Author Topic: Married but paying for rations while on course.  (Read 79361 times)

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Offline PMedMoe

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Re: Married but paying for rations while on course.
« Reply #25 on: January 23, 2013, 17:47:53 »
The recruiting centre specifically all members at cflrs. So I am assuming that means everyone.

I'm suspecting they mean recruits on BMQ as that is a posting.  Anyone going to CFLRS on courses such as PLQ, ILP, etc should be on TD from their home units and not subject to R&Q.
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Re: Married but paying for rations while on course.
« Reply #26 on: January 23, 2013, 18:23:47 »
Very very brief run down.

Recently enrolled pers who are Married/Common-Law at the time of enrolment, will pay for Rations at both BMQ/BMOQ and ALSO during occupational/phase training if they are separated from their dependants.  Personnel who are currently serving (ie; reached OFP) and are undergoing OT are different and in these cases, everything depends on what method is used to send them on training (ie; Attach Posted or Posted).
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Married but paying for rations while on course.
« Reply #27 on: January 23, 2013, 18:57:39 »
Hoping to see lots of AP/TD msgs vice posted prohibited.
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Offline jeffb

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Re: Married but paying for rations while on course.
« Reply #28 on: January 23, 2013, 19:01:12 »
If this policy had been in effect when I joined I would not have been able to afford it and I would either be a civilian now or bankrupt. It's one thing to say that members who choose to live in the shacks have to pay R & Q and another to order married members into the shacks and then charge them for it. I completely understand for initial training (BMQ, BMOQ) but after that it's unreasonable to order someone to be undergoing the expense of R & Q for months (almost 2 years in my case). We like to talk about taking care of families but if the first thing we do when someone joins the CF is this, then I think we need to reevaluate our priorities.

Will members still be entitled to PLD at their primary residence while on prohibited posting?
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Married but paying for rations while on course.
« Reply #29 on: January 23, 2013, 19:12:20 »
In other developments WRT R & Q, there is a CANAIRGEN (released not long ago) WRT de-linking R & Q. 
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Married but paying for rations while on course.
« Reply #30 on: January 23, 2013, 19:16:30 »
Does this also apply to those on PLQ? or just BMQ?

Rather than applying to a certain course, it will pertain to the mbr's posting and career status/situation.  Members posted prohibited with their D HG & E in another location who occupy SQ will pay R & Q.  Members who are attach posted, or on Temporary Duty for a course and who have D HG & E at their posting location will not pay R & Q.

If AP or TD and not married/common law but maintain a residence, those mbr's will not pay quarters but will pay rations.

*IIRC
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Married but paying for rations while on course.
« Reply #31 on: January 23, 2013, 19:24:15 »

Will members still be entitled to PLD at their primary residence while on prohibited posting?

Yes, IAW current policy if their place of enrolment is a place of duty and their D HG & E is in the PLDA.
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Offline Ostrozac

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Re: Married but paying for rations while on course.
« Reply #32 on: January 23, 2013, 22:08:04 »

If AP or TD and not married/common law but maintain a residence, those mbr's will not pay quarters but will pay rations.

*IIRC

I'm not so sure about that -- I haven't seen anything that says that single pers on Temporary Duty are required to pay for their rations. Besides, the CFTDI hasn't been amended since this whole reduction of benefits push broke in July 2012. Similar story with Attached Posting -- Attached Posting is a different thing from Temporary Duty, but they receive similar meal benefits according to the CFTDI version that's posted online (revised 1 Jan 2012).

There may well be a new version of CFTDI coming out that insists that we all start foraging the countryside for food, but it hasn't hit the street yet.

Offline NavyHopeful

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Re: Married but paying for rations while on course.
« Reply #33 on: January 24, 2013, 09:22:17 »
It is probably these two paragraphs (4 and 5) of CANFORGEN 159/12 that the clerks are referring to (and also what your POs seem to be doing):

Yeah, that's them...  And I'm pretty sure something came down for the bunch of us that it applied to.  I'll have more to post when I get updated.

There may well be a new version of CFTDI coming out that insists that we all start foraging the countryside for food, but it hasn't hit the street yet.

I hope we don't have to forage... I suck at it...  ;D

Offline Pandora114

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Re: Married but paying for rations while on course.
« Reply #34 on: January 24, 2013, 09:51:59 »
Hmm..

This thread made me really think, and send an email off to my recruiter to get a straight answer for my situation (not the PLQ..that's my husband's situation)  That way we can be prepared and budget appropriately when I go off on my training.

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Married but paying for rations while on course.
« Reply #35 on: January 24, 2013, 10:02:20 »
Hmm..

This thread made me really think, and send an email off to my recruiter to get a straight answer for my situation (not the PLQ..that's my husband's situation)  That way we can be prepared and budget appropriately when I go off on my training.

If you are going PRes, you won't have to worry at all.  PLQ is a AP or TD course.
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Offline Pandora114

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Re: Married but paying for rations while on course.
« Reply #36 on: January 24, 2013, 10:19:02 »
If you are going PRes, you won't have to worry at all.  PLQ is a AP or TD course.

No, husband is going on PLQ *again* once his leg is fixed up (Had to be RTU'd because of the break happening on the course).  He didn't have to pay for rations when he was there, but he might be going back after the fiscal year switches over so things might be different.  Hence why I asked.

I'm enlisting as Reserves as RMS Clerk, app is sitting in CFRC Halifax as I type this, just waiting on the call  for my testing.  It's cool, I sent an email to my recruiter and I'll probably hear back from him tomorrow.   

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Married but paying for rations while on course.
« Reply #37 on: January 24, 2013, 10:26:38 »
No, husband is going on PLQ *again* once his leg is fixed up (Had to be RTU'd because of the break happening on the course).  He didn't have to pay for rations when he was there, but he might be going back after the fiscal year switches over so things might be different.  Hence why I asked.

And as I said, PLQ is AP (Attach Posted) or TD (Temp Duty) to the TE (Trg Establishment) and not affected.

Quote
I'm enlisting as Reserves as RMS Clerk, app is sitting in CFRC Halifax as I type this, just waiting on the call  for my testing.  It's cool, I sent an email to my recruiter and I'll probably hear back from him tomorrow.   

Great.  But you can't be posted as PRes, so you will be TD for your courses likely on a Cl B route letter.  IR status, posted prohibited, etc doesn't apply to a reservist.

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Offline Pandora114

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Re: Married but paying for rations while on course.
« Reply #38 on: January 24, 2013, 10:38:08 »
Sweet.  We're just skimming the surface here as it is.  (and I'm also filing this away in my brain database for when I am a clerk)  Clerks should know this stuff anyway. 

Offline NavyHopeful

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Re: Married but paying for rations while on course.
« Reply #39 on: January 24, 2013, 12:57:59 »
OK... So I have some more information regarding this.  My PO gave me a copy of an email that pertains to this subject, and was sent through our trade career manager from the BTL management.

Basically, the crux of it is that any BTL NCM students that who were enrolled before 1 Sep 12 and will remain on the BTL after 1 Feb 13 are among those who qualify for this.  (NCMs who are in training now at different units, and NCM-SEPs are among the numbers)

If the member is leaving CFLRS to their next unit, CFLRS will remain the parent unit, and the member will be sent to the next training location on Attached Posting.

NCM-SEP students will remain posted with their applicable ULO and sent on to their next training location after graduation on Attached Posting.

Anyone who is already Prohibited Posted and on their courses (like me), and wre entitled to R&Q at public expense, will be posted RESTRICTED out of thier schools and into their first employing unit by the D Mil C Career Managers.  The employing units will immediately Attach Post the students back to the school to complete their training.  After graduating the required training, the member would THEN move to their employing unit, and the gaining CO will be able to lift the restrictions and allow the move of family and HG&E.

As far as I know, this only applies to NCMs under the old rules.  I was also told that a new CANFORGEN should be out soon about this, but the email was sent now, just in case the CANFORGEN isn't released by 1 Feb 13, so that our staff and clerks have some sort of guideline...

So now, we wait and see what happens next, I guess...

Offline once a gunner

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Re: Married but paying for rations while on course.
« Reply #40 on: January 25, 2013, 07:44:50 »
this whole thing sickens me.......I think that married or not.......anyone on course for mil trg, should get free R&Q.  Once you finish trg, and live in shacks / PMQ's then you are responsible for your own R&Q.  what's comming next.....a rental fee for use of the uniforms we have to wear? 

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Offline DAA

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Re: Married but paying for rations while on course.
« Reply #41 on: January 25, 2013, 08:05:18 »
OK... So I have some more information regarding this.  My PO gave me a copy of an email that pertains to this subject, and was sent through our trade career manager from the BTL management.

Basically, the crux of it is that any BTL NCM students that who were enrolled before 1 Sep 12 and will remain on the BTL after 1 Feb 13 are among those who qualify for this.  (NCMs who are in training now at different units, and NCM-SEPs are among the numbers)

If the member is leaving CFLRS to their next unit, CFLRS will remain the parent unit, and the member will be sent to the next training location on Attached Posting.

NCM-SEP students will remain posted with their applicable ULO and sent on to their next training location after graduation on Attached Posting.

Anyone who is already Prohibited Posted and on their courses (like me), and wre entitled to R&Q at public expense, will be posted RESTRICTED out of thier schools and into their first employing unit by the D Mil C Career Managers.  The employing units will immediately Attach Post the students back to the school to complete their training.  After graduating the required training, the member would THEN move to their employing unit, and the gaining CO will be able to lift the restrictions and allow the move of family and HG&E.

As far as I know, this only applies to NCMs under the old rules.  I was also told that a new CANFORGEN should be out soon about this, but the email was sent now, just in case the CANFORGEN isn't released by 1 Feb 13, so that our staff and clerks have some sort of guideline...

So now, we wait and see what happens next, I guess...

That's one way to sort of solve the problem.  The only follow on issues to something like this would be with respect to training failures but that would be addressed in due course.
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Offline NavyHopeful

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Re: Married but paying for rations while on course.
« Reply #42 on: January 25, 2013, 08:31:47 »
this whole thing sickens me.......I think that married or not.......anyone on course for mil trg, should get free R&Q.  Once you finish trg, and live in shacks / PMQ's then you are responsible for your own R&Q.

It would allow for some kind of equality, I'm sure.  But that sort of argument is a bit out of my lane.  I only know what I know.

That's one way to sort of solve the problem.  The only follow on issues to something like this would be with respect to training failures but that would be addressed in due course.

It will certainly make it easier to post people out of BMQ.  As for the members on qualification courses right now (like myself), it will definitely add more paperwork to their file.  But as long as the problem has been or gets resolved, it'll go a long way to assist the members caught in the crossfire.

what's comming next.....a rental fee for use of the uniforms we have to wear? 

With all the kit Navy personnel get issued, I certainly hope not...  Could you imagine the cost?

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Re: Married but paying for rations while on course.
« Reply #43 on: January 25, 2013, 09:32:28 »
Quote from: NavyHopeful
With all the kit Navy personnel get issued, I certainly hope not...  Could you imagine the cost?

/off topic

You have not seen how much kit our friends in green are issued.

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Offline jwtg

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Re: Married but paying for rations while on course.
« Reply #44 on: January 25, 2013, 10:16:52 »
this whole thing sickens me.......I think that married or not.......anyone on course for mil trg, should get free R&Q.  Once you finish trg, and live in shacks / PMQ's then you are responsible for your own R&Q.  what's comming next.....a rental fee for use of the uniforms we have to wear?
I always heard that the reason for waiving R&Q is so that people aren't paying for R&Q as well as rent and groceries.  In the case of a married member, like myself, my wife and I eat perfectly well on 400-450$ a month in groceries.  I would be paying more than it costs my family for groceries if I were required to pay rations while on course; I also pay rent, so paying for rations & quarters when it's the CF who is imposing the separation and added expense doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

The flaws I see with your logic are that people could join off the street and freeload despite not having to pay R&Q anywhere else (Joe graduates from college where he lived at home, enrolls in the CF and moves out of mommy's house for the first time, and goes on to live for free, courtesy of the taxpayers).  This seems like an irresponsible use of taxpayers money to me.

The most obvious example I can think of is RMC- essentially a 4 year long 'course' with other courses occurring during the summers.  RMC cadets pay R&Q and it makes sense to have them continue to do so.  The exceptions to the rule are those cadets who are married/common-law and who have spouses elsewhere, either in Kingston or elsewhere.


Offline Quellefille

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Re: Married but paying for rations while on course.
« Reply #45 on: January 25, 2013, 10:26:26 »
this whole thing sickens me.......I think that married or not.......anyone on course for mil trg, should get free R&Q.  Once you finish trg, and live in shacks / PMQ's then you are responsible for your own R&Q.  what's comming next.....a rental fee for use of the uniforms we have to wear?

Well the thing is the guys living in the shacks with no family, their stuff is being held in storage, at the gov'ts expense so the gov't is paying for their lodgings, but not paying twice

As for food, well the guys with a family back home are already buying groceries and they could be fed at home for a fraction of the cost.  Wheras Pvt. Bloggins with no family isn't buying any groceries.


Question though, from someone who doesn't speak acronym:  BTL means what?

Offline Ostrozac

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Re: Married but paying for rations while on course.
« Reply #46 on: January 26, 2013, 08:59:53 »

Question though, from someone who doesn't speak acronym:  BTL means what?

The BTL is the Basic Training List -- in general terms, it's the positions that exist for personnel who are undergoing initial training and have not yet reached their first operational unit. It is also used for personnel that are in the process of transferring from one occupation to another -- this means that when you are undergoing initial training you are not assigned to a position in an operational unit.

There is also a similar thing called the Advanced Training List -- this is used for things like year long French courses... if your Company Commander needs a year long French course, he can be posted to the ATL, allowing another Major to move into his old spot and command that company. If he was just Temporary Duty or Attached Posted to a language school, he would still be assigned to his old position, and he couldn't be backfilled.

Offline ArmyVern

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Re: Married but paying for rations while on course.
« Reply #47 on: January 26, 2013, 10:03:30 »
The BTL is the Basic Training List -- in general terms, it's the positions that exist for personnel who are undergoing initial training and have not yet reached their first operational unit. It is also used for personnel that are in the process of transferring from one occupation to another -- this means that when you are undergoing initial training you are not assigned to a position in an operational unit.

There is also a similar thing called the Advanced Training List -- this is used for things like year long French courses... if your Company Commander needs a year long French course, he can be posted to the ATL, allowing another Major to move into his old spot and command that company. If he was just Temporary Duty or Attached Posted to a language school, he would still be assigned to his old position, and he couldn't be backfilled.

I await the rumored upcoming CANFORGEN (if true: nothing like waiting until the last minute to communicate  ... yet again). 

I think it will be interesting to see if it addresses BTL in the manner someone suggested below and if ATL pers will be treated in the same respect - else we have just set yet another double standard.  I was posted restricted to the ATL for the 10 month SLT at a location away from where my spouse was posted to/family was at.  I haven't been posted to the same base as my spouse since (we've both had other postings since my "year"-long course), just not to the same places as each other.

I am quite looking forward to that same system reducing me to rent only eff 01 Feb (what about my other expenses that I too am already paying for at home? Basic phone so I can call and actually TALK to my family? My laundry expenses because I have to use a laundromat here but own and pay for washer/dryer at home etc etc etc?? Not even to mention that our family now requires two vehicles for work purposes/travel each day).  If the above groups are treated in same manner, then we have yet another double standard between them ... and us who have been posted "not through choice" to a location separated from our families for even longer periods of time than a 10 month long course etc.  Should they be covered and me not because the CF only chose to post them away from their families for 1-2 years on courses while they chose to post me away from mine for 4+ years now??
« Last Edit: January 26, 2013, 10:30:11 by ArmyVern »
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Offline Quellefille

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Re: Married but paying for rations while on course.
« Reply #48 on: January 28, 2013, 09:51:15 »
I am quite looking forward to that same system reducing me to rent only eff 01 Feb (what about my other expenses that I too am already paying for at home? Basic phone so I can call and actually TALK to my family? My laundry expenses because I have to use a laundromat here but own and pay for washer/dryer at home etc etc etc?? Not even to mention that our family now requires two vehicles for work purposes/travel each day).  If the above groups are treated in same manner, then we have yet another double standard between them ... and us who have been posted "not through choice" to a location separated from our families for even longer periods of time than a 10 month long course etc.  Should they be covered and me not because the CF only chose to post them away from their families for 1-2 years on courses while they chose to post me away from mine for 4+ years now??

I feel for you.  This canforgen was meant to address the people abusing the IR system, and its really just screwing over those who don't.  And it seems that the push is to fix if for folks like my husband, on BTL, vs you, who've given your all and already made huge sacrifices.  Which isn't fair cause honestly, the army needs folks like you just as much if not slightly more than new folks like my husband
« Last Edit: January 28, 2013, 09:59:07 by Quellefille »

Offline NavyHopeful

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Re: Married but paying for rations while on course.
« Reply #49 on: January 28, 2013, 10:20:44 »
I feel for you.  This canforgen was meant to address the people abusing the IR system, and its really just screwing over those who don't.  And it seems that the push is to fix if for folks like my husband, on BTL, vs you, who've given your all and already made huge sacrifices.  Which isn't fair cause honestly, the army needs folks like you just as much if not slightly more than new folks like my husband

 :goodpost: