new homes in far away, foreign lands.

Priority 2 costs even more: making the place from which refugees fled safe, may, likely will require concerted, swift, violent, large scale military action.

But doing 1 and 2, in fairly short order, is the right answer ... doing what we (Canada) proposes is more madness.
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Re: SYR Refugees to Canada (split fm SYR refugees thread)
« Reply #47 on: November 01, 2015, 09:53:40 »
My take?

What is being proposed by the incoming government is not a refugee scheme. A vanishingly small percentage of the 25k that they propose to import from the Middle East will ever return home.

What is being proposed is taking 25k hastily screened people and (effectively) moving them to the front of the immigration queue. I would hope that the quality of the screening remains high, but I have worked around bureaucracies long enough to accept that there will be all sorts of unforeseen second and third order effects.

interesting times....

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Re: SYR Refugees to Canada (split fm SYR refugees thread)
« Reply #48 on: November 01, 2015, 12:05:42 »
good fear mongering?

Lame.  Accusing someone of fear mongering is ripped from the same page book as calling someone a nazi in a political argument.  If you don't think there's valid crap to be afraid of out there you obviously haven't turned on the news or better yet seen it for yourself.  Research some of the problems associated with mass-relocating refugees.



Being weary of the intentions of people who are violently trying to move from safe country to safe country is not fear mongering. If they were fleeing fighting in Syria they should be happy in whatever EU nation they got to.

Yup. There's videos and news articles about them refusing to be located to countries they feel don't provide enough hand outs and free crap, to be blunt.  Country shopping.

So I'm not opposed to allowing Refugees in to the country.  I had a great argument with my significant other about this today though.  I said that I would be willing to allow refugees into Canada on the condition they stay with Canadian families that are willing to house them while they await a residency claim.  I said I would be more than willing to sponsor a family and that they could even live in my house as long as they agreed to follow my rules.

My significant other was vehemently opposed to this of course.  Her thoughts were that they should be allowed to come here but she wants nothing to do with them and wouldn't want them living in her house.  I disagreed with her and said if we are willing to accept these people in to our country, we should be willing to accept them in to our homes.  I think the average Canadian wants that feel good moment of helping someone,my it doesn't want to actually do anything to earn it.  If we can't accept someone in to our home, why. Should they be allowed to settle here?

I think this is the best summery I've seen or will see on the issue.

People want to feel good and tell themselves they've helped out the down trodden but it's another story when their own lives are directly impacted.
Will the new Prime minister be taking in one of these families?




One of my friends was at the same base that took in those refugees years ago.  Lots of stories stories of what happened never hit the news (he said soldiers were basically told to STFU about what was going on).  I do remember there were instances of them bringing in diseases including a big TB scare if I recall correctly.

I agree with SeaKingTacco, they're not looking to return home. Why would they?
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Offline George Wallace

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Re: SYR Refugees to Canada (split fm SYR refugees thread)
« Reply #49 on: November 01, 2015, 12:25:01 »

Yup. There's videos and news articles about them refusing to be located to countries they feel don't provide enough hand outs and free crap, to be blunt.  Country shopping.



Once they do that, they are no longer refugees in my books; but "Economic Migrants".

Harper's Government was working for three years to bring in families of Canadians of Syrian descent, doing the proper screening and ensuring that they would have the family resources and assistance to integrate into Canadian society.  There is no MAGIC WAND that can safely do that in two months and ensure that the "Economic Migrants" that Trudeau wants to bring in will not be a burden on our resources and Welfare System.  I will not dwell on security risks.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2015, 12:30:05 by George Wallace »
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