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The Newsroom => International Defence and Security => Topic started by: George Wallace on November 13, 2008, 20:52:00

Title: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: George Wallace on November 13, 2008, 20:52:00
Just for those who may feel that all is well and that they have no fear of terrorism or violence here in Canada:  (Link in Title)

Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.

Ottawa prof arrested, suspect in 1980 Paris bombing (http://news.sympatico.msn.ctv.ca/Bell.Sympatico.CMS/Print.aspx?type=feed&lang=en&channel=news.sympatico.msn.ctv.ca&feedname=ctv-topstories_v3&newsitemid=ctvnews/20081113/diab_arrest_081113&show=&number=&showbyline=true&subtitle=)

CTV.ca News Staff

The RCMP has arrested a Canadian man in Quebec at the request of France, which accuses the man of being behind a bomb attack that killed four people at a Paris synagogue in 1980.


The Department of Justice confirmed to CTV.ca that Hassan Diab, 55, was arrested at his home in Gatineau, Quebec Thursday.

"The arrest was made under a provisional arrest warrant for extradition as a request from France," Justice spokesperson Chris Girouard said.

Under a provisional arrest warrant, the official extradition request must be filed within 45 days. Diab will have a bail hearing within 24 hours of his arrest, according to Girouard.

France's Minister of the Interior, Michele Alliot-Marie, confirmed the arrest Thursday and credited cooperation between Canadian and French authorities.

Diab is a part-time sociology professor at the University of Ottawa, CTV News has learned. According to the university officials, he teaches one class at the undergraduate level.

Diab is also listed as a contract instructor in the department of sociology and anthropology at Carleton University for the fall of 2008. Carleton officials could not be reached for comment Thursday evening.

Two French anti-terrorism judges travelled to Canada earlier this week according to The Associated Press. Investigators are searching Diab's home and office for clues, including DNA samples.

A year ago the story broke that Diab was being investigated by French authorities. He told French media it was a case of mistaken identity.

Three French citizens and one Israeli woman were killed outside a synagogue in a posh area of Paris when a bomb went off minutes before a crowd of people were due to emerge from the synagogue. Twenty others were hurt.

The attack took place on a Friday evening, at the start of the Jewish Sabbath. More than 200,000 marched in France to protest the attack.

According to the French magazine L'Express, French authorities believe the bombing was arranged by a Palestinian militant group involved in a dispute with Yasser Arafat's Palestine Liberation Organization.

Diab's name was attached to the group by German intelligence, The Associated Press is reporting.

(News footage on Link.)
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: twistedcables on November 16, 2008, 18:19:27
Notwithstanding the usual (and empty) caveats of a presumption of innocence.  I tend to lean towards the side of the agencies that have the information that the media does not (and should not).

I have to say, very few deeds are as low as wanting to bomb a place of worship. That's when you can use the term EVIL appropriately.  Personally, I want to see more initiative from the mainstream Muslim community.  This is not (at all) to suggest we unfairly target a whole community but unless everyone works together, its true what they say: not a question of IF but WHEN.

Vigilance.

"Lest We Forget" should not become an empty phrase.  VIGILANCE is its core.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Shec on November 17, 2008, 09:33:39
I hate to think what this innocent victim of mistaken identity taught the young minds that he was instructing.   A Desert Eagle .50AE is just the ticket for this SoB.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: FastEddy on November 17, 2008, 13:13:38
I hate to think what this innocent victim of mistaken identity taught the young minds that he was instructing.   A Desert Eagle .50AE is just the ticket for this SoB.


Oh ! that's not the Canadian way, "Nox Vulpes" will be very displeased with you.

Cheers.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: twistedcables on November 20, 2008, 12:46:43
SOURCE: Terrorism Focus - Volume V, Issue 39 Jamestown Foundation

SPAIN’S GUARDIA CIVIL SEIZES TERRORIST MANUAL ADVOCATING “SECRECY IN JIHAD”

Spain’s Guardia Civil has released details of a terrorist manual discovered in the Catalonian home of Muhammad Mrabet, a Moroccan national accused of organizing an al-Qaeda cell that sent prospective suicide bombers to Iraq. The most notorious product of Mrabet’s network was Belgacem Bellil, an Algerian who detonated a truck carrying 3,500 pounds of explosives at the Italian camp at al-Nasiriyah in 2003, killing 19 Italian soldiers and nine Iraqis.

As detailed by the Spanish daily El Pais, the 30-page Arabic language document was entitled, “Secrecy in Jihad is a Legitimate Duty - Security Manual" (El Pais [Madrid], November 10). As its title suggests, the manual provides a detailed description of the means and methods of covert operations, as sanctioned by selected Islamic scholars. “Secrecy is a key factor in every war. It is a mistake not to use it for jihad, because the infidel leaders recruit thousands of intelligence agents to obtain information about the mujahideen… Many ulama [religious scholars] allowed the use of lies to achieve a religious benefit that may put an end to the punishment inflicted on Muslims by infidels.”

Practical advice is given on methods of disguise, avoiding surveillance, forging passports, encrypting communications, using invisible ink and how to behave during police interrogations. The structure and functioning of a terrorist cell is explained in detail, with the author insisting the cell’s members must agree on “four key issues: obedience, secrecy, patience and the defense of the amirs.”

Intelligence work is also emphasized. The active jihadi should prepare by studying not only the secret services of his host nation, but also other radical Islamist groups operating in the area in order to divert police attention from the cell if necessary. Earlier successful jihadi operations must be examined in detail and meetings with experienced jihadis should be organized. Secrecy is to be upheld at all times:

It is necessary to change the way of dressing, the haircut, the place of residence, car, daily routes, arrival and departure times, places, and meetings…Use nicknames, false names and codes, even within the members of the same group; speak in a low voice, do not say much; to talk far too much may provide some information to the enemy and damage the rest of the mujahideen.

The author of the jihadi security manual remains unknown. In recent years Catalonia has become known as one of Europe’s most important centers for recruiting and training suicide bombers on their way to Iraq (La Vanguardia [Barcelona], June 3, 2007; see also Terrorism Monitor, June 7, 2007).

***Similar documents have been found among groups arrested all over the world: Canada, the UK, Australia and the U.S.  I am unsure if Netherlands and Denmark have also captured these same docs.

VIGILANCE
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: leroi on November 21, 2008, 11:50:53
Follow-Up to initial article: File on 1980 Paris Bombing Revealed

Reproduced under the fair dealings provision of the Copyright Act

 November 20, 2008 at 8:29 PM EST

OTTAWA — The author of the 1980 bombing of a synagogue paraded in the streets of Paris with two fake Cypriot passports, and carried a stack of $100 U.S. bills to pay for the material used in his deadly deed, according to French police records released Thursday.

The newly unsealed documents are part of the extradition case against Hassan Diab, an Ottawa sociology professor and Canadian citizen born and raised in Lebanon who was arrested in connection with the bombing last week.

According to information collected by French authorities since the 1980 attack, the bomber bought a Suzuki motorcycle for $1,000 U.S. at a store named Moto Shopping Etoile on Sept. 23.

Two days later, the bespectacled terrorist rented a Citroën GS in the French capital.
 
 About 10 kilograms of explosives were stashed in bags at the back of the bike, which was blown up 15 metres away from the Copernic Street synagogue on Oct. 3, killing four people and injuring about 40 others. A few days later, the car was found abandoned in a parking lot, with leftover food inside.

During his stay in Paris, the alleged terrorist was also caught stealing wire cutters and paid $100 U.S. for a night at his Celtic Hotel room with a prostitute, who pointed out his smoking habits and the fact he was circumcised.

French authorities feel the carnage would have been much worse had the bomb detonated 25 minutes later, as hundreds of worshippers were exiting, and if security measures had not prevented the terrorist from parking the motorcycle any closer.

Twenty-eight years later, Mr. Diab appeared in an Ottawa court, fighting extradition to France where he is accused of murder, attempted murder, and willful destruction of property by an organized group, all in relation to attack ...

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20081120.wdiab1120/BNStory?cid=al_gam_nletter_newsUp

Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: George Wallace on November 23, 2008, 20:00:17
Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act:    (Link in Title)

Wife says accused prof is innocent in Paris blast (http://ottawa.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20081121/paris_bombing_081121/20081121/?hub=OttawaHome)

Updated: Fri Nov. 21 2008 13:58:40

The Canadian Press

OTTAWA — The wife of a university professor accused in a 1980 Paris terrorist bombing says she is confident her husband had nothing to do with the attack.

French police allege Hassan Diab played a role in the blast at a synagogue which killed four people. They are seeking his extradition.

Diab's wife, Rania Tfaily, herself a university professor, told an Ontario Superior Court hearing on Friday she believes the charges against him are a mistake.

She says she's prepared to post thousands of dollars in bail.

Diab has been in custody since his arrest last week and is seeking bail as part of his extradition hearing.

Tfaily says their relationship has been strained in the last year, but she still supports him.

"I believe he's innocent, I've known him for some time," Tfaily told Justice Michel Charbonneau of Ontario Superior Court.

Questioned by federal lawyer Claude Lefrancois, she said she and Diab had discussed political events throughout their relationship including terrorism, the deaths of innocent people and mass murder.

"I know enough of that to realize he would never do such a thing," she said.

"It is not going to be the first time or the last time that innocent people are accused," she said.

The RCMP arrested Diab, 55, at the request of French authorities, who submitted affidavits to back their claim of Diab's involvement in the deadly attack.

The evidence includes claims by French police that Diab used an alias and a false Cypriot passport to enter France in 1980 before buying a motorscooter that carried explosives that detonated outside the synagogue.

The evidence also includes police sketches of the bombing suspect based on witness descriptions, and old passport photos.

Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: George Wallace on November 23, 2008, 20:04:35
Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act:    (Link in Title)


Bombing suspect's ex-wife questioned his marriage motivation (http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=523ca719-fce1-42aa-bda5-f71ca36787b4)

Terrorist allegations come as complete surprise
Cassandra Drudi, The Ottawa Citizen
Published: Sunday, November 23, 2008
The American ex-wife of a man accused in one of Europe's most shocking terrorist incidents suspected their marriage may have been a ploy to get an U.S. green card and was not surprised when she was questioned by authorities about their relationship a few weeks ago.

"That was under suspect from the very get-go," said Heather Winne, 35, of Hassan Naim Diab's marriage intentions.

A green card, or permanent resident card, gives its bearer official immigration status in the United States.

Mr. Diab, 55, was arrested at his Hull apartment on Nov. 13. He is wanted by French authorities in connection with a terrorist bombing at a Paris synagogue in October 1980 that killed four and injured dozens.

The allegations against Mr. Diab came as a shock to Ms. Winne, but she was not surprised that someone might want to question her about their relationship.

"The bombing, yes, I was surprised about. It totally took me off guard."

Ms. Winne was questioned for several hours while at work. She would not say who had questioned her.

Ms. Winne and Mr. Diab met in 1993 when he was an adjunct professor at Syracuse University where she was taking sociology classes, Ms. Winne said. They married in 1994 and separated in October 1995, when their daughter was born. The divorce was finalized in 1996.

"When my daughter was born things kind of took a turn for the worst," she said.

Ms. Winne's daughter, now 13, had been in contact with Mr. Diab over the phone and online until about two weeks before "this whole episode" took place, she said.

"Things came out online maybe a week after I was spoken to," Ms. Winne said. "I've followed the story very close, so I'm just waiting to hear the outcome."

René Duval, Mr. Diab's lawyer, said the idea that his client may have been motivated to marry Ms. Winne for U.S. permanent resident status is unfounded.

"Based on my confidential knowledge of certain information, this is sheer nonsense. This is yet again another way of trying to discredit Mr. Diab," he said.

"It's basically a smearing campaign. That's what it is."

© The Ottawa Citizen 2008



Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: twistedcables on November 23, 2008, 22:51:12
Hence the attention paid to immigration policies and fighting terrorism.  It's not about being xenophobic - that's just stupid - it's about taking a critical look at entry points as a natural course of action in any coherent security program.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: FastEddy on November 24, 2008, 13:38:30
[quote
[/quote]

What would you expect a Wife or Mother to say ?.

Let the Courts and his peers decide if he's Innocent.

Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Spanky on November 24, 2008, 16:22:30
Oh his wife says he's innocent!  Well, that's good enough for me!  ::)
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: D3 on November 24, 2008, 17:11:00
What do his neighbours say?  Was he " A nice quiet guy"
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Greymatters on November 26, 2008, 19:44:54
“Secrecy in Jihad is a Legitimate Duty - Security Manual" (El Pais [Madrid], November 10).

Unlikely, but has anyone found a link to a copy of this available on-line?
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: leroi on December 04, 2008, 12:13:05
This slide show by Martin Rudner and Angela Gendron is worth viewing. Martin Rudner has been warning Canadians of the internal threat for some time. Unfortunately, Canadian MSM and some politicians have often not taken him seriously.

Penetrating Terror Threats: Counterintelligence as Counter Terrorism.

(Courtesy of The Canadian Centre of Intelligence And Security Studies.)

http://www.cacp.ca/media/events/efiles/103/DrMartinRudnerMs.pdf


***Mods, please feel free to move***
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Greymatters on December 04, 2008, 12:38:17
That organization (CCISS) was only formed in 2002 - saying its been around 'for some time' is an exaggeration.

Having said that, its nice to see a half-decent presentation on the subject...

Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: leroi on December 04, 2008, 13:06:00
This slide show by Martin Rudner and Angela Gendron is worth viewing. Martin Rudner has been warning Canadians of the internal threat for some time. Unfortunately, Canadian MSM and some politicians have often not taken him serious.


Actually Greymatters, if you re-read my highlighted sentence above, you'll see that's not what I said. It makes no claim that the organization has been around 'for some time.' My sentnce indicates Martin Rudner has been warning Canadians 'for some time'.


Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Greymatters on December 04, 2008, 14:34:34
My error, I was going by the org not the person...
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: George Wallace on December 04, 2008, 21:25:54
Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.    (Link in Title)

Ottawa prof loses bid for bail in 1980 bombing case (http://ottawa.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20081203/OTT_diab_bail_081203/20081204/?hub=OttawaHome)


Updated: Thu Dec. 04 2008 10:10:52

The Canadian Press

A university professor facing murder charges from a 1980 bombing in Paris has been denied bail as he awaits hearings for extradition to France.

Hassan Diab has been in custody since his arrest Nov. 13 at the request of French authorities, who allege he was involved in the explosion that killed four people outside a synagogue in the French capital.

Canadian government lawyers had argued Diab would be a flight risk if he was allowed to go free before the extradition proceedings begin, likely next month.

Ontario Superior Court Justice Michel Charbonneau agreed, saying in his ruling Wednesday that "all the ingredients exist to spur a flight in this case."

Charbonneau said evidence in the bail hearings last month -- including extensive trips in and out of Lebanon from 1998 to 2006 and a history of residence in several countries -- suggests Diab "does not have any real ties anywhere."

The judge added that evidence provided by the French government, while circumstantial, will "more likely than not" meet the threshold to justify extradition.

He said he was not basing his decision to keep Diab in custody on the basis of the information provided by the French government -- which could eventually could "fall like a house of cards" in a trial -- but noted the burden of proof for extradition is lower.

French police affidavits claim evidence links Diab, 55, to the purchase of a motor scooter that was used to place the explosives in front of the synagogue. French authorities allege he belonged to a terrorist group backing an independent Palestinian state at the time.

But Diab's Quebec-based lawyer, Rene Duval, argued it was a case of mistaken identity and said Diab was attending university in Beirut, Lebanon, at the time of the attack.

Diab has been a part-time sociology lecturer at Carleton University and the University of Ottawa for the last year.

His wife, Rania Tfaily, is a full-time professor at Carleton University and offered to put up bail and vouch for Diab's release conditions.

But Charbonneau noted the relationship between Diab and Tfaily, 24 years younger than Diab, was unstable and had only begun in 2006 after Tfaily obtained her position at Carleton University.

The judge noted Diab moved from Tfaily's Ottawa condominium last year into an apartment sublet in Gatineau, Que., and the pair gave contradictory reasons for the separation as well as the amount of time Diab later spent at Tfaily's residence.

Charbonneau also said Diab's failure to report the loss of his passport in 1981 for nearly two years "suggests he may have familiarity with forged documents." Part of the French evidence centres on the lost passport, which Italian police found on a man they arrested in 1981.

A Quebec judge in Gatineau will hear a request Thursday for the transfer to French authorities of evidence and material the RCMP seized from Diab's apartment when he was arrested. France has until Dec. 28 to formally request extradition, and hearings to decide whether he should be sent to France are likely to begin in late January or February.

The judge hearing the extradition case must be convinced a jury of reasonably informed Canadians could find Diab guilty based on the evidence France has provided.

Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: George Wallace on December 16, 2008, 09:20:24
Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.    (Link in Title)

Police defuse bombs at Paris department store (http://news.sympatico.msn.ctv.ca/abc/home/contentposting.aspx?isfa=1&feedname=CTV-TOPSTORIES_V3&showbyline=True&date=true&newsitemid=CTVNews%2f20081216%2fParis_explosives_081216)

A Paris news agency says an Afghan group has taken responsibility for explosives that were planted in a high-end Paris department store.


16/12/2008 7:39:30 AM

CTV.ca News Staff

Police defused the bombs earlier today after the explosives were found in the rest rooms of the prestigious Printemps Department Store, a favoured shopping spot with tourists.

The store was evacuated and anti-crime brigades and the bomb squad were called in. French TV later reported that five devices had been located and disarmed. No one was injured during the incident.

CTV's London Bureau Chief Tom Kennedy told Canada AM that authorities are trying to determine how serious the threat was.

He said after authorities neutralized the bombs, government officials announced that there were no detonators attached to the devices.

"We also know there was a phone call that went to Agence France Presse in Paris, (telling AFP) to warn the police that these devices were in the department store. Nevertheless, there is a lot of concern," Kennedy said, speaking from London.

"The group claiming responsibility is called the Afghan Revolutionary Front. They're calling for the removal from Afghanistan of all French troops by early in the new year."

Kennedy said little else is known about the group. AFP reported that the group said the bombs were supposed to go off on Wednesday. France has about 3,000 troops in Afghanistan.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: leroi on February 12, 2009, 19:11:44

By Ian MacLeod, Ottawa Citizen

(Reproduced in accordance with the Fair Dealing Provision of the Copyright Act.)

http://canadianarmedforcesblogger.blogspot.com/2009/02/number-of-homegrown-suspected.html

Number of Homegrown Suspected Terrorists Higher Than Ever: RCMP

OTTAWA, Ontario — Canadians should be concerned but shouldn’t overreact to news that more homegrown extremists and suspected terrorists are believed operating here than ever before, says the RCMP’s top national security officer.

In his first in-depth interview since assuming command of the nascent National Security Criminal Investigations unit, Assistant Commissioner Bob Paulson said more terrorism arrests are expected in coming months.

“The threat we’re facing today is as threatening as it’s ever been,” he said during a hour-long talk in his headquarter’s office this week. “We’re as busy as we’ve ever been and a little busier, frankly,” but he added that the sky is not falling.

“You want Canadians and people who have a role to play to be engaged and you want them to understand the nature of the threat, but you have to balance that against the Chicken Little criticism.

“Even discussing national security investigations publicly and openly runs the risk of being misunderstood of saying, ‘the sky is falling.’ The threat is a significant threat (and) we and other agencies of the government are actively managing that threat.”

He said the increase in national security criminal cases — from 848 last May to an undisclosed but larger number now — is “marginal” and “nothing that people ought to be excessively worried about. That’s what we get paid to do.”

More concerning is the evolving origin of the threat.

“Historically, it’s always been the threat from somewhere else in the world coming over here. But it’s no secret to anyone that a larger part of the threat is the so-called homegrown threat and that’s certainly the lion’s share of the threat that we’re dealing with.”

Homegrown radicalization is now at the top of the government’s national security agenda. Several of the biggest terror attacks and threats in the West in recent years, from the transit attacks in Madrid and London to the foiled “liquid bomb” airline plotters, have come from previously unremarkable, law-abiding citizens largely unknown to authorities.

The official concern is also partly a reflection of concerns about potential blowback from Canada’s involvement in Afghanistan and the terrorism prosecutions of Ottawa’s Momin Khawaja and the pending “Toronto 18” cases.

NSCI has laid charges in two other terrorism cases — the continuing trial of a Quebec man charged with supporting the Global Islamic Media Front, the propaganda arm of al-Qaida, and last year’s arrest of an Ontario man for allegedly collecting money for the outlawed Tamil Tigers, the only person ever charged with terrorist financing in Canada.


The stinging 2006 report and recommendations of the O’Connor Commission into the Maher Arar affair led to a fundamental re-organization of NSCI, with a priority on centralized oversight of national security investigations, including targeting, evidence-based decision-making, information collection and sharing and quality control.

“My desire (is) to re-establish a trust with people,” said the assistant commissioner, whose police career ranges from general patrol duties in British Columbia to senior positions fighting the Hells Angels and organized crime. Now 50, the Lachute, Que., native joined the Mounties in 1986 after a stint as a Canadian Forces pilot.

Since taking over NSCI in May, “I’m very satisfied that we have the business processes and systems that permit me to defend the criticism that we’re loosey-goosey sharing information all the time. The RCMP has pulled out all the stops in terms of implementing O’Connor’s recommendations and there were considerable costs associated to that.”

He also commented on:

• The need for manufacturers of leading-edge communications equipment to “build in a backdoor for authorities who — when properly authorized by the judiciary as we have always had to have been — can get access so that we don’t have to build research and development commensurate with leading state-of-the-art technology.”

In previous cases where judges authorized police to intercept suspects’ electronic communications, “if the gizmo was the latest version, then our tech guys would say, ‘we don’t know where to hook it up.’

“The objectives of justice shouldn’t be defeated by advancements in technology if everybody understands and signs off on the fact that the processes that permit authorizations of the state to eavesdrop or intercept are properly governed.”

• On co-operation with the Canadian Security Intelligence Service: “As good as it’s ever been.”

• On whether he knows why the Americans continue to harbour suspicions of terrorism against Maher Arar. “No.”

• On why there have been no espionage arrests in Canada in recent years, despite repeated statements by CSIS and others that some foreign intelligence services are engaged in aggressive industrial, economic and state-secret spying (and proliferation activities) in Canada:

“Oh yeah, it’s going on. My objective in this program is to bring these cases that come to our attention to resolution through prosecution, that’s my preferred course of action. But there are alternative ways of dealing with some of these threats (such as) disruption, and sometimes we’re forced to do that. You can’t arrest your way out and charge your way out of everything. So sometimes, there’s maybe just confronting people and saying, ‘we’re on to you, cut it out.’ ”

• On the importance of counter-radicalization philosophies and reaching out to Muslim, Sri Lankan, East Indian and other ethnic communities in Canada.

“We are seeing people accepting us, but we continue to face day-to-day-to-day suspicious of our motives. When I was a uniformed police officer, the extent to which I was successful as a criminal investigator was entirely dependent on the contacts I had in the community. And it’s not informants, it’s being able to persuade people that the problems that we face as police are their problems and if people buy in, which they ought to, then you got something.”

But there’s fine line to walk between that and being seen as recruiting sources or spying on the community.

“If the community senses that at all, then it’s ineffective, the trust is gone.”
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: old medic on March 24, 2009, 01:09:00
Partner of accused terrorist to stand by her man
By Jim Brown, THE CANADIAN PRESS
23 March 2009
Quote
OTTAWA — The common-law wife of accused terrorist Hassan Diab says the romantic bloom is off their relationship — but she’s still willing to vouch for his innocence and keep tabs on him if he’s released on bail.

Rania Tfaily, testifying Monday at an Ontario Superior Court hearing, acknowledged she was “annoyed and upset” to discover last year that Diab was having an affair with another woman.,

But that doesn’t change the fact that, in her view, he can’t be guilty of a 1980 synagogue bombing that took four lives in Paris.

“I know his political views,” Tfaily, an assistant professor of demographics at Carleton University, told Justice Robert Maranger. “I know he’s disgusted by mass killing of innocent people.”

Diab, a Lebanese-born Canadian citizen and part-time instructor in sociology at both Carleton and the University of Ottawa, is seeking release on bail while he awaits an extradition hearing later this year.

French authorities want to try him in Paris on charges of murder, attempted murder and destruction of property in the synagogue attack nearly three decades ago.

Tfaily has offered to be Diab’s principal surety, the person responsible for monitoring him and seeing that he abides by any bail conditions.

“It’s not out of love,” she testified. “He’s a nice man but I’m not in love with him. . . . After some time love wears off.”

Nevertheless, said Tfaily, she couldn’t live with herself if she let a man she believes to be innocent remain in jail out of jealousy.

“He’s not charged with marital infidelity,” she said. “This is a criminal case.”

Crown prosecutors oppose Diab’s release. They say there’s a risk he could flee given the seriousness of the charges he faces in France.

But defence lawyer Donald Bayne questioned the strength of the French case, saying the evidence offered would never stand up to scrutiny in Canada.

“This is an extremely weak, criminal case,” said Bayne, arguing that the eyewitness identifications, handwriting analysis and secret intelligence used to buttress the French charges are all suspect.

Diab has told the court he’s willing to abide by whatever bail conditions are imposed, including the wearing of an electronic monitoring device to ensure he remains in the Ottawa area.

Crown attorney Suzanne Schriek raised questions about how Tfaily can act as an effective overseer of bail conditions, given the fact that Diab has deceived her in the past about his travels and his relationships with other women.

She painted him as a man who has engaged in a series of “marriages of convenience” over the years, with extensive contacts in several countries that make him a risk to flee Canada before the extradition can be concluded.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: leroi on April 14, 2009, 00:30:05
Are We Safe Yet?
Eight Years After 9/11, Canada is Still Far From Secure


http://www.walrusmagazine.com/articles/2009.05-security-are-we-safe-yet/

The Walrus: April 19, 2009
Daniel Stoffman

(Reproduced in accordance with the Fair Dealing Provision of the Copyright Act.)

Quote
Imagine, if you will, the following scenario: Terrorists on a small ship approach the Atlantic coast of North America. They’ve got one medium-range missile to carry one small nuclear weapon. As it detonates at high altitude, the bomb triggers a surge of electromagnetic radiation. Voltage spikes fry electrical and electronic equipment. Lights, phones, TV, radio — nothing works. The food in the fridge is rotting. Water stops flowing from taps, because the electrical systems that govern the local reservoir are dead. Dead, too, is the ignition in your car. In the worst-case scenario, we are effectively thrown back to pre-modern times. We have to relearn the survival skills of our ancestors. The hardiest make it, but many don’t.

An electromagnetic pulse attack is the sort of thing that keeps counterterrorism experts up at night. Depending on the blast’s size and location, such an attack could leave all of North America in primitive conditions. The emp threat typifies the terrorist threat. The chances of it happening are low at any given time. But it could happen, because there are international terrorists with the motivation, brains, and patience to pull it off. Osama bin Laden has said it is his “religious duty” to acquire nuclear weapons to attack the West. And al Qaeda has repeatedly cited Canada as one of its targets.

In another nuclear nightmare, terrorists detonate a weapon on the ground. On October 11, 2001, a cia agent code named Dragonfire reported that al Qaeda had stolen a ten-kiloton bomb in Russia and successfully smuggled it into New York City. Exploded at noon in midtown Manhattan, the bomb would have killed 500,000 people immediately, and hundreds of thousands more from collapsing buildings, fire, and fallout.

Dragonfire turned out to be wrong, and the intervening years have seen no major attacks on North American soil. But does that mean we’re safe? Graham Allison, an expert on the threat of nuclear terrorism and director of the Belfer Center for Science and International Affairs at Harvard’s Kennedy School of Government, puts the answer this way: “If the US and other governments just keep doing what they are doing today, a nuclear terrorist attack in a major city is more likely than not by 2014.”

The attacks by al Qaeda on September 11, 2001, killed 2,974 people, including twenty-four Canadians. Since then, authorities in this country have taken several steps to make life harder for terrorists. John Thompson, who heads the Mackenzie Institute, a Toronto-based think tank that studies political instability and organized violence, has a three-part answer to the question of whether or not these measures have made us safer: “Yes, no, and maybe.”

On the face of it, we should be safer. After 9/11, the federal government rushed the Anti-terrorism Act into law, giving police and intelligence agencies broad new powers, including enhanced use of electronic surveillance and the right to arrest people suspected of planning to commit a terrorist act. As well, Ottawa reorganized its security apparatus: It created the new Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness, to improve coordination and information sharing among agencies responsible for national security. It gave the Communications Security Establishment new powers to eavesdrop on private communications. It created the Integrated Threat Assessment Centre. And it launched integrated national security enforcement teams in various parts of Canada, with the aim of disrupting and preventing terrorist activities. There have also been other, more modest improvements. Checked baggage is now screened at Canadian airports, reducing the danger of another Air India disaster. Closed-circuit TV and an increased police presence are helping to protect Canadian transit systems.

All told, we’re now spending $25 billion a year on national security — a figure that encompasses defence, the rcmp, intelligence services, and air, border, and coastal security. Not included in that estimate is the value of the time spent by air travellers lining up to empty their pockets and take off their shoes at security checkpoints. Slowdowns because of increased security at the US land border are costing individuals and businesses millions more. Then there is the curtailed privacy that comes with counterterrorism. It’s too late to do anything once the suicide bomber has walked through the turnstile of the subway station; you have to find out about his plans before he puts them into action, which means security operatives must snoop and watch and eavesdrop. Citizens of totalitarian countries take such things for granted. Most Canadians don’t, at least not yet.

Martin Rudner, founding director of the Canadian Centre of Intelligence and Security Studies at Carleton University, believes the costs of security are worth it. “There is no question in my mind,” he says, “that the reason Canada has been spared a deadly attack since 9/11 is not because the terrorists haven’t tried, but because counterterrorism has succeeded.” To take one example, the strategy of pre-emptive enforcement saw its first visible results last fall, when Canadian prosecutors won their first convictions under the Anti-terrorism Act.

Neither of the convicted individuals had actually committed an act of terrorism, but both, the courts decided, were helping to prepare for such acts. One of them was only seventeen in 2006, when he was arrested for attending two training camps held by the so-called “Toronto 18” cell. He also stole things for the group, which was allegedly scheming to bomb targets in Ontario and behead Prime Minister Stephen Harper. In another case, an Ottawa software developer was found guilty of conspiring to set off fertilizer bombs in England in 2004.

In both instances, the threats were from Islamist terrorism, which has become nearly synonymous with terrorism itself. “Islamist,” in this context, means a radical fundamentalist who rejects the concept of a secular, democratic state, and is prepared to use violence to impose a rigid theocratic rule on society. Of course, not all terrorists are Islamic fundamentalists, but non-Islamist terror groups, such as the Tamil Tigers, are obsessed with local struggles. Most pose little threat to Canada, with the major exception thus far being the Sikh separatists who planted bombs on two airplanes departing from Canada on June 22, 1985, killing a total of 331 people.

Al Qaeda has named Western democracies in general, and Canada in particular, as its enemies. In November 2002, Osama bin Laden warned in a statement broadcast on the Arabic television station Al Jazeera that Canada would be attacked because of its participation in the war in Afghanistan. “What do your governments want from their alliance with America in attacking us in Afghanistan?” he asked. “I mention in particular Britain, France, Italy, Canada, Germany, and Australia. Why should fear, killing, destruction, displacement, orphaning, and widowing continue to be our lot, while security, stability, and happiness be your lot? This is unfair. It is time that we get even. You will be killed just as you kill, and will be bombed just as you bomb.”

In 2004, an al Qaeda manual named Canada as the terrorists’ fifth most important “Christian” target. The people making these threats, says Rudner, are “well-educated intellectuals. Many of the mujahedeen of al Qaeda are engineers and doctors and other professionals. They mean what they say.”

One hundred and fifty jihadist plots have been identified in Europe, North America, and Australia since 9/11. Because of counterterrorism, few have been successful, with the notable exceptions of the attacks on the Madrid commuter trains in 2004, and the London transit system in 2005. Some of the failed plots would have had devastating results. In December 2001, a British convert to Islam tried to blow up a transatlantic flight carrying 198 people by igniting explosives in his shoe. In June 2007, terrorists left two car bombs in central London. One of the cars contained sixty litres of gasoline, gas cylinders, and nails. It was parked outside a nightclub, and if detonated would have killed hundreds of people. In February in London, a trial began of eight men charged with conspiring to kill thousands of people in 2006, by blowing up seven transatlantic planes using liquid bombs made from soft drink bottles and batteries. Two of the targets were Air Canada flights destined for Toronto and Montreal.

The scale of the threat is yet another reason to take it seriously. In 1993, al Qaeda started trying to buy highly enriched uranium in Sudan. And al Qaeda documents seized in Afghanistan gave details of the terror network’s attempts to obtain nuclear materials over several years, until they were expelled from the country after 9/11. “Nothing we know about al Qaeda’s ideology suggests they would have any inhibitions about using such weapons if they could acquire them,” says Wesley Wark, a terrorism expert at the Munk Centre for International Studies at the University of Toronto. “A group with that capacity may simply be undeterrable, both in terms of measures the state would take and any phenomenon of self-deterrence — so, an intent to acquire them and use them, and no restraints. That is why the nightmare is a nightmare.”

According to Matthew Bunn, co-principal investigator of the Project on Managing the Atom at Harvard’s Belfer Center, the ingredients for nuclear weapons exist in hundreds of buildings in forty countries. Some sites are secure, he says, but others “have little more than a night watchman and a chain-link fence.” Once terrorists obtained nuclear material, it would be easy for them to import it into Canada; only 4 percent of containers arriving at our ports are inspected to determine their contents.

Another weapon of mass destruction is biological. To grasp the potential of such an attack, consider a war game called Dark Winter that was conducted by the United States just prior to 9/11 to simulate the effects of a smallpox strike. In the exercise, six days after the first identified case, in Oklahoma City, 2,000 people had the disease and 300 were dead. The worst case predicted by the simulation saw three million Americans infected and one million killed. Should this actually happen, hundreds of thousands of Canadians could die, too.

(page 2 on link above)

Edit: Re-format
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: leroi on April 17, 2009, 20:26:53

Toronto Man Charged With Trying To Export Nuclear Technology To Iran

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2009/04/17/toronto-rcmp-arrest-nuclear-uranium-trandsducers.html

(Placed here in accordance with the Fair Dealing Provision of the Copyright Act.)


CBC News: April 17, 2009

A Toronto man is facing charges of illegally trying to export nuclear technology to Iran, the RCMP said Friday. The charges stem from an alleged attempt to illegally move pressure transducers from Boston to Toronto and onto Dubai, with Iran as the final destination, police said.

"The declared point of destination was Dubai, in the United Arab Emirates. However, we have evidence to support the fact that its ultimate destination was Iran," RCMP Insp. Greg Johnson told a press conference.

The pressure transducers that were seized are used in the uranium enrichment process for weapons-grade products, Johnson said. The transducers have a legitimate commercial use but also can be used for military purposes, the RCMP said.

Police confirmed at least two devices were seized and some of the devices were found when a search warrant was executed in Toronto.

Mahmoud Yadegari, 35, is facing charges under the Customs Act, Export Import Permits Act and the United Nations Act for violating UN sanctions on Iran. Iran insists it is enriching uranium to produce nuclear energy for civilian purposes, but the United States and some European countries accuse Tehran of secretly seeking to build nuclear weapons.

Yadegari, who is a Canadian citizen from Iran, is being held in police custody awaiting a bail hearing in Toronto. Police allege the man took steps to conceal the identification of the transducers so he could export them without required permits.

The charges were made following an eight-week investigation by the RCMP, customs agents, the Department of Foreign Affairs and the U.S. Department of Homeland Security, police said. The investigation is ongoing, Johnson said.

Johnson declined to comment on whether Yadegari is believed to be a part of a larger network or if other arrests related to the devices are pending.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: lovinmysapper on April 17, 2009, 21:49:00
I would like to comment on Dr Martin Rudner's presentation, I have been fortunate to study under him this man is amazing... Agreed he has been warning Canadians for some time now!
As he so eloquently puts it " Imagine this a 20 yr business plan,with extremely intelligent officials in charge" "Doctors, Lawyers MBA's Scientists"..."Imagine board rooms occupied with officials conducting audits and PER's" "This is a well organized, exercised business operation  or another word we are familiar with "Terrorists"

When you look at his presentation take note to the success of every operation that has been conducted in the business plan! they even have Business Continuity Plans !!!!!


THEY WALK AMONG US!!!! enough said!!!

Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: leroi on April 18, 2009, 00:24:57
I would like to comment on Dr Martin Rudner's presentation, I have been fortunate to study under him this man is amazing... Agreed he has been warning Canadians for some time now!
As he so eloquently puts it " Imagine this a 20 yr business plan,with extremely intelligent officials in charge" "Doctors, Lawyers MBA's Scientists"..."Imagine board rooms occupied with officials conducting audits and PER's" "This is a well organized, exercised business operation  or another word we are familiar with "Terrorists"

When you look at his presentation take note to the success of every operation that has been conducted in the business plan! they even have Business Continuity Plans !!!!!


THEY WALK AMONG US!!!! enough said!!!

Lovinmysapper,

You are fortunate to have studied under him.  I don't move in military circles and live in a world, for the main part, that absolutely doesn't believe Canada has any internal threats!

Yes, THEY WALK AMONG US ... one of the Toronto 18's (Toronto 11 now?) camps was a 20 minute car ride from where I live.

Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: George Wallace on July 05, 2009, 19:41:34
Yet another Islamic university student here in Canada, the former VP of the Canadian Arab Federation, mouthing off about Canada and its policies.  If you follow his logic on Native Rights, you wonder how he can overlook the obvious in his argument and stay in Canada.

Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act:

Canada a 'genocidal state': former Arab federation VP (http://www.canada.com/news/Canada+genocidal+state+former+Arab+federation/1756580/story.html)

By Mary Vallis, National PostJuly 3, 2009

TORONTO — A former vice-president of the Canadian Arab Federation is not backing down after posting "F— Canada Day" on his personal Facebook page.

Omar Shaban, a university student in his early twenties, resigned from the CAF's executive Wednesday after his comments, which also referred to Canada as a "genocidal state," provoked an online backlash. Rather than apologize for his remarks, however, he published an extensive blog post on Thursday defending them.

"I regret the dark history this country has," he wrote. "We are only lying to ourselves if we deny the dark past that Canada was founded on. Canada Day is seen as tragic by its true indigenous population. When Canada Day is celebrated for true freedom and not mourned by the indigenous population of Canada for its colonial and dark past, I will gladly show them my support."

Earlier this week, Shaban posted on Facebook that he "couldn't be more ashamed to be Canadian."

He also wrote, "Might as well kill more natives . . . as a token of support for this genocidal state."

As opposition swelled on Canada Day, the CAF released a statement distancing the organization from Shaban, saying it "is proud of its Canadian identity and heritage" and the comments "in no way reflect of CAF nor its feelings towards Canada."

Mohamed Boudjenane, the CAF's executive director, referred to Shaban's comments as a "stupid faux pas."

"He made a stupid mistake we don't agree with, he resigned and the board accepted his resignation," Boudjenane said. "Omar Shaban is a young activist. . . . Obviously, he holds certain views in respect to first nations' rights and he expressed them on Facebook. That has nothing to do with CAF as an organization, but they will be used against us. We're not surprised."

Shaban's online commentary came at a particularly bad time for the CAF, an umbrella organization that represents 40 Arab groups.

In April, the group lost nearly $2 million in federal funding after its president referred to Jason Kenney, the immigration minister, as a "professional *****" for his support of Israel.

In his blog post, Shaban fired back at the CAF's characterization of his departure.

"I resigned from CAF because I do not want to be part of an organization that openly refuses to acknowledge Canada's colonial and shameful history," he wrote.

======================================================

What a frackin idiot.  What are universities producing?

Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: George Wallace on July 05, 2009, 19:49:19
This guy really lowers the IQ of his peers:

Mary Vallis, National Post 
Published: Thursday, July 02, 2009 (http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=1753894)
Quote
According to the CAF's website, Mr. Shaban, 22, was born in Canada and raised in Lebanon. He is a third year international relations student at the University of British Columbia.

Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: lovinmysapper on July 08, 2009, 13:14:21
WOW.... and he is now a Canadian??? we can now refer back to the original title of this
"They Walk Among Us"
Please someone tell me why people walk around thinking that we are safe???? after all this is Canada...Peace keeping country....
 sorry a little rant there!  >:( >:(

"They Walk Among Us" Enough Said!!!!!
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Gunnar on July 08, 2009, 13:20:26
Quote
Earlier this week, Shaban posted on Facebook that he "couldn't be more ashamed to be Canadian."

There's a simple expedient for that, if you have the guts.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on July 08, 2009, 13:31:09
I'd like to blame this d**chead for his comments, but I can't fail to see that, as a society, a country, we the citizens allow this kind of crap to go on.   Maybe not *you* or *me*, but collectively we are failing ourselves, with our "everything must be PC" ways.

I am getting tired of reading or hearing about XYZ-Canadian groups.  You are Canadian, or you are not, to me.  My ancestors came from Scotland and Ireland;  I've never heard my father refer to himself as a Scottish-Canadian, and be part of a group that gets federal funding (aka taxpayers money, which is partly MY money) and then ridicules the very country they live in and our Canadian ways.

Perhaps Omar Shaban (I refuse to put a Mr. in front of that) would be happier living in some other country.  I, for one, would chip in on his bloody plane ticket. 
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: FastEddy on July 08, 2009, 14:50:24


Perhaps Omar Shaban (I refuse to put a Mr. in front of that) would be happier living in some other country.  I, for one, would chip in on his bloody plane ticket.


That my Friend is one of the Great Mysteries of Life, why all these persons figure there is so much wrong here and someother place is so much better, why are they still here ?.

But as you so eloquently put, we are getting exactly what we tolerate and justly deserve. And I am sad to say, it gonna get a lot worse !.

Cheers.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on July 08, 2009, 15:07:13
(chuckling)  gee, doesn't THAT news perk me up!  :)
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: leroi on August 01, 2009, 12:00:30
A followup on Hassan Diab who, it appears, has been fired from Carleton University for his connection to terrorism:

Carleton Professors Call for Reinstatement of Colleague Accused of Bombing Paris Synagogue


The Ottawa Citizen (Reproduced in Accordance with the Fair Dealing Provision of the Copyright Act.)
August 1, 2009
Joanne Laucius

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/life/Carleton+professors+call+reinstatement+colleague+accused+bombing+Paris+synagogue/1850749/story.html


Sociology and anthropology professors are demanding that Carleton University reinstate accused terrorist and fellow lecturer Hassan Diab. “The senior administration has a chance to do the right thing. It’s never too late,” said Peter Gose, chairman of the department at the university.

The Lebanese-born Diab, who is now a Canadian citizen, is accused in France of killing four people and injuring dozens more in the 1980 bombing of a Paris synagogue. He faces an extradition hearing in January and is under virtual house arrest, but may leave to work. Diab was teaching a summer course this week when he learned he was terminated.

Gose said university president Roseann Runte had asked for a meeting with the department on Thursday afternoon, two days after Diab was fired. Of the 42 academics permanently employed in the department, 22 showed up for the meeting, including Diab’s common-law wife, Rania Tfaily. But Runte did not appear.

The professors then drafted the resolution, which said the university ignored its own procedures by terminating Diab, unanimously called for his reinstatement and supported Gose and John Osborne, the dean of the department of arts and social science, for assigning teaching duties to Diab.

“We have to say that our relationship is in bad shape,” said Gose. “The department is solidly behind the idea that he should not have been dismissed.” Gose said he also takes issue with the way the course Diab was teaching was assigned to another faculty member without consultation. “That’s not the way it’s supposed to be done. It’s supposed to be done by the department. It’s an area of the university we manage,” said Gose.

Diab must wear an electronic monitoring bracelet, report regularly to the RCMP and can’t own a cellphone. Under his bail conditions, Diab must live with Tfaily in her Ottawa home. He may leave for work and legal and medical appointments, but only if accompanied by Tfaily or one of the four other people who put up $250,000 in combined bail, including Gose. “The judge said he was not an immediate threat to anyone,” said Gose.

Hiring sessional lecturers is subject to elaborate seniority rules under the collective agreement, Gose said. Diab, who has taught about five previous courses in the department, was at the top of the list in terms of suitability and availability to work. Gose said hiring Diab was cleared by Osborne, as well as the associate director of human resources and Carleton’s provost and vice-president academic, Peter Ricketts.

The department’s reaction to the termination of Diab’s teaching contract is the latest chapter of an episode that began Monday when a court proceeding heard that Diab had been hired to teach during the summer. He was fired Tuesday in the wake of criticism, including a statement by the Jewish advocacy group B’nai Brith.

On Wednesday, the Canadian Association of University Teachers, which represents 65,000 academics across the country, said the university had bowed to pressure from outside the university. Gose said that when Runte called for a department meeting, professors were expecting an explanation of administration’s actions.

In a statement on Friday, Carleton spokeswoman Lin Moody said Runte’s meeting with the department was cancelled after the administration received a grievance from Diab’s union, CUPE 4600. “Because the decision is being grieved we will allow the grievance process to unfold as it should and won’t be making any further comments.”

Gose said that although it was not against the collective agreement for senior administration to fail to notify him and the dean about terminating a lecturer, the normal procedure would be to consult them.“We have to get back to the situation where we respect the collective agreement and the rule of law. And the presumption of innocence,” he said. “It’s not about anyone’s politics. It’s about procedure and it’s about respect.”

Gose said he believes administrators are being pressured by organized lobbyists. “They’re on the fifth floor of the Tory building being bombarded by e-mails and not talking to the professoriate or the students,” he said. “We have a large Muslim student population. There are more people to talk to beyond B’nai Brith. We’re a complex multicultural society.”

Gose sees this week’s events as a “continuity” of Israeli anti-apartheid week last February, when a poster depicting an Israeli helicopter bombing a Palestinian child holding a teddy bear was banned from campus, sparking debate about freedom of expression. Frank Dimant, executive vice-president of B’nai Brith Canada, cites the events of the last week at Carleton as indicative of the mood on Canadian campuses. Dimant said he is fighting an uphill battle against a coalition of neo-Nazis, left-wingers and academics.

“It’s appalling university professors would lobby for the reinstatement of a professor who is alleged to have bombed a synagogue. And one asks this question: is it because a synagogue was bombed?” he said. “Can a rational Canadian citizen agree with the notion that their child is taught by a man who is charged with terrorist crimes?”

He added that the B’nai Brith statement was released to the public domain and the organization did not contact the university to press its case. “We will get the Canadian people to be the lobby group that influences the university.”
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: BYT Driver on August 01, 2009, 12:15:54
One word: deportation.
Born elsewhere, emigrate to here, bash this country to your base beliefs, and not expect backlash?
I am a proud Canadian, born in the UK of Scottish and (I just found out) Irish ancestry.  As do most of us all.
I am proud to serve my country that took my family in (we immigrated in '69)
People like these make me sick as I wonder at what point to any of us go from being proud and patriotic to racists?  I guess that all depends on your point of view!   
I can guarantee, that if I had done anything terroristic (is that a word) in this country, my butt would be back in the UK!  But then again, I'm a white anglo-saxon protestest who speaks english. 



Sorry.  Too much?
I AM  :cdn:
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: leroi on August 01, 2009, 13:10:23
One word: deportation.
Born elsewhere, emigrate to here, bash this country to your base beliefs, and not expect backlash?
I am a proud Canadian, born in the UK of Scottish and (I just found out) Irish ancestry.  As do most of us all.
I am proud to serve my country that took my family in (we immigrated in '69)
People like these make me sick as I wonder at what point to any of us go from being proud and patriotic to racists?  I guess that all depends on your point of view!   
I can guarantee, that if I had done anything terroristic (is that a word) in this country, my butt would be back in the UK!  But then again, I'm a white anglo-saxon protestest who speaks english. 



Sorry.  Too much?
  Not at all.
I AM :cdn:  Me too! :nod:

I'm glad and surprised Carleton U is taking a stand. From what I've observed, universities are often too hesitant to take decisions that have political implications.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: E.R. Campbell on August 25, 2009, 12:56:14
This report, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from today’s Globe and Mail, says that the one convicted terrorist would rather not go to jail:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/toronto/terrorist-makes-plea-for-clemency/article1263637/
Quote
Terrorist makes plea for clemency

(https://Air-Force.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbeta.images.theglobeandmail.com%2Farchive%2F00192%2Fsaad_khalid_192461gm-a.jpg&hash=8c39137b429dac1f8c0af00fb27aea92)

“I am not a lunatic hell-bent on destruction” of the West, young man tells court today in Brampton, Ont.


Colin Freeze

Brampton, Ont. — Globe and Mail Update Last updated on Tuesday, Aug. 25, 2009 11:22AM EDT

A convicted Canadian terrorist made a plea for clemency in a Brampton, Ont., court today, urging a judge to forgive his “unspeakable” involvement in a plot to bomb government targets in downtown Toronto.

“Everyone makes mistakes ... The reason we fall down is so we can learn to get up again,” said Saad Khalid, now 22, reading a judge a statement he prepared for his sentencing hearing.

The young man added he wanted the court to know “I am not a lunatic hell-bent on destruction” of the West. “I never wanted to hurt anybody," he said, adding he was glad the plot was foiled in a police sting.

These are the first remarks by any of the accused bomb plotters, who were arrested three years ago, in terms of openly speaking about culpability and the true motivations behind the plot.

In May, Mr. Khalid became the first suspect to plead guilty to a bomb plot in the so-called 2006 “Toronto 18” conspiracy. The group was allegedly a tight-knit splinter cell from within a larger group of Muslim youth that ran and attended a makeshift winter training camp months earlier. Prosecutors say the motivating principle was armed jihad, as the radical young men understood it, and their hope was to force a withdrawal of Canadian troops from Afghanistan.

To that end a few ringleaders, who cannot be named by court order, allegedly sought to acquire U-haul trucks and tonnes of ammonium nitrate fertilizer to bomb the Toronto Stock Exchange, the Toronto headquarters of the Canadian Security Intelligence Service, and an unspecified military base.

Mr. Khalid was not privy to the specific details of the plot, but he was caught in a sting boxing fertilizer at the behest of the alleged mastermind.

“I'd like to start by first accepting responsibility for my role,” Mr. Khalid said. “I was not motivated by hate for Canada and Canadians.”

He did say he hated Canada's foreign policy, particularly NATO's participation in the Afghanistan conflict.

Mr. Khalid said he renounces violence and has a better understanding of Islam, but “I still have strong political views shared by other Muslim youth.”

He suggested he could counsel them toward more peaceful protest if freed. “I need a second chance and I do not think keeping me in jail would be good for society or me,” he said.

Sentencing arguments continue today ahead of a planned ruling next month. Mr. Khalid is the second member of the Toronto 18 to be found guilty, with a youth last year convicted of participating in the training camp.

Nine additional suspects have yet to face trial.

I hope he gets a stiff, exemplary, sentence. A lot of people dislike, even “hate” our foreign policy, many are vehemently opposed to our mission in Afghanistan – one of them (those opposed to the Afghan mission) is a friend of mine. Those people – almost all the ones who are opposed to Canada being in Afghanistan – did not decide to build bombs and kill Canadians. This guy, and his friends, did, and they should pay a high price for that bad decision.

Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Eye In The Sky on August 25, 2009, 13:03:28
Ref the last line of the above quote:

I disagree you little POS;  keeping you in jail is exactly what would be good for society.

As for what is good for you?  *yawn* I've no interest in that.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: FastEddy on August 25, 2009, 13:20:34
[quote
[/quote]

If anybody believes that crap, please contact me immediately, as I can get you a good deal on the Brooklyn Bridge or your own Ice Berg.

Throw the Book at him, make a example of him, that Canada has a "Zero" policy with any act or form of Terrorism.

Cheers.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Smity199 on August 25, 2009, 13:25:26
Make an example of him and send him to his beloved afghanistan, I as a tax payer would much prefer the cost of a one-way ticket rather than sending this punk to our prison system on our dime..
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Target Up on August 25, 2009, 13:27:32
Make an example of him and send him to his beloved afghanistan, I as a tax payer would much prefer the cost of a one-way ticket rather than sending this punk to our prison system on our dime..

So he can master his trade?  I'd rather see him in a deep dark hole right here in Canada, until he's too old and leathered to pick up a bag of fertilizer.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: FastEddy on August 25, 2009, 13:36:19
So he can master his trade?  I'd rather see him in a deep dark hole right here in Canada, until he's too old and leathered to pick up a bag of fertilizer.


Good point "Kat".

Cheers.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Smity199 on August 25, 2009, 16:20:14


Good point "Kat".

Cheers.

agreed, although corporal punishment would be ideal for cases like this.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: FlatTax on August 25, 2009, 16:43:34
I thought everyone knew that the cylons looked like humans!
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Smity199 on August 25, 2009, 17:46:46
Side note: why do they hold their heads back like that whenever a photo is being taken?
hes just asking for someone to kick him in the chin
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Fishbone Jones on August 25, 2009, 17:58:17
Why do we have to explain this everytime one of these threads shows up?

Hold and voice all the opinions you want, as long as they fall within the realm of what's legally accepted by our society and laws.

Keep the vigilante stuff to yourselves.

Milnet.ca Staff
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: ruckmarch on August 25, 2009, 19:03:08
I am a proud Canadian, born in the UK of Scottish and (I just found out) Irish ancestry.   But then again, I'm a white anglo-saxon protestest who speaks english. 


You are having a laugh mate, you call that Scottish chinwag English?  :rofl: Scottish and English don't mix, especially when it comes to football  ;D

Bet you think Alex Ferguson is speaking English in the link below?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTZ1v3hjH1M



Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Danjanou on August 25, 2009, 19:45:17
You are having a laugh mate, you call that Scottish chinwag English?  :rofl: Scottish and English don't mix, especially when it comes to football  ;D

Bet you think Alex Ferguson is speaking English in the link below?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTZ1v3hjH1M

Careful there ruckmarch. I'm from Scots Irish descent and could see your post as very derogatory and perhaps even racist crack delivered to my ethnic heritage. Very un PC.  8)
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: ruckmarch on August 25, 2009, 20:01:21
Careful there ruckmarch. I'm from Scots Irish descent and could see your post as very derogatory and perhaps even racist crack delivered to my ethnic heritage. Very un PC.  8)

I was born and raised in London UK, a lifelong Arsenal fan, hence the football jibe. Racist...? Mate please

BYT gets the joke  ;D
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Chris Pook on August 26, 2009, 07:49:02
I was born and raised in London UK, a lifelong Arsenal fan, hence the football jibe. Racist...? Mate please

BYT gets the joke  ;D

Bleedin' Arsenal.  You want to see tribal violence Danjanou?  Up the Hammers  ;D

Scots-English-Canadian with 5 years in Surrey and a suitably complex dialect.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Target Up on August 26, 2009, 12:45:00
Bleedin' Arsenal.  You want to see tribal violence Danjanou?  Up the Hammers  ;D

Scots-English-Canadian with 5 years in Surrey and a suitably complex dialect.

Nah, us Hammers save most of our bile for Millwall fans.  West Ham is the only club to ever win a world cup   ;D
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: ruckmarch on August 26, 2009, 13:48:22
Gordon Bennett....flippin Hammers fans  ::) They are always there to take our rejects, Ian Wright, Paul Merson, freddie Lunberg, Hartson...the list goes on and we still manage to beat them all the time.

How is life in the lower league these days? Had many a drink in the Upton Park pub after games, and then we take the fights onto Green Street  ;D

There is only one Arsenal  ;)
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Neo Cortex on August 26, 2009, 13:57:04
To get this thread off of ethnic diversity and hockey, and back on topic (remember we are in "International Situations & World News", not Radio Chatter):

While it might be considered unorthodox, have people convicted of being involved in crimes like these ever been used as consultants?

For instance, while several of the articles listed in these 4 pages are of foiled plots (i.e. plot to import nuclear technology into Iran), the Parisian bombing suspect probably has some useful information that might prevent an attack in the future (though admittedly his might be less useful as its nearly 20+ years old.)

Has Canada ever used their arrested suspects as sources of intelligence on their methods, as opposed to just as sources of information on the attack itself?
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: mariomike on August 26, 2009, 14:22:18
Has Canada ever used their arrested suspects as sources of intelligence on their methods, as opposed to just as sources of information on the attack itself?

I think Kurt Meyer and Albert Speer are two examples.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Danjanou on August 26, 2009, 17:57:57
I was born and raised in London UK, a lifelong Arsenal fan, hence the football jibe. Racist...? Mate please

BYT gets the joke  ;D

My aren't we a tad sensitive and defensive lad when someone questions your PCness on here.  8)

Anyway back to the topic at hand, mario I think you'd be stretching it a bit with Panzer Meyer there.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: E.R. Campbell on September 04, 2009, 09:05:18
Here, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from today’s Globe and Mail, is a report on the sentencing of Saad Khalid:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/toronto/toronto-18-member-handed-14-year-sentence/article1274654/
Quote
'Toronto 18' member handed 14-year sentence
Thursday's sentencing of confessed terrorist marks first time that any core member of the alleged 'Toronto 18' bomb conspiracy sent to prison
 
Colin Freeze

Brampton, Ont.
Thursday, Sep. 03, 2009

A terrorist bomb-plotter has received a 14-year sentence for his role in a scheme to blow up government targets in downtown Toronto.

Saad Khalid, 23, who pleaded guilty in the so-called Toronto 18 conspiracy, was credited with seven years for time in pretrial custody. He will spend a maximum of seven more years in prison. He can apply for parole in two years four months.

Thursday's ruling may bode ill for accused in the case who have yet to face trial. Mr. Justice Bruce Durno said that even taking into account many mitigating factors – Mr. Khalid's youth, sincere regret, guilty plea and non-central role – Canadian courts have an obligation to punish terrorism harshly.

“ To be even a bit player in a serious and significant plan is a serious and significant infraction ”— Russell Silverstein, Saad Khalid's lawyer

“Canadian society relies on ballots and not bullets or bombs to change policy,” Judge Durno said in a 48-page decision he read aloud in court.

“ … Terrorist offences are the most vile form of criminal conduct.”

Mr. Khalid was close shaven Thursday and wore a black blazer, a tie and jeans to the courtroom, which was packed with his family, journalists, counterterrorism operatives, government lawyers and at least one police agent.

The young man buried his head in his hands after hearing his sentence, but his lawyer later said his client was actually pleased.

“He's perfectly happy,” Russell Silverstein said outside court. “ ... It could have been a lot worse.”

“To be even a bit player in a serious and significant plan is a serious and significant infraction,” he added.

Statement of facts in Khalid case (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/uncontested-statement-of-facts-in-khalid-case/article1275256/)

The Crown's blow-by-blow of the Toronto 18 plot, laid out in a statement of uncontested facts filed this summer in the case of R. v. Saad Khalid, solely for the purpose of his trial

On June 2, 2006, Mr. Khalid was caught in a police sting. Hundreds of police swept across Toronto to round up more than a dozen Muslim youth. Mr. Khalid was caught unloading boxes marked “ammonium nitrate” from the back of a truck.

He admitted he knew the fertilizer was intended to be used to construct truck bombs to be detonated in the downtown core. He pleaded guilty in May.

The Crown alleges that only two suspects were privy to the full details of the bomb plot, and that their targets were the Toronto Stock Exchange, the Toronto headquarters of the Canadian Security Intelligence Service and an unspecified military base along Highway 401.

“Saad Khalid was not the prime mover in the plot,” Judge Durno said, describing the young man as an accomplice kept ignorant of the fine points. Even so, the accused “knew serious bodily harm or death were likely” and “was not just a gopher” who unloaded fertilizer.

Mr. Khalid not only knew the gist of a overarching bomb plot but also bought electrical equipment, rented storage units, and even recruited an accomplice.

“I acknowledge that I made a huge mistake, and not a day passes by that I am not filled with regret for my role in this despicable crime,” Mr. Khalid told the court during a sentencing hearing last week.

He described himself as university student from a good home, but said he fell in with more radical Muslims because of a “disagreement on the issue of Canadian foreign policy, specifically Canada's involvement in Afghanistan.”

Mr. Khalid's Pakistani family raised him in Saudi Arabia, then moved Canada. The death of Mr. Khalid's mother when he was 15 left him “vulnerable” to terrorist recruiters, the judge said. He was a teenager at the time of his arrest.

Mr. Khalid spent three years in jail, some of it in segregation, before deciding to plead guilty.

Judge Durno accepted Mr. Khalid's remorse, but only to a point.

He agreed the young man had truly changed in prison, and that he likely would pose no threat to society upon release.

Still, terrorist crimes need to be punished severely as “they attack the very fabric of Canada's democratic ideals,” Judge Durno ruled.

Only a handful of cases have been prosecuted under Canada's Anti-Terrorism Act, a controversial piece of legislation passed by Parliament in response to the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks in the United States.

One of Mr. Khalid's co-accused, a teenager who was a peripheral member of the group, has already been found guilty of participating in a terrorist group through attending a training camp.

Charges against six of the original Toronto 18 suspects were stayed. Cases involving Mr. Khalid's nine co-accused are expected to start by the beginning of next year.

Publication bans shield the identities of the co-accused.

A 37-page statement of the Crown's case, uncontested by Mr. Khalid, is posted on globeandmail.com in an edited form to conform with the publication ban.

The document describes how the bomb-plot suspects were followed, wiretapped and infiltrated by police agents before the 2006 roundup. The document “provides a chilling and terrifying glimpse of what was likely to occur,” Judge Durno ruled.

 Two down ...
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: E.R. Campbell on September 22, 2009, 13:18:13
Here, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions(§29) of the Copyright Act from today’s Globe and Mail, is some good news:


http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/another-toronto-18-suspect-pleads-guilty/article1296714/
Quote
Another 'Toronto 18' suspect pleads guilty
Man enters guilty plea to one count of participating in a terrorist group; was considered peripheral player in plot that targeted Ont. Landmarks
 
COLIN FREEZE

Tuesday, Sep. 22, 2009

Another suspect in Canada's so-called "Toronto 18" terrorism case has pleaded guilty to a terrorism charge.

Ali Dirie pleaded guilty yesterday to one count of participating in a terrorist group.

He was considered a peripheral player in a plot that targeted southern Ontario landmarks, a case of homegrown terrorism in Canada that led to 18 arrests and, now, three convictions.

Now in his mid-20s, Mr. Dirie had been arrested and convicted of a gunrunning charge before the training camp and bomb plot in which other suspects are accused of participating in. He still faces a charge involving smuggling a handgun across the Canada-U.S. border.

Submissions for his sentencing will be made tomorrow, and Mr. Dirie will be sentenced on Friday, Oct. 2. Crown prosecutor Clyde Bond declined to say what prison term he'd seek.

Mr. Dirie is the second adult to plead guilty in as many months in the Toronto terrorism conspiracy that sparked the high-profile arrests of young extremists across the city in 2006.

After a surprise guilty plea last month, confessed bomb-plotter Saad Khalid was sentenced early this month to 14 years in prison after admitting he was part of a scheme to explode truck bombs in downtown Toronto. Mr. Khalid was caught unloading boxes marked "ammonium nitrate" from the back of a truck.

In handing down a stern ruling - despite mitigating factors such as Mr. Khalid's age, remorse and tangential role - Mr. Justice Bruce Durno said this month that Canadian courts have an obligation to punish terrorism harshly.

"Canadian society relies on ballots and not bullets or bombs to change policy," he wrote in the 48-page decision read aloud in court on Sept. 3. " ... Terrorist offences are the most vile form of criminal conduct."

In what was considered the first successful conviction on Canada's 2001 anti-terrorism laws, a youth was found guilty a year ago of attending a makeshift terrorism training camp north of Toronto.

After the arrest of 18 people in June, 2006, the case had been dubbed the "Toronto 18" conspiracy.

Seven suspects were let go on peace bonds. Eight adults arrested in the case will face trial in the new year. A publication ban is still in effect in the case of Mr. Dirie, preventing the publication of details that could identify the other accused.

Two down!

Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: E.R. Campbell on September 22, 2009, 13:26:20
And some not so good news, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from today’s Ottawa Citizen:

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/Judge+dramatically+eases+restrictions+Harkat/2016155/story.html
Quote
Judge dramatically eases restrictions on Harkat
Ottawa terror suspect jubilant, vows to clear name
 
By Chris Cobb, The Ottawa Citizen

September 21, 2009

OTTAWA-Tears of joy and relief poured down Mohamed Harkat’s cheeks Monday as he heard a Federal Court judge lift the strictest of bail conditions the accused terrorist has been living under since being released from jail three years ago.

“It’s impossible to overestimate what a significant change this will have on his life,” said Harkat’s lawyer Norm Boxall. “It gives them freedom where previously they had none. He couldn’t go into his backyard without being supervised. You can’t imagine what it’s like to live for years under these kind of restraints and suddenly to be freed from them.”

The decision, and extent of the government concessions, clearly surprised Harkat, his wife Sophie and the family’s supporters, who packed the courtroom to hear what was expected to be a comparatively routine application by Harkat’s lawyers for an easing of the bail order.

But government lawyers pre-empted the hearing with the shock announcement to Federal Court Justice Simon Noël that they would not object to the lifting of 24-hour surveillance outside the Harkat home by Canada Border Services agents and nor would they object to the Algerian-born Harkat travelling alone within the borders of the capital region.

It appears to be a significant retreat by the government in a case conducted largely in secret.

Prior to Monday’s decision, the former pizza deliveryman had a strict curfew and was not allowed to leave his house unaccompanied. His phone was tapped and he was not allowed to read his own mail without it first being vetted by security agents.

Surveillance cameras inside and outside the Harkat house also monitored his movements.

A beaming Harkat left the Supreme Court building, where the Federal Court is housed, to the rousing cheers and applause of his family and friends and emerged into the bright late morning sunshine to say that the ruling came as a huge relief.

“I feel good,” he said. “This will affect all things. I am always worried about accidentally breaking conditions. There were too many conditions to remember. It was hard to think normal. It was like being on another planet.

“I still don’t know why I was arrested,” he added. “I want to clear my name. That’s what we’re fighting for.”

Under Monday’s ruling, Harkat must continue to live with a GPS security ankle bracelet and continues to be barred from using a computer or a cellphone or a landline phone at any location other than his own home.

He had previously been barred from using any type of telephone.

The Canadian Security Intelligence Service (CSIS) contends that 42-year-old Harkat is an al-Qaeda sleeper agent. The federal government is using the secretive security certificate process in an effort to deport him to his native Algeria.

Harkat came to Canada and applied for refugee status in 1995 after five years living in Pakistan, where he said he worked as a warehouse manager for the Muslim World League.

CSIS alleges that he travelled to Afghanistan in the early 1990s and developed a relationship with al-Qaeda lieutenant Abu Zubaydah, who ran two terrorist camps.

Harkat denies all the allegations and the government has used federal security legislation to keep secret whatever evidence it has.

Defence lawyer Boxall said Monday that he didn’t know why the government had changed its position on the bail restrictions but speculated it might be rooted in a revelation that a key CSIS source in the case had failed a lie-detector test.

A top-secret letter made public June 5 showed that CSIS had left Judge Noël with a distorted impression of the informant’s reliability and in a separate letter to the court senior CSIS legal counsel Michael Duffy said the agency’s lack of total honesty was “inexcusable” and “of profound concern to the service.

“It belies the commitment of the service and its employees to the judicial process,” wrote Duffy.

The government won’t say why it has changed its position but Boxall said he assumes CSIS has conducted a new risk assessment on Harkat.

“They have come to the conclusion that Mr. Harkat is not the risk that they thought,” said Boxall, “which is what we’ve always believed. This might suggest that their case is getting weaker but we don’t know.”

While a radical change for the better, the remaining conditions should also be lifted, added Boxall, because they still make it almost impossible for Harkat to find employment.

The battery-operated GPS system on Harkat’s right ankle needs charging for two hours a day and requires him to lie motionless during the recharging process.

“I bet every one of you has a cellphone,” said Boxall during an impromptu news conference. “They are everyday tools. Cells and computers are pretty much part of any employment in 2009. He hasn’t seen a computer screen since 2002.”

Harkat spent 31⁄2 years in jail after being arrested in December 2002. He was released almost three years ago after agreeing to 18 bail conditions that amounted to ultra-strict house arrest.

Those conditions allowed the government to raid Harkat’s house without warning, which is what 13 of its security agents, along with Ottawa police officers and sniffer dogs, did last May.

The controversial six-hour raid came three weeks before a rare public hearing in the case to determine whether the government’s security certificate against Harkat was reasonable.

That hearing is delayed until January next year because of the raid and because of concerns around CSIS’s handling of the case.

The agents took dozens of boxes of items from the house and seized Sophie’s computer, which was kept in the basement, an area Harkat is barred from entering.

The raid and its timing clearly irritated Noël, who amended Harkat’s bail conditions requiring government agents to get the equivalent of a search warrant prior to any other raid.

Harkat said he is looking forward to his new freedom.

He said his first act, as a relatively free man, would be to honour a promise to his 10-year-old niece Gabrielle Brunette and take her to dinner.

Asked where she wanted her uncle to take her, Gabrielle said she didn’t really care.

“We can go to Home Depot if he wants,” she said, threading her arm through Harkat’s.

Harkat’s wife, prime surety and former court-ordered chaperone Sophie, was more emphatic.

“I’m alone tonight,” she laughed, “I’m going to go party.”

© Copyright (c) The Ottawa Citizen


It appears, to me, that CSIS continues to believes that Harkat is a still a threat but the requirements of national security and the requirements of justice and the law cannot be reconciled. So, I assume he will be kept under more distant surveillance  - until, I guess he makes a mistake and compromises himself or CSIS concludes that he is too far “out of contact” to remain as a threat.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Greymatters on September 23, 2009, 14:41:34
For instance, while several of the articles listed in these 4 pages are of foiled plots (i.e. plot to import nuclear technology into Iran), the Parisian bombing suspect probably has some useful information that might prevent an attack in the future (though admittedly his might be less useful as its nearly 20+ years old.) Has Canada ever used their arrested suspects as sources of intelligence on their methods, as opposed to just as sources of information on the attack itself?

One of those questions that is unlikely to be answered here...
 
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: E.R. Campbell on September 24, 2009, 14:27:34
Here, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from today’s Globe and Mail, is a report on another case where the security restrictions on another suspected security risk are removed because, ”court orders for greater and greater disclosure jeopardized the spy agency's sources and methods. So, nearly all of the wiretaps and most of the human sources against Mr. Charkaoui were pulled from the case:”

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/judge-lifts-charkaoui-restrictions/article1299943/
Quote
Judge lifts Charkaoui restrictions

(https://Air-Force.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbeta.images.theglobeandmail.com%2Farchive%2F00245%2FCharkaoui1500_245683gm-a.jpg&hash=e8af7310cff67040713ec3e3a0b17a55)

In midst of legal arguments over the end of a security certificate on Charkaoui, the judge makes the sudden ruling from the bench

Les Perreaux and Colin Freeze

Montreal, Toronto
Thursday, Sep. 24, 2009

Adil Charkaoui, a Moroccan held on a controversial “security certificate” for the past six years, will be a free man by the end of the day.

Federal Court Judge Danièle Tremblay-Lamer said she will issue an order by the end of the day lifting all conditions on the alleged terrorist.

In the midst of legal arguments over the end of a security certificate on Mr. Charkaoui, the judge made the sudden ruling from the bench just before lunch.

“There will be an order all conditions be revoked immediately,” the judge said.

Mr. Charkaoui's lawyer had just blasted the government for “legal acrobatics” trying to drop the case while leaving room for an appeal and keeping conditions on Mr. Charkaoui for the short term.

“It's almost willful blindness, not to see the harm being done. It's abuse, government abuse, it's not something that should be sanctioned by the court,” said his lawyer, Johanne Doyon.

The conditions on Mr. Charkaoui included electronic monitoring, bail and an order he not associate with certain people. He had been jailed from 2003 until 2005 after federal officials branded him an al-Qaeda threat, but was gradually granted increasingly liberty as the case stalled.

The Crown is asking the judge to leave an opening for an appeal later.

The unusual legal gambit followed the Canadian Security Intelligence Service's decision to pull evidence from its case. CSIS, Canada's spy agency, initiates security certificate cases by making recommendations to federal officials.

The security-certificate law allows for CSIS to keep the evidence secret, and present it to judges and ministers in secret hearings. However, several high court judges have ordered greater transparency in recent years – often following legal challenges from Mr. Charkaoui himself.

Crown lawyers argued that while the CSIS case against Mr. Charkaoui remains fundamentally solid, court orders for greater and greater disclosure jeopardized the spy agency's sources and methods. So, nearly all of the wiretaps and most of the human sources against Mr. Charkaoui were pulled from the case.

“The disclosure of this information would be injurious to national security, and compromise the ability to effectively investigate security threats to Canadians,” CSIS spokeswoman Manon Berube said in an e-mailed statement to The Globe. “Among the most important elements of security intelligence collection is human sources. It is imperative that CSIS protect its sources, and guarantee their anonymity.”

Today's developments are another nail in the coffin of security certificates, a controversial tool that Ottawa has relied upon since the Cold War, to kick out foreign spies and alleged terrorists.

This position follows several embarrassing court-ordered revelations, including that CSIS has buried information from dubious sources and repeated evidence from U.S. allies who subjected al-Qaeda suspects to the harsh interrogations.

The security-certificate tool has been used about once a year since it was put on the books in the early 1990s, but no new cases have been launched in three years.

During the past two decades, the law has been used less than 30 times.

Once seen as an efficient means of deporting non-citizens who were branded threats, the future of security certificates are in doubt. It's proven increasingly difficult for Ottawa to deport such suspects given increasing constitutional challenges and the likelihood of foreign torture.

Through the power, federal ministers sign off on a certificate after viewing secret CSIS information, which allows officials to immediately jail, and eventually deport, a non-citizen.

The “intelligence” used to do this is disclosed to judges but never fully revealed to the accused, drawn as it usually is from secret agents and wiretaps, sometimes placed within Canada but also frequently “loaned” from foreign governments on condition that the provenance be kept secret.

As more and more CSIS agents are grudgingly compelled into court, they are digging in their heels against revealing secrets – not just in the handful of active security-certificate cases, but also in trials for terrorism suspects facing jail or extradition Security certificates have long shown diminishing returns for the government, to the point that some officials now talk about the power in the past tense. The five active security certificate cases are legacies of mid-1990s intelligence investigations involving immigrants from the Middle East and North Africa.

Tens of millions dollars annually and dozens of federal officials are consumed by these cases, through constant litigation, ongoing monitoring of detainees, and a special prison built in 2005 that has only one detainee.


Counter-intelligence needs to be done in the shadows; law enforcement needs to finisgh in court.

Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: E.R. Campbell on September 24, 2009, 14:36:50
Just in case people think CSIS has no basis to suspect people, this article, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from today’s Globe and Mail, tells us that one of the accused Toronto 18 ”admitted Wednesday to procuring weapons, arranging false travel documents and trying to recruit extremists for a domestic terrorist group that planned bloody attacks on Canadian targets:”

Quote
Accused in terror plot purchased weapons and recruited others, court told
In lengthy agreed statement of facts, Crown tells court how Ali Dirie, who pleaded guilty Monday, was close to the alleged co-leader of the so-called Toronto 18
 
BRAMPTON, Ont. — The Canadian Press

Wednesday, Sep. 23, 2009 03:25PM EDT

A Toronto man admitted Wednesday to procuring weapons, arranging false travel documents and trying to recruit extremists for a domestic terrorist group that planned bloody attacks on Canadian targets.

In a lengthy agreed statement of facts, the Crown told court how Ali Dirie, who pleaded guilty Monday, was close to the alleged co-leader of the so-called Toronto 18 and continued his role in the conspiracy even while incarcerated.

Mr. Dirie knew the group followed an “extremist interpretation of Islam” and intended to commit terrorist acts, Crown lawyer Clyde Bond told Ontario Superior Court.

Those acts were for a religious purpose and meant to “intimidate the public,” Mr. Bond said.

Justice Bruce Durno convicted Mr. Dirie, 26, of one count of taking part in and helping a terrorist group. That makes Mr. Dirie the third person now convicted in the plot to bomb Canadian targets such as RCMP headquarters and nuclear facilities, attack Parliament and take hostages.

The Crown stayed a second charge of committing an offence for the group – dubbed the Toronto 18 because of the number of people arrested in the summer of 2006 in the anti-terrorism sweep.

Mr. Dirie faces a maximum of 10 years, with Crown and defence indicating to Justice Durno they would jointly recommend a sentence.

The only issue, Mr. Bond said, was how much credit Mr. Dirie would get for the time he has already spent behind bars.

Dressed in a grey hoodie, jeans and head-cap, Mr. Dirie listened quietly to the 28-page account of the evidence against him, rising only to say softly, “Yes, I do,” when asked if he accepted the agreed statement of facts.

Court heard how Mr. Dirie had been jailed after being caught with loaded weapons at the Canada-U.S. border as he and another man returned from the United States in August 2005.

Much of the terror-group evidence against Mr. Dirie was based on wiretaps of telephone conversations he had with the alleged co-leader of the conspiracy, who cannot be named under a publication ban.

Even after his incarceration, Mr. Dirie still considered himself an active member of the group and devoted to the jihadist cause, court heard.

He continued trying to get guns for himself and others, tried to get false travel documents for himself and other group members, and tried to indoctrinate fellow inmates at Ontario's Collins Bay penitentiary to the extremist cause.

Court heard how the co-leader attempted to send him a package of books and CDs containing violent videos of attacks and bombings on military personnel and other jihadist propaganda.

“Dirie was recruiting people . . . to join the jihadist group,” Mr. Bond told court.

He also encouraged and advised the co-leader in a series of phone calls.

During the calls, Mr. Dirie actually bragged about the pleasant conditions in jail – including his access to a basketball court, showers and work.

“This place is luxury, man,” he said during one call, court heard.

He also decried moderate Muslims and professed his readiness to “take orders” along with his commitment to the extremist cause.

The two men chatted about “pure girls,” wives, and women – which court heard are all code for guns.

Mr. Dirie was serving a two-year sentence for the weapons offences at the time two camps were held that police said were in preparation for the attacks. The car he and the other man were in when stopped at the border had been rented using a credit card belonging to the co-leader, court heard.

Earlier this month, 23-year-old Saad Khalid was handed a 14-year prison sentence for his part in the plot after pleading guilty in May. Nishanthan Yogakrishnan, 21, was found guilty by a judge and convicted last September of participating in, and contributing to, a terrorist group.

In the summer of 2006, an intense investigation involving Canada's spy agency and the RCMP ended with the arrests of 18 people in the Toronto area and the seizure of apparent bomb-making materials.

Eight men, including the alleged leaders of the group, are in custody awaiting trial.

Seven of the 18 people arrested have since had their charges dropped or stayed.


Three down!

The threat, of attacks - right here in Canada, by home grown terrorists, is real.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: E.R. Campbell on September 25, 2009, 06:44:34
Here, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from today’s Globe and Mail, is a report suggesting that the Security Certificates, which are one of the primary tools available for restricting dangerous people, may be on the way out:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/are-security-certificates-obsolete/article1300775/
Quote
Are security certificates obsolete?
Frowned upon by the courts, never taken out the drawer these days by crown attorneys, special tool appears headed for obscurity

Colin Freeze

Friday, Sep. 25, 2009

Civil-liberties victories in the courts for people jailed under Ottawa's controversial security-certificate legislation have eroded the federal government's ability to jail and deport foreigners deemed dangerous.

The flip side of the victories for defendants in the security-certificate cases, officials suggest, is that the government is left with fewer and fewer options to remove legitimately dangerous foreigners once they set foot inside Canada's borders.

No new security-certificate cases have been launched in three years.

Thursday, Adil Charkaoui left court a free man for the first time in six years after a judge lifted the last of his bail conditions. Ottawa branded Mr. Charkaoui a terrorism suspect in 2003, the last federal attempt to bring a “security-certificate” case against an individual suspected of links to al-Qaeda.

A couple of years ago, a vexed Canadian spy official neatly framed security officials' frustration in an internal e-mail: What if Osama bin Laden himself materialized in Canada, sitting astride a camel and toting an AK-47?

The Canadian Security Intelligence Service executive told his colleagues that only one policy response from Ottawa could be guaranteed: No one would dare sign another “security certificate.”

The quip amounted to an elegy for an extraordinary power that's grown so cumbersome to use it verges on obsolete – even if it was designed as an expedient way to deport foreigners on the grounds of “reasonable suspicion” that they were national security threats without having to reveal why.

The tool has existed since the Cold War, a time when foreigners in Canada didn't have anywhere near as many rights as citizens. Intelligence officials could bring secret dossiers to politicians that laid out why individuals had to be ousted for the greater good.

All that was needed to make it so were the signatures of a couple of cabinet ministers.

“I certainly signed a couple when I was minister,” said Ron Atkey, who handled immigration in the 1979 Joe Clark Progressive Conservative government.

Ottawa was far less “gun-shy” about cases then, he said. “They were all in camera . And the public didn't really have a right to know,” Mr. Atkey said. “You did it with great fear and trepidation,” he added, “but you did it.”

During the 1980s, the Charter of Rights and Freedoms was enshrined, and higher courts ruled in favour of ever greater transparency and legal protections. Foreigners were invested with increasing rights.

“We never used it,” Reid Morden, a CSIS director in the late 1980s, said in reference to his time at the security agency. He said he saw security certificates as cumbersome and bad fit for the Cold-War espionage threat that was paramount at the time.

But he didn't mind having the “blunt instrument” handy. “It's always good to have it in the arsenal,” Mr. Morden said. “In the suite of powers, I think it's a useful tool.”

As the al-Qaeda threat mounted in the 1990s, security certificates returned to vogue. Even if the secret deportation dossiers grew a lot thicker, and the court battles that resulted became more public and protracted.

The essential unease among cabinet ministers with approving banishment remained.

Wayne Easter, a Liberal MP who served as solicitor-general from 2002 to 2003, recalls that he once spent three hours poring over a binder of Top Secret information before deciding to approve a certificate.

While he said he wouldn't reverse any past decisions, Mr. Easter said he'd like to see a system that better weighs security against civil liberties. “There needs to be better balance,” he said.

Ottawa is struggling to find one. The outcome of the Charkaoui case is seen as a watershed.

“Our objective is to ensure Canadians are safe from terrorist threats,” Public Safety Minister Peter Van Loan said in a statement circulated by his office. “We are examining the impact of the decision on that objective.”


The Charter has expanded the protection from the actions of the crown/government that every person in Canada enjoys. As a classical liberal I applaud everything that protects individuals from collectives. But not every individual, regardless of status. I disagree that e.g. illegal immigrants should be allowed to stay here and appeal, endlessly and I disagree that non-citizens should enjoy full civil rights.

I believe that bad intent, breaking the law, etc deprives one of the full protection afforded by the Charter; I also believe that full protection ought to be one of the benefits of full Canadian citizenship. Lawfully landed immigrants and visitors ought to have access to some, even most of the Charter’s protections, illegal immigrants and improperly documented visitors (e.g. refugee applicants) out to have only their fundamental human rights protected.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: E.R. Campbell on September 28, 2009, 15:08:47
Three down! according to this report, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from today’s Globe and Mail web site:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/toronto/another-suspect-in-so-called-toronto-18-pleads-guilty/article1304156/
Quote
Another suspect in so-called ‘Toronto 18' pleads guilty
Turn of events marks third such plea in recent weeks ahead of this winter's highly anticipated trial

COLIN FREEZE

BRAMPTON, ONT.
Monday, Sep. 28, 2009

Another suspect in the so-called ‘Toronto 18' conspiracy has pleaded guilty in a scheme to blow up government targets in downtown Toronto.

It is the third such plea in recent weeks ahead of this winter's much anticipated trial, as lawyers seek to sort out the main accused from the peripheral players.

Saad Gaya, a 21-year old, admitted Monday that he was part of an al-Qaeda-inspired plot to build fertilizer-based truck bombs and explode them in downtown Toronto.

Specifically, Mr. Gaya pleaded guilty to being part of a conspiracy to be part of a terrorist offence. He was arrested unloading boxes marked “ammonium nitrate” from the back of a truck in June 2006, as hundreds of police swept across the Toronto area to round up a group of young extremists.

The shipment of three tonnes of fertilizer three years ago was actually an RCMP sting operation, led by one of two police agents who infiltrated the group. (A distinct agent had infiltrated a makeshift training camp months prior to the bomb-conspiracy sting.) A year and a half ago, Mr. Gaya emerged as a cause celebre around the time of one of his bail hearings. He was portrayed at sympathetic rallies, on activist Web sites and in the some press coverage as a Muslim youth who had been arrested on trumped up charges.

But on Monday Mr. Gaya admitted his role was analogous to that of his friend and co-accused Saad Khalid, who was arrested at the same warehouse and caught unloading the same bags of fertilizer from the back of a truck.

Mr. Khalid was sentenced to 14 years earlier this month after pleading guilty to his role in the scheme. However, for a variety of factors inherent to Canada's correctional system, it's anticipated he'll spend only two to three more years in jail.

In pleading out last month, Mr. Khalid said he was a bomb-plot helper, not a mastermind, and that he wasn't privy to specific details of the scheme – including the locations of the alleged targets, the Canadian Security Intelligence Service offices in downtown Toronto, the nearby Toronto Stock Exchange and an unspecified Canadian Forces base along Highway 401.

Mr. Khalid did, however, say he wanted to blow up targets in downtown Toronto, describing himself as a misguided Muslim who wanted to force Canadian Forces soldiers from the NATO-led mission in Afghanistan.

In pleading out today, Mr. Gaya may be seeking a similar sentence to Mr. Khalid, who has already completed most of his jail time.

Mr. Gaya wore a dark suit, beard and glasses as he pleaded guilty in a soft-spoken voice. The gallery was packed with his family, who had championed his innocence for years, but who had nothing to say after the hearing.

Outside court, Mr. Gaya's lawyer, Paul Slansky said his client will likely get less than 14 years given he was arguably less culpable than his friend, Mr. Khalid.

“To some extent, he was duped,” said Mr. Slansky, explaining Mr. Gaya was not privy to the mechanics of the bomb plot. He added his client “asked for assurances there would not be harm to people” from ringleaders.

Other potential mitigating factors, the lawyer said, include that Mr. Gaya expressed remorse to police in a lengthy videotaped interview after he was caught.

Mr. Slansky also pointed out his client “served over three years in custody and one of them was in isolation” – factors which should eat up most of his penitentiary term.

Sentencing arguments are scheduled for late December with a verdict on January 6.

At the front end of a sentence, Canadian courts generally credit prisoners two-for-one for the time they spent in pretrial custody.

Toward the end of a sentence, the federal correctional system obliges that nearly all prisoners be released at two thirds of their sentence.

All things told, Canada's correctional laws mean that many, if not most, of the remaining accused in the Toronto 18 conspiracy have already done most of their time should they be found guilty.

A flurry of defence bids to get the conspiracy charges tossed on technical grounds have failed. But the three-and-a-half years spent in arguments delayed bringing matters to trial, meaning that most accused will see a sizable reduction in their penitentiary terms, if convicted.

The pretrial custody credits mean that most of the accused will be understood to have served at least the equivalent of seven year sentence by the time matters come to trial this winter.

Only a handful of accused – particularly those accused of being the bombing masterminds – face life imprisonment. The rest face lesser charges, along the lines of participating in a terrorist scheme or being part of a terrorist group.

Seven accused in the Toronto 18 conspiracy had their charges stayed or were released on peace bonds. A youth peripheral to the scheme was found guilty and sentenced to time served last year.

A suspect who smuggled a handgun across the Canada-U.S. border for the group, Ali Dirie, is to be sentenced on Friday. He was already jailed when the core conspiracies were hatched.

With Mr. Gaya, Mr. Khalid, and Mr. Dirie having pleaded guilty in recent weeks, only seven adult accused are headed to trial at this point. More pleas are possible.

A publication ban prohibits identifying the co-accused.

Jury selection is anticipated to start in December.


At the time of the arrests there were suggestions that this was just a bunch of kids with a childish, fantasy scheme. The evidence emerging suggests this was a real threat. That being the case we can, must assume that there are more out there – more Canadian Muslims plotting against their country and plotting to kill their fellow citizens at the behest of foreign “powers.”

Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: George Wallace on September 28, 2009, 21:39:57
Reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act.


Another 'Toronto 18' member pleads guilty (http://news.sympatico.ctv.ca/abc/home/contentposting.aspx?isfa=1&feedname=CTV-TOPSTORIES_V3&showbyline=True&date=true&newsitemid=CTVNews%2f20090928%2ftor18_gaya_090928)

LINK (http://news.sympatico.ctv.ca/abc/home/contentposting.aspx?isfa=1&feedname=CTV-TOPSTORIES_V3&showbyline=True&date=true&newsitemid=CTVNews%2f20090928%2ftor18_gaya_090928)
28/09/2009 6:34:46 PM

ctvtoronto.ca
A third member of the terror cell known as the Toronto 18 has pleaded guilty in a plot to hit Canadian targets.


Saad Gaya appeared in a Brampton, Ont. courtroom Monday where he admitted to intending to cause an explosion on behalf of a terrorist organization.

Gaya, 21, was one of 18 people arrested in the summer of 2006 and charged in plot to attack several national targets, including Parliament and RCMP headquarters. The 2006 roundup, known as Project Osage, included the seizure of apparent bomb-making materials.

Outside the courts, Gaya's lawyer Paul Slansky said his client pleaded guilty because it was the right thing to do.

But Slansky added Gaya truly believed there was no plan to hurt anyone and had been "duped" by other members in the group. "Certain people had certain plans that were not communicated to Mr. Gaya and Mr. Gaya will be taking the position that he did not know their plans, he said. "He in fact had asked for assurances that there would not be harm to people."

The Crown and defence filed an agreed statement of fact as an exhibit. It will be read into the court record during Gaya's sentencing hearing. Arguments will take place from Dec. 21 to 23. The actual sentence will be announced on Jan. 6.

Gaya has been in custody pending trial since his arrest on June 2, 2006.

Last week, another member of the Toronto 18, 26-year-old Ali Dirie, pleaded guilty to similar charges and was sentenced to a maximum of 10 years in prison.

Dirie admitted to procuring weapons, arranging false travel documents and trying to recruit extremists for a domestic terrorist.

Earlier this month, Saad Khalid, 23, was given a 14-year sentence after he pleaded guilty for his role in the plot.

So far, only one accused in the Toronto 18 terror case has gone to trial. That case resulted in a conviction.

Last September, Nishanthan Yogakrishnan, 21, was found guilty of participating in, and contributing to, a terrorist group.

Although he was 17 years old at the time of the crimes and was tried as a youth, Yogakrishnan received an adult sentence of 2 ½ years. He was released in May after being credited for time served before trail.

Seven others accused members of the Toronto 18, including the alleged ringleaders, remain in custody and are awaiting trial.

Seven of the 18 men and youths arrested have since had their charges dropped or stayed.

With a report from CTV Toronto's Austin Delaney and files from The Canadian Press


Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: E.R. Campbell on October 01, 2009, 09:45:25
Here, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from today’s Globe and Mail, is more on the problems confronting our national security team:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/five-terror-suspects-60-million/article1307821/
Quote
Five terror suspects: $60-million
Ottawa's controversial security-certificate program to rid Canada of alleged spies came with a multimillion-dollar price tag
 
Colin Freeze

Thursday, Oct. 01, 2009

Ottawa has spent $60-million over the past two years in its failed attempts to deport a handful of immigrants accused of having ties with al-Qaeda, The Globe and Mail has learned.

According to sources, the money has been used to fund legal cases involving five men detained under security certificates – a long-standing program that Ottawa has used in the hopes of ridding the country of suspected terrorists.

Security-certificate cases have become paralyzed in the courts and polarizing for the public, and are on the verge of becoming obsolete. On Wednesday, a Federal Court judge formally quashed the case against Adil Charkaoui, the Montreal-based Moroccan being detained on a security certificate, after lawyers representing the Canadian Security Intelligence Service said the spy agency could not abide court-ordered disclosures of its secrets. Mr. Charkaoui is contemplating a multimillion-dollar lawsuit for the six years he spent under a federal detention and surveillance regime.

While public discussion of security certificates has long centred on legal principles, budgetary officials are now conducting a review to determine whether taxpayers are getting value for the money spent on litigation.

“The Treasury Board Secretariat has required that a comprehensive evaluation be conducted for the Security Certificate Initiative in 2009-2010, in its second year of funding,” reads a Justice Canada letter soliciting feedback from legal insiders this past summer. “The evaluation will focus on assessing the continued relevance and performance of the Security Certificate Initiative which includes the Special Advocates Program.”

The multimillion-dollar legal bill is being spent on both prosecution and defence, and it is not uncommon for as many as six lawyers on each side to square off in security-certificate cases.

It's these costs that are being put under a microscope as part of Ottawa's continuing “strategic reviews,” which are examining a host of federal programs. The Treasury Board is trying to assess the security-certificate program through “interviews, surveys and a review of documents and performance data.”

While the Justice Canada letters circulated to insiders don't affix a price to the program, some who were contacted by the Treasury Board say they were told it was pegged at $60-million over two years.

Value for money becomes a question given how ineffective security certificates have become. The federal government's legal battle to deport Egyptian Mahmoud Jaballah, is a decade old, having been launched in 1999. Cases against three other al-Qaeda suspects are also continuing, and unlikely to result in deportation because doing so would send them to homelands where they would probably be tortured.

However, proponents say the security-certificate process would be a bargain at any price, given how the tool was painstakingly created to balance civil liberties with national-security imperatives. Anil Kapoor, part of the “special advocate” class of lawyers recently created to fight these cases, said “the public does win. If any security-certificate procedure prevents one terrorist attack or ensures the release of an innocent person, it will be well worth the price.”

While the government did contact Mr. Kapoor for his views, he did not disclose the amount of tax dollars that have been spent.

When the Supreme Court found the security-certificate process was tilted in favour of the state – given how Crown lawyers could advance their arguments in secret, judge-only hearings – Parliament's fix was the creation of the special advocates to go to bat for the detainees in the secret hearings. This has added to the program's bottom line.

The special advocates don't charge the government exorbitantly – $275 an hour, which is more expensive than Legal Aid, but less than what many could charge in other cases. However, all the special advocates had to be screened for Top Secret clearance, and they often travel to fight their cases.

Similarly, the Justice Department has had to adjust, by redoubling its prosecutorial efforts. Justice is also compensating federal agencies – CSIS, the RCMP, and Immigration Canada – who are using more money and more personnel in these cases.


This is another “front” in the war against security. The first front was opened by activists like Alexandre (Sacha) Trudeau who championed the case of Hassan Almrei (http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/almrei/). Their implicit assumption was that the bumbling, jack-booted, American influenced security services had to be wrong and any ethnic had to be all right.

Rarely do we hear anyone in the national commentariat suggest that the Islamists and jihadists might be trying to infiltrate Canada in order to mount attacks against our country and our people.

I do not know if Almrei and Charkaoui and all the others are guilty or innocent; like 99.99% of Canadians I have no idea about the evidence the government might have; I cannot judge the level of threat. But neither can Sacha Trudeau or any of the journalists. Even the judges cannot “judge” because the issues they are currently, deciding are not about security; they are about the applicability of Canadian law to people in Canada. The fact is that every single person “in Canada” – with one foot on the tarmac – is fully protected by all the provisions of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

I think that principle, which is now enshrined in out law and, indeed, is a Constitutional principle, is wrong and I think it must be changed. Changing it is much, much easier said than done.

The “change” I want is to a layered approach:

•   Canadian citizens, in Canada, must, always have complete access to all the protections provided in the Charter;

•   Canadian citizens outside Canada can access most provisions of the Charter but it cannot be used to shield them from the full force of the laws in the places in which they reside or where they are visitors: if a Canadian is arrested for trafficking drugs in Singapore (where the punishment might involve capital punishment (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,177407,00.html)) that person cannot expect Canada to ride to the rescue, waving a copy of our Charter;

•   Landed immigrants, in Canada, are entitled to many (even most) protections afforded by the Charter but they can be, should be deported whenever they are convicted of a crime (most crimes? just some crimes?);

•   Legal visitors to Canada, including those “admitted to Canada” and awaiting an upgrade in their status to e.g. landed immigrant have fewer protections. They may, for example, be deported on some (national security related) suspicions; and, finally

•   Those who are either illegals or those who have yet to clear immigration have NO protection at all, not even when they blurt out a refugee claim.

This is something akin to what Australia has now. We are not likely to get there. It would involve invoking the “notwithstanding” clause, probably over and over again, in the face of a veritable firestorm of outrage and protest – including some real Molotov cocktails tossed at government buildings – and a barrage of legal and political challenges. It is not clear to me that any living politician has the wherewithal to even try it here in Canada. That being the case, our defences are weak; we are vulnerable.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: George Wallace on October 03, 2009, 17:39:40
Reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act.


'Toronto 18' terrorist member handed 2 more years

(http://news.sympatico.ctv.ca/Home/ContentPosting?newsitemid=CTVNews%2f20091002%2fdirie_sentencing_091002&feedname=CTV-TOPSTORIES_V3&show=False&number=0&showbyline=True&subtitle=&detect=&abc=abc&date=True)

LINK (http://news.sympatico.ctv.ca/Home/ContentPosting?newsitemid=CTVNews%2f20091002%2fdirie_sentencing_091002&feedname=CTV-TOPSTORIES_V3&show=False&number=0&showbyline=True&subtitle=&detect=&abc=abc&date=True)

03/10/2009 12:26:56 PM

CTV.ca News Staff
A Toronto-area man who plotted to bomb RCMP headquarters and Parliament will have to serve another two years in jail, a court ruled Friday.


Ali Dirie, a member of the so-called Toronto 18 terror group, was handed the equivalent of a seven-year sentence for his part in the 2006 plot.

But because the 26-year-old has already served time behind bars, he will only serve another two years before being released.

"His moral culpability is high," said Ontario Superior Court Justice Bruce Durno in handing down the sentence.

Durno noted that because Dirie worked with the group over a relatively lengthy period, "his degree of responsibility is also high because of the duration of his involvement."

During sentencing arguments, lawyers argued over the fact that Dirie had served time in isolation before his trial.

But the judge rejected an appeal to give Dirie three to one pre-trial credit for time he served in isolation. The judge said that Dirie was placed in solitary confinement because of his own actions while in custody.

"It was his own misconduct that contributed in part to his placement in segregation," said the judge, who noted that Dirie was also "an unlikely candidate for parole."

Dirie, the fourth member of the group to be convicted, pleaded guilty to charges that he helped the group get guns and travel documents.

His defence lawyer said his client was very sorry about the offence, adding that much of his motivation stemmed from anger over Canada's involvement in Afghanistan.

But now, Dirie knows that violence isn't the answer.

"He realized that the means didn't advance his belief but in fact, if anything, retarded it," Nuttall said outside court.

"He profoundly regrets the means."

Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: George Wallace on October 03, 2009, 17:52:45
Reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act.


Quebec man guilty in Austrian-German bomb plot (http://news.sympatico.cbc.ca/Local/QC/ContentPosting?newsitemid=montreal-quebec-namouh-guilty&feedname=CBC_LOCALNEWS&show=False&number=0&showbyline=True&subtitle=&detect=&abc=abc&date=True)

LINK (http://news.sympatico.cbc.ca/Local/QC/ContentPosting?newsitemid=montreal-quebec-namouh-guilty&feedname=CBC_LOCALNEWS&show=False&number=0&showbyline=True&subtitle=&detect=&abc=abc&date=True)


01/10/2009 12:51:13 PM

CBC News
A Quebec man has been found guilty of being involved in an international terror plot threatening European countries involved in military operations in Afghanistan.


Saïd Namouh was convicted on four terrorism-related charges, including conspiracy to detonate an explosive device, participating in a terrorist act, facilitating such an act and committing extortion for a terrorist group.

After the verdict was rendered, Namouh's attorney René Duval said he did his best for his client, but isn't sure he will appeal.

Quebec Court Judge Claude Leblond "is a very good jurist, so when you read his decision, there's nothing at first sight would stand up as an egregious error," Duval told reporters at the Montreal courthouse.

Namouh, 36, was accused of participating in a plot to force the Austrian and German governments to withdraw their troops from Afghanistan.

During his three-week trial, the court was told Namouh was an active member of the Global Islamic Media Front, considered to be a media tool of al-Qaeda and involved in jihad recruitment.

Crown prosecutor Dominique Dudemaine presented evidence that Namouh posted terrorist propaganda on the internet, on behalf of the front.

Dudemaine argued that Namouh spent hours creating and distributing propaganda videos, including images of the deaths of Western soldiers and suicide bombings.

Cybercrime investigators extracted videos, including how-to guides for detonating suicide bombs and encrypting emails, from his computer. They also found thousands of pages of transcripts of Namouh's posts suggesting he was very active in chat rooms, message boards and jihad forums.

Namouh was also accused of publishing a video of BBC journalist Alan Johnston, who was kidnapped in Gaza in 2007 by the Army of Islam, a Global Islamic Media Front affiliate.

Leblond said Namouh also prepared ransom demands on behalf of the Army of Islam.

The judge reminded the court that the Islamic front is a terrorist organization in the eyes of the Canadian law.

There is no evidence Namouh was planning an attack on Canadian soil.

Namouh, a Moroccan immigrant and permanent resident in Canada, was arrested in September 2007 in Maskinongé, Que., in 2007, following a lengthy investigation by RCMP and Austrian authorities. He is married to a Quebec woman and has lived in the province since 2003.

Namouh faces life in prison. He is scheduled to return to court in November.

With files from The Canadian Press
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: E.R. Campbell on October 05, 2009, 08:57:54
Here, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from today’s Globe and Mail, is an example of why our courts of law are the wrong place to manage security threats:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/first-member-of-khadr-clan-testifies-today/article1311844/
Quote
First member of Khadr clan testifies today
The U.S. is seeking to extradite Canadian citizen Abdullah Khadr on a warrant alleging he sold arms to al-Qaeda while living in Pakistan
 
Colin Freeze

Monday, Oct. 05, 2009

A member of Canada's infamous Khadr clan will take the witness stand in Toronto today as his extradition hearing begins and in doing so, he will become the first member of the so-called al-Qaeda Family to testify in his own defence.

When Abdullah Khadr, 28, tells his story, the Canadian counterterrorism agents in the Ontario Superior Court will be reminded of a simple maxim: It's not the information you get, it's how you get it.

The Canadian citizen, whom the U.S. is seeking to extradite on a warrant alleging he sold arms to al-Qaeda while living in Pakistan, was held in a secret safe house in Pakistan and endured multiple interrogations at the hands of the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency and its allies, including CSIS and the RCMP.

His defence contends that any statements made during and since these interrogations by Mr. Khadr are tainted because he claims he was tortured by the Pakistanis and threatened by the Americans.

Ultimately, the judge will decide how to square Mr. Khadr's alleged admissions with such legal principles as the right to remain silent and the right to counsel, in determining whether any of his statements ought to count at all.

The Khadrs, a family of Canadian-citizen siblings that includes Omar Khadr who is being held in Guantanamo Bay, were raised in Afghanistan by a fanatical Egyptian-Canadian father. Now, nearly 15 years after this man - known simply as "the Canadian" to his al-Qaeda cohorts - beat suspicions he was linked to a deadly bombing in Pakistan, it's his son Abdullah Khadr who stands accused of selling to al-Qaeda figures in Afghanistan $20,000 worth of certain bomb chemicals as well as projectiles for Kalashnikov assault rifles and mortars that he had allegedly acquired in Pakistan.

Acknowledged friends of Osama bin Laden, the Khadrs fled Afghanistan for Pakistan after the 2001 U.S. invasion, though family members were soon picked up on both sides of the border. Two years after the exodus of the "Arab Afghans," the fugitive Abdullah Khadr was arrested in Pakistan - but only after, court records show, the U.S. government paid a $500,000 bounty to the Islamabad military dictatorship that existed at the time.

Top-ranking al-Qaeda members are worth millions, but Mr. Khadr was regarded as a catch in his own right. He was sent to a secret intelligence safe house, run by the host agency, Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence Directorate, and agents from the CIA, FBI, CSIS and the RCMP came calling.

The core allegations were amassed after a series of lawyer-less interviews in a legal limbo. When federal agents asked Mr. Khadr if he was part of al-Qaeda, he replied, "No, I only buy and sell weapons for al-Qaeda," according to a court-filed transcript.

He is even said to have explained how his father sent him to a terrorist training-camp at age 14, and that he "knows everyone" in the al-Qaeda hierarchy.

Mr. Khadr returned to Canada following the year he spent in the ISI safe house. ("I was never in al-Qaeda" he said in an interview at the time.)

Yet just a couple of weeks after he came back, Mounties he had gotten to know and trust arranged to meet him at a McDonald's in Scarborough.

At that meeting, the RCMP arrested him on a U.S. warrant. That was in 2005, and Mr. Khadr has been held in a Toronto jail ever since.

The Mounties will tell their side of the story during the extradition hearings too, including how they travelled to Pakistan to conduct interviews, but never laid charges under Canada's Anti-Terrorism Act. Part of the issue might have been that Mr. Khadr arrived at the RCMP interviews with an opaque hood over his head, according to court documents, and that the Pakistani ISI told the RCMP no lawyers would be allowed.

It's also anticipated that agents of the Canadian Security Intelligence Service will testify at the hearings, but hooded themselves, in a sense. This rare bit of testimony from CSIS will take place from behind screens, to shield the agents' identities. (In a pre-arrest interview Mr. Khadr said he knew them only as Mike and Bob.)

The CIA, often an unseen hand behind interrogations of Canadian al-Qaeda suspects detained abroad, is expected once again to be a no-show.

*****

Family tree
Key members of the Khadr family include:

AHMED SAID KHADR (Father):
 
Born in Egypt, the engineer became a Canadian citizen in the 1970s. He went to Afghanistan in the 1980s to take part in resistance to the Soviet occupation. During the 1990s, he moved his Canadian-born children there and he was briefly held on suspicion of a bombing in Pakistan. Close to Osama bin Laden, Mr. Khadr was heralded as a "martyr" by al-Qaeda figures after he was killed in a battle with the Pakistan army in 2003.

ABDULLAH KHADR (Eldest son):
 
(https://Air-Force.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbeta.images.theglobeandmail.com%2Farchive%2F00262%2Fabdullah_khadr_262201gm-a.jpg&hash=a18772c27da1cdf3711ece837dfb6715)
Abdullah Khadr leaves his Toronto attorney's office with his mother Maha El Samnah(left) after speaking with the media on Thursday December 8th, 2005.
The Globe and Mail

Abdullah was put into a training camp at age 14, and he was allegedly directed by his father to get guns and missiles to Arab fighters in Logar, Afghanistan, in 2003. Arrested the following year in Pakistan on a $500,000 (U.S.) bounty, he was held in a secret safe house for a year, where Canadian and U.S. agents grilled him. He goes on trial in Toronto today on a U.S. bid to extradite him as an al-Qaeda gunrunner.

ABDURAHMAN KHADR (Son):
 
This self-described "black sheep of an al-Qaeda family" became a CIA mole after his 2001 capture. The U.S. agency installed him, he says, in Afghan prisons, at Guantanamo Bay and in Bosnia to get a handle on what Islamist militants were thinking and doing. He has lived freely in Toronto for years.

OMAR KHADR (Son):
 
After an al-Qaeda insurgent in Afghanistan pleaded with Ahmed Said Khadr for a translator, the then-teenager was sent to the front lines. Captured in 2002 at the age of 15, following a deadly battle, he was charged with murder in the killing of a U.S. soldier after allegedly launching a grenade. The Stephen Harper government is ignoring judicial orders to lobby for the repatriation of the Canadian citizen, now held for years in Guantanamo Bay.

Compiled by Colin Freeze


The judge will, I hope ignore what Khadr said and what he may have been planning to do – none of that matters. The judge must defend Mr. Khadr against the massive, invasive powers of the state. The state must always be judged to be a threat to individual liberty and liberty ought to trump security. Law courts, not armies, are the primary defenders of  liberty. Soldiers, the second line of defence, ought to be proponents of the rights of the accused, even when those rights allow an obviously guilty person to walk free, because defending Canada, which involves defending liberty, is why we you are here and over there. What is Canada, after all, if it is not a place where liberty thrives?

I expect the judge to administer yet another blast to the Government of Canada’s loyal and hard working servants – the people who are doing their level best to get and keep suspected enemies off out streets and are foiling many and varied nefarious plots.

So, why come to a court of law, at all? Because there is no useful alternative, right now.

The big job was accomplished: whatever Khadr planned to do – and I, for one, am certain that he was up to no good because I trust our security services to get most things right most of the time – he was stopped. CSIS and/or the RCMP did their duty. There needs to be a legal way, which our civil and criminal law will not and, arguably, should not provide, to monitor him and prevent him from doing anything else wrong.

Sending our security and intelligence services into our law courts is not accomplishing the aim.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: E.R. Campbell on October 05, 2009, 09:06:08
And here, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from today’s Globe and Mail, is a suggestion re: how to protect our security without stretching our legal principles too far:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/opinions/how-to-design-a-better-anti-terrorism-tool/article1310404/
Quote
How to design a better anti-terrorism tool
With the security certificate system defunct, we need to focus more on our criminal law system

Craig Forcese

Monday, Oct. 05, 2009

The security certificate system as a tool of anti-terrorism is dead. Last week, the government abandoned its case against Adil Charkaoui, supposedly as a lesser evil to disclosing information it says would jeopardize national security.

Four other cases continue, and the government could “win” a few in the short-term. But even if the government demonstrates a reasonable basis for its allegations, the saga will continue – security certificates are supposed to be about deportation. And that prospect seems vanishingly remote because of the risk that the four remaining individuals will be tortured if deported. All of this means the government will inevitably need a “Plan B” for the future.

So what now? Faced with similar dilemmas in designing law as a tool of anti-terrorism, other states have done two things of note. First, they have used the criminal law with greater vigour than Canada. Second, some have tinkered with conventional legal standards to authorize constraints on liberty outside of criminal prosecutions.

Back to basics: criminal law
 
The first strategy is, relatively speaking, uncontroversial. There are, of course, difficult challenges. The question of national security confidentiality is ripe in criminal cases, as much as it has been in Canada's security certificate cases.

In a criminal matter, where national security confidentiality and a fair trial cannot be reconciled, the government may be forced to elect for disclosure over security, or see its case fail. But this is a difficult balance best established in a criminal trial, rather than in a security certificate system that cannot accomplish its stated goals of removal from Canada anyway.

It is notable that Canada's criminal law reaches far enough now in penalizing terrorism-related activity. New offences pepper the statute books since their post-9/11 reorganization. They could capture much – if not all – of the actions apparently at issue in the security certificate cases, although they could not apply to the actual individuals in question because their alleged conduct predates the new crimes.

Focusing on criminal law would also prompt a necessary cast change. Canada's security intelligence service – CSIS – has been involved in security certificates for a long time. It has, however, little experience with a process in which the accused person actively contests government claims, aided by highly experienced “special advocates.” The experience has clearly pained CSIS, and the agency's reputation has been deeply tarnished by its failures to apprise judges of weaknesses in its cases.

CSIS has likely learned a lot and with procedural rules now more clearly established, one would expect an improved performance in the future. But why convert CSIS into an agency that does courtroom evidence well? Such a conversion risks detracting from the different role CSIS is supposed to serve – providing intelligence to guide actions by government. For all its own troubles, the RCMP is a police force that lives daily with courts. Shifting the focus of anti-terrorism efforts to criminal law would give investigative primacy to the RCMP, and place CSIS in a supporting role. That is how it should be when an accused person's liberty is at stake.

Special detention regimes
 
In designing a Plan B, the government might be tempted to emulate Britain and Australia. There, so-called “control orders” and prolonged detention without charge allow governments to react quickly on information insufficient to sustain a criminal conviction.

Certainly, the government may need to act pre-emptively, in an effort to disrupt nascent terrorist threats. It is indisputable, however, that the terrorism crimes in Canada's post-9/11 statute book allow much more pre-emptive action than was the case beforehand. One crosses the line of a criminal offence very early in the preparation of an actual act of terrorist violence. The so-called “Toronto 18” cases are partial evidence of that fact.

Moreover, Parliament will eventually re-enact the expired “preventive detention” provisions of the anti-terrorism criminal law, allowing short-term detention prior to the imposition of so-called “peace bonds.” While it has its own shortcomings, this system is to be preferred over its British and Australian counterparts. Not least, Canadian proceedings would be in presumptively open courts, not closed-door hearings.

There is no doubt that the liberty of more people could be more readily limited if Canada followed Britain. But it is difficult to argue that the absence of a British-style system in Canada truly puts public safety in peril. There is also the small matter that a free society cannot eliminate all risks and still be free. The architects of Plan B must be governed by this truth. It is time to give the criminal law a fair shake.

Craig Forcese teaches national security law at the University of Ottawa's law school.


I do not agree with  Prof. Forcese (http://www.commonlaw.uottawa.ca/index.php?option=com_contact&task=view&contact_id=38&Itemid=286) but my grounds for disagreeing are weak. I do prefer with Australian/British model – even though it lets security trump liberty – which puts me at odds with my own values. That being admitted, maybe Forcese’s Plan B is a better way.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Chris Pook on October 05, 2009, 17:15:18
Here, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from today’s Globe and Mail, is an example of why our courts of law are the wrong place to manage security threats:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/first-member-of-khadr-clan-testifies-today/article1311844/

The judge will, I hope ignore what Khadr said and what he may have been planning to do – none of that matters. The judge must defend Mr. Khadr against the massive, invasive powers of the state. The state must always be judged to be a threat to individual liberty and liberty ought to trump security. Law courts, not armies, are the primary defenders of  liberty. Soldiers, the second line of defence, ought to be proponents of the rights of the accused, even when those rights allow an obviously guilty person to walk free, because defending Canada, which involves defending liberty, is why we you are here and over there. What is Canada, after all, if it is not a place where liberty thrives?

I expect the judge to administer yet another blast to the Government of Canada’s loyal and hard working servants – the people who are doing their level best to get and keep suspected enemies off out streets and are foiling many and varied nefarious plots.

So, why come to a court of law, at all? Because there is no useful alternative, right now.

The big job was accomplished: whatever Khadr planned to do – and I, for one, am certain that he was up to no good because I trust our security services to get most things right most of the time – he was stopped. CSIS and/or the RCMP did their duty. There needs to be a legal way, which our civil and criminal law will not and, arguably, should not provide, to monitor him and prevent him from doing anything else wrong.

Sending our security and intelligence services into our law courts is not accomplishing the aim.

It seems to me that there is room to go backwards here, again.

In the 18th century, when private citizens operated as armed agents of their governments under letters of marque it was possible for that citizen, when captured to offer his "parole", his word, that he wouldn't continue his activiities if he was released.  This presupposed a man of honour.

Having said that, it is the closest that I can think  of that would apply to the Al Qaeda pre-Congress of Vienna mindset.

The procedure could only be that an individual captured on a battlefield under arms would first of all be given the assumption of innocence, in so far as he would be assumed to be a soldier until proven otherwise.  As a soldier he would be granted the privileges of the captured soldier - which is to say indefinite detention for the duration of hostilities.  UNLESS - he was prepared to offer his parole in which case he would be assumed, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, to be a man of his word.

Then if he were picked up again on the battlefield, demonstrably having broken his word then he could be charged and treated as a common criminal.

This allows our enemies two kicks... the first one on us.

But it conforms to the maxim: Fool me once, shame on you.  Fool me twice, shame on me.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: E.R. Campbell on October 06, 2009, 17:22:24
There is some good news on the counter-terrorism front according to this report, reproduced under the fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from today’s Globe and Mail web site:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/spy-services-granted-new-power/article1313804/
Quote
Spy services granted new power
Federal Court decision paves way for the international surveillance of Canadian citizens suspected of terrorism links

Colin Freeze

Toronto
Tuesday, Oct. 06, 2009 01:27PM EDT

Canada's spy services have a new power: the ability to listen in on “homegrown” Canadian suspects travelling abroad to terrorism hot-spots such as Somalia, Pakistan and Afghanistan.

In a Federal Court decision released today, Mr. Justice Richard Mosley decided the court can sign off on domestic warrants that allow for the international surveillance of Canadian citizens suspected of links to terrorism.

These warrants would be used for intelligence gathering, not necessarily for criminal prosecutions in open court.

The application came as Canadian spies sought “urgent” permission in January to follow two unidentified Canadians, presumably terrorism suspects, travelling to an unidentified country from Canada. These travels “pertained to threat activities which, it was believed, the two individuals would engage in while travelling outside of Canada,” reads today's ruling.

“Individuals who pose a threat to the security of Canada may move easily and rapidly from one country to another and maintain lines of communication with others of like mind,” Judge Mosley said. “Information which may be crucial to prevent or disrupt the threats may be unavailable to the security agencies of this country if they lack the means to follow those lines of communication.”

Federal spy masters had been seeking the authority for years, amid complaints that Canada's Cold War-era laws failed to address the threat of alleged Canadian terrorists who travel outside the country.

The specific problem? The Canadian Security Intelligence Service, the country's “human intelligence” spies, can get wiretaps only for use in Canada if a judge signs off on a warrant. The Communications Security Establishment, the country's secretive “signals intelligence” agency, has the technological ability to listen to anyone it wants, anywhere in the world, but it is legally banned from spying within Canada or on Canadian citizens, wherever they may be.

It was illegal for Canada's spies to listen in on Canadian terrorism suspects the moment they left the country. This left intelligence officials complaining their investigations could suddenly go dark.

In the past, bureaucrats and judges had difficulty with the CSIS argument that it should be allowed to deputize the international powers of the CSE to advance domestic investigations. Judges maintained they enforced Canadian laws and had no power to sign off on arguably illegal or “extra legal” spying in other countries.

Judge Mosley has authored a compromise: He and his colleagues will sign off on such warrants provided the “international” spying actually takes place within Canada.

This essentially means the CSE can listen in on international conversations involving Canadian suspects via satellite signals and data lines that can be intercepted from Canada. From there, powerful algorithms and search engines can seek to isolate the “Canadian” conversations.

"It recognizes that security threats are global and highly mobile. CSIS can now use this tool to defend Canada's security," said Manon Berube, a spokeswoman for the Canadian Security Intelligence Service.

"In our view this decision recognizes that security threats move easily from one country to another and that countering those threats required a new approach."

Two things are striking about Judge Mosley’s 41-page ruling.

One is the absolute haste with which spies felt compelled to act. They had been snooping on their targets for two months when the two Canadians boarded an outbound plane for parts unknown.

“Given the urgency of the situation laid before me … I determined it would be inappropriate to delay the issuance of the warrant,” Judge Mosley wrote. The ruling does not make clear what, if anything, happened to the suspects after they went overseas nine months ago.

It’s not clear whether the suspects ever returned to Canada. If CSIS feels strongly enough about a terrorism case, the spy agency can hand over files to police in hopes that they can put together a criminal case, but there have been no significant terrorism arrests in Canada the intervening period.

The second striking aspect to the ruling is that it blacks out any allusions to the CSE’s spy craft, even though the basic principals under which electronic eavesdropping agencies intercept phone calls, e-mails, and internet chats are well known, at least in general. This is surprising, given Judge Mosley has ordered disclosures of arguable state secrets in past rulings. It’s matter of common practise to sanitize any information that would tend to identify suspects who haven’t been arrested.

A number of recent Canadian prosecutions have brought the issue of homegrown terrorism to the fore, but this may be the tip of the iceberg.

There are growing concerns that young Canadian extremists are flocking to global hot spots. For example, the U.S. Congress has heard recent testimony that Canadians are among the Westerners flocking to an Islamist insurgency movement in Somalia known as “the Shabab.” A few years ago a young Canadian university student was arrested in Afghanistan and accused of helping insurgents there.

There were also unconfirmed reports from Pakistan's tribal areas that Canadian citizens were among the militants killed in a U.S drone strike.


If I understand this ruling then it is, indeed, a big step forwards and it is long overdue.

There should be, in my view no need to ever bring this sort of information into open court: spies and terrorists ought not to be arrested, charged and tried in our courts unless they are of the “homegrown” variety, and perhaps not even then; there needs to be a better way. 
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: E.R. Campbell on October 07, 2009, 18:50:37
Canadian judges are being appropriately cautious according to this news story, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from today’s Globe and Mail web site:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/judge-says-no-to-terror-suspects-bid-for-cellphone-access/article1315331/
Quote
Judge says no to terror suspect's bid for cellphone access
A federal judge has denied a request from terror suspect Mohamed Harkat to further loosen his bail conditions - with one exception

Ottawa
The Canadian Press

Wednesday, Oct. 07, 2009

A federal judge has denied a request from terror suspect Mohamed Harkat to further loosen his bail conditions – with one exception.

Mr. Harkat will be allowed to travel outside the national capital region to places in Ontario and Quebec if details can be worked out with federal officials.

In a ruling released today, Justice Simon Noel said it was too early to consider Mr. Harkat's other demands, given that the substance of his case has yet to be heard.

Among other things, Mr. Harkat requested removal of the electronic monitoring bracelet on his ankle, permission to have a cell phone and more freedom to use a computer.

The Canadian Security Intelligence Service alleges Mr. Harkat is involved with the al-Qaeda terror network – a claim he denies.

Last month the court did ease bail conditions considerably, meaning no more surveillance cameras in Mr. Harkat's Ottawa home, no need to approve visitors and no further interception of mail and phone calls.

The government has been trying to deport the Algerian-born Mr. Harkat using a national security certificate, a rarely employed immigration tool, since his December 2002 arrest.

He and four other men face removal from Canada under certificates. All are fighting to remain in the country.


This is modestly good news.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: E.R. Campbell on October 08, 2009, 11:49:31
Here, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from today’s Globe and Mail, is a report that one of the potentially key witnesses is playing fast and loose skirthing the edge of law and duty in an effort to get “evidence” (or just rumour) in front of the MPCC:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/diplomat-bucks-ottawa-by-sending-evidence-to-detainee-probe/article1315612/
Quote
Diplomat bucks Ottawa by sending evidence to detainee probe
Military watchdog adjourns hearing into treatment of Afghan detainees after government lawyers question scope of investigation
 
Steven Chase

Ottawa

Wednesday, Oct. 07, 2009

A Canadian diplomat yesterday resisted federal government attempts to stop him from testifying before an inquiry into Canada's Afghan detainee controversy, filing evidence with the probe to prove he's got vital information to impart.

But in an unusual move, Richard Colvin shipped his affidavit to the Military Police Complaints Commission probe in a sealed envelope – a statement that will remain unread by inquiry officials until government censors vet it.

Mr. Colvin, who was previously posted in Afghanistan for Ottawa, sent his statement to the inquiry under virtual lock and key in order to guard against the risk of being jailed for violating national secrets.

The dramatic presentation of evidence came the same day that more legal jousting erupted between the Harper government and the commission, another bout of wrangling that could end up further delaying long-postponed hearings.

The military police watchdog has been trying to probe whether Canadian soldiers were complicit in handing over Afghan prisoners to that country's intelligence service – because they knew, or should have known, detainees were likely to be tortured in Afghanistan's notorious jails.

But government lawyers have repeatedly sought to delay and thwart public hearings.

Yesterday commission chair Peter Tinsley announced the tribunal will appeal a September federal court ruling that severely restricted the scope of the Afghan inquiry. It was a judgment that agreed with Ottawa's arguments that the watchdog had originally overstepped its boundaries.

Responding to Mr. Tinsley, Justice Department lawyers argued a motion calling for a suspension of the hearings until courts settle the question of the scope of the inquiry.

Alain Prefontaine, the lead government lawyer, said such an adjournment could mean a two-month delay in hearings.

And if that happens, it would mean the public portion of the inquiry would not resume before Mr. Tinsley, a Liberal appointee, reaches the end of his single term as commission chair on Dec. 11. The Harper government has refused Mr. Tinsley's request for reappointment, with Defence Minister Peter MacKay advising him in a letter “to start your career planning as soon as possible.”

Mr. Tinsley yesterday adjourned hearings and said he would rule next week on whether they would continue during an appeal.

Paul Champ, a lawyer for the human-rights groups that triggered the inquiry, said he's worried the Harper government is trying to run out the clock until Mr. Tinsley leaves, after which time they'd “appoint somebody who's friendly” and would “shut it down.”

Mr. MacKay, however, said the Tories have no intention of interfering with the inquiry.

Mr. Colvin, who now works at Canada's embassy in Washington, has been subpoenaed to testify.

He was the political director of an Afghanistan provincial reconstruction team until 2007.

Mr. Colvin's lawyer has argued the diplomat has personal knowledge of what military police knew about the risks of torture.

But federal lawyers have used the anti-terrorism law to bully Mr. Colvin, citing concerns about national security, his lawyer alleged in a letter to Ottawa this week. The law carries penalties of jail time for disclosing national secrets.

That's why Mr. Colvin sent the sealed affidavit to the watchdog, in order that he avoid legal jeopardy even while trying to prove his testimony would be worthwhile. It gives the commission a copy of it while government lawyers not affiliated with the inquiry vet it.


Of course, I do not know what Mr. Colvin knows or what he thinks he knows or what he heard from local Afghans. If he knows something – first hand knowledge – then the commission should, probably, hear about it. If someone told him something then it is, I believe it is just hearsay (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/hearsay) and, consequently, valueless and would serve only to muddy the waters.

Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: GAP on October 08, 2009, 13:44:36
Toronto 18 ring leader pleads guilty
Posted: October 08, 2009, 12:27 PM by Ron Nurwisah
Article Link (http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/toronto/archive/2009/10/08/toronto-18-ring-leader-pleads-guilty.aspx)
 
The alleged ring leader of the Toronto 18 terror cell has entered a guilty plea in court on Thursday.

Zakaria Amara, 23, was the alleged mastermind of the plot to explode truck bombs at prominent locations around Toronto and Ottawa. He is expected to receive life in prison.

Read more: http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/toronto/archive/2009/10/08/toronto-18-ring-leader-pleads-guilty.aspx#ixzz0TMal3SKf (http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/toronto/archive/2009/10/08/toronto-18-ring-leader-pleads-guilty.aspx#ixzz0TMal3SKf)
More on link
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: E.R. Campbell on October 08, 2009, 14:04:22
More on the same: According to this report, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from the CBC News web site, a fourth member of the Toronto 18, this one a so called ringleader, has admitted his guilt:

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/story/2009/10/08/toronto-18-plot-guilty-plea.html
Quote
[siuze=14pt] Alleged Toronto 18 ringleader pleads guilty[/size]
Thursday, October 8, 2009

CBC News

Zakaria Amara pleaded guilty Thursday to charges related to the alleged Toronto 18 plot to set off three fertilizer bombs, two in Toronto and one at an unnamed Ontario military base.

Amara, 24, has been alleged to be one of the ringleaders in the plot to recruit and train extremists to carry out the attacks, which never transpired. He is the fourth adult to admit guilt in the affair.

In a Brampton, Ont., courtroom, Amara pleaded guilty to two counts: knowingly participating in a terrorist group and intending to cause an explosion for the benefit of a terrorist group.

Justice Bruce Durno entered convictions against Amara on those counts before proceeding to sentencing. An agreed statement of facts is being read into the court record.

In all, 17 men and youths were arrested in the Toronto area in June 2006 and detained following an investigation by CSIS. An 18th person was arrested in August 2006.

The suspects faced charges including participating in a terrorist group, receiving training from a terrorist group, providing training and intending to cause an explosion that could cause serious bodily harm or death.

The offences allegedly took place between March and June 2006 in Mississauga and a rural township near Orillia, Ont.

The Crown alleges that the group's potential targets were the CN Tower, the Toronto Stock Exchange and the Toronto CSIS office.

Seven of the 18 people arrested have since had their charges dropped or stayed. Another six are in custody awaiting trial.

Four down!

Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: E.R. Campbell on October 15, 2009, 08:53:53
Here, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from today’s Globe and Mail is some more bad news:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/judge-denies-csis-bid-to-revisit-secrecy-issues/article1324270/
Quote
Judge denies CSIS bid to revisit secrecy issues
Decision should bring to a close the security-certificate case of Adil Charkaoui, once accused by spy agency of ties to al-Qaeda

LES PERREAUX AND COLIN FREEZE

Thursday, Oct. 15, 2009

The Federal Court has dealt the government another setback in its attempts to deport alleged terrorists, ruling that key questions about what Canada's spy service must reveal in court do not deserve another look.

So-called security-certificate cases have become a high-stakes battleground over how Canada is to balance individual rights with the country's need to protect itself against terrorism. Federal lawyers last month chose to walk away from a key case - that of Adil Charkaoui, a Moroccan living in Montreal - rather than divulge information that they said could compromise national security.

Federal Court Judge Danièle Tremblay-Lamer yesterday rejected complaints that she was demanding too much transparency from the Canadian Security Intelligence Service, a clandestine agency launched 25 years ago, and now complaining it is fighting a losing battle to protect state secrets.

"It's understandable a disagreement on evidence would create ... the belief the court put individual rights ahead of the demands of national security," Judge Tremblay-Lamer wrote in her 68-page ruling, "but that belief is unfounded."

Federal officials rely on CSIS information to initiate security-certificate cases, which amount to expedited bids to jail foreigners as high-level threats and then deport them. Yesterday's ruling should be the last word on the long-running Charkaoui affair.

Judge Tremblay-Lamer rejected a Crown request for a higher court to revisit some of the secrecy issues raised by the case. This disappointed CSIS officials, who hoped to get some legal clarity that would guide future cases.

"It is unfortunate that, given the unique nature of this decision and the implications for national security, the judge did not agree that the case presented aspects that warranted an appeal," said Manon Bérubé, a spokeswoman for the spy service.

During six years of litigation, Mr. Charkaoui won several bids to force CSIS to reveal information used to brand him a threat. Now the spy service is struggling to launch future cases. No new security certificates have been issued for years, and Mr. Charkaoui is free of the threat of jail, surveillance or eventual deportation.

The Charkaoui case was one of five active security-certificate cases that became bogged down in procedure and multimillion-dollar litigation. The remaining cases are at least seven years old.

Throughout them all, a predictable pattern has emerged: As defence lawyers press for ever greater disclosure, CSIS refuses to reveal information touching on its spy craft. And judges - regardless of what they think of state secrecy or the strength of each case - will not allow Islamist extremists to be sent back to homelands where they might be tortured.

Implicit in all of this is the question of whether Canada's spies belong in open court at all. Increasingly, CSIS operatives - who don't work to the same legal standards as police - complain of being sucked into court against their will. And it's not only security-certificate cases that are problematic.

Currently CSIS officials are testifying in the pretrial phases of criminal cases, often appearing as uncomfortable witnesses as defence lawyers test their investigative rigour. Within days, two CSIS agents will be called to testify - anonymously, and from behind screens - about their dealings overseas in the Abdullah Khadr extradition matter.

Federal officials had hoped to salvage a moral victory from the Charkaoui case by asking Judge Tremblay-Lamer to kick up some key questions to the higher courts. But Judge Tremblay-Lamer ruled the request amounted to an end run around her orders to disclose more CSIS information to Mr. Charkaoui.

The judge recalled how she asked the government to contact foreign intelligence agencies to ask their permission to disclose evidence lent to CSIS. On this point, security officials changed their minds "from one week to the next" on the damage that such a request could to do to national security, she said. "It's relevant to recall to what point the notion of national security is a matter of perspective," Judge Tremblay-Lamer ruled. "There can exist grey zones where disagreement is possible."

Mr. Charkaoui, now 36, had been branded by government officials as a top-tier al-Qaeda threat to Canada.

His lawyer is planning a lawsuit and related actions. "If they didn't want to divulge their evidence, they shouldn't have pursued the security certificate," said Johanne Doyon.

She said the CSIS national security claims were "nothing but a smokescreen."


I understand CSIS’s very legitimate desire for ”some legal clarity that would guide future cases,” but, as Perreaux and Freeze say in the story, ”implicit in all of this is the question of whether Canada's spies belong in open court at all.

My answer is that they should not. We need a new, better way to deal with national security cases – those involving legal and illegal residents and Canadian citizens alike.

Parliament owes the people of Canada its most urgent attention on this matter. But the media has made this issue so politically dangerous that most parliamentarians, led by our Prime Minister, Stephen Harper, and his colleague the Leader of Her Majesty’s Loyal Opposition, Michael Igantieff, are too frightened to address it.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: E.R. Campbell on October 15, 2009, 09:06:06
And here, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from today’s Globe and Mail, is Christie Blatchford’s take on the issue:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/theres-no-one-who-could-argue-the-current-system-is-working-as-it-should/article1324208/
Quote
There's no one who could argue the current system is working as it should
 
CHRISTIE BLATCHFORD

Thursday, Oct. 15, 2009
 
When I told a colleague yesterday I'd spent the day at the extradition hearing for Abdullah Khadr, she asked, "anything interesting happen?"

"I haven't a clue," I replied.

Such as A) the specific nature of court proceedings against various members of the notorious first family of Canadian terrorism, and B) the general nature of Canadian court proceedings in terrorism-related matters that much of the evidence is kept from Canadians, and what is left to decipher is often indecipherable.

Consider that yesterday before Ontario Superior Court judge Christopher Speyer, for instance, the witness in the stand was frequently directed to something called "the Private Reasons of Justice Mosley" (this would be Federal Court Judge Richard Mosley, who made an order in the case allowing some previously secret information to be publicly disclosed), various bits of which are still redacted (this means censored), none of which is in the public domain.

Also consider that today's witness will be a CSIS agent, who will testify from behind a screen in order that his ability to continue working in the field is not compromised.

I have two things to say about that.

The first is that not too long ago, I had occasion to speak to a group of CSIS agents (the contents of my speech and the assembled group must remain ears-only of course, and I frankly fear I may have breached the Official Secrets Act by disclosing this little) and suffice it to say that for someone who went hoping to see someone remotely like the actor Daniel Craig (the new James Bond: the new and comely James Bond), preferably in the blue trunks he wore in Casino Royale, it was a crushing disappointment. You could meet some of the CSIS agents I saw that night a thousand times and not remember their faces the next second, so relentlessly ordinary-and-suburban-looking a group are they.

The second thing is, that if witnesses are called from the federal Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade, or DFAIT as the branch is always called - as could happen, since some of their folks were involved when Abdullah was being held in Pakistan before coming back to Canada - I suggested they be allowed to testify from behind lace hankies or parasols, so as to reflect their greater delicacy and less tolerance for the bad behaviour that CSIS and RCMP types allegedly tolerate more easily.

If this makes no sense, perfect. That is just how the courts like it. We're all too stupid to understand anyway.

After court, I ran a couple of searches for previous court decisions, using the Khadr v. Canada search term.

In Federal Court, my query returned 42 results, 13 of them direct decisions in cases involving various Khadrs.

Two involve Abdullah, who is now 28 and facing extradition by the United States on charges he was an arms supplier to al-Qaeda, including allegedly hydrogen peroxide used in the making of land mines which he told authorities would be used against U.S. and coalition forces in Afghanistan (and thus against Canadians).

One case involves his brother Abdurahman, who isn't charged with anything and has never been deemed a threat, but who three years ago was fighting his refusal of a Canadian passport, which had been denied him on the grounds of national security because of his acknowledged al-Qaeda family. He ended up being allowed to reapply.

The other 10 cases involved their brother Omar, who is being held at Guantanamo Bay and is alleged to have thrown a grenade that killed a U.S. soldier in Afghanistan in 2002.

A similar search of Supreme Court of Canada decisions, using the same term, returned 33 results.

The point is that the prosecution/representation of the various Khadrs has been a real growth industry in this country, and to little discernible result in that Omar is still in Cuba and Abdullah is still here in Canada and the female Khadrs who show up in court, some of them as veiled and covered as the process itself, still read ostentatiously from the Koran, clicking their tongues as they go.

I should add that Dennis Edney, the most affable Scot who has been the family's most steadfast lawyer over all these years, has done a huge chunk of work for free, or as the bar calls it, pro bono. Mr. Edney blushed in embarrassment when I asked him about this yesterday, clearly uncomfortable. But he admitted he's probably spent $100,000 of his own money representing the family, even as he demurred, with a grin, "there's no Scottish word for pro bono."

His burr, incidentally, means that though he was reading into the record, as questions, some of Judge Mosley's Private Reasons yesterday, thus theoretically bringing some of it into the public domain, it was still tricky to decipher.

At the end of the day, I don't think there's anyone who could argue that the current system is working very well - certainly not for Canadians, who seem never to get an answer to the only question that ever matters in these cases, that is, is X a terrorist or not?

The two Khadrs, for instance, have spent between them more than a decade in jails in Pakistan, Afghanistan, Cuba and Canada but never once faced a proper trial, held in the open. They are alleged to have committed heinous acts; they claim to be the victims of heinous torture that their lawyers say renders any alleged confessions fruit of the poisoned tree and thus unreliable. Where does the truth lie between those extremes and will we ever know, or will we just keep them in jail as long as we can and then pay out millions in damages when they're released, as if we are sorry?


Blatchford is right: Canadians, all Canadians – even those accused of some security offences, are ill served by the existing “system.”

The first duty of the sovereign, in other words of all of us, is to defend the realm against “all enemies, foreign and domestic,” as our American friends love to say.

We have “domestic enemies.” “We” have had them so long as there has been a “we.” It is the duty of the national government to:

•   Protect us from those enemies; but

•   To protect “our” fundamental civil rights at the same time.

It’s a hideously complex task but there is no excuse for not getting the job done. The people who have the duty to “do the job” are members of parliament, especially those who are members of the government and, amongst those, the members of the cabinet led by Prime Minister Stephen Harper.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: leroi on October 21, 2009, 13:17:07
Maybe now that these cases are being successfully prosecuted more details will emerge about the plot. Some good videos of the "take down" and the terrorist "trigger test" and about five other videos are contained in this Globe and Mail article of October 20, 2009 authored by Colin Freeze. The videos can be located by scrolling to bottom of article.

Videos Give Public Glimpse of Homegrown Terror Plot

LINK (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/videos-give-public-glimpse-of-homegrown-terror-plot/article1331227)

These dramatic videos, released Tuesday by the Ontario Superior court, tell the tale of an al-Qaeda inspired cell of “homegrown” Canadian terrorists.

In June, 2006, a group of young extremists plotted to detonate deadly fertilizer-based truck bombs in downtown Toronto and at a Canadian Forces base. Scores of people, perhaps hundreds, could have been killed by the blast. The aim was to terrorize the populace, and pressure politicians to pull soldiers from the continuing NATO mission in Afghanistan.

Many of the preparations were caught on tape, either in recordings the suspects made, or via devices covertly installed by authorities. Police infiltrated the group and, after months of surveillance, rounded up suspects on June 2, 2006, the day a “sting” shipment of ammonium-nitrate fertilizer was shipped to the group's key players.

The footage reveals the plans of Zakaria Amara and, to a lesser extent, his co-conspirators Saad Khalid and Saad Gaya. This group of young men from Mississauga, Ont., recently admitted their guilt in open court. The common plea? They conspired to cause massive explosions in downtown Toronto.

The videos were played as evidence during court proceedings, but were only made available following a Globe and Mail application for public release of the footage.

A half dozen suspects remain before the courts, but only one of them is implicated in the bomb plot. The rest face lesser terrorism charges. It is anticipated their trial will begin in January. None of the videos posted here identify any of the remaining accused, whose identities are shielded by court-ordered publication bans.

Here reproduced in accordance with the Fair Dealing provision (29) of the Copyright Act.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: MARS on October 30, 2009, 11:12:25
New CSIS director criticizes Canadian opinion leaders, shared in accordance with the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act.

------------------------------------
Canada oblivious to terror danger: CSIS boss
 
New director takes aim at critics in first public speech
 
By Ian MacLeod, The Ottawa CitizenOctober 30, 2009 6:36 AM

OTTAWA — Despite a history of domestic terrorism, from Air India to the Toronto 18, Canada has a “serious blind spot” acknowledging that violent extremism imperils our national security, says the new head of the Canadian Security Intelligence Service.

In his first public speech since becoming Canada’s spy master this summer, Richard B. Fadden wasted no time Thursday railing against those he believes ignore, minimize and even applaud terrorism and the people caught up in it, while portraying government efforts to combat extremism as assaults on liberty.

“Almost any attempt to fight terrorism by the government is portrayed as an overreaction or an assault on liberty. It is a peculiar position, given that terrorism is the ultimate attack on liberties,” Fadden told an Ottawa conference of about 300 security and intelligence specialists.

In advocating for a more mature, nuanced debate on national security, Fadden directed his harshest comments at news media, a “loose partnership of single-issue NGOs, advocacy journalists and lawyers,” and Canadians who naively believe, “our charm and the Maple Leaf on our backpacks are all that we need to protect us.

“Why … are those accused of terrorist offences often portrayed in media as quasi-folk heroes, despite the harsh statements of numerous judges? Why are they always photographed with their children, given tender-hearted profiles, and more or less taken at their word when they accuse CSIS or other government agencies of abusing them?

“I … am not arguing that those accused of offences should be portrayed as guilty,” Fadden added. “In fact, a more balanced presentation is what I am hoping for.”

Instead, he said, accused terrorists are routinely portrayed as too unsophisticated, ill-prepared or youthful to actually commit such heinous acts. That theme, “permeates a fair amount of the coverage of those charged in the Toronto plot.

“I seriously doubt, however, whether editors would allow this kind of reasoning to be used in news coverage of those accused of murder or robbery.”

.....more at the link (http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/Canada+oblivious+terror+danger+CSIS+boss/2159557/story.html)
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: mariomike on November 26, 2009, 20:57:43
"Man who made hoax terror calls gets 12 months: "TORONTO — A Mississauga, Ont., man who pleaded guilty to making hoax terrorist calls has been sentenced to 12 months in jail.":
http://toronto.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20091126/hoax_calls_091126/20091126/?hub=TorontoNewHome
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: E.R. Campbell on December 14, 2009, 14:15:21
This, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from today’s Globe and Mail, illustrates why we need a thorough overhaul of our entire immigration and refuges systems, beginning with the fact that the two totally unrelated, on to the other:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/court-strikes-down-security-certificate-against-almrei/article1399619/
Quote
Court strikes down security certificate against Almrei
Syrian-born man was arrested eight years ago on terror suspicions; Ottawa had been trying to deport him on seldom-used provision of immigration law

Ottawa — The Canadian Press
Monday, Dec. 14, 2009

A federal judge has struck down a national security certificate against a Syrian-born man arrested eight years ago on terror suspicions.
The ruling today by Federal Court Justice Richard Mosley effectively frees Hassan Almrei.

The government had been trying to deport Mr. Almrei on a security certificate – a seldom-used provision of the immigration law for removing suspected terrorists and spies.

Mr. Almrei's lawyer, Lorne Waldman, said from Toronto his client was “very excited” over the ruling. Mr. Waldman had not yet read the full decision, and said he and Mr. Almrei would comment later.

The government argued the Syrian native's travel, activities and involvement in a false-document ring were consistent with supporters of Osama bin Laden's al-Qaeda network.

The ruling says there were reasonable grounds to believe Mr. Almrei was a security danger when detained in October 2001, but there are no longer reasonable grounds to believe that today.

It also says federal cabinet ministers breached their duties of “good faith and candour” to the court by not thoroughly reviewing the information on file prior to re-issuing the certificate against Mr. Almrei in February of last year.

The case is another in a series of blows to the security certificate law. The federal government has launched a sweeping review after acknowledging the system needs fixing.

The review could scrap or revamp the law used to arrest and deport non-Canadians considered a threat to national security.

Certificates have existed for three decades, and more than two dozen have been issued since 1991, when they became part of federal immigration law.

But recent cases have slowed to a crawl – or collapsed altogether – amid legal challenges and upbraidings from judges over miscues by Canada's spy agency.

The government has initiated just six certificate cases – four terror suspects, a hatemonger and an alleged Russian spy – since the 9/11 attacks on the United States.

Among critics, the deportation tool has come to symbolize the worst excesses of the fight against Islamic extremism.

Opponents say the process is fundamentally unfair because detainees are not given full details of the allegations against them.

A case involving Montrealer Adil Charkaoui, a native of Morocco, fell apart recently when the government withdrew supporting evidence, saying its disclosure would reveal sensitive intelligence sources and methods of the Canadian Security Intelligence Service.

Mr. Charkaoui, a French teacher and father of three, wants compensation for his six-year ordeal.

Four active cases range from seven to 10 years old, illustrating the legal limbo that certificates can create for detainees.

Mahmoud Jaballah and Mohamed Zeki Mahjoub, both Egyptian, were arrested in 1999 and 2000 respectively, while Mr. Almrei was detained one month after Sept. 11, 2001, and Mohamed Harkat of Algeria seven years ago this month.

All four men were granted release from prison under strict conditions that have controlled virtually their every move while the cases play out in the Federal Court of Canada.


I have no problem with the judge’s decision, as I understand it; he is interpreting the law, as written, in the light of the Charter, etc. The problem is with the laws and regulations that aid criminals and terrorists rather than protecting Canada from them.

We must begin by using the notwithstanding clause of the Constitution to do away with e.g. Singh v Canada (Minister of Employment and Immigration) that, effectively, granted Charter protection to every single individual who manages, by hook or by crook, to get one foot on Canadian territory. The decision is pernicious and must be overturned or nothing else can be done.

Then, Charter rights and protections must be earned by newcomers on a graduated basis: legal resident, landed immigrant and, finally, citizen.

As a corollary, persons who enter Canada improperly or illegally must be granted only the most fundamental human rights but those must not include protection from immediate deportation to the last (safe) place in which they were. (There are some obvious case where exceptions will be made.) But, that is, essentially, a refugee problem. People who arrive here illegally, intending to either find refuge or, most often, stay and settle (in other words: immigrate) apply as refugees. We must not allow it. There is a precise definition of refugee (http://www.unhcr.org/protect/PROTECTION/3b66c2aa10.pdf) as “a person who, owing to a well-founded fear of being persecuted on account of race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group, or political opinion, is outside the country of their nationality, and is unable to or, owing to such fear, is unwilling to avail him/herself of the protection of that country” and as a person who is fleeing war or violence. We, as human beings and as amongst the most fortunate people in the world have a human duty to help these people but that duty does not extend to making them into immigrants. Real refuges do not want to immigrate; real refugees want to go home, as soon as it is safe to do so. We can help, mostly, in two ways:

1.   By providing safe, humane ‘refuges’ near the refugees’ homes; and

2.   By helping to sort out the situation that created the refugees in the first place – that may involve the use of armed force.

Obviously, sometimes, neither of those courses will work and resettling refugees in Canada, as immigrants, will be the only solution but it should be the exception, not the rule.

Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: mellian on December 14, 2009, 15:32:34
From what I can tell, especially Harkat whose case I am more familiar with, they tried to immigrate. Just that the process can take while, and unable to return where they are from to wait, both in fear of getting persecuted and because what they had to do to get to Canada in the first place.

If one is the run from authorities from home for whatever reason, it becomes lot harder to get to Canada legally, let alone start immigration process outside of Canada. So the alternative is unfortunately find shady ways of get there, which can result needing to contact people security agencies around the world do not like and consider security threats.

So some folks get issued security certificates and arrested for nearly a decade of their lives simply because they were in contact with some bad folks even if it was only once and very brief?

Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: E.R. Campbell on December 14, 2009, 15:52:51
...
So some folks get issued security certificates and arrested for nearly a decade of their lives simply because they were in contact with some bad folks even if it was only once and very brief?


Yes.

It might be that "we" are erring on the side of caution, but it IS national security, our national security and "we" are entitled, indeed duty bound, as citizens, to protect our country.


Edit: grammar   :-[
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: S.M.A. on December 14, 2009, 18:16:43
This, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from today’s Globe and Mail, illustrates why we need a thorough overhaul of our entire immigration and refuges systems, beginning with the fact that the two totally unrelated, on to the other:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/court-strikes-down-security-certificate-against-almrei/article1399619/

I have no problem with the judge’s decision, as I understand it; he is interpreting the law, as written, in the light of the Charter, etc. The problem is with the laws and regulations that aid criminals and terrorists rather than protecting Canada from them.

We must begin by using the notwithstanding clause of the Constitution to do away with e.g. Singh v Canada (Minister of Employment and Immigration) that, effectively, granted Charter protection to every single individual who manages, by hook or by crook, to get one foot on Canadian territory. The decision is pernicious and must be overturned or nothing else can be done.

Then, Charter rights and protections must be earned by newcomers on a graduated basis: legal resident, landed immigrant and, finally, citizen.

As a corollary, persons who enter Canada improperly or illegally must be granted only the most fundamental human rights but those must not include protection from immediate deportation to the last (safe) place in which they were. (There are some obvious case where exceptions will be made.) But, that is, essentially, a refugee problem. People who arrive here illegally, intending to either find refuge or, most often, stay and settle (in other words: immigrate) apply as refugees. We must not allow it. There is a precise definition of refugee (http://www.unhcr.org/protect/PROTECTION/3b66c2aa10.pdf) as “a person who, owing to a well-founded fear of being persecuted on account of race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group, or political opinion, is outside the country of their nationality, and is unable to or, owing to such fear, is unwilling to avail him/herself of the protection of that country” and as a person who is fleeing war or violence. We, as human beings and as amongst the most fortunate people in the world have a human duty to help these people but that duty does not extend to making them into immigrants. Real refuges do not want to immigrate; real refugees want to go home, as soon as it is safe to do so. We can help, mostly, in two ways:

1.   By providing safe, humane ‘refuges’ near the refugees’ homes; and

2.   By helping to sort out the situation that created the refugees in the first place – that may involve the use of armed force.

Obviously, sometimes, neither of those courses will work and resettling refugees in Canada, as immigrants, will be the only solution but it should be the exception, not the rule.

Sir, I agree with you to a point. But how would you propose the Canadian government do this overhaul you propose?

A seperate agency that processes refugees altogether? But would't you be more wary of "more government" and thus "more bureaucracy"?  ;D

Also, regarding issue of the exception you point out for genuine refugees...

a.) The Canadian public do not always have the stomach to support armed force to "correct" the situation which made the refugees into refugees in the first place.

For example, would the Canadian or American public be willing to support their military sent in to stabilize Somalia just to allow a few thousand Somalis to return to their homeland? Or (to use an extreme example) even overthrow the Chinese government to allow all those Chinese political dissidents to return to their homeland?  I didn't think so.

b.) The first course of action may actually be more practical if you don't want them to come to Canada at all. Aren't there refugee camps for Somali refugees in neighbouring Kenya, for example? Or Afghan refugees in camps Pakistan as well? Perhaps funding for the aid agencies who deal with these refugees might be preferrable.

Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: E.R. Campbell on December 14, 2009, 18:39:01
I do not underestimate the difficulties in doing what I suggest is necessary but as the old maxim says, "when you want to get out of a hole, the first thing you must do is to stop digging."

I also agree that the first course - providing safe, humane but temporary refuge near the refugees' homelands - is easier but I suggest it may have to be accompanied by some of the latter, and that may involve the CF fighting, killing and dying in far away, flea-bitten, failing states.

Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: sm1lodon on December 14, 2009, 21:47:02
I do not underestimate the difficulties in doing what I suggest is necessary but as the old maxim says, "when you want to get out of a hole, the first thing you must do is to stop digging."

I also agree that the first course - providing safe, humane but temporary refuge near the refugees' homelands - is easier but I suggest it may have to be accompanied by some of the latter, and that may involve the CF fighting, killing and dying in far away, flea-bitten, failing states.

Once again, an ounce of prevention, especially applied far away, is worth a pound of cure, applied at home. Or a ton.

Instead of waiting, like WWII, for a power-mad dictator or force to take over the world or as much as they can grab, then jumping in (speaking of the USA, here, and not disparagingly), they, the USA, are taking the fight over to where the force, i.e. terrorism, has its nest.

Which, I think, will end up in Pakistan. Just chasing them out of Afghanistan into Pakistan and not defeating them in Pakistan reminds me of not taking the Vietnam war sufficiently far into Cambodia, which was the main supply highway for the North Vietnamese.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: mellian on December 14, 2009, 23:06:11

Yes.

It might be that "we" are erring on the side of caution, but it IS national security, our national security and "we" are entitled, indeed duty as citizens, bound to protect our country.

True, but there is such a thing as going overboard.

Immigration Officer reviewing Permanent Resident application: "I see here that you sat beside so and so on the plane?"

Immigrant Applicant: "Uh yes. Went to where I was assigned per the plane ticket"

"Then in that case, for associating with someone who is national security thread, your is Application Refused!"

"What?? I do not even know the guy and never met him before hand or even heard of him!"

"Still, we cannot take the risk to our national security no matter how small it is, deport back to where you come from you go!"

I also agree that the first course - providing safe, humane but temporary refuge near the refugees' homelands - is easier but I suggest it may have to be accompanied by some of the latter, and that may involve the CF fighting, killing and dying in far away, flea-bitten, failing states.

Canada and the CF is not exactly in the position to go around cleaning up some countries, especially for refugees. It is cheaper and easier to (and resource effective, safer, etc) to go through the hoops to live in Canada or pay for humanitarian refugee aid in neighbouring countries. Getting one's military stuck in various countries is not really good for national security.

Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Bruce Monkhouse on December 14, 2009, 23:22:31
True, but there is such a thing as going overboard.

Immigration Officer reviewing Permanent Resident application: "I see here that you sat beside so and so on the plane?"

Immigrant Applicant: "Uh yes. Went to where I was assigned per the plane ticket"

"Then in that case, for associating with someone who is national security thread, your is Application Refused!"

"What?? I do not even know the guy and never met him before hand or even heard of him!"

"Still, we cannot take the risk to our national security no matter how small it is, deport back to where you come from you go!"

I could come up with an equally pointless faux conversation with the slant being that we are too lax.........however it would be as pointless as the dribble above.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: mellian on December 15, 2009, 00:29:54
I could come up with an equally pointless faux conversation with the slant being that we are too lax.........however it would be as pointless as the dribble above.

Of course, and same with real cases, there are good and bad examples that can slant the argument either way. No matter how anal we are with security, even if we ban all refugees and immigrants from the country, we would still have national security threats and people still manage to get into Canada.

Even with the most totalitarians countries still have problems of people infiltrating into their country and possibly causing trouble (or attempt to), past and present. Fixing the whole refugee and immigration system not going to change all that much in terms of security concerns for Canada. Nor is sending the CF to clean up messes in other countries so we can send refugees claimants back home.

In the other hand, I agree that as 'citizens' of Canada, we have a responsibility in helping keeping our country safe and secure, and need to be able to accept certain measures for it to happen.





 
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: WR on December 15, 2009, 10:15:45
Quote
Quote from: mellian on Yesterday at 22:06:11
True, but there is such a thing as going overboard.

Immigration Officer reviewing Permanent Resident application: "I see here that you sat beside so and so on the plane?"

Immigrant Applicant: "Uh yes. Went to where I was assigned per the plane ticket"

"Then in that case, for associating with someone who is national security thread, your is Application Refused!"

"What?? I do not even know the guy and never met him before hand or even heard of him!"

"Still, we cannot take the risk to our national security no matter how small it is, deport back to where you come from you go!"



Having worked various roles at a major port of entry into Canada, both in the Customs and Immigration stream. I now currently work inland in an enforcement capacity and I can say categorically mellian you are completely out to lunch on that statement/belief on how permanent residents or refugee's are classified or processed.
Canada is quite lax and forgiving for past transgressions before your entry into Canada. We do not have as much leeway when you are actively involved in terrorism or issues that directly affect our national security. If we deported or prevented entry to every person that supports, socializes, prays with or even a relative of or contributes financially to a listed terrorist entity there would be a mass exodus for some ethnic communities.
Here is a hint....don't believe everything you read on CBC or the Huffington Post!!
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Journeyman on December 15, 2009, 13:07:05
Well that's got to suck. You and your pals pack up for Jihadi school, leave a propaganda video for mom & dad, get to Pakistan.......and no terrorist group wants you.
 :rofl:

Article link (http://www.abcnews.go.com/Blotter/arrested-americans-rejected-jihad-training/story?id=9306956&page=1)
Quote
Terror Wannabes? Arrested Americans Rejected For Jihad Training
By JIM SCIUTTO, PIERRE THOMAS and JASON RYAN
Dec. 10, 2009
The five American terror suspects arrested in Pakistan , where they allegedly sought training for jihad, may have had more ambition than actual ability, sources tell ABC News. Pakistani police say the men attempted to join several terror groups but were turned down....

Quote
Lawyer: Families of U.S. Muslims Arrested In Pakistan Don't Believe Men Are Guilty
Ri-iiight. The "final message" video, and searching for jihadists within Pakistan, were simply misunderstandings -- school boys on a lark, you know.
(https://Air-Force.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv410%2Fglima%2FEmoticons%2Fdoh.gif&hash=0bf8195e06b9a468388018a9bc4cb041)
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Danjanou on December 15, 2009, 16:38:40
Well that's got to suck. You and your pals pack up for Jihadi school, leave a propaganda video for mom & dad, get to Pakistan.......and no terrorist group wants you.
 :rofl:

Article link (http://www.abcnews.go.com/Blotter/arrested-americans-rejected-jihad-training/story?id=9306956&page=1)Ri-iiight. The "final message" video, and searching for jihadists within Pakistan, were simply misunderstandings -- school boys on a lark, you know.
(https://Air-Force.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv410%2Fglima%2FEmoticons%2Fdoh.gif&hash=0bf8195e06b9a468388018a9bc4cb041)

Hmmm I wonder  is there a local chapter of these guys they could join?
http://www.frontiersmenhistorian.info/links.htm
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: E.R. Campbell on January 04, 2010, 22:53:58
Here, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from today’s Red Toronto Star, is a story about another terrorist in Canada:

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/745524--fanatics-return-to-city-feared?bn=1
Quote
Fanatic convert to terrorism spent year in Toronto

John GoddardStaff Reporter

Published On Mon Jan 04 2010


One of the most visible leaders of an Al Qaeda-affiliated terrorist militia in Somalia spent a year in Toronto ingratiating himself into the Somali immigrant community as a convert to Islam.

Omar Hammami – known to followers as Abu Mansour "Al-Amriki" (the American) – ate at Somali restaurants and prayed in Somali mosques. He married a Toronto woman of Somali origin and had a daughter with her.

(https://Air-Force.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia.thestar.topscms.com%2Fimages%2Ff7%2F06%2F7388f2c84766a1974836024c35e0.jpeg&hash=6269d74e2afa6216bfbc11c3eba2711e)
Omar Hammami, known as Abu Mansour "al-Amriki," is seen in a YouTube video

Then, after learning Somali ways, he left to join the Horn of Africa's top terror group, Al-Shabab, to wage Islamic jihad and recruit other foreign nationals to the cause, say former friends and relatives speaking publicly of the terrorist's Toronto connections for the first time.

"He betrayed us," says a former friend who worked with Hammami at a Weston Rd. pizzeria. "For a man to be saying that, Islamically, it is okay to be killing innocent people – and yesterday you fed him bread and welcomed him into your houses – it kind of shatters you."

Five ethnic Somali men disappeared from Scarborough this fall, all friends believed recruited into Al-Shabab. Three are said by family associates to have since phoned home from Somalia. No direct connection to Hammami is known but in the Somali community his Internet postings are notorious.

On a 2008 recruitment video, referring to one of his dead fighters, Hammami says, "We need more like him.

"So if you can encourage more of your children and more of your neighbours, anyone around, to send people like him to this jihad, it would be a great asset for us."

A least 20 young men have left Minneapolis, Minn., for Al-Shabab in the last 18 months. One of them is confirmed to have blown himself up with a car bomb in the Somali port town of Bosasso. Five others are said by relatives to be dead.

Other young men have left from Boston, Columbus, San Diego and Seattle. Others have joined from Australia and the United Kingdom.

The suicide bomber who killed three government ministers and at least 16 others at a graduating ceremony for doctors and engineers last month in Mogadishu was recruited from Denmark.

Hammami himself is said to have been wounded in fighting late last year.

Al-Shabab's stated goals are to take power from the fragile government backed by African Union troops and turn Somalia into an Islamic state friendly to Al Qaeda. Ultimately, its leaders say, the aim is to establish a global Islamic state.

"We are striving to establish the Islaamic Khilaafah from East to West," Hammami writes in an Internet posting of Jan. 8, 2008, "after removing the occupier and killing the apostates."

For Torontonians, al-Shabab recruitment presents another terrifying possibility: A fanatic returns to explode himself in a crowd.

Or as RCMP Commissioner William Elliott put it in October: "The potential follow-on threat is Somali-Canadians who travel to Somalia to fight and then return, imbued with both extremist ideology and the skills necessary to translate it into direct action."

Omar Hammami is 25 years old. He grew up in Daphne, Ala., just outside Mobile.

His mother is Baptist by religion. His father is Shafik Hammami, a Syrian-born engineer with the Alabama transportation department and president of the Islamic Society of Mobile. Reached by phone last week, he refused comment.

Although Hammami grew up Baptist, he converted to Islam in the late 1990s while attending Daphne High School.

"He had tons of friends," fellow student Shellie Brooks told Fox News four months ago, "and of course things changed a bit when he converted because his beliefs changed."

In September 2001, Hammami had just started computer science studies at the University of South Alabama – and been elected head of the Muslim Student Association – when Al Qaeda launched its suicide attacks on the United States.

"It's difficult to believe a Muslim could have done this," he told the campus newspaper at the time.

At the end of 2002, he dropped out of school.

How he spent the next two years is not known but in the fall of 2004 he arrived in Toronto from Ohio, says one of his best friends from the period.

"He was interested in finding a large Muslim community," says the friend, a Somalia-born Torontonian who asks to be identified only as Abdi, because he says he fears Al-Shabab.

Of any Toronto immigrant community, the city's 80,000 Somalis are the most visibly Muslim, he says, especially the women who copiously cover themselves.

Together, Abdi and Hammami took jobs briefly at a dairy distribution company. Afterward they moved to 1 Pizza & Fish & Chips, on Weston Rd. north of Lawrence Ave. W.

"I became very close to him," Abdi says. "We talked a lot about religion. I knew a lot of his beliefs and ideology."

Hammami considered himself a Salafi Muslim, seeking to practise Islam as people did in the seventh and eighth centuries. But he was not extremist, Abdi says.

"The man I knew did not believe in suicide bombings," he says. "He did not believe in carrying weapons and fighting among the Muslims. He did not believe in calling people disbelievers just because they had a dispute with you."

On the other hand, Hammami was "easily irritated," the former friend recalls.

"There was one incident at the pizza place when a Somali singer placed a (concert) poster in the window," he says. "In a split second, (Hammami) removed it.

"To me, that is immaturity, not extremism," Abdi says. "Rather, he should ask permission to the owner saying, `You know, brother, (music and partying) is not according to tradition.'"

At some point early on, at an Islamic conference, Hammami met Sadiyo Mohamed Abdille. He was 20, she was 18.

"His face, it was a bit fanatic," recalls Mohamed Salad, the girl's father, of the day Hammami asked permission to marry her.

Salad despises fanatics. In Somalia, he rose to become an army colonel under military dictator Siad Barre. He was training in San Antonio, Texas, when Barre was ousted in 1991 and with no reason to return home Salad came to Toronto.

"If we had been in Somalia, I would have refused (permission to marry)," says Salad, now a coffee house owner on Lawrence Ave. W. "But I thought, `This is Canada. I am Canadian. Daughters decide what they like.'"

In June 2005, the couple left for Cairo. Hammami told people he wanted to study Islam at Al-Azar University.

That summer the baby was born. In September, Hammami told his wife they were going to Somalia but she balked. She phoned her father, who helped her and the baby return to Toronto.

Speaking for the woman, Scarborough lawyer Faisal Kutty would say only that his client legally separated from Hammami in June 2007, has had no contact with him for more than two years and "has fully co-operated with Canadian intelligence officials on this."

The RCMP, CSIS and Canada Border Services Agency refused comment on the case, other than to say, in the words of a CSIS spokesperson, "We are well aware of the situation in Somalia and its impact on Canada."

Hammami arrived in Mogadishu in late 2005, only to be arrested as a spy by leaders of the Islamic Courts Union, says Abdi, who has been tracking his former friend through personal networks.

But Hammami's credentials checked out. The Union, on its way to controlling much of the south in 2006, assigned him to its youth wing – Al-Shabab. Its leader, Aden Hashi Ayrow, sent him to Raas Kamboni training camp at the Kenyan border.

"He began to rise in the ranks," Abdi says. (A U.S. air strike killed Ayrow on May 1, 2008.)

In October 2007, Hammami appeared, his face covered, on an Al Jazeera TV report, still accessible on YouTube, about Al-Shabab's and Al Qaeda's "common goal." The report identified him as fighter and military instructor "Abu Mansour the American."

In May 2008, he starred in a 31-minute Al-Shabab video, face plainly visible, leading what he called an ambush against invading Ethiopian troops near the south-central city of Baidoa.

"The only reason we are staying here away from our families, away from the cities, away from, you know, ice, candy bars, all these other things, is because we are ready to meet with the enemy," he tells his fighters, presumably English-speaking foreigners like himself.

In April 2009, the ambush video went mainstream. Fox News and other media outlets reported on it. In September, Al-Amriki was identified as Hammami, prompting his indictment in Alabama on terrorism charges.

By then, Hammami had issued an anti-Western diatribe called "The Beginning of the End," still on YouTube, his answer to U.S. President Barack Obama's Cairo speech, "A New Beginning." Human rights, Hammami claimed, go against Islamic traditions such as stoning, cutting off hands and giving a woman no choice but to wear a headscarf.
Also by then, Kenya's Daily Nation had reported that "Abu Mansur al-Meriki" had become No. 2 commander of an Al-Shabab unit of 180 foreign fighters led by Kenyan national Saleh Nabhan. (A U.S. helicopter raid killed Nabhan on Sept. 16 near Barawe.)

In September, an undated Al-Shabab video "At Your Service, Osama," showed Hammami leading military exercises.

Abdi says he heard in October that Hammami had been fighting near the Ethiopian border, and is recovering in hospital from bullet wounds and mental problems.

In Toronto two weeks ago, the Somali Canadian National Council brought together 150 community members to condemn Al-Shabab recruitment in Toronto.

"Until now we've been afraid to speak out," the group's president Abdurahman "Hosh" Jibril said in an interview. "Now we've reached the point of no return."

Kawnayn "U.K." Hussein, host of "Midnimo (Unity)" Thursdays at 10 p.m. on Radio AM530, provided key research for this story.

Maybe the first thing we should do is to tell the congenitally dimwitted US Secretary of Homeland Screwups Security to keep her damned Islamist terrorists on her own side of the border – instead of blaming 9/11 on Canada. That woman is too stupid to breathe unaided. But I guess she’s a good fit for her department.

The second thing “we” should do is find this guy and, quietly, in the nice Canadian way, slit his throat before he returns.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: old medic on July 07, 2010, 10:21:20
T.O. man guilty of trying to send nuclear devices to Iran
The Canadian Press
07 July 2010

Quote
TORONTO — A Toronto man has been found guilty of trying to send devices to Iran that could be used to build nuclear weapons.

A judge today convicted Mahmoud Yadegari of nine of the 10 charges he was facing -- he was acquitted of one count of forgery.

He will be sentenced July 29.

Yadegari, 36, was arrested in April 2009 after a joint eight-week investigation by the RCMP and the U.S. Department of Homeland Security.

He is believed to be the only Canadian ever charged under the United Nations Act.

Yadegari was also charged under the Criminal Code, the Customs Act and the Export and Import Permits Act, as well as provisions in Canada's Nuclear Safety and Control Act.

Some of the offences Yadegari was found guilty of carry maximum sentences of 10 years in prison and $500,000 fines.

The case has received international attention and even the notice of Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.

In February, Ahmadinejad proposed that Yadegari be included in a swap of Iranians in U.S. prisons for three American hikers being held in Tehran.

The Iranian-born businessman used his small company, operated out of his Toronto home, to try to export to Iran via Dubai two of 10 pressure transducers he purchased from a U.S. company.

The hand-sized instruments convert pressure measurements into electrical signals for computers and other electronic devices. They have benign applications but can be used in the enrichment of uranium for nuclear weapons.

Iran insists it is enriching uranium to produce nuclear energy for civilian purposes. But the United States and some European countries accuse Tehran of secretly seeking to build nuclear weapons.

At a news conference following his arrest, police said Yadegari purchased the transducers from a Boston-area company for about $1,100 each. Police said the company alerted authorities.

Yadegari is a Canadian citizen who emigrated from Iran in 1998.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Thucydides on September 12, 2010, 09:03:57
Why they can be radicalized so easily is a key question, and a look at their culture says a lot. More melting pot and far less multiculturalism would defuse this here at home among recent immigrants:

http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/the-looming-documentary-hbos-my-trip-to-al-qaeda/?singlepage=true

Quote
The Looming Documentary: HBO’s My Trip to Al-Qaeda

It isn’t a simple case of “why do they hate us?” as this flawed, but engrossing documentary hosted by Pulitzer-winning author Lawrence Wright explains. It’s more about why they hate their own lives and why they think a supposedly noble death as a suicide bomber is their only escape.
September 12, 2010 - by Christian Toto
Share |

HBO continues to provide a valuable service to subscribers via its original programming slate, filling a glaring gap left by other media outlets.

My Trip to Al-Qaeda, the channel’s new documentary, reveals the face of the Western world’s enemy in a way that will haunt viewers.

The film, inspired by the off-Broadway show of the same name by author turned actor Lawrence Wright, details al-Qaeda’s philosophy in ways that feel fresh and frightening.

Sure, Wright brings a liberal’s gimlet eye for blaming America to the proceedings, something likely advanced by noted Bush-bashing director Alex Gibney (Taxi to the Dark Side).

The film’s far bigger takeaway involves a death culture eager to prey on vulnerable populations.

Al-Qaeda, debuting this month, uses Wright’s one-man show as a vessel to tell an expanded version of the terror group’s roots and realities.

It isn’t a simple case of “why do they hate us?” — an inane question that emerged post-9/11. It’s more about why they hate their own lives and how a supposedly noble death as a suicide bomber is often their only escape.

Gibney wisely opens up the show to include footage taken from Middle Eastern countries, returning to the stage play for occasional close-ups of Wright’s face.

He’s a crack storyteller, and he speaks in an easy cadence that reminds one of actor Owen Wilson. But the messages behind Wright’s stories are hardly comforting.

Wright, the author of the Pulitzer Prize winning book The Looming Tower: Al-Qaeda and the Road to 9/11, has been interviewing radical and reasonable Muslims alike for years. His stories are told in sometimes illogical order, but he keeps the narrative in one piece by showing how each brushes up against al-Qaeda.

He draw out the roots of the modern terrorist movement from Egyptian President Anwar el-Sadat signing a peace treaty with Israel — akin to signing his death warrant, Wright argues — to the Egyptian prisons which tortured those responsible for Sadat’s death.

Consider al-Qaeda leader Ayman Al-Zawahiri, a doctor who spent time in an Egyptian jail for his role in the assassination.

“He entered prison a surgeon. He came out a butcher,” Wright says.

My Trip to Al-Qaeda offers few solutions on how to deal with the terrorist organization, nor does Wright complete thoughts about his own role studying their behavior. How should he respond if he snared an interview with Osama bin Laden himself? Does he stab the militant with the nearest sharp object, or simply record his thoughts like any responsible journalist might?

“I begin to wonder, ‘who am I when I’m talking to al-Qaeda?’” he asks himself.

Wright also co-wrote The Siege, the 1998 thriller that took a prescient look at terrorists attacking on U.S. soil. The movie feared the loss of civil liberties if a terrorist attack hit our shores, and Wright believes that’s precisely what happened after 9/11.

He conflates the degradations at Abu Ghraib with America in toto, and cries in horror to learn the U.S. waterboarded several al-Qaeda members to glean more information about future attacks.

Wright’s observations on the radical Muslim’s mindset are equally chilling. The culture keeps men separated from women, leaving them socially immature.

“It’s not so easy to be a terrorist if your girlfriend won’t let you,” he cracks. The men who follow the most radical brand of Islam “are nearly incapacitated with longing.”

And that hardly begins to describe life in Saudi Arabia, a cauldron for some of today’s most radical minds. Leisure activity doesn’t have a place in society, at least not by the Western world’s standards. Parks and museums are rare, movie houses don’t exist, and the Internet is heavily controlled and monitored.

Shopping offers their only vice, and when a new IKEA opened up in the country 15,000 people lined up to visit — with two people trampled to death in the crush.

That leaves a young population bored, frustrated, and often clinically depressed.

Enter al-Qaeda, a group which “empowers people who have no power,” he notes, a collective with “an engine that runs on the despair of the Muslim world.“

The film’s waning moments spend too much time detailing one FBI agent’s horror over U.S. interrogation techniques, a one-sided cry of rage from Wright that detracts from the main story.

Wright’s on target when he says the U.S. needs to better understand the radical mindset before engaging in a war on terror. But by blasting the Iraq War, excoriating enhanced interrogation techniques, and decrying modest crackdowns on civil liberties, Wright leaves few other tools available to beat back terror cells around the globe.

Anything the Western world does to fight al-Qaeda trips the Muslim “humiliation reflex,” causing them to hate the West even more. But what’s Plan B?

Wright lets loose with platitudes like, “Al Qaeda can’t destroy America. We can only do that to ourselves.” He’s correct — in theory — but a few well placed nuclear suitcases will bring down the country far more quickly than any draconian laws we can put in place to fight terrorism.

My Trip to Al-Qaeda is tough to watch, tougher to turn away from, and an invaluable aid to those who don’t understand the true nature of the enemy we all face.

Christian Toto is a freelance writer and film critic for The Washington Times. His work has appeared in People magazine, MovieMaker Magazine, The Denver Post, The Pittsburgh Tribune-Review, and Scripps Howard News Service. He also contributes movie radio commentary to three stations as well as the nationally syndicated Dennis Miller Show and runs the blog What Would Toto Watch?
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: CallOfDuty on September 12, 2010, 10:04:54
  Here it is for free if you guys want to watch it...................http://quicksilverscreen.com/watch?video=389341
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Thucydides on September 30, 2010, 15:36:35
A look at the Times Square bomber is very revealing, especially in that most of the usual tropes (poverty, illiterate, no hope) are clearly absent.

http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2010/09/027343.php

Quote
The Anatomy of Evil
 
September 29, 2010 Posted by John at 8:58 PM

I think it is safe to say that the number one evil in the world today is Islamic extremism. Today we got a glimpse into that world, courtesy of Faisal Shahzad. Do you remember him? He is the home-grown terrorist who tried to blow up a Nissan Pathfinder in Times Square. He failed, fortunately, like several of his brethren over the last year or two, and therefore faded from memory.

But he is about to be sentenced for the crimes to which he has enthusiastically pled guilty. Earlier today, the federal prosecutors filed their memorandum in support of the government's recommendation of a sentence of life imprisonment. You can read the whole thing here. The prosecutors made several excellent points. First, it is easy to ridicule a terrorist whose plan goes awry, but Shahzad's attempt was no joke. The government carried out a reconstruction of Shahzad's crime in which his detonators worked: "[T]he controlled detonation conducted by the JTTF demonstrated that those effects would have been devastating to the surrounding area." Nearby vehicles would have been blown up, and dozens of pedestrians would have been killed. Shahzad planned his attack to maximize pedestrian casualties, since it is easier to kill people on foot than in cars.

Second, Shahzad is a typical terrorist in that he is intelligent, well-educated, and economically secure. Those who blindly assume that poverty is the cause of terrorism aren't paying attention:

    Far from providing an explanation for his criminal activity, Shahzad's history and characteristics strongly militate in favor of the maximum available sentence. Prior to his decision to attempt to kill and maim scores of unsuspecting men, women and children in the heart of New York City, Shahzad had achieved a degree of academic and professional success in the United States and was living a life with his wife and two young children that was full of promise. Before seeking bomb-making training from a terrorist group in rural Pakistan in 2009, Shahzad had lived in the United States for nearly ten years and had taken advantage of an array of opportunities that this country provided. In his early years here, he was permitted to study at a university in Connecticut on a student visa and obtain a college degree. After graduating from college, a U.S. company hired him and agreed to sponsor him, thereby allowing him to remain in the United States on a working visa. And thereafter, a second U.S. company hired him and continued to sponsor him until he became a naturalized U.S. citizen in April 2009. He was paid competitive salaries at both jobs, which permitted him and his family to live comfortably in the suburbs of Connecticut. Notwithstanding this series of opportunities and accomplishments, and the recent births of his two children, Shahzad knowingly and deliberately chose a different path - a nihilistic path that celebrated conflict and death cloaked in the rhetoric of a distorted interpretation of Islam.

Islamic terrorism has, perhaps, several fathers, but poverty is not among them.

Third, the prosecutors closed their presentation by emphasizing the special and insidious danger that is posed by American Muslim terrorists:

    Shahzad's crimes are uniquely disturbing because they were committed by a United States citizen who received training from a foreign terrorist organization. Foreign terrorist organizations depend upon a wide array of individuals across the world to survive and to accomplish their terrorist objectives. History has demonstrated that some within the networks of terrorist organizations are United States citizens who exploit the benefits of their citizenship to identify vulnerabilities within the United States or align themselves against the United States for the operational advantage of terrorist organizations. These individuals constitute a particularly pernicious threat to the national security of the United States. Under the cover of their U.S. citizenship, these operatives, facilitators, and sympathizers can remain in the United States undetected as well as travel freely around the world on their U.S. passports, gathering information and developing expertise for the benefit of those committed to harming the United States directly and its interests abroad.

    There are few threats to the national security and the way of life in this country greater than a citizen who chooses to serve as an operative for a foreign terrorist organization and attempts to wage an attack inside the United States. Shahzad exploited the freedom and the opportunities provided to him in the United States to further his and the TTP's violent ends. He privately declared his own war on the United States, armed himself with a semi-automatic rifle, and was prepared to open fire on law enforcement agents and officers if they attempted to arrest him. As part of his war, he selected unsuspecting civilians as his targets, irrespective of their race, religion or nationality. After he lit the fuse, he so hoped that his bomb would detonate that he paused to listen for the explosion as he walked to Grand Central terminal, and if he had not been caught, he planned to detonate another bomb in New York City two weeks later. And for all of this, far from expressing remorse or contrition, Shahzad has only evinced a lasting sense of pride in his actions. Accordingly, irrespective of any mandatory sentence required by statute, only one sentence - a sentence of life imprisonment - is sufficient for this defendant.

The death penalty, apparently, is unavailable.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Hamish Seggie on September 30, 2010, 17:44:11
I certainly hope he gets life.....as my wife, daughter, three sisters in law and two neices were near Times Square during that event. In fact, very close to what could be termed "Ground Zero"

Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Rahul on September 30, 2010, 18:51:45
Seriously, I don't get it... one would assume that a person immigrates to Canada because they love Canadian values. Coming here, and then playing the we-take-offense-to-your-culture card is just pathetic. I am an immigrant myself and I know why I came here, I know what I want and most importantly, I know what debts I have to pay back for this privilege.  I am not against multiculturalism, but sometime it just gets out of hand (e.g. happy holidays anyone... and I not even a Christian!).Maybe we should stress more on the values that make a Canadian, than the whole multicultural aspect?
:2c:

Quote
I certainly hope he gets life.....as my wife, daughter, three sisters in law and two neices were near Times Square during that event. In fact, very close to what could be termed "Ground Zero"

Life, with  ahem ...conjugal visits... by other inmates. 


Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: George Wallace on September 30, 2010, 20:06:16
Seriously, I don't get it... one would assume that a person immigrates to Canada because they love Canadian values. Coming here, and then playing the we-take-offense-to-your-culture card is just pathetic. I am an immigrant myself and I know why I came here, I know what I want and most importantly, I know what debts I have to pay back for this privilege.  I am not against multiculturalism, but sometime it just gets out of hand (e.g. happy holidays anyone... and I not even a Christian!).Maybe we should stress more on the values that make a Canadian, than the whole multicultural aspect?
:2c:


I agree with you.  Why try to recreate the problems they are fleeing from/moving away from in Canada?  If they want to do that, then why did they leave their native land?  I assume that they thought that Canada had a better culture, so why would they want to change it to something else?  I just don't get it.  I would hate to think it was solely for the money and social health and welfare handouts.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Thucydides on October 01, 2010, 23:04:24
The issue is these people have come to believe their particular brand of ideology, religion or social values trump the "Classical Liberal" values of Individual liberty, unencumbered ownership and use of property and the Rule of Law. Islamic Jihadis are not the only ones:

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/jamesdelingpole/100056586/eco-fascism-jumps-the-shark-massive-epic-fail/

Quote
Eco-fascism jumps the shark: massive, epic fail!
 
By James Delingpole Environment Last updated: October 1st, 2010

886 Comments Comment on this article

I predicted this morning that No Pressure – Richard Curtis’s spectacularly ill-judged eco-propaganda movie for the 10:10 campaign – would prove a disastrous own goal for the green movement.

But what I could never have imagined was how quickly public disgust – even among greenies – would reach such a pitch that the campaigners would be compelled to withdraw it from the internet.

That, at any rate, is what they keep trying to do – cancelling it whenever it appears on You Tube, pulling it from their campaign website and so on.

Unfortunately their efforts are being frustrated by people on the sceptical side of the climate debate, who keep peskily insisting on reposting the video where everyone can view it. And rightly so. With No Pressure, the environmental movement has revealed the snarling, wicked, homicidal misanthropy beneath its cloak of gentle, bunny-hugging righteousness.

I don’t think any of us will ever be able to look at another Richard Curtis movie in quite the same way ever again. It may even be that we will now never, ever be able to enjoy another episode of the Vicar of Dibley, because all we’ll be able to think about is Dawn French with a Panzerfaust beneath her cassock ready to blast off the heads of any members of her congregation who don’t believe in Man Made Global Warming. What a sad day this is for us all.

PS If you want to register your disgust, a commenter from the previous blog Reconstruct has some helpful suggestions:

    Now you’ve seen the video, prepare not to be surprised that your taxes helped pay for it.

    The 10:10 Campaign is supported by:
    ActionAid (Govt of UK 2nd largest funder in 2009);
    The Carbon Trust (surely #1 on the list of quangos-to-go);
    The Energy Saving Trust.

    Be not surprised that The Guardian is their ‘media partner’.

    On the other hand, if you’re outraged by the video, you might be interested to know that they also have a small number of genuine commercial sponsors: O2, Sony and Kyocera all have helped fund the 10:10 Campaign.

    I suggest that the first thing to do is to make your outrage known to O2, Sony and Kyocera, suggesting that their commercial interests might not be furthered by funding murderous nazi will-fulfillment propaganda.

UPDATE:

Here’s the excuse posted by the 10:10 organisers on the Guardian website.

    Sorry.
    Today we put up a mini-movie about 10:10 and climate change called ‘No Pressure’.

    With climate change becoming increasingly threatening, and decreasingly talked about in the media, we wanted to find a way to bring this critical issue back into the headlines whilst making people laugh. We were therefore delighted when Britain’s leading comedy writer, Richard Curtis – writer of Blackadder, Four Weddings, Notting Hill and many others – agreed to write a short film for the 10:10 campaign. Many people found the resulting film extremely funny, but unfortunately some didn’t and we sincerely apologise to anybody we have offended.

    As a result of these concerns we’ve taken it off our website.

    We’d like to thank the 50+ film professionals and 40+ actors and extras and who gave their time and equipment to the film for free. We greatly value your contributions and the tremendous enthusiasm and professionalism you brought to the project.

    At 10:10 we’re all about trying new and creative ways of getting people to take action on climate change. Unfortunately in this instance we missed the mark. Oh well, we live and learn.

    Onwards and upwards,

click on the link to watch the video and see for yourself
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: HavokFour on October 02, 2010, 22:10:47
Seriously, I don't get it... one would assume that a person immigrates to Canada because they love Canadian values. Coming here, and then playing the we-take-offense-to-your-culture card is just pathetic. I am an immigrant myself and I know why I came here, I know what I want and most importantly, I know what debts I have to pay back for this privilege.  I am not against multiculturalism, but sometime it just gets out of hand (e.g. happy holidays anyone... and I not even a Christian!).Maybe we should stress more on the values that make a Canadian, than the whole multicultural aspect?
:2c:

Never understood it myself. As the son of a refugee I never once heard my father (Dominican Republic) make any such claim in the short amount of time I knew him. The second he landed on US soil he became your stereotypical gun toting, God fairing American. A very successful one too, he made quite a name for himself in both Goya Foods, Inc and The Coca-Cola Company.

Perhaps it is due to the rise in Liberalism around the world?

I agree with you.  Why try to recreate the problems they are fleeing from/moving away from in Canada?  If they want to do that, then why did they leave their native land?  I assume that they thought that Canada had a better culture, so why would they want to change it to something else?  I just don't get it.  I would hate to think it was solely for the money and social health and welfare handouts.

While I am positive the majority of immigrants come here to become Canadians and to integrate into our society, there is still an large number that unfortunately have no other interest than to leech off Canadian Citizens.

Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: George Wallace on February 03, 2011, 15:46:13
Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.

Quote
USA / Justice

Muslim-American terrorism study: Not many incidents, but it only takes one

By Brad Knickerbocker, Staff writer / February 2, 2011 
The Christian Science Monitor


LINK  (http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Justice/2011/0202/Muslim-American-terrorism-study-Not-many-incidents-but-it-only-takes-one)

Since 9/11, the number of Muslim-American terrorism suspects and perpetrators has averaged about 16 a year. Last year was slightly higher, but way down from 2009.

In the years since the terrorist attacks of 9/11, the number of Muslim-American terrorism suspects and perpetrators has averaged about 16 per year. In 2010, according to a new report, the total was 20.

That was a sharp drop from 2009, when 47 Muslim-Americans committed or were arrested for terrorist crimes, according to the Triangle Center on Terrorism and Homeland Security in Durham, N.C., a consortium among Duke University, the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, and RTI International.

But 2009 likely was an aberration – the year when a group of 17 Somali-Americans joined Al Shabab, the Islamist insurgent movement linked to Al Qaeda. The number of individual Muslim-Americans plotting against targets in the United States also dropped by half, from 18 in 2009 to 10 in 2010.

“Of course, even a single terrorist plot is too many,” says Charles Kurzman, professor of sociology at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill and the report’s author. “But this trend offers a challenge for the American public: If we ratchet up our security concerns when the rate of terrorism rises, should we ratchet down our concerns when it falls?”

That is certainly not the case for federal, state, and local law enforcement authorities tasked with preventing domestic terrorist attacks.

While most attacks have been disrupted or failed on their own, 11 attacks since 9/11 have resulted in 33 deaths – including 13 people killed by Nidal Hasan at Fort Hood, Tex., in 2009. The Times Square bombing attempt by Pakistan-born Faisal Shahzad could have brought the total deaths due to domestic terror attacks much higher if the bomb had not failed to explode when ignited.

List of 2010 plots

According to professor Mr. Kurzman’s analysis, 75 percent of the Muslim-Americans engaged in terrorist plots in 2010 were disrupted in an early stage of planning.

“This is consistent with the pattern of disruption since 9/11,” he writes, when 102 of 161 plots – 63 percent – were disrupted at an early stage of planning.

On Tuesday, Colleen LaRose – the Philadelphia woman who called herself “Jihad Jane” – pleaded guilty to four federal charges (http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Latest-News-Wires/2011/0201/Jihad-Jane-admits-to-conspiracy-to-support-terrorists-murder), including conspiracy to murder a foreign target (Swedish cartoonist Lars Vilks, who had depicted the Islamic prophet Muhammad in ways that many Muslims found offensive), conspiracy to support terrorists, and lying to the FBI.

Over the past five years or so, about 30 American Muslim extremists have been caught up in sting operations, according to Mark Pitcavage, director of investigative research at the Anti-Defamation League.

Most recently, that includes Antonio Martinez (a Muslim convert who had changed his name to Muhammad Hussain), who attempted to detonate a car bomb at a US Army recruitment center in Maryland, and Somalia-born Mohamed Osman Mohamud (http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2010/1128/Mohamed-Osman-Mohamud-The-Somali-teen-who-wanted-to-bomb-Portland), arrested in December for allegedly plotting to explode a bomb at the Pioneer Courthouse Square in Portland, Ore., where thousands of families had gathered for the traditional Christmas tree lighting.

Other cases involved plotting to attack synagogues in the Bronx, attempting to funnel money to a terrorist training camp in Afghanistan, and plotting to carry out a coordinated bombing attack on Metrorail stations (http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Justice/2010/1027/Feds-nab-man-allegedly-plotting-to-bomb-D.C.-Metro-stations) in suburban Virginia near Washington.

“Many of these extremists have a passionate desire to act on behalf of their cause, but in a practical sense have a limited ability,” says Mr. Pitcavage. “Part of this is due to their selection of tactics, which often tend towards large and spectacular attacks that are difficult to carry out.”

“Part of this is due to an inability on their part to obtain or construct weapons or explosives on their own,” he writes in an e-mail. “Thus when they encounter someone purporting to be able to supply such resources [including undercover FBI agents], they may well be receptive.”

Targeting the 'lone wolf'

It’s often pointed out that security agencies need to prevent all attempted attacks in order to be successful but that terrorists need to succeed just once. Of particular concern are home-grown “lone wolf” attackers, seen as expendable to terrorist groups overseas.

For this reason, sting operations frequently are the technique of choice in heading off such attacks.

“It does send a message that the government isn’t just leaving the barn door open like they were before 9/11, that it will have some kind of either limiting or deterrent impact on those who don’t come under the scrutiny of authority,” says Brian Levin, director of the Center for the Study of Hate & Extremism at California State University, San Bernardino.

As Kurzman at the University of North Carolina points out, sting operations often begin with tips from the Muslim-American community itself – the largest single source of initial information, according to his research.

IN PICTURES: American Jihadis (http://www.csmonitor.com/CSM-Photo-Galleries/Lists/American-Jihadis)





More on LINK  (http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Justice/2011/0202/Muslim-American-terrorism-study-Not-many-incidents-but-it-only-takes-one)
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: milnews.ca on March 15, 2011, 13:57:15
This (http://bit.ly/gCSMhW) from the RCMP:
Quote
A four-year RCMP national security criminal investigation, known as Project Darken, has resulted in arrest warrants being issued for two former Winnipeg residents on terrorism-related charges.

RCMP investigators in Winnipeg have compiled evidence that two Canadian citizens, Maiwand Yar and Ferid Ahmed Imam, conspired to travel to Pakistan for terrorist training, with plans to later join the insurgency against NATO forces in Afghanistan.

Ferid Ahmed Imam, age 30, is being sought on charges of instructing to carry out terrorist activity and conspiracy to participate in activity of a terrorist group.

Maiwand Yar, age 27, is being sought on charges of conspiracy to participate in activity of a terrorist group and participation in activity of a terrorist group.

Both individuals are known to have traveled to Pakistan in March 2007. The current whereabouts of Maiwand Yar and Ferid Imam are unknown. These charges are being laid in absentia and Canada-wide arrest warrants have been issued for both men.

“These warrants are the result of a lengthy and thorough national security criminal investigation involving key partners throughout Canada and the U.S.,” said Assistant Commissioner Bill Robinson, Commanding Officer of “D” Division RCMP. “We are deeply committed to our efforts aimed at countering terrorism. This investigation targets criminal activity and not specific communities or groups.”

Project Darken was conducted by the RCMP National Security Enforcement Section in Winnipeg with the cooperation of partners at the Canadian Security Intelligence Service, Canada Border Services Agency, U.S. Federal Bureau of Investigation, and international law enforcement agencies.

(....)

The public is encouraged to contact the RCMP National Security tip line at 1-800-420-5805 to report information on the whereabouts of Maiwand Yar and Ferid Imam, or suspicious activities that could pose any threat to Canada’s national security.

More from CBC.ca (via Yahoo) here (http://ca.news.yahoo.com/terrorism-related-charges-laid-winnipeg-20110315-051813-158.html), and a bit of backstory from October of last year here (http://ca.news.yahoo.com/3-man-students-target-global-search.html).

Edited to add attached statement from CSIS Prairie Region DG.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: milnews.ca on March 15, 2011, 17:17:35
A bit more detail from the FBI (http://1.usa.gov/fkvRj2) on one of the chaps:
Quote
A superseding indictment was unsealed in Brooklyn federal court yesterday charging Ferid Imam, also known as "Yousef," with providing and conspiring to provide material support to al Qaeda, aiding and abetting the terrorist training of Najibullah Zazi, Zarein Ahmedzay, and Adis Medunjanin, and using a destructive device in furtherance of crimes of violence.1 The indictment was unsealed in coordination with Canadian authorities, who earlier today announced terrorism charges against Imam, who is a Canadian citizen. According to the Eastern District indictment, Imam aided and abetted Zazi, Ahmedzay, and Medunjanin's receipt of military-type training from al Qaeda when the three men traveled to Pakistan in 2008. Zazi, Ahmedzay, and Medunjanin subsequently returned to the United States to carry out a plot to detonate improvised explosive devices on behalf of al Qaeda. This plot was uncovered and disrupted by law enforcement authorities in September 2009. Zazi pleaded guilty to his role in the plot on February 22, 2010; Ahmedzay similarly pleaded guilty on April 23, 2010.

If convicted of the crimes in the indictment, Imam faces between 30 years' and life imprisonment.

The charges were announced by Loretta E. Lynch, United States Attorney for the Eastern District of New York, Janice K. Fedarcyk, Assistant Director-in-Charge, Federal Bureau of Investigation, New York Field Office, and Raymond W. Kelly, Commissioner, New York City Police Department.

"As today's charges demonstrate, we will not rest in our pursuit of those responsible for plotting terrorist attacks," stated United States Attorney Lynch. Ms. Lynch expressed her gratitude to the law enforcement personnel, both American and Canadian, who took part in the investigation.

"The three men already charged with conspiring to set off bombs in New York were also charged with receiving overseas training to accomplish that nefarious goal. Among other alleged acts of terrorism, Ferid Imam helped them get that training. Today's charges are an important step in bringing to justice all the conspirators," said FBI New York Assistant Director-in-Charge Fedarcyk ....
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Thucydides on March 16, 2011, 00:03:29
An ominous prediction:

http://pajamasmedia.com/michaelledeen/2011/03/14/what-if-they-are-already-here/?print=1

Quote
What if They Are Already Here?

Posted By Michael Ledeen On March 14, 2011 @ 9:21 pm In Uncategorized | 45 Comments

A very long time ago — back in the last century, when I worked for men like Alexander Haig and Ronald Reagan — the United States government knew of at least three terrorist sleeper cells on our soil.  The most famous of these was  in St. Louis, Missouri, where Zeit Isa, a member of the Abu Nidal organization — one of the most lethal of that time — was quietly running a convenience store.  He was a Palestinian who had gone to Puerto Rico and married a local woman (even though he already had a wife in the old country).  They produced two girls, and one night the older one came home late and her father stabbed her to death as her mother held her down.  The FBI got the whole thing on audio tape.

This led to the trial of 4 members [1] of the group in the mid-nineties, which exposed the Abu Nidal sleeper network to public view.  Many of the network, realizing that it had been penetrated by the FBI, left the United States, but Isa and his wife spent the rest of their lives in a federal prison.

You’d have to think that if there were three sleeper cells in America in the eighties, there must be even more now, and I’m sure that’s correct. Dave Gaubatz, who’s spent years studying this nasty business, says so quite categorically [2], and, like other counterterrorist experts, sounds surprised none of the terror underground has emerged to kill Americans.

The government doesn’t ever want to talk about such things, but every so often we get to look through a dark windowpane, as for example the very disturbing story [3] earlier this year about an Iranian book that turned up in the Arizona desert.  It was a hymn to martyrs — suicide killers.  If you read the whole thing, you’ll probably break into a sweat.  Try this:

“At this time, DHS does not have any credible information on terrorist groups operating along the Southwest border,” a Department of Homeland Security [4] official said in a statement.”  But we’re not talking about groups operating along the border;  we’re talking about terrorists inside the United States.  Those intended-to-be-reassuring words from DHS carefully beg the central question.  And the more you read, the worse it gets:

    (FBI Director Robert) Mueller testified before the House Appropriations Committee in March 2005 that “there are individuals from countries with known Al Qaeda [5] connections who are changing their Islamic surnames to Hispanic-sounding names and obtaining false Hispanic identities, learning to speak Spanish and pretending to be Hispanic.”

    Just last year, the Department of Homeland Security had in custody thousands of detainees from Afghanistan [6], Egypt, Iraq [7], Iran, Pakistan [8], Saudi Arabia [9] and Yemen [10]. U.S. Border Patrol statistics indicate that there were 108,025 OTMs (“Other Than Mexicans”) detained in 2006, compared to 165,178 in 2005 and 44,614 in 2004.

So we’ve got thousands (!) of dangerous Middle Easterners in prison (not counting the many “diplomatic personnel” we’ve kicked out of the country, like those Iranians working at the UN caught photographing subway stations and bridges in the middle of the night), and surely we do not have them all.  Some of them must have burrowed in.  A friend in the FBI told me, in the nineties, that they had identified sleeper terrorists working as doctors, dentists, and attorneys.  They had excellent “cover,” in short, they were not what most people imagine (crazed fanatics running around with scimitars shouting short phrases in Arabic and praying in airports on their little carpets).

And then there is the frightening story of a possible fifth terrorist team on 9/11.  This is documented by a Wikileaks classified cable given to the London Telegraph [11].

It tells of a 3-man team of Qataris who flew from London to the United States, staked out some targets in New York and Washington, and then went to southern California.  They were scheduled on the American Airlines plane that hit the Pentagon (the one on which Barbara Olson was murdered), but, at the last minute, they switched flights and left the country.

So they’ve come here.  Some have installed themselves among us, others have passed through.  But doubt not that there are terrorists waiting for the “go code” to attack.  Indeed, we often find them in the trunks of nice cars [12] crossing our borders.

We’re at war, but our leaders are forever forbidding us to even say it.  Yet denial will only make things worse, offering more opportunities to our would-be killers.  You know, the ones that don’t officially exist.  Except they always have.

Article printed from Faster, Please!: http://pajamasmedia.com/michaelledeen

URL to article: http://pajamasmedia.com/michaelledeen/2011/03/14/what-if-they-are-already-here/

URLs in this post:

[1] the trial of 4 members: http://articles.latimes.com/1993-04-02/news/mn-18130_1_abu-nidal

[2] says so quite categorically: http://www.familysecuritymatters.org/publications/id.8528/pub_detail.asp

[3] very disturbing story: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/01/27/iranian-book-celebrating-suicide-bombers-arizona-desert/

[4] Homeland Security: http://www.foxnews.com/topics/politics/national-security.htm#r_src=ramp

[5] Al Qaeda: http://www.foxnews.com/topics/politics/iraq/al-qaeda.htm#r_src=ramp

[6] Afghanistan: http://www.foxnews.com/topics/politics/afghanistan.htm#r_src=ramp

[7] Iraq: http://www.foxnews.com/topics/politics/supplemental-spending.htm#r_src=ramp

[8] Pakistan: http://www.foxnews.com/topics/politics/pakistan.htm#r_src=ramp

[9] Saudi Arabia: http://www.foxnews.com/topics/politics/saudi-arabia.htm#r_src=ramp

[10] Yemen: http://www.foxnews.com/topics/yemen-al-qaeda.htm#r_src=ramp

[11] the London Telegraph: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/wikileaks/8297848/WikiLeaks-Did-al-Qaeda-plot-fifth-attack-on-911.html

[12] in the trunks of nice cars: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1351385/Controversial-Muslim-cleric-caught-smuggled-U-S-Mexico-border.html
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Thucydides on March 26, 2011, 20:58:45
"They" are also indulging in info ops:

http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/anti-american-foreign-donors-are-paying-off-our-profs-shouldnt-we-address-this/?print=1

Quote
Anti-American, Foreign Donors Are Paying Off Our Profs. Shouldn’t We Address This?
Posted By Clarice Feldman On March 25, 2011 @ 12:31 pm In Uncategorized | 32 Comments

When educators who are identified as professors from prestigious universities testify before Congress, write op-eds, and appear on public or media sponsored panels, most readers and listeners value their words more than those of others less credentialed. Perhaps this is especially the case when the subject is foreign affairs, which — without warrant — is generally treated as an arcane subject requiring considerable specialized study to fully comprehend.

For this reason, concern is growing that our universities, especially those highly regarded, have been receiving very large sums of cash from abroad, often from countries or citizens of countries which hold positions antithetical to our interests or engage in conduct shocking to our values. This matter is receiving critical attention from both sides of the political spectrum.

The fact of these large gifts is no secret. 20 USC 1011-Sec. 1011f requires colleges and universities to disclose foreign donations and contracts valued at $250,000 or more, and the Department of Education annually posts them online on its website.

Today, the Chronicle of Higher Education published an article by Scott Carlson on the subject [1] (subscription only). Reviewing the latest such report from the DOE (the next is due next month), he notes:

Over the past 10 years, gifts from and contracts with governments, companies, and individuals [in the Middle East] have amounted to more than $600 million.

Qatar is the largest contributor, donating almost half of the total. It is followed by Saudi Arabia, which donated $77 million. I suspect that with the downturn in the American economy these large foreign gifts are being more aggressively sought out and constitute a larger and larger portion of university revenues.

How much of this is known to alumni and students is unclear. If you recall, the videos of the NPR fundraisers (both former university fundraisers) and the make-believe Arabs revealed that they were very willing to do what they could to keep the proposed gift anonymous. They said they had done this before, and even mentioned an $80 million dollar gift — apparently from a domestic giver with a feminist bent — to a number of universities which had successfully been kept under wraps by all the schools concerned. I suspect that a great deal of the foreign funding, though reported as the law requires to the federal government, may not be fully known in university communities.

In any event, word is getting out. As Carlson observes, the initial complaints came from conservatives and those who support Israel, but now the left — which is expressing concern about human rights issues — has joined in. Some of the most well-publicized of these disputes here and in the UK involve unseemly conduct on the part of university officials, but incidents which undermine scholarship are not as well-known.

We may know of Lawrence Tech’s grant of a doctorate to Bahrain’s prime minister, who in turn donated $3 million to the university; or we may know of the scandal at the London School of Economics — the university trained Libyan officials and granted an apparently unearned doctorate to one of the dictator’s sons. (Subsequently, it was learned that Michigan State was also training Gaddafi’s men, and prominent Harvard professors — through a public relations firm of their creation, Monitor — were hiring professors in part to burnish the dictator’s image.) However, although these incidents have had higher profiles, I believe these acts are far less insidious and detrimental to our interests and to the universities’ basic functions than is so much else that this largesse creates on a regular, lower-profile basis.

First, these gifts cannot but distort the research and classroom work of a university. Professors, universities, and the entire university food chain (graduate students, assistant professors, students) all know who has money, and naturally gravitate to those studies and projects for which there is funding. If there is no money to support research in a given area, there can be no fellowships or grants to sustain the scholarship. So teachers read, teach, and write about topics for which funding is available, and students make such topics the object of their study. Time is a scarce resource even in the groves of academe, and smart people do not wish to waste theirs pursuing subjects for which there will be no ability to finance and publicize their endeavors.

Second, can one doubt that there will be a tendency not to offend the donors? It’s possible that Stephen Walt (professor of international relations at Harvard’s Kennedy School of Government), a man who was hired to tart up Gaddafi in the public view, might have written this drivel [2] on his own without the money, but one doubts it despite his strong anti-Israel, pro-Arab views:

First, although Libya is far from a democracy, it also doesn’t feel like other police states that I have visited. I caught no whiff of an omnipresent security service — which is not to say that they aren’t there — and there were fewer police or military personnel on the streets than one saw in Franco’s Spain. The Libyans with whom I spoke were open and candid and gave no sign of being worried about being overheard or reported or anything like that. The TV in my hotel room featured 50+ channels, including all the normal news services (BBC World Service, CNN, MSNBC, Bloomberg, Al Jazeera, etc.) along with contemporary U.S. sitcoms like “2-1/2 Men,” shows like “Desperate Housewives,” assorted movies, and one of the various “CSI” clones. A colleague on the trip told me that many ordinary Libyans have satellite dishes and that the government doesn’t interfere with transmissions. I tried visiting various political websites from my hotel room and had no problems, although other human rights groups report that Libya does engage in selective filtering of some political websites critical of the regime.  It is also a crime to criticize Qaddafi himself, the government’s past human rights record is disturbing at best, and the press in Libya is almost entirely government-controlled.  Nonetheless, Libya appears to be more open than contemporary Iran or China and the overall atmosphere seemed far less oppressive than most places I visited in the old Warsaw Pact.

Benjamin R. Barber, then a senior fellow at Demos (a New York-based think tank focused on the theory and practice of democracy) and now at Rutgers, was also hired by the Harvard-related group to buff up the Libyans. He wrote this bit of treacle [3]:

Written off not long ago as an implacable despot, Gaddafi is a complex and adaptive thinker as well as an efficient, if laid-back, autocrat. Unlike almost any other Arab ruler, he has exhibited an extraordinary capacity to rethink his country’s role in a changed and changing world.

On the other hand, Joseph Nye of Harvard’s Kennedy School didn’t act as a Gaddafi promoter. Upon returning from a trip to Libya, he disclosed his consulting arrangement with Monitor and reported critically on what he saw there [4]. It could well be that the funders — like those who fund two Georgetown University centers run by Professors John L. Esposito and Michael Hudson, two men instinctively critical of the U.S. and Israel and indulgent of the Arabs — are often merely putting money in the pockets of those who already take their side, and are not buying their approval. Mutual attraction, not prostitution, may explain the grants on one side and the product on the other.

Still, by funding these professors the donors are assuring that these professors gain power and prominence within their university and the academic community.

This problem is not confined to foreign gifts. Those who follow the latest politically popular trends — like global warming — get funded by the government; those academics skeptical of it do not. Similarly, when the Annenberg Foundation funds went from that foundation, through Obama, to Bill Ayers [5], Ayers’ power within the University of Illinois undoubtedly increased, along with his sway in the national educational establishment itself. Still, the notion of foreign governments, especially those who pose national security issues for this nation, buying up or paying off like-minded professors or directing undue scholarship towards a benign reading of matters in their interest is especially troubling.

Aside from monitoring what information is made public, is there anything else that can be done? I think a first step would be for universities to adopt a code of conduct, requiring professors who speak publicly before Congress, in the media, and before public audiences to disclose any foreign funding of which they are the recipients. This hardly seems to be asking a great deal. I believe it is a policy in ordinary use respecting scientific research — I can’t see why this policy merits objection from academia. Increasingly the public is used to and demanding transparency in all our institutions — why should universities and those who run them and work there be exempt? They have a unique ability to shape public opinion, and with that comes a special obligation to be candid about who’s footing the bills.

Article printed from Pajamas Media: http://pajamasmedia.com

URL to article: http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/anti-american-foreign-donors-are-paying-off-our-profs-shouldnt-we-address-this/

URLs in this post:

[1] published an article by Scott Carlson on the subject: http://chronicle.com/article/Mideast-Unrest-Reawakens/126817/
[2] this drivel: http://walt.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2010/01/18/the_shores_of_tripoli
[3] this bit of treacle: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/08/14/AR2007081401328.html
[4] reported critically on what he saw there: http://www.tnr.com/article/85011/joseph-nye-qaddafi-libya-tnr
[5] when the Annenberg Foundation funds went from that foundation, through Obama, to Bill Ayers: http://pajamasmedia.com../../../../../blog/can-obama-survive-the-annenberg-cover-up/
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Thucydides on April 10, 2011, 02:19:31
How to guide of what to look for. Remember, if seconds count, the police are minutes away....

http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/20110406-how-tell-if-your-neighbor-bombmaker

Quote
How to Tell if Your Neighbor is a Bombmaker
April 7, 2011 | 0855 GMT

How to Tell if Your Neighbor is a Bombmaker

By Scott Stewart

Al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula (AQAP) released the fifth edition of its English-language jihadist magazine “Inspire” on March 30. AQAP publishes this magazine with the stated intent of radicalizing English-speaking Muslims and encouraging them to engage in jihadist militant activity. Since its inception, Inspire magazine has also advocated the concept that jihadists living in the West should conduct attacks there, rather than traveling to places like Pakistan or Yemen, since such travel can bring them to the attention of the authorities before they can conduct attacks, and AQAP views attacking in the West as “striking at the heart of the unbelievers.”

To further promote this concept, each edition of Inspire magazine has a section called “Open Source Jihad,” which is intended to equip aspiring jihadist attackers with the tools they need to conduct attacks without traveling to jihadist training camps. The Open Source Jihad sections in past editions have contained articles such as the pictorial guide with instructions titled “Make a Bomb in the Kitchen of Your Mom” that appeared in the first edition.

In this latest edition of Inspire there are at least three places where AQAP encourages jihadists to conduct “lone wolf” attacks rather than coordinate with others due to the security risks inherent in such collaboration (several jihadist plots have been thwarted when would-be attackers have approached government informants looking for assistance). In recent years there have been a number of lone wolf attacks inside the United States, such as the June 2009 shooting at an armed forces recruiting center in Little Rock, Ark.; the November 2009 Fort Hood shooting; and the failed bombing attack in New York’s Times Square in May 2010. Of course, the lone wolf phenomena is not just confined to the United States, as evidenced by such incidents as the March 2 shooting attack against U.S. military personnel in Frankfurt, Germany.

In the past, STRATFOR has examined the challenges that lone wolf assailants and small, insulated cells — what we call grassroots jihadists — present to law enforcement and intelligence agencies. We have also discussed the fact that, in many cases, grassroots defenders such as local police officers can be a more effective defense against grassroots attackers than centralized federal agencies.

But local federal agents and local police officers are not the only grassroots defenders who can be effective in detecting lone wolves and small cells before they are able to launch an attack. Many of the steps required to conduct a terrorist attack are undertaken in a manner that makes the actions visible to any outside observer. It is at these junctures in the terrorist attack cycle that people practicing good situational awareness can detect these attack steps — not only to avoid the danger themselves, but also to alert the authorities to the suspicious activity.

Detecting grassroots operatives can be difficult, but it is possible if observers focus not only on the “who” aspect of a terrorist attack but also the “how” — that is, those activities that indicate an attack is in the works. In the past we’ve talked in some detail about detecting preoperational surveillance as part of this focus on the “how.” Now, we would like to focus on detecting another element of the “how” of terrorism and discuss the ways one can detect signs of improvised-explosives preparation — in other words, how to tell if your neighbor is a bombmaker.

IEDs and Explosive Mixtures

In the 11th edition of “Sada al-Malahim,” AQAP’s Arabic-language online jihadist magazine, Nasir al-Wahayshi noted that jihadists “don’t need to conduct a big effort or spend a lot of money to manufacture 10 grams of explosive material” and that they should not “waste a long time finding the materials, because you can find all these in your mother’s kitchen, or readily at hand or in any city you are in.” Al-Wahayshi is right. It truly is not difficult for a knowledgeable individual to construct improvised explosives from a wide range of household chemicals like peroxide and acetone or chlorine and brake fluid.

It is important to recognize that when we say an explosive mixture or an explosive device is “improvised,” the improvised nature of that mixture or device does not automatically mean that the end product is going to be ineffective or amateurish. Like an improvised John Coltrane saxophone solo, some improvised explosive devices can be highly-crafted and very deadly works of art. Now, that said, even proficient bombmakers are going to conduct certain activities that will allow their intent to be discerned by an outside observer — and amateurish bombmakers are even easier to spot if one knows what to look for.

In an effort to make bombmaking activity clandestine, explosive mixtures and device components are often manufactured in rented houses, apartments or hotel rooms. We have seen this behavior in past cases, like the December 1999 incident in which the so-called “Millennium Bomber” Ahmed Ressam and an accomplice set up a crude bombmaking factory in a hotel room in Vancouver, British Colombia. More recently, Najibullah Zazi, who was arrested in September 2009, was charged with attempting to manufacture the improvised explosive mixture tri-acetone tri-peroxide (TATP) in a Denver hotel room. In September 2010, a suspected lone wolf assailant in Copenhagen, accidentally detonated an explosive device he was constructing in a hotel. Danish authorities believe the device was intended for an attack on the Jyllands-Posten newspaper, which was targeted because of its involvement in publishing the controversial cartoons featuring the Prophet Mohammed.

Similar to clandestine methamphetamine labs (which are also frequently set up in rental properties or hotel rooms), makeshift bombmaking operations frequently utilize volatile substances that are used in everyday life. Chemicals such as acetone, a common nail polish remover, and peroxide, commonly used in bleaching hair, can be found in most grocery, beauty, drug and convenience stores. Fertilizers, the main component of the bombs used in the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing and the 1993 World Trade Center attack, can be found in large volumes on farms or in farm supply stores in rural communities.

However, the quantities of these chemicals required to manufacture explosives is far in excess of that required to remove nail polish or bleach hair. Because of this, hotel staff, landlords and neighbors can fairly easily notice signs that someone in their midst is operating a makeshift bombmaking laboratory. They should be suspicious, for example, if a new tenant moves several bags of fertilizer into an apartment in the middle of a city, or if a person brings in gallons of acetone, peroxide or sulfuric or nitric acid. Furthermore, in addition to chemicals, bombmakers also utilize laboratory implements such as beakers, scales, protective gloves and masks — things not normally found in a hotel room or residence.

Additionally, although electronic devices such as cell phones or wristwatches may not seem unusual in the context of a hotel room or apartment, signs that such devices have been disassembled or modified should raise a red flag, as these devices are commonly used as initiators for improvised explosive devices. There are also certain items that are less commonly used in household applications but that are frequently used in bombmaking, things like nitric or sulfuric acid, metal powders such as aluminum, magnesium and ferric oxide, and large quantities of sodium carbonate — commonly purchased in 25-pound bags. Large containers of methyl alcohol, used to stabilize nitroglycerine, is another item that is unusual in a residential or hotel setting and that is a likely signal that a bombmaker is present.

Fumes from the chemical reactions are another telltale sign of bombmaking activity. Depending on the size of the batch being concocted, the noxious fumes from an improvised explosive mixture can bleach walls and curtains and, as was the case for the July 2005 London attackers, even the bombmakers’ hair. The fumes can even waft outside of the lab and be detected by neighbors in the vicinity. Spatter from the mixing of ingredients like nitric acid leaves distinctive marks, which are another way for hotel staff or landlords to recognize that something is amiss. Additionally, rented properties used for such activity rarely look as if they are lived in. They frequently lack furniture and have makeshift window coverings instead of drapes. Properties where bomb laboratories are found also usually have no mail delivery, sit for long periods without being occupied and are occupied by people who come and go erratically at odd hours and are often seen carrying strange things such as containers of chemicals.

The perpetrators of the 1993 World Trade Center bombing manufactured the components for the truck bomb used in that attack in a rented apartment in Jersey City, N.J. The process of cooking the nitroglycerine used in the booster charges and the urea nitrate used in the main explosive charge created such strong chemical fumes that some of the paint on the walls was changed from white to blue and metal doorknobs and hinges inside of the apartment were visibly corroded. The bombmakers also flushed some of the excess chemicals down the toilet, spilling some of them on the bathroom floor and leaving acidic burn marks. The conspirators also spilled chemicals on the floor in other places, on the walls of the apartment, on their clothing and on other items, leaving plenty of trace evidence for investigators to find after the attack.

Given the caustic nature of the ingredients used to make homemade explosive mixtures — chemicals that can burn floors and corrode metal — and the very touchy chemical reactions required to make things like nitroglycerin and TATP, making homemade explosives can be one of the most dangerous aspects of planning an attack. Indeed, Hamas militants refer to TATP as “the Mother of Satan” because of its volatility and propensity to either severely burn or kill bombmakers if they lose control of the chemical reaction required to manufacture it.

In January 1995, an apartment in Manila, Philippines, caught fire when the bombmaker in the 1993 World Trade Center attack, Abdel Basit (aka Ramzi Yousef), lost control of the reaction in a batch of TATP he was brewing for his planned attack against a number of U.S. airliners flying over the Pacific Ocean — an operation he had nicknamed Bojinka. Because of the fire, authorities were able to arrest two of Basit’s co-conspirators and unravel Bojinka and several other attack plots against targets like Pope John Paul II and U.S. President Bill Clinton. Basit himself fled to Pakistan, where he was apprehended a short time later. This case serves to highlight the dangers presented by these labs to people in the vicinity — especially in a hotel or apartment building.

Another form of behavior that provides an opportunity to spot a bombmaker is testing. A professional bombmaker will try out his improvised mixtures and components, like improvised blasting caps, to ensure that they are functioning properly and that the completed device will therefore be viable. Such testing will involve burning or detonating small quantities of the explosive mixture, or actually exploding the blasting cap. The testing of small components may happen in a backyard, but the testing of larger quantities will often be done at a more remote place. Therefore, any signs of explosions in remote places like parks and national forests should be immediately reported to authorities.

Obviously, not every container of nitric acid spotted or small explosion heard will be absolute confirmation of bombmaking activity, but reporting such incidents to the authorities will give them an opportunity to investigate and determine whether the incidents are indeed innocuous. In an era when the threat of attack comes from increasingly diffuse sources, a good defense requires more eyes and ears than the authorities possess. As the New York Police Department has so aptly said, if you see something, say something.

Give us your thoughts on this report

Reprinting or republication of this report on websites is authorized by prominently displaying the following sentence, including the hyperlink to STRATFOR, at the beginning or end of the report.

"How to Tell if Your Neighbor is a Bombmaker is republished with permission of STRATFOR."

Read more: How to Tell if Your Neighbor is a Bombmaker | STRATFOR
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: George Wallace on April 26, 2011, 13:43:10
Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.


Quote
U.S. lists Montreal mosque as al-Qaeda 'recruiting' place (http://news.sympatico.cbc.ca/home/us_lists_montreal_mosque_as_al-qaeda_recruiting_place/a5560f8c)
26/04/2011 9:22:52 AM

CBC News
 
LINK  (http://news.sympatico.cbc.ca/home/us_lists_montreal_mosque_as_al-qaeda_recruiting_place/a5560f8c)



The Al Sunnah Al Nabawiah Mosque in Montreal was among nine houses of prayer or Islamic institutes worldwide considered by the U.S. military to be places where "known al-Qaeda members were recruited, facilitated or trained," according to leaked classified American intelligence documents.

According to the Pentagon's Matrix of Threat Indicators for Enemy Combatants, among documents from Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, posted by the New York Times on Sunday, the other mosques or Islamic centres included:

- Abu Bakr Islamic University in Karachi, Pakistan.

- Makki Mosque, also in Karachi.

- Al Khair Mosque in Sanaa, Yemen.

- Dimaj Institute in Sadah, Yemen.

- Finsbury Park Mosque and Four Feathers Youth Club in the United Kingdom.

- Laennec Mosque in Lyon, France.

- Islamic Cultural Institute in Milan, Italy.

- Wazir Akbar Khan Mosque in Kabul, Afghanistan.

The Matrix of Threat documents were designed in the early days of the Guantanamo detention centre to guide military intelligence interrogators and analysts there as they tried to assess what detainees might have done in the past and what risk they might pose in the future, the Times said.

Several men who passed through the Montreal mosque in the late 1990s ended up detained outside of Canada, including in Guantanamo Bay, after the Sept. 11 attacks against the United States, the Globe and Mail reported Monday.

The most significant figure was Mohamedou Ould Salahi, an electrical engineer from Mauritania who, according to another leaked classified document, served as an imam at the Al Sunnah Al Nabawiah Mosque in Montreal for about a month.

A call to the mosque wasn't immediately returned on Monday evening.

According to the classified memo prepared by the U.S. Department of Defence in March 2008 and published Monday by the whistleblower website WikiLeaks, Salahi was an admitted al-Qaeda member with family ties to a senior member of the organization.

The U.S. intelligence document alleges Salahi, 40, was a leader of an al-Qaeda cell in Duisburg, Germany, and later the leader of the Montreal-based al-Qaeda cell that was responsible for the foiled millennium bombing plot targeting Los Angeles International Airport and possibly other U.S.-based targets.

The document also alleges that Salahi recruited three of the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attack highjackers and facilitated their training.

The memo concluded he should continue to be detained at Guantanamo because he is an admitted member of al-Qaeda who swore bayat (allegiance) to Osama bin Laden, trained at al-Qaeda camps in Afghanistan, served as a key member of the organization's network in Europe and was prepared to be a martyr.

It says Salahi bounced around Europe in the 1990s, living and working in Germany, alleging his main responsibility was recruitment for al-Qaeda. He relocated along with his wife and family to Canada in 1999 when he had trouble extending his visa in Germany.

"Detainee obtained an immigrant landing visa from the Canadian government and on 26 November 1999, travelled to Montreal, CA, where he stayed with [Hosni] Mohsen, and made plans to study electrical engineering at the Polytechnic [de] Montreal.? While in Montreal, detainee became the imam at the al-Sunnah Mosque during the month of Ramadan, replacing the previous imam, who left for hajj (pilgrimage) to Saudi Arabia," the document stated.

In late December 1999, the Mounties questioned Salahi about Ahmed Ressam, the Algerian Montrealer who was arrested at the U.S.-Canadian border while trying to enter the U.S. with explosives, and became known as the "Millennium Bomber." It was alleged the two met sometime between Salahi's arrival in Canada and Ressam's arrest.

Salahi was assessed by the U.S. military to be "high" risk, posing a threat to the United States, its interests and allies if released without adequate rehabilitation - an assessment given to most of the 172 remaining Guantanamo detainees.

The U.S. intelligence documents also showed that about one-third of the 600 prisoners already transferred to the custody of other nations were also declared "high risk" before their transfers, the New York Times reported

They also make little mention of the harsh interrogation tactics used at Guantanamo, methods such as sleep deprivation and exposure to cold temperatures that drew criticism from around the world, the newspaper reported.

Salahi disputes allegations, alleging abuse

Salahi has acknowledged joining the mujahedeen in its fight against the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan.

But he says he had no role in the millennium bomb plot and denies any association with al-Qaeda, the Taliban or their associates since 1992.

Salahi has tried unsuccessfully to obtain Canadian intelligence documents from the interviews the RCMP conducted with him in 2000, which he claims could corroborate his claim of abuse at the hands of his American captors.

The Supreme Court has refused to hear his case while the Federal Court of Canada ruled last year that he is not entitled to the information because he is neither a Canadian citizen nor subject to legal proceedings in Canada.

At the end of January 2000, Salahi went to visit his ailing mother in Mauritania, where he was detained on several occasions before authorities there turned him over to Jordanian authorities.

Eventually he was handed over to the U.S. military and later transferred in August 2002 to Guantanamo, where he continues to be held.

With files from The Canadian Press


Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: 57Chevy on April 27, 2011, 20:27:50
       From eCanadaNow and Shared in accordance with provisions provided in The Copyright Act

Apr 27th, 2011
WikiLeaks: Montreal Mosque Was Al Qaeda Recruitment Center
http://www.ecanadanow.com/canada/2011/04/27/wikileaks-montreal-mosque-was-al-qaeda-recruitment-center/

The latest cache of WikiLeaks classified documents released on Sunday revealed that US military leaders considered a mosque in Montreal to be one of the top nine al Qaeda recruitment centers around the world.

The leaked 17-page document, entitled “JTF-GTMO Matrix of Threat Indicators for Enemy Combatants,” was written in 2008 by the Defense Department to help intelligence officers assess immediate terrorist threats.

The former imam of the mosque, Mohamedou Ould Salahi, was accused of being the leader of al Qaeda cells in Germany and then in Canada. He has been held at the Guantanamo Bay detention center for seven years, and has been trying, so far unsuccessfully, to get the Canadian Supreme Court to hear his accusations of abuse at the hands of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police in 2000.

The Mauritanian-born Salahi is also reported to have helped make travel and training arrangements for some of the September 11 bombers and to have met with Algerian Ahmed Ressam, the so-called “Millennium Bomber” who was arrested at the US-Canadian border and convicted of planning to blow up the Los Angeles International Airport in late December 1999.

The Al Sunnah Al Nabawiah mosque was the only al Qaeda recruitment and training site listed in North America. The others are located in Britain, France, Italy, Yemen, Pakistan, and Afghanistan.
                          _______________________________
from Wikipedia:
Mohamedou Ould Salahi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohamedou_Ould_Slahi
---
He trained in an al Qaeda camp and swore bayat to al Qaeda in March 1991. Slahi returned to Germany soon after and then traveled to Afghanistan again for three months in early 1992. Slahi alleges that he "severed all ties with ... al-Qaeda" at that time. The U.S. government maintains that Slahi "recruited for al-Qaeda and provided it with other support" since then
---
                       _________________________
from last year
NEW YORK, Apr 12, 2010
Judge Orders Man Once Labeled "Highest-Value Detainee" Released From Gitmo
http://www.alternet.org/rights/146425/judge_orders_man_once_labeled_%22highest-value_detainee%22_released_from_gitmo/

U.S. federal court has ordered the release of a Guantanamo prisoner once described as the "highest-value detainee at the facility" -- and set off a firestorm of protest from Republican lawmakers.
---
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: George Wallace on June 07, 2011, 15:46:37
Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.

Quote
WORLD NEWS

Canadian's terror trial to hear closing arguments

Tuesday, June 7, 2011 | 2:38 PM
 Sympatico.ca News

LINK  (http://news.sympatico.cbc.ca/world/canadians_terror_trial_to_hear_closing_arguments/1ebaa822)

A U.S. court was set to hear closing arguments on Tuesday in the trial of a Canadian citizen accused in the United States of playing a crucial role in the 2008 Mumbai attacks.

The presentations come after U.S. prosecutors presented extensive wiretap and surveillance evidence (http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2011/06/06/us-rana-trial.html) they allege connects Tahawwur Rana to both the Mumbai massacre, as well as an unexecuted plot to attack a Danish newspaper.

Rana, a 50-year old Pakistani-born businessman from Ottawa, has been on trial in a Chicago courtroom for three weeks on several counts of providing material support for terrorism.

Rana's lead attorney Charles Smith, a leading human rights lawyer, has argued the prosecution's case rests entirely on one witness - Rana's boyhood friend, Daood Sayed Gilani, who legally changed his name to David Headley.

Defence attorneys have tried to paint Headley as an untrustworthy witness and focused questioning on how Headley initially lied to the FBI as he pretended to co-operate, lied to a judge and even lied to his own family.

"All Mr. Smith has to do though of course is plant reasonable doubt in one juror's mind," the CBC's Bill Gillespie reported Tuesday from outside the courthouse.

But Gillespie also noted that since the Sept. 11 attacks, U.S. federal prosecutors "have a 90 per cent success rate in getting convictions in terrorism cases."

On Monday, prosecutors played short video clips of statements from Rana, who had agreed to speak with FBI investigators for nearly six hours after his arrest.

Rana could be heard in the clips recounting names and affiliations of others charged in the case, including members of the Pakistani intelligence agency known as ISI and Lashkar-e-Taiba, the militant group blamed in the Mumbai attack.

But it was unclear from the statements whether Rana knew of the Mumbai plot ahead of time.

Rana emigrated from Pakistan to Canada in 1997, staying just long enough to become a Canadian citizen before moving to Chicago to open a branch of his successful immigration consulting business.

In Chicago, Rana renewed his friendship with Headley, who has confessed to being a Lashkar-e-Taiba member after agreeing to a deal with prosecutors to avoid the death penalty and extradition to India or Denmark.

Headley testified at the trial he conducted detailed surveillance on the Mumbai target while posing as a representative of Rana's company - and that Rana was in on the plot that killed more than 160 people, including two Canadians.

Headley has also testified he learned surveillance and intelligence techniques at training camps run by ISI agents and saw Pakistani army officers giving Lashkar fighters weapons training.

Rana did not testify in his defence.

With files from Bill Gillespie and The Associated Press



Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Thucydides on June 17, 2011, 23:48:39
Worth looking into. This may be the real reason Anthony Weiner was under such pressure to resign:

http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/revealed-weiners-in-laws-secret-muslim-brotherhood-connections/?print=1

Quote
Revealed: Weiner’s In-Laws’ Secret Muslim Brotherhood Connections
Posted By Walid Shoebat and Ben Barrack On June 16, 2011 @ 11:14 am In Homeland Security,Opinion,Politics,US News | 60 Comments

Was Huma Abedin — wife of Anthony Weiner and deputy chief of staff to Hillary Clinton — unaware that her mother was reported as a member of the Muslim Brotherhood? Did Western media miss what has been revealed in several Arab newspapers and left secret in American government circles?

Al-Liwa Al-Arabi [1] (translated here [2]) claims to have leaked an extensive list, partially published by Al-Jazeera [3] and several other major Arab newspapers, that includes Huma’s mother, Saleha Abedin, in the Brotherhood’s secret women’s division — known as the Muslim Sisterhood or International Women’s Organization (IWO).

Information about the IWO can readily be found at the Muslim Brotherhood’s official website [4]. An excerpt from its goal, translated from the Arabic, states:

The Women Organization’s goal, in accordance with the Muslim Brotherhood rules, is to gain and acquire a unified global perception in every nation in the world regarding the position of women, and the necessity of advocacy work at all levels in accordance with the message of the Brotherhood, as written in Women in Muslim Society, and the rearing of women throughout the different stages of life [emphasis added].

The Egyptian paper Al-Dostor revealed that the Sisterhood includes 63 international members across 16 different countries — a claim confirmed by the Arab Center for Studies, headed by researcher Abdul Rahim Ali. [5]

Neither Huma nor any major Western media outlets even mention this bit of common knowledge in the Arab world.

But there is more. Also confirmed [6] by Arab sources is that Huma Abedin has a brother who works at Oxford University named Hassan Abedin. Oxford, which has long been infiltrated by Islamists who founded the Oxford Centre for Islamic Studies [6] (OCIS), has Huma’s brother listed as a fellow [7] and partner with a number of Muslim Brotherhood members [8] on the Board — including al-Qaeda associate Omar Naseef [9] and the notorious Muslim Brotherhood leader Sheikh Yusuf Qaradawi [10]. Both have been listed as OCIS trustees. [11] Naseef continues to serve as Board chairman. [12]

In 2009, Qaradawi’s role within Oxford [13] and the Muslim Brotherhood was championed [14] by the notorious Sheikh Rached Ghannouchi of Al-Nahda – a Muslim Brotherhood affiliate now active in Tunisia. OCIS has even presented an award [15] for great scholarly achievement to Brotherhood member Shaykh Abd Al-Fattah Abu Gudda, whose personal history goes back to the Brotherhood’s founder, Hasan al-Banna.

Even the Sunday Times acknowledges [16] that the cradle [17] of Islamic jihad — Al-Azhar University — actively attempts to establish links with OCIS, where Huma’s brother serves.

Was Huma unaware [18] of all this as she accompanied [19] Hillary Clinton to the Dar El-Hekma [20] women’s college in Saudi Arabia? Huma’s mother is co-founder and vice dean at the college and an active missionary on issues regarding Muslim women.

Another member listed as belonging to the Sisterhood mentioned by Al-Jazeera [3] is Suheir Qureshi. Alongside Huma’s mother, Saleha Abedin, as well as Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, who was brought in due to her connection with Huma, Qureshi spoke on issues of women in Muslim society. An Arabic news report [21] of what happened during [22] Hillary’s visit [19] stated that:

Suheir Qureshi spoke of how elated she was of Hillary’s historic visit…. Saleha Abedin spoke after Suheir Qureshi and beamed in the presence of Secretary Clinton. Saleha’s speech preceded the former first lady’s. Then Hillary stood. She donned a broad smile as she approached the podium….Clinton started with a strong word and she spent a long time complimenting Dr. Saleha Abedin regarding her daughter. Hillary explained that Huma holds an important and sensitive position in her office. She ended her speech by speaking of Saleha Abedin’s daughter (Huma), that a person must be happy if mentioned in a positive light but there is no happiness that equals the compliment given to children in front of a parent [emphasis added].

It is sacrilege in Islam for Huma’s mother to accept the reality that her daughter is married to a Jew. Yet neither Saleha nor Huma’s brother Hassan denounces her marriage to Weiner, especially when it was considered null and void [23] by some of the highest authorities [24] on Islamic Sharia rulings.

Huma’s brother has been key in furthering the Islamic agenda [25] and has worked with Saudi Prince Alwaleed bin Talal on a program of “spreading Islam to the west.” A detailed report [9] from 2007 shows that Naseef was identified as the likely force behind the Abedin family’s departure from Kalamazoo, Michigan, to Jeddah, Saudi Arabia, circa 1977 – the same year that the Muslim Sisterhood was established.

In 2008, Dr. Mumen Muhammad wrote about [26] why Huma vowed to stay with Hillary even if the latter were to lose the presidential nomination to Obama:

Abedin assures in press releases of her continuance on the path with Hillary Clinton, even if Clinton failed as a candidate. The candidate’s aides and other influential figures in the Democratic Party assure that they do not disregard Abedin running for election or taking her position in the political arena with the help in successive political administrations of the Clinton family itself [emphasis added].

Hillary Clinton signed a document [27] less than one month prior to her trip to Saudi Arabia with Huma that lifted the ban [28] on Tariq Ramadan, allowing him entry into the United States. (Ramadan is the grandson of the founder of the Muslim Brotherhood, Hasan al-Banna [29], and has ties to Islamic terrorist groups.) The Clinton family played a key role in promoting Fethullah Gülen, the extremely powerful Turkish imam and notorious Islamist conspirator, as he fled Turkey for the United States after attempting to overthrow Turkey’s secular government. (He was indicted [30] on this charge in 2000.) In 2008, the former president heaped praise [31] on Gülen, giving him a clean slate. Gülen has been given refuge and has even had sermons aired on Turkish television during which he explained to his followers how to best seize power [32] from the Turkish government:

You must move in the arteries of the system without anyone noticing your existence until you reach all the power centers… until the conditions are ripe….Until that time, any step taken would be too early — like breaking an egg without waiting the full forty days for it to hatch. It would be like killing the chick inside [emphasis added].

Gülen expressed this sentiment in another sermon [33] as well:

The philosophy of our service is that we open a house somewhere and, with the patience of a spider, we lay our web to wait for people to get caught in the web; and we teach those who do [emphasis added].

Serving with Huma’s brother as an Oxford Centre trustee [11] is Abdullah Gül [34], Turkey’s president himself. He considers himself a follower of Fethullah Gülen, according to Wikileaks. [35]

Huma Abedin’s charm, family connections, and access to highly sensitive state secrets — as admitted by Hillary herself — can have significant consequences. What absolutely must be known is if this circle of public servants was made aware of all these ties to potential enemies of the state.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Article printed from Pajamas Media: http://pajamasmedia.com

URL to article: http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/revealed-weiners-in-laws-secret-muslim-brotherhood-connections/

URLs in this post:

[1] Al-Liwa Al-Arabi: http://hobaheba.blogspot.com/

[2] translated here: http://www.shoebat.com/blog/archives/1202

[3] Al-Jazeera: http://www.aljazeera.net/Mob/Templates/Postings/NewsDetailedPage.aspx?GUID=666261C4-31C1-4DE3-86B5-FD0E84ACBE28

[4] official website: http://www.ikhwanhistory.org/index.php?title=%5F%5F%5F%5F%5F_%5F%5F%5F%5F%5F%5F_%28%5F%5F%5F%5F%5F%5F%29&diff=87650&oldid=87648

[5] Abdul Rahim Ali.: http://www.ikhwanweb.com/article.php?id=23185

[6] confirmed: http://alqumaa.net/vb//showthread.php?t=45524

[7] fellow: http://www.oxcis.ac.uk/fellows.html

[8] members: http://www.almktaba.com/book/picbook/book8/p16.html

[9] Omar Naseef: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1924323/posts

[10] Yusuf Qaradawi: http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/individualProfile.asp?indid=822

[11] trustees.: http://globalmbreport.com/?p=2641

[12] Board chairman.: http://www.charityperformance.com/charity-details.php?id=12448

[13] within Oxford: http://ikhwanmisr.net/article.php?id=21082

[14] championed: http://www.ghannoushi.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=298:qaradawi

[15] an award: http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?10813-Shaykh-Abd-Al-Fattah-Abu-Gudda

[16] acknowledges: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article7099811.ece

[17] the cradle: http://www.jihadwatch.org/2009/05/sheikh-al-azhar-urges-jihad-against-terrorists.html

[18] unaware: http://www.indianexpress.com/news/huma-abedin-sucked-into-weiner-scandal/803127/

[19] accompanied: http://globalmbreport.org/?p=2242

[20] Dar El-Hekma: https://sisweb.daralhekma.edu.sa:8251/portal/page?_pageid=374,146513&_dad=portal&_schema=PORTAL

[21] news report: http://www.mnfaa.com/vb/showthread.php?t=8889

[22] during: http://secretaryclinton.wordpress.com/2010/02/15/hillary-clinton-in-saudi-arabia/

[23] null and void: http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=7&ID=11439&CATE=1436

[24] highest authorities: http://www.farfesh.com/Display.asp?catID=119&mainCatID=117&sID=82834

[25] Islamic agenda: http://www.alriyadh.com/2006/02/22/article132831.html

[26] wrote about: http://www.syria-aleppo.com/news/1778.html

[27] signed a document: http://www.tariqramadan.com/US-Government-Lifts-Ban-on-Tariq.html

[28] lifted the ban: http://globalmbreport.org/?p=1956

[29] Hasan al-Banna: http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/individualProfile.asp?indid=1368

[30] indicted: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2000/sep/01/1

[31] heaped praise: http://www.youtube.com/user/turkishcenter

[32] seize power: http://www.meforum.org/2045/fethullah-gulens-grand-ambition

[33] another sermon: http://www.meforum.org/2045/fethullah-gulens-grand-ambition#_ftnref49

[34] Abdullah Gül: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6595511.stm

[35] Wikileaks.: http://leaksfree.com/2009/12/gulen-turkeys-invisible-man-casts-long-shadow/
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: GAP on February 06, 2012, 12:04:55
Partner of alleged Canadian terrorist grapples with competing realities
JOSH WINGROVE EDMONTON— From Monday's Globe and Mail Sunday, Feb. 05, 2012
Article Link (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/partner-of-alleged-canadian-terrorist-grapples-with-competing-realities/article2327459/?utm_medium=Newsletters&utm_source=Morning%20News%20Update&utm_type=text&utm_content=Partner%20of%20alleged%20Canadian%20terrorist%20grapples%20with%20competing%20realities&utm_campaign=92727335)
 
When the Mounties came knocking one frigid January day in Edmonton, Aisha Rain thought it was a joke. So did her common-law husband. “Is this Candid Camera?” she recalls him asking.

It wasn’t, and her life has never been the same. Police had come that day, one year ago, to arrest her partner. “I remember thinking, like, this can’t be happening,” Ms. Rain says.

At issue was a clash between portraits of two men, worlds apart.

One was Sayfildin (Sayf) Tahir Sharif, 39, the contractor who Ms. Rain, a first nations woman, quickly fell in love with after they met in the summer of 2009. She converted to Islam to be with the man, an Iraqi Kurd who was granted Canadian citizenship in 2005. He became a father figure to her four children. They cooked, lived and prayed together in an Edmonton apartment.

The picket-fence image is at odds with the portrait of Faruq Khalil Muhammad ‘Isa, a man the U.S. Department of Justice alleges is a terrorist. The Justice Department alleges that a few months before meeting Ms. Rain, Mr. Sharif helped co-ordinate a suicide bombing attack in Iraq that killed five American soldiers; that he pledged his support for a war on America “1,000,000 per cent;” that he sent terrorists money.

It’s that man, they say, who has been posing under the alias of “Sayf” – Arabic for “sword.”
More on link
 
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Nemo888 on February 06, 2012, 12:55:45
I'm thinking the Muslim terrorists are winding down and domestic terrorists are just getting started. I think politically motivated domestic born terrorists will be our bread and butter in the future. With the destruction of manufacturing the majority of the working class are becoming surplus. In only the last ten years American manufacturing has increased production by 30% but US jobs in manufacturing have dropped by over 30%. With automated factories competing against de facto slave labor in Asia and Africa the majority of our average Joe's will have no useful work. The combined erosion of useful labour and buying power for average Americans will marginalize a huge percentage of the population. The working class at one time was 70% of our capitalist economy. They made everything and bought everything. They matter less and less each year. Average US salary is 26k per year now and real buying power is dropping steadily. This will probably cause some extreme unrest in areas of severe economic hardship. Which will bring in tougher crackdowns on communities like Oakland. Which will lead to radicalization of certain susceptible members of that community. At least we already have all the infrastructure in place to look after this problem. I don't think it was a waste of money in the end.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Nemo888 on February 06, 2012, 21:27:12
This, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the National Post, is why o0ur security services need to remain vigilant in both directions - in and out:

http://news.nationalpost.com/2011/10/21/quebec-woman-charged-with-trying-to-export-assault-rifle-parts-to-lebanon/

Many Lebanese and Syrians have settled in Montreal and have made common cause with domestic anti-Israel groups as well as pursuing their own "old country" political agendas.
(https://Air-Force.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fnationalpostnews.files.wordpress.com%2F2011%2F10%2Fna1022-ar15.jpg%3Fw%3D620%26amp%3Bh%3D465&hash=37b4722180ace2273ace032ad73f1b25)


 Soon borders will not be as big a problem as the internet. I was at The Pirate Bay torrent site(purely for educational purposes) and was looking at the new section for physical object 3D printing. You can download a model of a 1970 Chevelle hotrod for instance.  Then I went to Shapeways.com to check out how much 3d printing cost. Then I remembered your story on weapon parts. If they get the tolerances a little tighter on metal printing we will be able to print things like full auto bolts for our legal AR's and longer mags from torrents we download off the internet. If some Black Bloc anarchists get their hands on a good 3d printer and a usb stick of weapon models they could get into some serious mischief.

This is a picture of a torrent downloaded off the internet and printed locally. You get the idea.
(https://Air-Force.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv483%2FNemo888%2Fpirate-bay-3d.jpg&hash=e7b9dec2dcf2f9a8db2f507758748195)

P.S. No sign of Blender(3D modelling program) files on the darknet yet. But I am sure there are some networks working on it already.  The people who keep titles like "The Terrorist's Handbook: A practical guide to explosives and other things of interests to terrorists" circulating around the deep web will be on to this in no time.

Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Foxhound on February 06, 2012, 23:12:45
Then I went to Shapeways.com to check out how much 3d printing cost.

If some Black Bloc anarchists get their hands on a good 3d printer and a usb stick of weapon models they could get into some serious mischief.

So, how much is one of these printers that can print in 3-D with moly-steel gonna cost me?
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: wildman0101 on February 23, 2012, 19:38:27
Twistedcable,
Your so far outa your league you dont even know how to bat.
Noticed your profile. No Military exsperience. Nothing. PVT
response please candy a##.
Scoty B
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: jollyjacktar on February 24, 2012, 09:25:20
Soon borders will not be as big a problem as the internet. I was at The Pirate Bay torrent site(purely for educational purposes) and was looking at the new section for physical object 3D printing. You can download a model of a 1970 Chevelle hotrod for instance.  Then I went to Shapeways.com to check out how much 3d printing cost. Then I remembered your story on weapon parts. If they get the tolerances a little tighter on metal printing we will be able to print things like full auto bolts for our legal AR's and longer mags from torrents we download off the internet. If some Black Bloc anarchists get their hands on a good 3d printer and a usb stick of weapon models they could get into some serious mischief.

This is a picture of a torrent downloaded off the internet and printed locally. You get the idea.
(https://Air-Force.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv483%2FNemo888%2Fpirate-bay-3d.jpg&hash=e7b9dec2dcf2f9a8db2f507758748195)

Bloody Hell!!  I never thought of this possibility.  I'm sure you are correct in your musings.  Some shithead, somewhere is trying as we type you can bet on it.

BTW, how much did the nice TPB ship cost you to print?

P.S. No sign of Blender(3D modelling program) files on the darknet yet. But I am sure there are some networks working on it already.  The people who keep titles like "The Terrorist's Handbook: A practical guide to explosives and other things of interests to terrorists" circulating around the deep web will be on to this in no time.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: George Wallace on April 10, 2012, 15:07:00
WOW!  Just WOW!  Talk about people with no common sense.  Not just the Muslims who came up with this ad, but the City councilors who didn't have it taken down.   (Link in Title)

Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.
Quote

Religious ad sparks transit fury
(http://www.canadiantimes.ca/CMS/index.php/icv/1148-religious-ad-sparks-transit-fury)

The Canadian Times
05 Apr 2012

TORONTO - A Muslim advertisement stating "There is no god but Allah" has started a vigourous debate amongst Toronto transit riders and sparked a review from the Toronto Transit Commission Advertising Commission Group.

After five complaints were made, a working group including Coun. Karen Stintz has decided to allow the advertisement to remain in the Kennedy subway station.

"The decision to reject or accept an ad isn't decided by whether someone takes offence to it or not," said TTC spokesperson Brad Ross. "It doesn't violate the Human Rights Code. We can't reject an ad because it espouses one view on religion."


More on link.

Quote

Religious ad on subway sparks controversy (http://news.sympatico.ca/oped/coffee-talk/religious_ad_on_subway_sparks_controversy/91218f44)

09/04/2012 7:30:00 AM
by Nevil Hunt

An ad promoting Allah will stay in place at a Toronto subway station despite complaints from the public.
 


An ad stating "There is no god but Allah" inside a Toronto subway station has prompted at least five complaints (http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2012/04/04/pf-19594551.html), but it will stay right where it is.

A working group including a Toronto city councillor reviewed the ad in the Kennedy subway station and found it is in keeping with the Human Rights Code.

"We can't reject an ad because it espouses one view on religion," said a Toronto Transit Commission spokesman. "The decision to reject or accept an ad isn't decided by whether someone takes offence to it or not."

Given that the transit system is public, it makes no sense at all to allow ads that upset members of the public. If anything within the system makes users uncomfortable – the temperature, the noise or the ads on the walls – the TTC should do everything it can to fix the problem if it's not too expensive a proposition.

That means that air-conditioned bus shelter across the city would be nice but obviously would cost a fortune. Removing a poster that multiple riders find offensive costs the TTC and the taxpayer nothing.

The ad includes an offer of free Korans and Islamic books, which can't offend anyone. It includes a website and directions to a booth operated by the Islam Info Centre, which paid for the poster to be displayed in the subway station.

Disseminating information is fair game, but if the other words offend, the poster should come down.

The Toronto subway poster has drawn criticism from the Canada Family Action Coalition. The president of the coalition called it "an offensive ad to all non-Muslims," that is "saying all other faiths are illegitimate."

Religions by their nature are divisive. They set people up in different camps with their different opinions, and they also seek out new members.

And when one religious group puts on a push to convert, the other religious organizations can't help but feel threatened. In the case of the subway poster, that attempt to reach people of other faiths, or no faith, flies in the face of some people who want to protect the status quo.

Even the founder of the Canadian Muslim Congress said the ad goes too far. He said "There is no god but Allah" is a mistaken translation into English. He told a reporter that it should read, "There is no god but God."

That phrasing may well have caused less angst for people of other faiths and the Islam Info Centre should consider making that change to the poster, even if the TTC working group has allowed it to stay as is.

The transit commission is in a sticky spot because it has to try and make everyone happy. The commission must be even-handed which means there are two options: accept all ads and risk offending some riders or accept none at all.

Should the poster be removed? Would you feel the same way no matter which religion was being promoted?



More on link.




Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Hamish Seggie on April 10, 2012, 15:17:38
Maybe we should put a billboard up that states " There is no true god but Thor!" or Zeus, or whatever god you want to make up.


But for goodness sake don't put one up that espouses Christianity.....or is it just me that thinks this way?
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: milnews.ca on April 10, 2012, 15:23:48
But for goodness sake don't put one up that espouses Christianity.....or is it just me that thinks this way?
Well, if the TTC spokesperson is to be taken at his/her word ....
Quote
"We can't reject an ad because it espouses one view on religion," said a Toronto Transit Commission spokesman. "The decision to reject or accept an ad isn't decided by whether someone takes offence to it or not."
.... one would think it wouldn't be any problem at all.

It'll be interesting to see if a church tries to do the same thing elsewhere in the TTC system - then we'll see if an ad espousing one view on religion really can go up, regardless of complaints received.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: RDJP on April 10, 2012, 15:45:22
Quote
Given that the transit system is public, it makes no sense at all to allow ads that upset members of the public. If anything within the system makes users uncomfortable – the temperature, the noise or the ads on the walls – the TTC should do everything it can to fix the problem if it's not too expensive a proposition.

Anything?  So if users are uncomfortable with waiting for a driver to take a bathroom break, like this past week, perhaps the TTC should remove that privilege?

How is this any different from a Christian church putting up a poster saying "Christ died for your sins."??? Is that saying that any other religions not based on Christ are illegitimate?

Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Hamish Seggie on April 10, 2012, 15:50:20
How is this any different from a Christian church putting up a poster saying "Christ died for your sins."??? Is that saying that any other religions not based on Christ are illegitimate?



The difference is that if you put up something that espouses Christianity, someone will complain vociferously and something will be done. But we are a tolerant nation, right?
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Danjanou on April 10, 2012, 17:39:32
Maybe we should put a billboard up that states " There is no true god but Thor!" or Zeus, or whatever god you want to make up.


But for goodness sake don't put one up that espouses Christianity.....or is it just me that thinks this way?

Done  >:D
(https://Air-Force.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fchzmemebase.files.wordpress.com%2F2011%2F06%2Fmemes-odin-kills-ice-giants.jpg&hash=f8b0547fe0f39d5a774dc3ae02bac051)
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Hamish Seggie on April 10, 2012, 22:30:29
Love it! I, by the way, am a Jedi.

I just haven't been issued my light saber yet,  something about procurement....
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: GAP on April 10, 2012, 22:41:19
Done  >:D
(https://Air-Force.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fchzmemebase.files.wordpress.com%2F2011%2F06%2Fmemes-odin-kills-ice-giants.jpg&hash=f8b0547fe0f39d5a774dc3ae02bac051)

Oh, they all got jobs with the NFL on the offensive line, and those that didn't cut it went to the WWF......
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Target Up on April 11, 2012, 01:07:23
Love it! I, by the way, am a Jedi.

I just haven't been issued my light saber yet,  something about procurement....

A true Jedi makes his own light sabre.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: George Wallace on April 11, 2012, 10:29:00
A true Jedi makes his own light sabre.

A true Jedi doesn't need a light sabre.  They have the 'Force'.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: ArmyRick on April 11, 2012, 10:49:43
Jim,

If your a jedi, does that make Joe Jasper yoda? He was certainly small enough for it.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Hamish Seggie on April 11, 2012, 15:00:59
Jim,

If your a jedi, does that make Joe Jasper yoda? He was certainly small enough for it.

No. A good Jedi Joe is.....but Yoda not he is.

Any more of those funny videos coming out?
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: ArmyRick on April 11, 2012, 15:12:55
Yes. It will take awhile. I am looking at different scenarios.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Thucydides on August 22, 2012, 18:29:12
The really frightening part about this story is how fast this person "flipped" from normal kid into Jihadi. Obviously there is much more to the story, it would be very interesting to discover where he actually came into contact with radical Islam, and what methods are being used to indoctrinate people into this cult:

http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/08/20/dagestan/

Quote
The Canadian who converted to jihad: Boxer turned militant killed in Dagestan
Stewart Bell | Aug 20, 2012 9:33 PM ET | Last Updated: Aug 21, 2012 11:40 AM ET
More from Stewart Bell
 
In the video he shot inside his hut in the mountains of Dagestan last winter, William Plotnikov narrated as he panned from the black flag of jihad to three bearded rebels and their assault rifles.

Then he turned the camera on himself.

“I ask Allah that the next season he’ll give us the opportunity to kill as many kafirs [non-believers] as we can, just to shred them to pieces,” William said. “Allah is almighty.”

Watching the clip on the computer in his apartment north of Toronto last week, Vitaly Plotnikov looked both heartbroken and perplexed. It was hard for him to accept that this was his son.

“It’s just like a different person to me,” he said.

Russian security forces announced last month that they had killed William, a 23-year-old Canadian, during a gun battle in Dagestan. Since then, the Canadian government has been trying to verify the Russians’ account.

But in an interview with the National Post, Mr. Plotnikov confirmed William’s death and spoke for the first time about his son’s rapid transformation from Toronto teenager and champion boxer to Muslim convert and jihadist fighter.

What seemed to amaze Mr. Plotnikov most was how fast it all happened. His son only became interested in Islam in 2009, he said. Within a year, he had left Canada and by July he was dead. He had gone from convert to martyr in less than three years.

He is not the first radicalized Canadian to die under such circumstances, but he is believed to be the first Canadian convert to die fighting in the name of jihad— all the others having been born into their faith. His father said William became so radicalized he did not even consider the other Muslims he met to be true Muslims. He claimed that Canada and the U.S. were a source of evil for Muslims.

“How can the mind of a person be changed in such a short period of time?” Mr. Plotnikov asked inside the York Region apartment where he keeps William’s boxing medals in a copper trophy on a shelf.

Before moving to Canada, the family lived in Western Siberia, where Mr. Plotnikov worked for an oil company. An athlete himself, he introduced his son to boxing at age nine, and William went on to twice win the Russian youth championships.

After losing his oil company job, Mr. Plotnikov found work at a bank but he wanted more than Russia had to offer. He and his wife also wanted to make sure William got a good education, and they were concerned about the gangs that attracted some former Russian athletes, so they decided to fulfill a lifelong dream of emigrating to the West.

Mr. Plotnikov immediately felt at home in Toronto. Soon after arriving, he got a job stocking shelves at a Highland Farms supermarket on Dufferin Street. “I came as though I was born here,” he said, speaking through a Russian translator.

The move was more difficult for William. He was 15 and had left his friends. He could not understand why the boys at his new high school wore baggy pants and piercings, and he was turned off by the heavy drinking of the Russian expats he met.

Boris Gitman saw athletic potential in the lanky teen who turned up at his boxing club in Thornhill. “I was impressed. His coach in Russia did a good job,” said Mr. Gitman, who coaches at the European Boxing School.

Tall and skinny, William needed to work on his strength and endurance. “He was not physically strong but he was very, very talented.… Very smart,” Mr. Gitman added. “In boxing, it’s very important to be smart. He understood about boxing a lot and I just knew he needed a couple of years. From my experience I thought he would be a good Olympian.”

The coach dedicated himself to William and came to respect his parents. “I know that his father used to work hard, very hard. He did everything possible just to support his family,” Mr. Gitman said. “A very nice man.”

William began to win fights in Ontario. He won a silver medal at the 2006 Brampton Cup, and followed that by winning a club bout at Exhibition Place. He won another silver at the 2007 provincial championships in Windsor.

But by the time the Plotnikovs became Canadian citizens in 2008, William was drifting away from boxing. He tried Jujitsu, Aikido and Thai boxing. Mr. Gitman said the young athlete was struggling to adjust to Canada.

“Two of my sons came here almost at the same age and I know how difficult it was for them because they lost a lot of friends over there,” he said. “All their life was in Russia and, especially William, he had a good life over there.

“He came here and he sees that his parents are working somewhere, not a good position maybe. And like any kid he has some difficulties — language difficulties, to study at school, different culture, different everything.”

After graduating from high school, William enrolled in the international travel and tourism program at Toronto’s Seneca College. He also began asking life’s Big Questions. He reflected in his diary about human existence. He read the Bible, the Torah and the Koran.

Curious about why Muslims prayed five times a day, he decided to visit a Toronto mosque. “So he went to the mosque to clear that up and he just got caught up with a mullah who had very radical views,” his father said, although he does not know which mosque or cleric. “Islam on its own, it’s not a bad religion,” he added. “But like in any other case, the extremists are not always good.”

Before long, William was praying five times daily and fasting for Ramadan. He stopped shaving and eliminated pork from his diet. He became withdrawn and isolated from friends and family. “It wasn’t extremism but first of all his behaviour changed. He practically stopped communicating with us,” Mr. Plotnikov said.

His father tried talking to him.

“We’re Christians,” he said, but William countered that his mother’s family were ethnic Tatars, who had a tradition of Islam. His father explained that William had been baptized in a church. “You didn’t ask me, did you?” William responded.

Early in September 2010, Mr. Plotnikov and his wife returned from a Florida vacation and found a note on the table. It was from William. He said he was sorry and that he had gone to France for Ramadan.

“He just took $3,500 from the bank and left with it, and we ended up paying the debt for him,” Mr. Plotnikov said. “We waited for a week, two, one month, two months. Then we found out that he’s in Moscow.”

The family got word that William was staying there with a friend from Toronto who had grown alarmed by William’s hardening beliefs. “William started expressing his radical views, that basically from here he was already a ready-to-go, prepped fighter,” the father said. “He only was looking for a chance to get inside, into mujahed [jihadist] forces.”

From Moscow, William travelled by train to Dagestan. Sixteen hundred kilometres south of Moscow, Dagestan is a republic in the North Caucasus region of Russia. It shares a border with Chechnya, a notorious magnet for Islamist militants in the 1990s.

After Russia brutally crushed the Chechen insurgency, some rebels crossed into Dagestan, spreading jihadist ideology and calling for “holy war” — although the region has long practiced the moderate Sufi school of Islam.

Jihadist groups such as Shariat Jamaat formed to implement Islamic law throughout the North Caucasus, and began committing almost daily attacks on police and security forces, as well as government officials and moderate clerics. In March 2010, two suicide bombers from Dagestan attacked the Moscow metro during rush hour, killing 40.

Russia’s crackdown in response to the insurgency has been blamed for further inflaming the conflict. In its 2011 World Report, Human Rights Watch accused law enforcement and security agencies of torture, disappearances and extrajudicial killings.

The Dagestan conflict is driven mostly by local issues ranging from corruption and unemployment to the divide between traditional Sufi Islam and intolerant Salafi Islam. But it has drawn a handful of outsiders.

Probably the best known was Alexander Tikhomirov, alias “Said Buryatsky,” a Russian volunteer who was responsible for a 2009 train bombing that killed 26 and other attacks until his death in 2010.

“He converted and ended up becoming one of the most charismatic insurgents around, and he used a lot of audio lectures and the Internet to rally a following, especially among young people,” said Sabine Freizer, a North Caucasus analyst at the International Crisis Group. “He was really seen as a kind of white hero of the insurgency amongst young fighters.”

So when William arrived in Dagestan, there was already a precedent of converts fighting for the rebel forces. William lived in a village of about 3,000, called Utamysh, not far from Dagestan’s capital, Makhachkala, his father said.

Concerned after hearing about the radicalism William had expressed in Moscow, his father called the Russian Interior Ministry. He hoped the Russian authorities would stop William and explain the consequences of his actions. The Russians subsequently raided the house where William was staying and told him to go home. He returned to Moscow, but soon made his way back to Dagestan.

William did not communicate with his family at all during this time. But photos Mr. Plotnikov received from a local newspaper following his son’s death made clear what the Canadian was up to. They showed William standing in the leaf-carpeted mountains, posing guerrilla-style with other armed men.

He wore an olive windbreaker with a camouflage ammunition belt over top. He had one hand in his pocket and held an assault rifle in the air with the other. In another photo, he sat in the dark reading a pocket Koran with a headlamp.

Although it is unknown what, if any, attacks William took part in, during the months he spent in their company, the rebels killed dozens of police officers and soldiers in bomb and shooting attacks. In May, two suicide bombings, 15 minutes apart at a police roadblock, killed a dozen people in the capital.

“It’s not only that they were reading the Koran in the forest, they were attacking the forces, the troops, the military,” said Mr. Plotnikov, 58, who works for a Toronto-area produce company. “I have the movie.”

In the video file, also given to the family after William’s death, the young Canadian offered a brief glimpse of rebel life, showing food cooking on a wood stove and a man dressed in camouflage joking about the merits of his assault rifle.

“What do you do?” William asked a man sitting on a bunk (according to Mr. Plotnikov, that man was a Turkish national who fought in Chechnya and Afghanistan and, like the others, is now dead.)

“Terrorism,” he replied. “I kill kafirs.”

William then put the camera down and sat next to him.

“So this is the way we live and suffer,” William said. His hair was trimmed short and he wore a sleeveless black Adidas shirt that showed how gaunt he had become since leaving Canada.

“We have food to cook and eat, thanks to Allah. And also have brothers and try to do as much as we can for Allah. Kafirs, you’re not going to get what you expect. Allah is with us. He protects us. You don’t have a protector.

“We will kill you. We’re going to build plans against you. But no matter how many plans you make, nothing is going to succeed because whatever He described in His book is the truth. Allah is the truth,” he said. “All of you others are waste, garbage.”

When the video finished playing on his computer, Mr. Plotnikov opened an old photo of William wearing his athletic training clothes, looking like just another Canadian youth. “See and compare the way he was,” he said. “You see this is the way he became. It’s like two different things, the sky and the ground.”

Before midnight on Friday July 13, Russian troops ambushed a group of gunmen in the forests near Utamysh. The Russians had “received information about the possible movements” of insurgents, according to a Russian government news release.

During the ensuing firefight, several security personnel were wounded and one was killed. By morning, seven militants were dead, including two local faction leaders. Islam Magomedov, alias Hamster, headed the Sergokala jihadist group and had been wanted since 2010 for various attacks.

Also killed was Arsen Magomedov, who headed a jihadist group in nearby Izberbash and “was involved in numerous murders of law enforcement officers and a number of IED explosions on the railway.”

The other dead were named as Isa Dalgatov, Shamil Akhmedov, Amin Ibiyev, Magomedsaid Mamtov and William Plotnikov. The jihadist website Kavkaz called William a martyr. “May Allah reward all the brothers.”

The Plotnikovs thought it was an Internet scam when they started getting emails expressing condolences over their son’s death. Then they saw the news reports and realized it might be true.

It is uncertain how many Canadians have met similar fates. The Canadian Security Intelligence Service would not disclose how many Canadians have died fighting for foreign armed groups. It’s possible the agency does not know, since many have gone to countries with non-functioning governments, or where missile strikes leave little in the way of remains.

Studies on radicalization suggest that converts are particularly vulnerable to extremist ideologues, who prey on their ignorance and zeal. According to a study on the RCMP website, conversion “can create an emotional experience that is easy for radicalization agents to manipulate.” As newcomers to their beliefs, converts may also feel the need to prove themselves to the group, a New York Police Department study said.

“You see it’s just like the Christians,” Mr. Plotnikov said. “There are Catholics, there are Orthodox, there are Seven Day Adventists. The same thing in Islam. Islam has lots of movements. Whatever he chose, it was not approved by his friends. And he was told that, ‘You went the wrong way.’ But like it says, blessed are those who believe. So he was programmed. He knew where he was going, he knew the aims.

So this is what he did.”

Because William was not wanted for any major crimes, and had only been a member of the insurgent group, Russian authorities agreed to release his body and Mr. Plotnikov flew to Dagestan to collect his son’s remains.

He buried William in Utamysh according to local Muslim traditions. “Because he converted to Islam, he was fighting for them, he lived there for some time. That’s why I buried him there. We will try and maybe fly over there, maybe once a year.”

Between visits, he said, the villagers will tend to the gravestone. It is a simple marker, about the size of a book. Inscribed on it are William’s name, birth date, date of his death and the symbol of a crescent moon.

National Post
sbell@nationalpost.com
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: jollyjacktar on August 22, 2012, 18:43:36
Read the story yesterday.  While I can feel for his Father and the grief he must be feeling, the kid played with fire and reaped what he sowed.  I'm glad he did not get a chance to bring his roadshow back here.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Fishbone Jones on August 22, 2012, 18:47:38
Thought I felt tinge of sympathy for a sec.

Turns out it was a cramp in my foot.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Jarnhamar on August 22, 2012, 21:17:06
Where religion is strong it causes cruelty. Intense beliefs produce intense hostility.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Hamish Seggie on August 22, 2012, 22:27:44
Read the story yesterday.  While I can feel for his Father and the grief he must be feeling, the kid played with fire and reaped what he sowed.  I'm glad he did not get a chance to bring his roadshow back here.

I feel for the family. Him, not as much.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: jollyjacktar on September 16, 2012, 12:22:17
 http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2012/09/15/chicago-terrorism-car-bomb.html

Quote
U.S. teen arrested in Chicago car bomb plot
U.S. citizen from a Chicago suburb, was arrested Friday night in an undercover FBI operation
The Associated Press
Posted: Sep 15, 2012 7:58 PM ET

Undercover Federal Bureau of Investigation agents arrested an 18-year-old American man who tried to detonate what he was led to believe was a car bomb outside a downtown Chicago bar, federal prosecutors said Saturday.

Adel Daoud, a U.S. citizen from the Chicago suburb of Hillside, was arrested Friday night in an undercover operation in which agents pretending to be terrorists provided him with a phony car bomb.

The U.S. Attorney's Office in Chicago, which announced the arrest Saturday, said the device was harmless and the public was never at risk.

Daoud is charged with attempting to use a weapon of mass destruction and attempting to damage and destroy a building with an explosive.

Someone who answered a call to Daoud's home in Hillside on Saturday who said her name was Hiba and that she was Daoud's sister declined to discuss Daoud, the family or the arrest.
'We'd like to be left alone'

"We don't even know anything. We don't know that much. We know as little as you do," she said. "They're just accusations."

"We'd like to be left alone," she said.

No one answered the door of the two-story brick home later Saturday.

A next-door neighbour said he was shocked by the arrest, describing Daoud as a quiet boy who played basketball in the driveway with friends and calling his parents "wonderful" people.

"I heard maybe he had a little trouble in school," said the neighbor, 78-year-old Harry Pappas. "He was quiet, didn't talk much, but he seemed like a good kid."

Pappas said he saw a dozen unmarked cars drive up to the house Friday night and several agents go inside.

The FBI began monitoring Daoud after he posted material online about violent jihad and the killing of Americans, federal prosecutors said.

In May, two undercover FBI agents contacted Daoud in response to the postings and exchanged several electronic messages with him in which he expressed an interest in engaging in violent jihad in the United States or abroad, according to an affidavit by an FBI special agent.
29 potential targets

Prosecutors say that after being introduced to an undercover FBI agent who claimed to be a terrorist living in New York, Daoud set about identifying 29 potential targets, including military recruiting centers, bars, malls and tourist attractions in Chicago.

He is accused of settling on a downtown bar and conducting surveillance on it using Google Street View and visiting the area in person to take photographs.

Describing the target to the agent, Daoud said it was also a concert venue and next to a liquor store, according to the affidavit.

"It's a bar, it's a liquor store, it's a concert. All in one bundle," the document quotes him as saying. The affidavit said he noted that the bar would be filled with the "evilest people ... all the kuffars are there." Kuffar is the Arabic term for non-believer.

Shortly after 7 p.m. Friday, Daoud met in the suburb of Villa Park with the undercover agent who claimed to be from New York, and the two drove to downtown Chicago, where the restaurants and bars were packed with workers ringing in the weekend on a pleasantly warm evening. According to the affidavit, they entered a parking lot where a Jeep Cherokee containing the phony bomb was parked.

Daoud drove the vehicle and parked in front of a bar that was among the pre-selected targets, then walked a block away and attempted to detonate the device by pressing a triggering mechanism in the presence of the agent, according to the affidavit. He was then arrested.

The court documents do not identify the bar.
Didn't walk away

Prosecutors said Daoud was offered several chances to change his mind and walk away from the plot.

The FBI has used similar tactics in other counterterrorism investigations, deploying undercover agents to engage suspects in talk of terror plots and then provide them with fake explosive devices.

In a 2010 case, a Lebanese immigrant took what he thought was a bomb and dropped it into a trash bin near Chicago's Wrigley Field. In a 2009 case, agents provided a Jordanian man with a fake truck bomb that he used to try to blow up a 60-story office tower in Dallas.

The affidavit said the Daoud was active in jihadist Internet forums and was accessing articles written by Anwar al-Awlaki, the U.S.-born radical cleric who became a key figure in the Yemen-based al-Qaeda offshoot known as al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula.

Al-Awlaki was killed in a U.S. drone strike in Yemen last year.

In his communications with one of the FBI agents about possible targets, Daoud allegedly said he wanted to carry out an attack that would kill a large number of people.

"I wanted something that's ... massive; I want something that's gonna make it in the news," he wrote, according to the affidavit. "I want to get to like, for me I want to get the most evil place, but I want to get a more populated place."
© The Associated Press, 2012
The Canadian Press

Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: GAP on October 18, 2012, 16:04:55
 Peer Khairi didn't like wife's demand for equal rights, trial hears
By Michele Mandel ,Toronto Sun Wednesday, October 17, 2012
Article Link (http://)
 
Peer Khairi was miserable in Canada: the Afghan immigrant complained that he had no job, he couldn’t speak the language, his kids were becoming Westernized and his wife was no longer subservient.

“He told me his wife had changed,” recalled Neelab Subhani, a settlement counsellor at the Afghan Women’s Organization who met with Khairi in 2007. “He told me, ‘Here there is more rights for women.’ So his wife was saying he has to give her equal rights.”

In Afghanistan, women disobey the male head of their family at their peril. A year after he made those complaints, Khairi savagely butchered his errant spouse.

Randjida Khairi, 53, was killed in a bloodbath of rage on March 18, 2008 inside the family’s apartment on the West Mall. After her husband called 911, police found her petite lifeless body on a mattress drenched through with her blood, her throat slit so deeply that she was almost decapitated, her chest and back riddled with five plunging knife wounds.

Her husband of 30 years admits inflicting the horrific injuries on his second wife, but maintains he didn’t have the necessary legal intent for murder. In fact, it appears defence lawyer Christopher Hicks may argue Khairi was provoked into killing the 86-pound Randjida: He spent a mystifying time asking Subhani about phrases in Dari that were so “repulsive and profoundly insulting” for an Afghan that they “could not be ignored and you can’t walk away after saying them.”

Crown prosecutors Robert Kenny and Amanda Camara allege Khairi, 65, murdered his wife because she had become too permissive, too Canadian it seems, by allowing their six children to dress and date as they liked instead of maintaining his strict rules of their birthplace.

After leaving Afghanistan, the Khairis lived in India before moving to Canada in 2003. Khairi came to the Afghan Women’s Organization office in 2007 for help in filling out applications for Canadian citizenship. During their two-hour meeting, Subhani said he confided that unlike the rest of his family, he was finding it difficult to adjust to the new ways of this country.

“It was hard for him coming to Canada,” she recalled. “He said the kids are young, more open-minded, they would not listen to him.”

Not only were his disobedient children showing disrespect, so too was his wife with her newfound ideas about women’s equality. “He was sad a little bit,” Subhani recalled. “I could see deep down he’s not happy.”

Shortly before she was slain, Randjida was making confessions of her own.

Anisa Sharifi is another settlement counsellor from the Afghan Women’s Organization. She first met the family in 2006 to help them with their welfare applications and didn’t hear from them again until Randjida called her several months before she was killed.

“She told me she doesn’t want to be living with her husband anymore and asked me how to go through the process of separation,” Sharifi told Khairi’s second-degree murder trial.
More on link
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Hamish Seggie on October 19, 2012, 16:45:19
That's rich - he was provoked. What balderdash .....utter crap.

It's not a defence IMO. Maybe his lawyer can house him ......
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: foresterab on November 30, 2012, 17:06:24
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/story/2012/11/30/bc-rebecca-rubin-eco-terrorism.html

Not the most recent of threads but the best location I could find for it:

B.C. 'eco-terrorism' suspect to plead guilty in U.S.
CBC News Posted: Nov 30, 2012 8:13 AM PT Last Updated: Nov 30, 2012 9:44 AM PT Read 28 comments28
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A B.C. woman connected to what the FBI calls the largest case of domestic terrorism in U.S. history is expected to plead guilty to all but the most serious of 10 charges against her.

Rebecca Rubin, 39, turned herself in to U.S. authorities at the border in Blaine, Wash., on Thursday after working out a plea agreement for her part in a series of spectacular arsons more than a decade ago.

According to the FBI, the Canadian citizen was one of more than a dozen members of a cell of the Earth Liberation Front, a radical group that firebombed businesses and government buildings across five U.S. states in the name of defending the environment.

The charges against Rubin are related to the firebombing of wild horse corrals in Oregon and California, and setting fire to a ski resort in Colorado between 1996 and 2001.

No one was killed in the fires, but they did cause an estimated $40 million in damage.

In 2008, the FBI offered a $50,000 reward for tips leading to Rubin's arrest, noting she may have been living in Nelson, B.C. In 2009, the agency issued at second bulletin saying she might be in Vancouver.

Approached RCMP in 2009
Vancouver lawyer Ian Donaldson said Rubin approached him three years ago looking to turn herself in, but the RCMP did not seem too interested in arresting her.

Donaldson said his client was not taken into custody by the RCMP at that time. Instead she spent the next three years working out a plea agreement, according to her U.S. lawyer.

Donaldson did not say where Rubin had been living in Canada, but did say she decided to turn herself in to deal with the charges so she could move on with her life.

In 2008 and 2009 the FBI issued bulletins saying Rebecca Rubin was likely hiding out in B.C. (FBI)"She's certainly remorseful for her actions and feels ashamed of decisions she made. I think that as is the case with many people with the benefit of maturity you see some of your former actions very differently," Donaldson said.

Plea deal took 3 years
Rubin's Oregon lawyer, Rick Troberman, said working out Rubin's plea agreement with U.S. prosecutors took time.

"Rebecca has concluded — and rightfully so — it's time to put this matter behind her. I'm comfortable we will work out a reasonable deal."

Troberman said Rubin will plead guilty to all but the most serious charge of using a destructive device, which carries a mandatory 30-year prison term.

Oregon Assistant United States Attorney Stephen Peifer confirmed Rubin is co-operating with authorities.

"It's very significant that she's decided to co-operate and turn herself in," he said.

After making an appearance in U.S. District Court in Seattle on Thursday, Rubin is expected to be transferred in custody to Oregon to face trial.

10 co-conspirators sentenced already
In 2007, 10 of Rubin's co-conspirators were sentenced to prison sentences ranging from three to 13 years. Two were sent to special Communications Management Units (CMU) normally reserved for al Qaeda-type terrorists.

Rubin's U.S. lawyer said it is unlikely she will be sent to a CMU prison, where communication and visits are severely restricted, because of her plea agreement, but she can expect a similar sentence after she pleads guilty in Oregon to most of the charges.

Rubin is facing eight counts of arson in the Oct. 19, 1998, fires that destroyed Two Elk Lodge and other buildings at the Vail ski area in Eagle County, Colo.

She was also charged in California with conspiracy, arson, and using a destructive device in the Oct. 15, 2001, fire at the BLM Litchfield Wild Horse and Burro Corrals near Susanville, Calif.

Each count of arson and attempted arson carries a mandatory minimum sentence of five years in prison, up to a maximum of 20 years.

Use of a destructive device in relation to a crime of violence carries a mandatory consecutive sentence of 30 years in prison.

Conspiracy carries a maximum sentence of five years. Each count in the three indictments carries a potential fine of up to $250,000.

Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Larry Strong on January 21, 2013, 09:17:02
2 Canadians among militants killed in Algeria siege, reports say

This has not been confirmed by Ottawa yet.....


http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2013/01/21/algeria-hostage-canadians.html

Quote
Algerian forces have found the bodies of two Canadian Islamist fighters at the remote gas plant that was the scene of a hostage-taking last week that has left at least 81 people dead, reports say.
 
Documents found on the bodies of two militants had identified them as Canadians, an Algerian security source told Reuters.
 
The Canadian government said Monday it's aware of reports that Canadians may have been involved in the four-day hostage situation at the Ain Amenas natural gas plant.

'We are pursuing all appropriate channels to seek further information and are in close contact with Algerian authorities.'—Department of Foreign Affairs spokeswoman Chrystiane Roy

"We are pursuing all appropriate channels to seek further information and are in close contact with Algerian authorities," Department of Foreign Affairs spokeswoman Chrystiane Roy told CBC News on Monday.
 
"Canada condemns in the strongest possible terms this deplorable and cowardly attack and all terrorist groups which seek to create and perpetuate insecurity in the Sahel countries of West Africa."

Death toll rises past 80

Authorities said the takeover was carried out Wednesday by 32 men from six countries, under the command from afar of the one-eyed Algerian bandit Moktar Belmoktar, founder of the Masked Brigade, based in Mali.
In this image made from video, individuals believed to be hostages kneel in the sand with their hands in the air at an unknown location in Algeria. (Ennahar TV/Associated Press)
Armed with heavy machine-guns, rocket launchers, missiles and grenades, the militants singled out foreign workers — from countries including Japan, Britain, the Philippines and Romania — at the plant, killing some of them on the spot and attaching explosive belts to others.
 
Algerian forces stormed the gas plant on Saturday, bringing the four-day hostage situation to a violent end. Algerian authorities began searching the refinery for explosive traps left behind by the attackers and found dozens more bodies. At least 25 more bodies were found Sunday, but many were so badly disfigured that it was unclear whether they were hostages or militants, a security official said.
 
At last count, at least 32 Islamist militants and 23 hostages were killed, according to the Algerian government.
 
Confirmed dead so far include:
Six from the Philippines.
Three from Britain.
Two from Romania.
One each from the U.S. and France.

Many hostages remain unaccounted for, including 10 Japanese workers, according to their employer JGC Corp.
 
Five Norwegian employees of Statoil are still missing, the energy company said Sunday, and the U.K. government said three other Britons are still missing and feared dead.
 
Four Filipino workers are unaccounted for, said a government spokesman in Manila, and two Malaysians are missing, its government said.
 
The number of possible American hostages is still unclear. One Texan is dead, the U.S. has confirmed. The militants at first said they were holding seven American hostages, but there has been no official confirmation if any Americans are unaccounted for.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: jollyjacktar on January 21, 2013, 17:29:24
2 Canadians among militants killed in Algeria siege, reports say

This has not been confirmed by Ottawa yet.....


http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2013/01/21/algeria-hostage-canadians.html

At least they won't get a second chance to cause trouble, wherever they're from.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Hamish Seggie on January 21, 2013, 19:32:17
No sympathy for them, if this is true. 
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: milnews.ca on January 21, 2013, 20:59:22
Another tidbit of info via Reuters wire service (http://ca.reuters.com/article/topNews/idCABRE90H1DE20130121)....
Quote
The Islamist attack on the sprawling desert gas complex in southern Algeria that triggered one of the worst hostage crises in years was conceived in Mali and coordinated by a mystery Canadian named only as Chedad, the Algerian prime minister said.

(....)

Algerian Prime Minister Abdelmalek Sellal said the plot had been hatched in war-ravaged Mali and the attackers had traveled through Niger and Libya before slipping into Algeria.

The jihadists were said to come from Egypt, Mauritania, Niger, Tunisia, Mali, Algeria and, in one case, from Canada. The Canadian, identified initially as Chedad, was coordinating the raiders, Sellal said ....
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Thucydides on January 21, 2013, 22:25:28
And the National Post reports:

http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/01/21/two-canadians-explosives-experts-and-a-leader-who-ordered-a-mass-execution-among-terrorists-who-seized-algerian-gas-plant/

Quote
Two Canadians, explosives experts and a leader who ordered a ‘mass execution’ among terrorists who seized Algerian gas plant

MAR OUALI and KARIM KEBIR, Associated Press | Jan 21, 2013 6:46 PM ET
More from Associated Press

Anis Belghoul / The Associated PressAlgerian firemen carry a coffin containing a person killed during the gas facility hostage situation at the morgue in Ain Amenas, Algeria on Monday.
 
The hostage-taking at a remote Algerian gas plant was carried out by 30 militants from across the northern swath of Africa and two from Canada, authorities said. The militants, who wore military uniforms and knew the layout, included explosives experts who rigged it with bombs and a leader whose final order was to kill all the captives.

The operation also had help with inside knowledge – a former driver at the plant, Algeria’s prime minister said Monday.


The Associated PressThe damaged natural gas plant after Islamist militants attacked it and took hostages at Ain Amenas, Algeria.
In all, 38 workers and 29 militants died, the Algerian prime minister said Monday, offering the government’s first detailed account of four days of chaos that ended with a bloody military raid he defended as the only way possible to end the standoff. Five foreigners are still missing.

“You may have heard the last words of the terrorist chief,” Algerian Prime Minister Abdelmalek Sellal told reporters. “He gave the order for all the foreigners to be killed, so there was a mass execution, many hostages were killed by a bullet to the head.”

Monday’s account offered the first Algerian government narrative of the standoff, from the moment of the attempted bus hijacking on Wednesday to the moment when the attackers prepared Saturday to detonate bombs across the sprawling complex. That’s when Algerian special forces moved in for the second and final time.

All but one of the dead victims – an Algerian security guard – were foreigners. The dead hostages included seven Japanese workers, six Filipinos, three energy workers each from the U.S. and Britain, two from Romania and one worker from France.

The prime minister said three attackers were captured but did not specify their nationalities or their conditions or say where they were being held.

He said the Islamists included a former driver at the complex from Niger and that the militants “knew the facility’s layout by heart.” The vast complex is deep in the Sahara, 800 miles (1,300 miles) south of Algiers, with a network of roads and walkways for the hundreds of workers who keep it running.

The attackers wore military uniforms, according to state television, bolstering similar accounts by former hostages that the attackers didn’t just shoot their way in.

“Our attention was drawn by a car. It was at the gate heading toward the production facility. Four attackers stepped out of a car that had flashing lights on top of it,” one of the former hostages, Liviu Floria, a 45-year-old mechanic from Romania, told The Associated Press.

Related
Two Canadians among terrorists in Algeria ‘inside job’ siege of gas plant, PM says
Two Canadians among terrorists in Algeria ‘inside job’ siege of gas plant, PM says
Death toll in Algerian terrorist siege rises to 81 as 25 more bodies found in gas plant
Bloody special forces raid ends Algeria gas plant hostage standoff; death toll could rise
The militants had said during the standoff that their band included people from Canada, and hostages who had escaped recalled hearing at least one of the militants speaking English with a North American accent.

The Algerian premier said the Canadians were of Arab descent. He further said the militant cell also included men from Egypt, Mali, Niger, Mauritania and Tunisia, as well as three Algerians. Officials in Canada could not confirm that any of the attackers were from there.


The Associated PressMilitary uniforms displayed for the media after Islamist militants attacked the natural gas plant and took hostages at Ain Amenas, Algeria.
“The announcement of the Algerian prime minister is fine, but we need verification. It could be a forged document. We need to confirm,” said a Canadian official who was not authorized to speak publicly and requested anonymity.

Three Americans died in the attack and seven made it out safely, a U.S. official in Washington said, speaking on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to speak publicly. The bodies have been recovered, the official said.

An earlier report from an Algerian security official that as many as 80 people had died in the assault – including hostages and attackers – appears to have overstated the toll, but the official had cautioned that many bodies discovered during a sweep of the facility were badly disfigured, making it difficult to reach a total.

Algeria has not reported any military deaths from four days of confronting the fighters. Algerian authorities are typically reluctant to announce military losses.


Handout / AFP / Getty ImagesAn undated handout picture released by the BP petroleum company on January 16, 2013, shows their operation at the In Amenas field in the Sahara desert, 1,300 kilometres southeast of Algiers, close to the Libyan border. A military operation was ongoing Thursday at the Algerian gas plant where Islamist gunmen were holding dozens of Western hostages, the governments of Britain, France, and Norway said on January 17, 2013.
The attack began early Wednesday with the attempted hijacking of two buses filled with workers outside the complex. Repelled by Algerian forces, the militants moved on the main complex, armed with missiles, mortars and bombs for their three explosives experts, said Prime Minister Sellal. They split into two groups, with one infiltrating the complex’s living quarters and the other the gas plant.

Sellal praised the quick wits of a guard who tripped an alarm that stopped the flow of gas and warned workers of an imminent attack.

“It was thanks to him that the factory was protected,” he said.

Floria, the former hostage from Romania, remembered the moment when the power was cut.

“I ran together with other expats and hid under the desks in my office, locking the door. Attackers went scanning the office facility kicking the doors in. Luckily our door did not break and they went on to other offices,” he said. “Locals were freed, the attackers made clear from the beginning that only foreigners were a target. Expats were detained.”


Algerie TV / The Associated PressIn this image taken from Algerian TV broadcast on Sunday, showing what it said was the aftermath of the hostage crisis at the remote Ain Amenas gas facility in Algeria.
“The perception of time changes. Seconds become hours. You feel you are losing your mind. I went through this for almost 40 hours,” he said.

The prime minister said the heavily armed militants had prepared the attack for two months. He said the attackers arrived from northern Mali and had planned to return there with the foreign hostages. Seven French citizens taken hostage in recent years are thought to be held by al-Qaida linked groups in northern Mali.

Sellal justified the helicopter attack Thursday on vehicles filled with hostages out of the fear the kidnappers were attempting to escape.

In a statement, the Masked Brigade, the group that claimed to have masterminded the takeover, has warned of more such attacks against any country backing military intervention in neighboring Mali, where the French are trying to stop an advance by Islamic extremists. Algeria, despite its government’s reservations about the French decision, is allowing French jets to overfly.


ANI/HandoutMokhtar Belmokhtar - The daring raid on the BP facility at In Amenas was carried out in the name of Belmokhtar, who lost his left eye in combat and has been reported dead at least twice, most recently in June.
Col. Thierry Burkhard, the French military spokesman, said he did not know if militants in Mali were aware of the events in Algeria.

“However, I’m convinced the terrorist groups in the field have radios, so there’s a strong chance that they’re not only up to date with what’s happening in Algeria but they’re listening to everything that Western journalists are saying about the deployment of different forces in the field,” he said.

The militants’ operation was led by an Algerian, Amine Benchenab, who was known to security services and was killed during the assault, Burkhard added.

Moktar Belmoktar, who is believed to have orchestrated the attack, said in a statement over the weekend that the Algerian site was chosen after the country opened its airspace.

Sellal said negotiating was essentially impossible.

“Their goal was to kidnap foreigners,” he said. “They wanted to flee to Mali with the foreigners, but once they were surrounded they started killing the first hostages.”

He said the assault by Algerian special forces on the plant on Saturday that killed the last group of militants and hostages came after the kidnappers attempted to destroy the complex: “They led us into a real labyrinth, in negotiations that became unreasonable.”

Associated Press reporters Paul Schemm in Rabat, Morocco, Lori Hinnant and Sarah DiLorenzo in Paris, Bradley Klapper in Washington, Rob Gillies in Toronto, and Nicolae Dumitrache and Vadim Ghirda in Pitesti, Romania, contributed to this report
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: milnews.ca on January 24, 2013, 23:09:29
A reminder from a think tank analyst writing for the BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-21179327):
Quote
.... Since 2008, when Canada's anti-terrorism legislation recorded its first conviction, there has been a steady increase in the number of terrorism-related arrests and prosecutions.

Over two dozen Canadians have been arrested or indicted on terrorism-related crimes in Canada and abroad, the vast majority inspired by al-Qaeda.

Canada's spy agency, the Canadian Security Intelligence Service (CSIS), said last year that it was monitoring 250 people suspected of being involved in terrorism, up from 200 in 2010, and it was spending just under half of its $514m (£326m) annual budget on counter-terrorism.

A "massive, massive effort" for a country with a population of 34 million people, according to CSIS Director Richard Fadden ....
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Thucydides on February 08, 2013, 23:01:35
A look at how Canadians are being radicalized. If the insights in the article are true, then there are perhaps some openings to interrupt the process of conversion, or otherwise break the cycle. Prevention is always easier than having to play "whack a mole" with dedicated converts to some warrior cult:

http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/02/08/joining-the-world-of-radical-islam-extremism-offers-troubled-young-canadians-a-reason-to-feel-superior/

Quote
Joining the world of radical Islam: Extremism offers troubled young Canadians a reason to feel superior

Stewart Bell | Feb 8, 2013 8:27 PM ET | Last Updated: Feb 8, 2013 8:32 PM ET
More from Stewart Bell | @StewartBellNP

Two years ago, an Australian police officer named Joe Ilardi arrived in Toronto to try to answer a disturbing question: what was turning some young Canadians into raving Islamists who yearned to wage anti-Western violence at home and abroad?

With the help of the RCMP, Senior Sgt. Ilardi interviewed seven young Toronto men he defined as “Canadian Muslim radicals.” All but one, an immigrant from Pakistan, were Canadian-born. Four had converted to Islam, including a former Mohawk Warrior.

After meeting the men several times for up to six hours in total, Sgt. Ilardi came to an unconventional conclusion: while they had bought into the narrative that justifies violence as a response to the West’s so-called “war on Islam,” they had done so largely for personal reasons.

They were not the downtrodden seeking political justice. Rather, they were deeply troubled youths who had found, in extremism, a reason to feel superior. In their minds, they had joined an exclusive fraternity that knew the truth. They weren’t losers after all; they were better than everyone else.

“The appeal of an ideology which replaced feelings of inferiority with superiority, or which provided clarity of purpose where previously there was only purposelessness, for some men, seemed irresistible,” noted Sgt. Ilardi, a member of the Counter-Terrorism Coordination Unit of the Melbourne-based Victoria Police.

His conclusions on how they become infatuated with jihadist ideology offer insights into a problem that is putting Canadians at risk and damaging Canada’s international reputation as more Canadian terrorists are identified overseas — most recently in Bulgaria and Algeria.

This week, a suspected Canadian member of the Lebanese terrorist group Hezbollah was blamed for the July 18, 2012 bombing of a bus full of Israeli tourists on their way to the Black Sea coast. An Australian is also suspected of involvement. Six died in the blast.

Two weeks ago, Algerian Prime Minister Abdelmalik Sellal said a pair of Canadians were involved in last month’s siege at the In Amenas gas plant that left 38 workers dead. Witnesses told reporters one of the attackers was a blonde-haired Canadian, possibly of Chechen origin.

The RCMP is investigating but has not yet publicly confirmed any of the attackers were Canadians. “Canadian officials are on the ground in Algeria working with Algerian officials to get the necessary information,” Foreign Affairs Minister John Baird’s spokesman, Rick Roth, said Friday.

Another Canadian, William Plotnikov, a former Toronto boxer and Seneca College student, was killed by Russian security forces in Dagestan last July while fighting with Islamist rebels. He had become radicalized by a Toronto imam after converting, according to his father.

Canadian volunteers have been turning up in Somalia as well. In 2009, a half-dozen Somali-Canadians youths left to join the al-Qaeda-linked Al Shabab. In 2011, a 25-year-old was arrested at Toronto’s Pearson airport as he was allegedly leaving to join.

“CSIS is aware of at least 45 Canadians, possibly as many as 60, many in their early twenties, who have travelled or attempted to travel from Canada to Somalia, Afghanistan, Pakistan and Yemen to join al Qaeda-affiliated organizations and engage in terrorism-related activities,” Richard Fadden, the Director of the Canadian Security Intelligence Service, testified last April.

Related
Terrorists responsible for Bulgaria bus bombing hiding in same country: senior official
Bulgaria bus bombing suspect had real Canadian passport, lived in B.C. before return to Lebanon at age 12
‘Left-wing extremists,’ anti-government Freemen among Canada’s top domestic terror threats, report reveals
Islamist extremists radicalizing Canadians at ‘a large number of venues,’ secret report reveals
As convicted terrorists face possible release, Canada faced with growing problem: how do you rehabilitate them?
The flow of wide-eyed Canadians to overseas hotspots, and fears they could return to carry out attacks at home, led to the introduction of legislation last year specifically making it illegal to leave Canada with the intent of committing terrorism.

Like Canada, Australia has not been successfully attacked on its soil, but it has been experiencing similar problems with radicalization — which prompted Sgt. Ilardi’s trip to Canada between March and June 2011. While he is still finalizing his research paper for publication, he shared his findings with the National Post.

Seven may be a small sample size from which to draw conclusions, but Sgt. Ilardi has credentials. A police officer for two decades, he has been working in counter-terrorism for 10 years and has a PhD in the role of intelligence in counter-terrorism. He is part of a team studying radicalization at Monash University in Melbourne.

His analysis of the Canadian extremists he met identified explanations that run counter to the stereotype that depicts extremists as inevitable products of the injustices of the Western world. In fact, he said most of the interviewees were politically unaware before they were indoctrinated into radical Islam.

Certainly, they were not living the Canadian dream. They had come from broken homes, and had drug, alcohol and gambling addictions. Some had been imprisoned for violent crimes. One had converted to Islam moments after he had intended to take his own life.

What extremism gave them was a perch from which to look down on other Canadians as ignorant and misguided. “These feelings were in stark contrast with those typically experienced by these men prior to their immersion in the world of radical Islam,” Sgt. Ilardi said.

A 2009 paper on radicalization, published on the RCMP website, came to a somewhat similar conclusion, noting extremism provided followers with “a means of explaining the world but — just as importantly — with a sense of personal meaning and a cause for which to fight.”

Ever since the 9/11 attacks, Canadians have been puzzling over the motives of the extremists among them, from the Khadrs and Ontario al-Qaeda member Mohammad Jabarrah to Ottawa’s Momin Khawaja and the Toronto 18. In 2010, three men were arrested in Ontario over an alleged plot to conduct attacks in Canada.

The latest case involves an unnamed Lebanese who moved to Vancouver with his parents at the age of eight. Although he left Canada four years later, he had by then acquired a Canadian passport. Last June, he allegedly used it to enter Bulgaria to conduct a bombing for Hezbollah.

The limited time he spent in Canada suggests he was radicalized in Lebanon, but as a Canadian citizen, he could have returned at any time. Instead, he allegedly chose to use his Canadian passport to kill tourists in Europe.

The Canadians interviewed by Sgt. Ilardi were also eager to engage in violence. They wanted to fight abroad. Significantly, they didn’t. They were deterred by the arrests of other extremists, or came to realize the error of their ways, in some cases when the anti-Western narrative they had been spoon-fed failed to match their positive interactions with Canadians.

“Just as personal relationships proved instrumental in these men’s radicalization,” Sgt. Ilardi noted, “so too were they in helping individuals reassess and recalibrate the theological and practical implications of engaging in jihad.”

National Post

• Email: sbell@nationalpost.com | Twitter: StewartBellNP
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Journeyman on February 08, 2013, 23:33:14
Interesting article. 

I think Stewart Bell is one of the few credible Canadian 'journalists' in this field. He seems to "do his homework" rather than just skew cherry-picked tidbits to fit a preconceived agenda.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: jollyjacktar on February 09, 2013, 09:39:51
IIRC many of the 70's terrorists in Europe such as Carlos "the Jackal" came from pretty good backgrounds too.  That is to say they were not slum dwellers but bored, spoiled rich kids in some cases.  Seems as if things don't particularly change in the West.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Oldgateboatdriver on February 09, 2013, 10:16:43
Not exactly a new angle for those that have seriously studied terrorism in first world countries...but a fact based position that never seem to find favour with the press and politicians.

I guess it's because doing something about it would be a huge undertaking with little to actually report on or show up as a result.

For anyone interested in more on the same topic, I highly  recommend Harvard Professor Louise Richardson's "What Terrorists Want - Understanding the Ennemy, Containing the Threat", 2006, Random House, New-York.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Hamish Seggie on February 09, 2013, 10:38:51
IIRC many of the 70's terrorists in Europe such as Carlos "the Jackal" came from pretty good backgrounds too.  That is to say they were not slum dwellers but bored, spoiled rich kids in some cases.  Seems as if things don't particularly change in the West.
You are correct. A number of terrorists did come from middle to upper class families.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: E.R. Campbell on February 09, 2013, 10:53:44
And more on this, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the Globe and Mail:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/commentary/canadas-looking-for-terrorists-in-all-the-wrong-places/article8410607/
My emphasis added
Quote
Canada’s looking for terrorists in all the wrong places

DOUG SAUNDERS
The Globe and Mail

Published Saturday, Feb. 09 2013

Somewhere in Canada today, someone is making plans to set off a bomb that will kill as many people as possible.

We can be fairly certain of this. The past month alone saw three Canadians accused of helping carry out acts of terrorism, two in Algeria and one in Bulgaria. While Canada has very low rates of domestic terrorism and violent extremism, those rates are not zero. There are believed to be several dozen Canadians actively involved with violent Islamist groups. Someone, almost certainly, is planning the next explosion.

That leads to two questions: How do we find him? And how do we prevent such violent extremists from being created on (or imported onto) Canadian soil?

We now have far better answers than we did a few years ago. In fact, we have a very clear picture of what makes people into violent radicals – and what doesn’t.

This week, a large-scale research report by Canada’s spy agency, obtained by Globe and Mail reporter Colin Freeze, reveals that much of what we tend to believe is wrong. In A Study of Radicalization: The Making of Islamist Extremists in Canada Today, the Canadian Security Intelligence Service analyzes data on all known Canadian extremists.

They are almost always native-born Canadians, rarely immigrants, and never refugees. They tend to have “a high level of academic achievement,” often a university degree, especially in “scientific, computer and engineering fields.”

Not only are they not immigrants, but they don’t tend to be found within “parallel society” immigrant enclaves. “None appeared to have been marginalized within Canadian society,” CSIS says, and the great majority appear “highly integrated into Canadian society.” And they aren’t radicalized by attending a mosque.

This report’s findings are virtually identical to those of several larger studies conducted recently. Britain’s MI5 analyzed several hundred violent extremists and found similar non-immigrant (or convert) backgrounds – and that, as in Canada, these terrorists don’t come from religious backgrounds. “Most are religious novices,” the security service concluded, and, in fact, “there is evidence that a well-established religious identity actually protects against violent radicalization.”

Likewise, Mark Fallon, a former U.S. counterterrorism officer, found that migration experiences, religious traditions and theology almost never caused radicalism; it was a matter of local, personal influences persuading people to believe a political narrative.

There are important conclusions we can draw from these findings. The first is that immigrants, and immigrant communities, have little directly to do with terrorism. They are among those very unlikely to become radicalized. It’s not a matter of people bringing foreign attitudes and beliefs to Canada; extremists gained their political ideas here, often from local influences.

As a result, revoking the citizenship of people convicted of terrorism – as Immigration Minister Jason Kenney proposed this week – will do little to combat or deter extremism. Nor will spying on communities of ordinary religious Muslim immigrants, as the New York Police Department admitted it had done for six years (and it didn’t find a single piece of actionable evidence after investigating thousands of people). As the CSIS report grimly concludes, it’s not that easy.

Second, this isn’t a matter of religion causing extremism. Yes, Islamic terrorists are, by definition, very religious, but they usually adopt this religion after becoming radicalized politically. The path from strict religious faith to violence simply doesn’t exist – in fact, the most religious are among the least likely to become extremists.

This is a political movement based on a territorial claim (what CSIS calls the “common narrative,” which involves securing the “land of Islam” and attacking those who invade or humiliate it). As such, it has more in common with earlier terrorist movements (the IRA, the FLQ) than it does with any widespread beliefs within diaspora communities.

This doesn’t make things easy for police or governments. It’s a criminal tendency, neither imported nor theological, not rooted in communities or faiths. At the very least, we now know where we shouldn’t bother looking.


But, Doug Saunders is wrong ... while I agree that religion doesn't, normally, cause extremism, Islamic terrorists, as Saunders himself points out, "are, by definition, very religious ... they usually adopt this religion after becoming radicalized politically." Being very religious they will seek out mosques that support their radical ideas and that is one of the places where the security services should look.

Saunders is flogging an idea and a book, The Myth of the Muslim Tide (http://www.amazon.com/dp/0307951170), that have some basis in fact but are, at their root, fed more by politically correct, ideological hope than real research.


Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Robert0288 on February 10, 2013, 16:40:30
That is to say they were not slum dwellers but bored, spoiled rich kids in some cases.  Seems as if things don't particularly change in the West.

Sounds very similar to the 'professional' protester I ran into at universities.  These are the same people who seemed to latch onto occupy movement, G7/G8 protests, Student riots in quebec last summer, and even the idle no more movement.  I'm definitely NOT saying that these are terrorists.  But rather the same base of people in terms of age, socio-economic status and education  which appear to be the most easily radicalized into political groups regardless of the groups political outlook.  (eg; left wing, right wing, religious, environmental etc...)

Quote
For anyone interested in more on the same topic, I highly  recommend Harvard Professor Louise Richardson's "What Terrorists Want - Understanding the Ennemy, Containing the Threat", 2006, Random House, New-York.
Thanks I'll take a look at it.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Old Sweat on February 10, 2013, 16:56:42
And the same segment of society spawned many of the radicals of the sixties and the terrorist groups of the seventies. There must be something, perhaps it is a sense of injustice for having so much while others have so little or maybe just boredom or perhaps being over-educated and under-challenged, that led many to social activism and a very few to gravitate to extreme points of view and action.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Colin P on February 11, 2013, 13:24:31
Having been to numerous Mosques here, I think I will disagree with some of the report. There are immigrants here that are bidding their time and work slowly and carefully on grooming people for radical Islamist groups. As membership in these "closed clubs" is limited to people with  I suspect CSIS has a harder time penetrating them then they would like to admit. I also suspect that Canada, like Malaysia offers to many other benefits to radical groups for them to attack here. That may change at some point. But for the moment they don't like to poop in their own bed. I do agree that the people the radicals target for long term grooming and recruitment are likely the more educated as that makes them a high value commodity. Far better to recruit fighters from places where life is hard and people are tough. The recruited Canadians will be planners, builders, logistical support and technical support types.   
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: kevincanada on February 11, 2013, 22:36:15
I once told a Muslim man from Pakistan that I can't stand catholicism.  Boy did that peak his interest and I got a ear full too  ;D

Here is the original report on the MI5 findings.  http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/aug/20/uksecurity.terrorism1
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: jollyjacktar on February 23, 2013, 21:20:45
A good article from the SOMNIA website.  Shared under the provisions of Sec. 29 of the Copyright Act.

Quote
Cree jihadist: How a boy from a Saskatchewan reserve came to embrace Islamist extremism

Stewart Bell | Feb 22, 2013 9:06 PM ET | Last Updated: Feb 23, 2013 4:24 PM ET
More from Stewart Bell | @StewartBellNP

A Cree who wears a traditional coonskin cap he made himself, Dawood is a member of the James Smith First Nation in Saskatchewan. He is also a strident advocate of armed jihad.

At Toronto mosques, he has handed out hundreds of DVDs of lectures by Anwar al-Awlaki, the American-born radical cleric who urged his followers to fight the “evil” West — until a Hellfire missile found him in Yemen.

“For us as Muslims, our religion teaches that we’re brothers and sisters,” said Dawood, 33, who said he feared repercussions if his last name was published. “You have to stand up for your brothers and sisters, you have to defend them.”

Young, Canadian-born and online, Dawood is the embodiment of the Islamist extremists the government has called a top national security concern. He is also a newcomer to his faith, having converted to Islam less than five years ago, when he was drunk and suicidal.

And yet he has already attracted the attention of police and intelligence agencies. Canadian Security Intelligence Service officers have questioned him several times, he said, and an Australian counter-terrorism officer interviewed him two years ago for a study on “Canadian Muslim radicals.”

Nonetheless, Dawood said he was not an extremist. He said he opposed terrorism and two years ago had called CSIS to report that he had been approached by a Pakistani-Canadian who wanted to blow up the CN Tower. “That’s not the prophet’s teaching,” he said. “He never taught anything that was, ‘Go kill them wherever you see them.’”

But he is all for waging what he calls “defensive jihad,” which he defined as “defending against people who are in Muslim lands who shouldn’t be.” While he once wanted to travel to Yemen, because Awlaki was there, he said he decided against it. “I was going to go but I thought of my kids,” he said. Instead, he encourages other Canadians to make their way to places like Somalia to take up arms.

He also said he had solicited donations in Toronto for Taliban families, even though his brother is a member of the Canadian Forces. “He won’t even talk to me,” he said of his brother. “I’ve made it very clear to my brother that I disagree with him being in this military.”

In an interview, Dawood called Islam the most important thing in his life. Meeting with a reporter at a McDonald’s in Sarnia, he wore a Muslim skullcap and a thin beard. His 10-year-old son wore a T-shirt with a large hole in the front. His mother had cut out the shirt’s logo, a symbol of an animal, since idolatry is forbidden for observant Muslims.

It was a weekday but the boy was home from school because it was Valentine’s Day — also forbidden. A post on Dawood’s Facebook page explained that taking part in non-Muslim celebrations was prohibited because it “implies that one is pleased with their false beliefs and practices.”

While he said he had not taken part in any terrorist plots, he acknowledged the government considered him a terrorism supporter. He said CSIS officers had labelled him an extremist and called his views inappropriate.

Even the Muslim leader who converted Dawood said he disagreed with his views on violence. “He’s unstable,” said Muhammad Robert Heft. “The bottom line with Dawood is he doesn’t know very much about the religion.” He said Dawood relied too much on the Internet. “He follows Mufti Yahoo or Sheikh Google. I think with him it’s got to do more with wanting attention.”

But attention-seeking fanatics who sanctify violence with half-baked scripture can be dangerous. Several members of the Toronto 18 terrorist group that planned attacks in Southern Ontario in 2006 were converts. Soon after he converted, William Plotnikov, a Toronto boxer and Seneca College student, left Canada to join an Islamist rebel group in the Caucuses. Russian security forces shot him dead last July.

“Converts in particular are prone to extreme views because of their newfound zeal,” CSIS wrote as long ago as 2004 in Canadian Converts to Radical Islam, a report released under the Access to Information Act. “Al-Qaeda and like-minded organizations are aware of the usefulness of converts for a variety of purposes: spreading propaganda, logistical support and knowledge of the West, among others.”

An outspoken critic of extremism, Mr. Heft said that without proper support, converts can become vulnerable to a hardline message, particularly if they are not accepted into the larger Muslim community.

“So they get disenfranchised and then they become bitter. And when they become bitter they end up finding somebody who has an understanding of the religion that fits in with their feeling of being an outcast,” he said. “It happens not only to new Muslims but newly practising Muslims.”

Dawood’s Facebook page is a blend of Islamic and aboriginal causes: a video that calls democracy a sin; another on the “sacred war” in Mali; and Idle No More slogans. He runs an organization called Northern Dawah that hands out Korans to aboriginal people and claims to have converted some of them.

“Being aboriginal puts me on a platform that you deal with racism on a daily basis,” he said in a YouTube video about his conversion. One of his “favourite videos” on YouTube is “Last Message to the West,” which shows Awlaki in a camouflage jacket declaring war against America. “I specifically invite youth to either fight in the West or join their brothers on the fronts of jihad — Afghanistan, Iraq, Somalia,” Awlaki says in the clip, his parting shot before a drone-fired missile killed him.

The tattoo on Dawood’s forearm, which he got in Thailand, symbolizes peace, love and happiness. But his life has been a struggle for all three.

Born with fetal alcohol syndrome, Dawood grew up in Keeler, Sask. His mother, a Cree, was a prostitute and alcoholic who abandoned her children for weeks at a time to party in Moose Jaw. Sometimes she would shave Dawood’s head and send him out to hustle money by pretending to be a cancer patient, he said. His father was a Swede and an abusive drunk who worked on the railroad, he said.

At an early age, he was sent to foster homes where he was sexually abused. He started running away at age 11 and, after beating a man who later died, spent two years at a youth detention facility. He ended up on the streets of Vancouver, addicted to crack cocaine.

Hoping to sober up, he moved to Toronto, Montreal, Thunder Bay and Hamilton, where he joined Mohawk Warriors at a land dispute in Caledonia, Ont. But even after the birth of his son, he couldn’t stop drinking.

In May 2008, he was living in Toronto, collecting welfare and confined to a wheelchair because of a car accident. Child services was after him because he was leaving his son at home alone to go drinking. He said he wrote a suicide note and mixed a lethal cocktail of prescription drugs.

Before he could do it, though, his son appeared and said he loved him. He believed it was a message from Allah, whom he had asked for help after meeting a Muslim on a bus. (He said he had previously turned to Jesus and Buddha, to no effect).

Convinced divine intervention had spared his life, he went to his computer and Googled “convert-to-Islam-Toronto.”

What came up was the website of Paradise 4 Ever, a non-profit that helps Muslim converts. Still drunk, he converted over the phone to Mr. Heft. The next day, he went to the P4E office and Mr. Heft gave him a skullcap, a white robe and money to buy groceries.

Early on, Dawood was drawn to the strict Salafist brand of Islam, which preaches that Muslims must shun Western life and live according to ancient laws and codes. The rigidity worked for him and he clung to it, fearing that straying meant going back to addiction.

Eager to learn but not a strong reader, he watched Awlaki on video. One of the lectures was about jihad. The concept came easily to him, since he already viewed Canada as an occupying power that terrorized and oppressed aboriginal people. That Muslims should also defend themselves from the West was just an extension of that view.

He said he went to a Toronto mosque popular among Afghans and asked how he could support the Taliban. He was given an email account where he could leave messages for people in Pakistan who would arrange money transfers, although he insisted it was only meant for the families of Taliban fighters and not for weapons. Because he had little money himself, he encouraged others to use the system to donate.

In addition, he began burning DVDs of Awlaki’s lectures and distributing them at Toronto mosques, he said. He also began discussing jihad with “brothers,” some of whom wanted to attack Canada and the United States. “I didn’t totally agree with that,” he said.

A few of his acquaintances left for Somalia, Afghanistan and Yemen, he said. “Some have come back, some are still there. Some are still alive,” he said. “My view is, I’m OK with it as long as they’re defending brothers and sisters. I will always have that view and I believe every Muslim should have that view.” But he said his ties to those who had gone off to fight brought him to the attention of CSIS, although he would not co-operate with investigators.

CSIS Director Richard Fadden testified last year that 45 to 60 Canadians had travelled — or attempted to travel — overseas to join “al-Qaeda-affiliated organizations and engage in terrorism-related activities.” A primary concern is that they might survive and return to foment more radicalism and violence.

The government is now considering legislation that would make it a crime to leave Canada for the purposes of participating in terrorist groups. “I disagree with it, of course,” Dawood said. He said Canadians had the right to join overseas jihads. “At the end of the day, there are people who deserve to be protected.”

National Post

sbell@nationalpost.com | Twitter: StewartBellNP

http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/02/22/cree-jihadist-how-a-boy-from-a-saskatchewan-reserve-became-a-national-security-concern/
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Colin P on February 25, 2013, 16:32:02
Just ship him to some 3rd world Islamic country, he will get over soon enough when he see how life really is.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: jollyjacktar on February 25, 2013, 19:09:30
If only we could...
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Target Up on February 25, 2013, 21:36:21
Hmmmm, this can't be right...
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: 57Chevy on February 26, 2013, 16:46:00
Canadian Muslim Lobby Rejects New Terror Laws
 Israel National News  (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/Flash.aspx/262997)
 26 Feb, News Brief is shared with provisions of The Copyright Act

The Canadian Muslim lobby, CAIR-CAN, has launched a campaign against new legislation designed to help intelligence and law enforcement officials in their struggle against terrorism at home, Shalom Toronto reports.

The organization issued a statement issued calling Muslims in Canada to join acts of protest against the legislation, Bill S-7.

The law empowers security forces to make preventive arrests, avoid disclosing evidence to the suspect when necessary and allows them to require prisoners to testify behind closed doors before a judge. The judge, for his part, has the authority to impose a prison sentence of up to one year, if the suspect does not cooperate.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Chris Pook on February 26, 2013, 17:16:34
"Islam will dominate the World"
"Muslims rise against the Crusaders"

Sudden image of dog chasing tail.  And no sense that any appeal to logic would prevail. :gloomy:
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: milnews.ca on February 26, 2013, 17:17:27
Canadian Muslim Lobby Rejects New Terror Laws
 Israel National News  (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/Flash.aspx/262997)
 26 Feb, News Brief is shared with provisions of The Copyright Act

The Canadian Muslim lobby, CAIR-CAN, has launched a campaign against new legislation designed to help intelligence and law enforcement officials in their struggle against terrorism at home, Shalom Toronto reports.

The organization issued a statement issued calling Muslims in Canada to join acts of protest against the legislation, Bill S-7.

The law empowers security forces to make preventive arrests, avoid disclosing evidence to the suspect when necessary and allows them to require prisoners to testify behind closed doors before a judge. The judge, for his part, has the authority to impose a prison sentence of up to one year, if the suspect does not cooperate.
Here's a bit from CAIR-CAN's 22 Feb 13 statement (http://newsletter.caircan.ca/s/1/Ax2y/f3q4YHy/7r1yr) ....
Quote
The Canadian Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR.CAN), a national Muslim civil liberties organization, is calling on supporters and concerned Canadians to immediately contact their federal Members of Parliament asking them to vote against Bill S-7 ....
.... with a bit more in the attached news release.

More on Bill S-7 here (http://www.parl.gc.ca/LegisInfo/BillDetails.aspx?Language=E&billId=5385776&Mode=1) - next step:  back to the House of Commons for Third Reading.

And a bit of background on CAIR-CAN here (http://blogs.ottawacitizen.com/2013/02/04/cair-cans-opposition-to-mosquebuster-speech-still-smacks-of-indirect-intimidation/):
Quote
.... Consider some background on CAIR-CAN, courtesy 2011 testimony by security analyst David Harris before the Standing Senate Committee on Social Affairs, Science and Technology. Harris, director of the International and Terrorist Intelligence Program at INSIGNIS Strategic Research, has been honoured internationally for his work as a counterterrorism expert.

He pointed out to the Senators that CAIR-CAN is the Canadian wing of the Washington-based Council on American-Islamic Relations, which has not only funded by Saudi Arabian sources, but has been named by the U.S. Justice Department as an unindicted co-conspirator connected to the “largest terror-funding trial in U.S. history, the Holy Land Foundation criminal prosecution.” He noted that the prosecution “achieved numerous convictions.”

Furthermore, CAIR-CAN, along with its parent organization, is named as a defendant in the New York City 9/11 lawsuit involving the family of John P. O’Neill, the FBI counterterrorism agent killed in the World Trade Centre attack on Sept. 11, 2001.

CAIR-CAN sometimes gives the appearance of takes its marching orders from its American parent, said Harris, pointing out that under its first chair, Sheema Khan, CAIR-CAN, like U.S. organization, launched various unsuccessful ‘libel lawfare’ suits against those who questioned the group’s activities or motives.

Specifically, Harris reminded the Senators of the “libel lawfare jihad” when CAIR and CAIR-CAN sued various Canadian and American journalists and commentators who questioned the history and agenda of the two affiliated groups. The intent of the lawsuits was “to silence questions about CAIR and CAIR-CAN,” Harris told the committee.

According to Harris, several of CAIR’s senior staff, as well as others connected to the organization, have been convicted and imprisoned for terrorism-related offences. American security experts have described the organization as “Hamas front group an a Muslim Brotherhood front organization.” (See attached articles below.)

Of course, Harris noted, CAIR-CAN associates have repeatedly asserted that their organization is independent of the American group, with its own board of directors and Canadian incorporation. This claim is was contradicted, however, by Sheema Khan who, in 2003, swore an affidavit for the Ontario Supreme Court in connection with a trademark dispute. In the affidavit Khan “states categorically that CAIR-CAN is under the direction and control of the American CAIR organization.” Moreover, Khan, while a senior official of CAIR-CAN, also served on the board of CAIR.

Some journalists have questioned CAIR-CAN’s affiliations, Harris noted, referring to a 2006 article by David Frum that pointed out that 70 per cent of CAIR-CAN revenues went to CAIR.

Muslims, too, have also questioned CAIR-CAN’s bona fides. Author Tarek Fatah, in a 2008 article in the Calgary Herald, observed that CAIR and CAIR-CAN “seem to sing from the same jihadi hymn book.” ....
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Hamish Seggie on February 26, 2013, 17:37:04
Canadian Muslim Lobby Rejects New Terror Laws
 Israel National News  (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/Flash.aspx/262997)
 26 Feb, News Brief is shared with provisions of The Copyright Act

The Canadian Muslim lobby, CAIR-CAN, has launched a campaign against new legislation designed to help lintelligence and law enforcement officials in their struggle against terrorism at home, Shalom Toronto reports.

The organization issued a statement issued calling Muslims in Canada to join acts of protest against the legislation, Bill S-7.

The law empowers security forces to make preventive arrests, avoid disclosing evidence to the suspect when necessary and allows them to require prisoners to testify behind closed doors before a judge. The judge, for his part, has the authority to impose a prison sentence of up to one year, if the suspect does not cooperate.

I am a bit gun shy of laws that allow a judge to imprison someone for a year for failing to cooperate. I'm also gunshy of "preventative arrests" . It appears to me we are heading down the road that will allow police to arrest you on rumour and innuendo.

And that is not the Canada I know.

Please correct me if I have read this the wrong way.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: jollyjacktar on February 26, 2013, 17:39:32
I'm good with it.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: 57Chevy on February 26, 2013, 21:26:59
I am a bit gun shy of laws that allow a judge to imprison someone for a year for failing to cooperate. I'm also gunshy of "preventative arrests" . It appears to me we are heading down the road that will allow police to arrest you on rumour and innuendo.

And that is not the Canada I know.

Please correct me if I have read this the wrong way.

I have similar thoughts, especially being arrested on rumours.
You never know what kind of crap others may be saying about you behind your back.
And the worst part is that it would allow them (The Law) to not tell you what was said about you.
In reality, Law enforcers would be really busy handling a shytload of false accusations.
How would it make their job easier ?

Sounds like a bad act in a lousy play. :facepalm:



Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Brad Sallows on February 26, 2013, 22:46:01
>The law empowers security forces to make preventive arrests

>avoid disclosing evidence to the suspect when necessary

>allows them to require prisoners to testify behind closed doors before a judge

>The judge, for his part, has the authority to impose a prison sentence of up to one year, if the suspect does not cooperate.

Without knowing the context and details any further, each of the four points as described above is intolerable.  However, you don't have to think very far to realize that points two and three are subject to the need to protect information which, publicly released, could compromise national security interests "seriously" (~"secret") or "gravely" (~"top secret").  A system of justice must function openly and transparently, otherwise it is by definition incapable of serving its purpose (it can not be just or achieve justice).
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: GAP on February 27, 2013, 09:09:55
Students Told to Call 9-11 Hijackers “Freedom Fighters”
http://radio.foxnews.com/toddstarnes/top-stories/students-told-to-call-9-11-hijackers-freedom-fighters.html (http://radio.foxnews.com/toddstarnes/top-stories/students-told-to-call-9-11-hijackers-freedom-fighters.html)
By Todd Starnes

An Advanced Placement World Geography teacher at a Texas high school who encouraged students to dress in Islamic clothing also instructed them to refer to the 9-11 hijackers not as terrorists – but as “freedom fighters,” according to students who were in the class.

Students at Lumberton High School were also told to stop referring to the Holocaust as Genocide – instead they were told to use the term “ethnic cleansing.”

John Valastro, the superintendent of the Lumberton Independent School District, told Fox News that the teacher did absolutely nothing wrong.

“What is more dangerous – fear and ignorance or education and understanding,” he asked. “From our standpoint, we are here to educate the kids.”

Valastro said the teacher involved is a 32-year veteran who was simply following state teaching guidelines.

“I don’t think my freshman-level teacher was trying to politicize radical Islam or anything like that,” he told Fox News. “I don’t think our teacher has..to my knowledge ever converted a single student to Islam.”
A Texas mom became outraged after she discovered a Facebook photo of her child wearing Islamic garb.

A Texas mom became outraged after she discovered a Facebook photo of her child wearing Islamic garb.

The Islamic lessons in the small public high school generated national attention after a photograph of four female students wearing burqas surfaced on Facebook.

April LeBlanc’s 15-year-old daughter was one of the students in the photograph. She told Fox News that many parents in the district feel betrayed by school officials.

“My biggest thing is not the burqa,” she said. “That was the key to opening up the rest. It’s scary how far they dove into the Islamic faith. It’s scary what they taught my daughter. Who’s in charge of this? How did our superintendent let this slip through the cracks?”

LeBlanc said the students were told that they could no longer use the terms suicide bomber or terrorist. Instead, they were instructed to use the words “freedom fighters.”

“This teacher taught her that a freedom fighter is when they give their life for the Holy War – and that they’re going to go to heaven,” she told Fox News. “They were saturating these kids in Islam and my daughter is an American Christian child.”

Madelyn LeBlanc told Fox News that it was clear her teacher was very uncomfortable lecturing the students.

“I do have a lot of sympathy for her,” the 15-year-old said. “At the very beginning she said she didn’t want to teach it but it was in the curriculum.”

Her mother added that it was her impression that the teacher did not agree with the quote about calling the terrorists freedom fighters and laced her lecture with sarcasm.

During a lesson on Judaism, LeBlanc said the teacher told the class, “Students, I’m supposed to be politically correct and tell you that the Holocaust was not Genocide. It was an ethnic cleansing.”
more on link
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: George Wallace on February 27, 2013, 10:57:00
I think there is a very vast difference between "Freedom Fighter" and "Religious Zealot".  I would not have called the "Spanish Inquisition" a group of "Freedom Fighters". 
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: E.R. Campbell on February 27, 2013, 11:16:21
I think there is a very vast difference between "Freedom Fighter" and "Religious Zealot".  I would not have called the "Spanish Inquisition" a group of "Freedom Fighters".


If you believe that the only way to achieve salvation in eternity is through one, specific sect of one religion then, surely, you must, equally, believe that doing whatever it takes to bring everyone to the one, true, all powerful god (the one in which you believe) is "liberating" them from false gods and hell and so forth. Isn't that fighting for "freedom?" Are you not, therefore, a legitimate "freedom fighter?"

We make a serious strategic blunder if we pooh-pooh beliefs: they are powerful forces for change.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Journeyman on February 27, 2013, 11:18:40
By Todd Starnes

blah blah blah

Todd is the author of Dispatches From Bitter America — endorsed by Sarah Palin, Mark Levin and Sean Hannity. Click here to get your copy!
Ah, well, say no more.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: GnyHwy on February 27, 2013, 13:21:02
I'm good with it.

I am also.  I find this similar to CCTV or sound tapping debates.  I say, if you aren't doing anything wrong then you have nothing to worry about.  If what you are doing moves you far enough up the police's priority list that they feel the need to arrest you, then it is quite likely that you should be arrested.  A bit of trust has to be involved with the officials we put in place, otherwise we are potentially impeding their efforts, and when time can be the difference between a lot of people being harmed, I think it's good preemptive measure.

>The law empowers security forces to make preventive arrests

>avoid disclosing evidence to the suspect when necessary

>allows them to require prisoners to testify behind closed doors before a judge

>The judge, for his part, has the authority to impose a prison sentence of up to one year, if the suspect does not cooperate.

Without knowing the context and details any further, each of the four points as described above is intolerable.  However, you don't have to think very far to realize that points two and three are subject to the need to protect information which, publicly released, could compromise national security interests "seriously" (~"secret") or "gravely" (~"top secret").  A system of justice must function openly and transparently, otherwise it is by definition incapable of serving its purpose (it can not be just or achieve justice).

Let's go one at a time with these, because once again, I don't see the problem, and don't really see much of a difference from what we already do.  It's just semantics to me.

>The law empowers security forces to make preventive arrests   Do we not already do this?  If the police have reasonable suspicion, they are going to arrest you.  This may loosen the reigns a bit,  but perhaps that is what is needed to make timely arrests.  What they need for their argument are stats that prove that there were times when police couldn't make a preemptive arrest, and something horrible happened because of it.

>avoid disclosing evidence to the suspect when necessary  We do this already too.  Investigators never give up sensitive info or evidence, especially when trying to figure out the truth and get confessions.  Withholding or twisting the truth when investigating is the only way to get the truth.  The proper evidence should and will be given to the accused prior to trial, not during the investigation.

>allows them to require prisoners to testify behind closed doors before a judge  Does it need to be in the open?  Once again, placing trust in the authorities we have put to task.

>The judge, for his part, has the authority to impose a prison sentence of up to one year, if the suspect does not cooperate.  This one's a tough one, and a year seems long, but I can't imagine it would be used hastily.  Do we not already do this with "held without bail"?  As well, if charged with terrorism which is similar to an act of war, how long do you keep a POW before he is to be tried?  What if the investigation is so complex that one year isn't enough?

Until we truly separate church from state, rhetoric and personal opinions from fact, and ultimately all the noise that confuses these issues, no recognizable progress can be made.

To allow the he said she said crap to convolute our courts is a waste of resources without any foreseeable end state.




Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: GAP on February 27, 2013, 14:05:33
Quote
>The judge, for his part, has the authority to impose a prison sentence of up to one year, if the suspect does not cooperate.  
This one's a tough one, and a year seems long, but I can't imagine it would be used hastily.  Do we not already do this with "held without bail"?  As well, if charged with terrorism which is similar to an act of war, how long do you keep a POW before he is to be tried?  What if the investigation is so complex that one year isn't enough?

Why not have this reviewed by a second judge/panel within 30 days of the sentence....this would give oversight.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Colin P on February 27, 2013, 15:31:53
Frankly making the left-wing peace loving youths spend a day or even a few living within the constraints of a fundamental Islamic society, might be a very good idea. Also part way through switch the female and males roles.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Brad Sallows on March 02, 2013, 13:28:47
If we already have laws which allow pre-emptive arrests, we do not need to loosen them.  Statistics which count horrible outcomes which *might* have been prevented are irrelevant for two reasons: the numbers will be manipulated, and security-no-matter-the-cost is a weak principle by which to structure a system of justice.

If there is an assurance that all evidence will be disclosed at trial, that is all that is needed.  If the legislation allows some evidence to be hidden from the defence, the legislation must not be allowed to stand.

Authorities whose proper function depends on trust must be permitted as little free rein of trust as possible.  "Authorities" are people no different from any others.  Their function will be perverted by their desires and needs.

If a suspect is not in contempt of court, there should be no grounds for punishment.  If a suspect is in contempt of court, the law already provides.  Nothing new is needed.

Fundamentally: if this is all just "semantics", then no new laws are needed.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: E.R. Campbell on March 04, 2013, 13:07:03
 :goodpost:  Thanks for that Brad; I agree without reservation. +300
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: GnyHwy on March 04, 2013, 14:59:35
First, I will admit that I am out of my league here, and have not read the details of this the way a lawyer getting paid to do so is.  But, from my many times arguing the what ifs of ROEs, and understanding levels of authority and clearances of fire, I can relate to this topic.  As well, considering there are very few legal experts on this site, it would be pretty quiet if it were only experienced persons were posting.

Let's hit your points one at a time again, not necessarily in order.

If we already have laws which allow pre-emptive arrests, we do not need to loosen them.  Statistics which count horrible outcomes which *might* have been prevented are irrelevant for two reasons: the numbers will be manipulated, and security-no-matter-the-cost is a weak principle by which to structure a system of justice.

Perhaps it is not just a matter of loosening them, but also a matter of defining them better, and lowering the level of control to a level that can act in a timely manner under clear and concise guidelines.  The laws can be widened while getting more detailed and concise at the same time.

If there is an assurance that all evidence will be disclosed at trial, that is all that is needed.  If the legislation allows some evidence to be hidden from the defence, the legislation must not be allowed to stand.

If we are talking about witholding evidence at a trial or having "secret" evidence then yes, I agree with you, that it should remain illegal.  But, witholding and tainting evidence during the investigation is just good police work.  Protecting witnesses is another issue that falls into this category as well.

Authorities whose proper function depends on trust must be permitted as little free rein of trust as possible.  "Authorities" are people no different from any others.  Their function will be perverted by their desires and needs.

This is the one I suspect we are the furthest apart on.  I think you are out on a limb with the perverted comment as well; that is likely rare, and we have processes to deal with that.  Without freedom to act, and the another layer for approval, timeliness is an issue.  I suspect, the methods and tools of policing, particularly electronic measures have developed to a point where our laws don't support them the way they should.  Further, why can't decisions be made at lower levels?  If they are given the training, and authority, and have the oversight, they are probably the best persons to be making the decisions because they have the best situational awareness.  Relaying report after report to a higher authority that may or may not read it thoroughly is not only untimely, but potentially harmful to the investigation. i.e. the higher authority will steer the investigation based on incomplete information.

If a suspect is not in contempt of court, there should be no grounds for punishment.  If a suspect is in contempt of court, the law already provides.  Nothing new is needed.

Are you suggesting that we not be able to hold persons without bail?

Fundamentally: if this is all just "semantics", then no new laws are needed.

Perhaps we don't need new ones, just expansion and clarity on the current ones. It is just semantics to me, but not to lawyers that get paid to write this stuff, and police that need the clarity in order to carry out their duties.  By not having clarity, and asking officers to call home to ask questions anytime a decision needs to be made, not only hinders them physically, but also mentally. 

I think we have all seen the delegation of authority in the military be passed down to lower levels more frequently in recent times.  Why wouldn't it be the same for policing?  The training and methods have improved, why shouldn't the laws?

Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Sythen on March 04, 2013, 17:09:00
I hope its just a typo, but please clarify what you mean by this?

  But, witholding and tainting evidence during the investigation is just good police work.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: GnyHwy on March 04, 2013, 17:27:48
I hope its just a typo, but please clarify what you mean by this?

It is not a typo. In hindsight, tainting was a very poor choice of words.:nod: I am referring to interrogating suspects and witnesses. 

Ex. There are crazy crackpots out there that will confess to crimes.  Copy cat serial killers come to mind.  There are also criminals that will confess as scapegoats, to things in order to cover the bigger picture and mislead the police.  When the police change, lie, or twist the details of an investigation i.e. crime was committed in a blue car instead of the actual white car that committed the crime, the people who are lying become transparent, because they will make claims based on the police's "evidence" rather than the truth.

I also think that some people blur the difference between disclosing evidence for a trial and disclosing it for an investigation.  They are two different things.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Sythen on March 04, 2013, 17:33:47
I see what you're saying and appreciate the clarification. Its why I didn't break out the pitchfork right away, because I assumed I was misunderstanding your point :)
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: jollyjacktar on March 04, 2013, 19:07:08
It is not a typo. In hindsight, tainting was a very poor choice of words.:nod: I am referring to interrogating suspects and witnesses. 

Ex. There are crazy crackpots out there that will confess to crimes.  Copy cat serial killers come to mind.  There are also criminals that will confess as scapegoats, to things in order to cover the bigger picture and mislead the police.  When the police change, lie, or twist the details of an investigation i.e. crime was committed in a blue car instead of the actual white car that committed the crime, the people who are lying become transparent, because they will make claims based on the police's "evidence" rather than the truth.

I also think that some people blur the difference between disclosing evidence for a trial and disclosing it for an investigation.  They are two different things.

Try, as we'd say, "an investigative technique".  That's more accurate.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Brad Sallows on March 04, 2013, 21:54:55
When some of our former prime ministers are believed to have coloured very close to the line, if not outside it, there is nothing under heaven that will ever compel me to believe my skeptical view of people with authority is misplaced.

Eventually this business with fanatics will be resolved, and I doubt the "extraordinary" laws will go away; the laws will have become too useful for dealing with inconvenient people.  And I labour under no illusion that any nation's government is exempt from becoming insane, or merely mildly deranged, and finding pretexts to deem people "inconvenient".
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: leroi on March 04, 2013, 23:04:07
Interesting ... this Muslim scholar makes the case against Jihad/war by radicals:

http://www.israinternational.com/component/content/article/42-rokstories/318-muslim-scholars-recast-ibn-taymiyyahs-fatwa-on-jihad.html
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: E.R. Campbell on April 01, 2013, 23:47:03
The CBC is reporting on the two Canadians involved in the gas plant bombing in Algeria; the report is reproduced, without comment, under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from CBC News:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/story/2013/04/01/f-algeria-canadians-militants-hostages.html
Quote
Canadians in Algerian gas plant attack identified
More Canadians may have been involved in attack

By Greg Weston, National Affairs Specialist
CBC News

Posted: Apr 1, 2013

CBC News has learned that two Canadians linked to al-Qaeda and killed while staging a bloody attack on an Algerian gas refinery earlier this year were former high school friends in their early 20s, one from a Greek Orthodox family, and both from a comfortable middle-class London, Ont., neighbourhood.

A special CBC News investigation has confirmed the two al-Qaeda linked militants are Xristos Katsiroubas and Ali Medlej, both believed to be under 24 years old.

The attack by the two Canadians and 30 other militants linked to al-Qaeda left more than three dozen refinery workers dead, the final 10 of whom were reportedly tied to gas plant piping and killed in a massive bomb blast.

Sources say it is likely Katsiroubas and Medlej intentionally blew themselves up in the blast; only one of them could be identified by DNA testing.

(https://Air-Force.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cbc.ca%2Fgfx%2Fimages%2Fnews%2Fphotos%2F2013%2F04%2F01%2F300-algeria--topstory-pic01.jpg&hash=e611d482bf04c335253eab994940cfc1)
Xris Katsiroubas, one of two Canadians killed while staging
an attack on an Algerian gas refinery earlier this year,
grew up in a home with a backyard swimming pool in a
middle-class London neighbourhood with rich ethnic
diversity. (CBC)

The Harper government at first denied there was any evidence Canadians had been involved in the attack, and the RCMP have continued to keep the identities of the pair a tight secret.

Now sources tell CBC News there may have been more than just the duo.

Sources say at least two more former London schoolmates of Katsiroubas and Medlej also travelled overseas with them.

But it is not yet clear whether the others are still alive, nor if they were involved in the Algerian gas plant attack.

Police sources say Katsiroubas is the likely attacker whom survivors have described as blond-haired and speaking fluent “North American English.”

Canada’s intelligence service is refusing to comment.

But CBC News has learned that as long ago as 2007, CSIS agents interviewed some family and friends of the two, who were were then teenagers.

A former London friend of the two men said one of their relatives called the police, complaining they were “hanging around with weirdos.”

He says a CSIS agent subsequently interviewed a number of their friends.

Not under surveillance

Intelligence sources say CSIS did not have the two men and their other friends under surveillance when they left Canada sometime last year on their ultimately bloody mission.

No one will ever know all the details of how and why two teenagers who seemed rather normal ended up committing such monstrous acts.

But the details that are emerging from former friends and associates suggest theirs is a story that is becoming frighteningly more common.

"Xris" Katsiroubas grew up in a home with a backyard swimming pool in a middle-class London neighbourhood with rich ethnic diversity.

He lived with his mother after his parents divorced, and by all accounts seemed normal.

One former friend recalls that in the early years, at least, “he was like all the other kids, very smart in school, quite active.”

Katsiroubas appears to have had an older brother, and at least three large families of cousins.

One relative is quoted in a 2007 news article saying he travelled all the way across London to shop at his favorite Greek pastry shop.

Little is known about Ali Medlej; he appears to have gone through most of his schooling without even a mention in most of his school yearbooks.

But sources tell CBC News that he and Katsiroubas remained friends throughout their high school years together at London South Secondary.

Medlej appears to have graduated in 2007, the same year Katsiroubas seems to have dropped out at the end of Grade 11.

A former friend says that at some point in those teenage years, Katsiroubas converted to Islam.

One former school acquaintance who ran into Katsiroubas in 2009 recalls “it was really hard to relate to him at that point. He wasn’t the same. He had other interests – kept saying let’s go to the mosque.

"It wasn’t that he wanted to take me there. It was that he wanted to go there and he thought a couple of hours spent with me (catching up) was probably a waste of time."

Shortly after they left high school, Medlej and Katsiroubas and another friend travelled out West, did some odd jobs, and finally returned to London within six months.

Medlej apparently got married sometime after 2009.

The next time most of their former school friends heard about Medlej and Katsiroubas again was about two months ago after the attack on the Algerian gas plant.

CSIS agents were back asking questions again.

The agents never mentioned the two were dead, much less that they had participated in one of the most heinous attacks in recent years.

Investigators say many of the innocent gas plant workers who died in the attack were burned alive.


Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: E.R. Campbell on April 02, 2013, 19:12:06
Here, from the National Post are school yearbook photos of the two young men, both from London, ON, suspected to have died, intentionally, in the Algeria bombing:

(https://Air-Force.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fnationalpostnews.files.wordpress.com%2F2013%2F04%2Fsuspects.jpg%3Fw%3D620&hash=d04c1b8a832e24c1a941e420dba8465f)
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Thucydides on April 02, 2013, 22:06:02
A bit of a tangent, but this suggests how some of these people/groups can get started here, or get the logistical support needed to carry out their activities around the world (sending monies via the Hawala network, for example). While former Liberal MP and current Mayor Joe Fontana is the politician who expedited this (or perhaps was targetted by Mr Rashid), I doubt that politicians from any party would be immune to the potential of cash, power and influence that could be offered by such people:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/search-for-palestinian-authoritys-missing-millions-leads-to-canada/article10600170/

Quote
Search for Palestinian Authority’s missing millions leads to Canada
CAMPBELL CLARK
DUBAI — The Globe and Mail
Published Monday, Apr. 01 2013, 6:00 AM EDT

A search for millions that were allegedly embezzled from the Palestinian Authority has led to Canada – and raised questions about how the prime suspect obtained Canadian citizenship.

Muhammad Rashid was once a senior aide for the Palestinian Authority’s founding President, Yasser Arafat, and head of the Authority’s public investment company, which owned stakes in companies operating businesses from cement to cellphones.

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Last June, a Palestinian court convicted Mr. Rashid, in absentia, of embezzling $34-million.

The Globe and Mail has learned that Mr. Rashid’s ties to Canada have led Palestinian authorities to ask Ottawa for help looking for assets. The Canadian government, however, says there is little it can do.

The Globe has learned Mr. Rashid obtained Canadian citizenship in 2003, even though Palestinian sources claim that he resided primarily in the Middle East. Palestinian prosecutors believe Mr. Rashid, also known as Khaled Salam, now lives in London, England but that he may be travelling on a Canadian passport.

They are also following up his business dealings in Canada, including a period on the board of a Canadian bio-science company.

The Palestinian Authority’s Foreign Affairs Minister, Riad Malki, has asked his Canadian counterpart, John Baird, for help in locating what they deem stolen property. Mr. Malki personally sent a letter to Mr. Baird in February, The Globe and Mail has learned.

Mr. Baird is in the Middle East this week, visiting not only Israel and the West Bank but also Jordan and several key Gulf nations. He is likely to hear renewed requests for help when he meets with Palestinian officials in Ramallah on Saturday.

“He managed to put his assets all over the world, but not in Palestine,” the deputy chairman of the Palestinian anti-corruption commission, Akram Al Khatib, said in an interview before Mr. Malki sent his official request for assistance. The Palestinian Authority wants information on Mr. Rashid’s assets and business dealings in Canada: “We are very interested in that,” he said.

The Palestinian Authority asked Interpol to issue an arrest warrant, but was turned down because the Authority doesn’t have status as a country. Canada has also rebuffed requests for assistance. A spokesman for the Foreign Affairs Department, Amanda Reid, said because Canada does not have a formal legal-assistance treaty with the Palestinian Authority that arranges for help in foreign investigations, “Our capacity to assist is limited.”

Mr. Rashid was Mr. Arafat’s key financial adviser and chairman of Palestinian Commercial Services Company, which made more than $700-million in investments, operating a West Bank cement monopoly and buying into businesses that ranged from Egypt’s Orascom Telecom to a New York bowling alley.

Last year, he was convicted of embezzling, money laundering and taking commissions “by which he was able to unjustifiably enrich himself,” Mr. Al Khatib said. He was sentenced to 15 years in jail and a $15-million fine.

Mr. Rashid, who has been in a bitter feud with current Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, said in a television interview last year that the accusations are false, and in turn accused Mr. Abbas of building a family fortune with Palestinians’ money.

But the chase for Mr. Rashid is now raising questions in Canada. How could a man working in the West Bank as a senior adviser to one of the most high-profile figures in the world, Yasser Arafat, manage to obtain Canadian citizenship?

Sources confirmed Mr. Rashid was granted citizenship in 2003. But Mr. Al Khatib said Mr. Rashid was in the West Bank for at least eight years prior. Mr. Rashid lived in Cairo for a time in 2003, when, according to reports, he had a rift with Mr. Arafat. But Mr. Al Khatib said he did not leave the West Bank for good until 2005.

The law requires that a person seeking Canadian citizenship must live in Canada for three of the four years prior to his application. Only the federal cabinet can waive those requirements. It’s not known whether Mr. Rashid claimed on his citizenship application he lived in Canada. A spokesman for the Citizenship and Immigration department, Erika-Kirsten Easton, said that because of privacy laws, the government cannot comment.

Mr. Rashid does have established links to at least one Canadian business venture, through a 1999 investment by the Palestinian Authority in human and veterinary pharmaceuticals maker Bioniche Life Sciences Inc., then based in London, Ont.

It came about, Bioniche president Graeme McRae said, after he was told of a potential investor by Joe Fontana, then a London, Ont. MP and chair of the House of Commons citizenship and immigration committee. Mr. Fontana is now London’s mayor. The Canadian government, Mr. McRae said, was helping the Palestinian company look for investments.

“He said there’s these very interesting people who want to invest in Canadian businesses – ‘ethical Canadian businesses,’ is the way it was expressed,” Mr. McRae said in telephone interview.

“And he said, ‘I want to try to bring them to London and bring their investment.’ ”

Mr. Fontana did not return telephone calls requesting comment.

The 1999 investment landed Mr. Rashid a spot on the company’s board of directors. Mr. McRae said he thought highly of Mr. Rashid, who came to a few board meetings. But Bioniche asked to buy out the Palestinian investment in 2003 due to concerns their presence might get in the way of efforts to organize new financing in the U.S.

Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: milnews.ca on April 04, 2013, 14:36:01
Here, from the National Post are school yearbook photos of the two young men, both from London, ON, suspected to have died, intentionally, in the Algeria bombing:

(https://Air-Force.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fnationalpostnews.files.wordpress.com%2F2013%2F04%2Fsuspects.jpg%3Fw%3D620&hash=d04c1b8a832e24c1a941e420dba8465f)
The latest - one more being looked into ....
Quote
Canadian authorities are investigating a man from London, Ontario, they say associated with two men from there who died in January, allegedly as part of the team of terrorists who attacked an Algerian gas plant.

Aaron Yoon isn't thought by Canadian authorities to have taken part in the attack, but joined Xristos Katsiroubas and Ali Medlej in Morocco before the assault happened, said people familiar with the matter and with Mr. Yoon. Messrs. Katsiroubas's and Medlej's trip would end with their deaths in Algeria, these people said Canadian and Algerian authorities believe.

The nature of the Canadian probe into Mr. Yoon and details of his exact relationship with the two other men aren't clear.

The probe of the three men and their upbringing in southern Ontario underscores the growing difficulty Western governments face in identifying potential threats from homegrown Islamists. It also illustrates the growing difficulty of combating terrorists directly abroad.

Mr. Yoon is in Mauritania studying Arabic and is "totally against terrorism," said his brother. The brother denied a Canadian Broadcasting Corp. report that said Mr. Yoon was jailed in an African country. "I spoke to him three days ago and he is fine," he said, without elaborating.

All three attended the London South Collegiate Institute, a school in an affluent part of the city, Mr. Yoon's brother and school authorities said.

Mr. Yoon, a Muslim convert of Korean-Canadian ancestry, was part of a group of friends who attended mosques in London, a few hours drive from Detroit, people familiar with the men said ....
Wall Street Journal, 3 Apr 13 (http://online.wsj.com/article_email/SB10001424127887323916304578400801568652558-lMyQjAxMTAzMDAwNDEwNDQyWj.html?mod=wsj_valetbottom_email)
Quote
Aaron Yoon’s sudden conversion to Islam four years ago came as a surprise to his Korean-Canadian family, but it was a generally positive one, lessening family tensions and bringing the 24-year-old closer to his siblings and parents.

He even addressed concerns about terrorism, insisting it was contrary to his new religion, and that he was “100% opposed” to such violence, his elder brother told the National Post Wednesday.

Mr. Yoon has spent the past two years studying the Koran — and trying to learn Arabic — in Morocco and neighbouring Mauritania. But the Yoons were shocked and angered this week when CBC-TV named him as a collaborator with two other Canadians who allegedly helped carry out a bloody terrorist attack in Algeria, and died in the siege.

Mr. Yoon did meet up with Xris Katsiroubas and Ali Medlej — friends from a London, Ont., high school — in Morocco two years ago, but lost contact with them after a year, said his brother, who asked not to be named for privacy reasons.

Mr. Yoon was stunned to hear of their deaths a week ago from his brother, who said he has had regular contact with his sibling.

“I broke the news to him that Xris and Ali were deceased.… He was quite shocked and took that pretty hard,” said the brother, who still lives in London.

“All he knows is what I told him: basically that they were involved in a terrorist attack and they’re deceased. He was just totally shocked, and he wants to know what happened.”

Mr. Yoon is now interested in returning to Canada and clearing his name, said the brother.

Their conversation by cellphone a week ago came after Canadian authorities approached the London family to ask about the three young men, days before their identities became public ....
National Post, 4 Apr 13 (http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/04/03/aaron-yoon-wants-to-clear-his-name/)
(https://Air-Force.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fnationalpostnews.files.wordpress.com%2F2013%2F04%2Faaron-yoon.jpg%3Fw%3D465%26amp%3Bh%3D698&hash=1a885b0bac93d79aa1e374c05747d24e)
Aaron Yoon in the 2005-2006 yearbook from South Secondary School in London, Ont.. GEOFF ROBINS for National Post
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: E.R. Campbell on April 06, 2013, 08:50:27
Here, reproduced, without comment, under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the Globe and Mail, is more on the three alleged Canadian jihadis who were (maybe) involved in the Algeria bombing:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/how-three-london-teens-ended-up-dead-or-jailed-accused-of-terrorism/article10825822/
Quote
How three London teens ended up dead or jailed, accused of terrorism

KATHRYN BLAZE CARLSON, ANN HUI AND TU THANH HA
LONDON, ONT. and TORONTO — The Globe and Mail

Published Saturday, Apr. 06 2013

They pulled up to an Edmonton bus terminal, their Southwestern Ontario childhood homes now more than 3,000 kilometres in the rearview mirror. Like so many Canadians who came before and after them, the pair of teenagers travelled west to Alberta with the hope of a decent job, a chance at prosperity, a shot at a better life.

In 2007, Xristos Katsiroubas and Ali Medlej left London, a manufacturing hub with disappearing jobs. Boasting little in savings, they turned to an elementary-school friend, who fronted them money for a deposit on an apartment and drove them around the city handing out résumés. Their dream of achieving some measure of financial stability was met with the reality of employment at places like Applebees, as a cook, and as a gas-station attendant. Those gigs didn’t last long.

Within months, Mr. Katsiroubas, a high-school dropout and convert to Islam, and Mr. Medlej, the elder of the two by a year, found themselves embittered, discouraged by a string of setbacks and confronted with a feeling that the world was conspiring against them.

Somewhere along the line, in London or Edmonton or some other place yet to come to light, the deflation and annoyance morphed into something more than typical teenage angst: In January of this year, Mr. Katsiroubas and Mr. Medlej, both in their early 20s, were found dead in the middle of the Sahara after a terrorist attack on an Algerian gas plant that killed dozens of hostages. They were not victims.

What transformed the two from average teenagers to two men accused of helping organize a violent siege remains a mystery. Similarly murky is the case of a third London man, a friend named Aaron Yoon, who is being held in a Mauritania jail under suspicion he is a jihadi with the hardline Salafist movement.

The Globe and Mail went to their hometown in search of answers, interviewing dozens of friends, neighbours and former classmates, as well as making calls across the country and overseas. The families, for their part, have chosen to guard their privacy; only Mr. Yoon’s older brother spoke out. The men’s upbringings were painted by those who knew them over the years as mostly unremarkable.

But then, of course, something changed.

When Mr. Katsiroubas arrived in Edmonton with Mr. Medlej, he was just a regular teen, according to Basel Alsaadi, Mr. Katsiroubas’ childhood friend from London who was already living in Edmonton. The two newcomers moved into an apartment with a third Londoner named Benjamin Thomas, having parties and girls over “pretty much every night,” Mr. Alsaadi said.

It was not long, though, before Mr. Katsiroubas and Mr. Medlej realized they couldn’t sustain their lifestyle. They resorted to stealing to get by, with court records reportedly showing that both Mr. Medlej and Mr. Thomas pleaded guilty to shoplifting in May, 2007, each slapped with a $1,000 fine. “They felt like others had privileges and that the world was unfair,” Mr. Alsaadi said.

Some of those feelings stemmed from their views on politics. Mr. Medlej, whose parents are believed to be Lebanese, was overheard talking about Lebanese conflicts in the Middle East – particularly its war with Israel in 2006 – saying he felt his people were being taken advantage of, bullied even. “They had an overarching understanding that things were not fair,” Mr. Alsaadi said.

Their living situation was beginning to grate on them, too. Both Muslim, Mr. Katsiroubas and Mr. Medlej grew increasingly annoyed at Mr. Thomas’ drinking and partying with friends at the apartment, Mr. Alsaadi said. Their landlady wasn’t impressed either, and they were soon evicted.

Mr. Alsaadi never thought Mr. Katsiroubas was in any kind of serious trouble until the Canadian Security Intelligence Service approached him – tipped off, according to the CBC, by someone who knew them. “It was alarming,” Mr. Alsaadi said. “I actually told them, ‘What are you guys up to, what’s going on here?’ ”

Mr. Alsaadi, who hadn’t had contact with either of the men in years, said he really doesn’t think the two were planning anything at the time. He feels, though, that the experience emboldened them. “The fact that they were being questioned kind of gave them that self-importance,” he said. “It kind of made them be even more rebellious.”

Residents in the men’s hometown were aghast at this week’s revelation that two of their own were implicated in the North Africa attack and that Mr. Yoon had been detained. The news is a conversation starter among strangers holding newspapers on street corners; it is on the lips of neighbours, friends and relatives trying to reconcile the portrait of the families they knew years ago with the narrative emerging now about the three men.

For Mr. Alsaadi and another childhood friend, the bearded, Muslim-garbed Mr. Katsiroubas, who ultimately went by the name of “Mustafa,” was wholly unrecognizable next to the memory of a Greek boy named Xris. The young Xris played volleyball, basketball and road hockey. He went to the movies and visited a Greek bakery with his father, Stan, and he was a “Conflict Cooler” who helped settle playground spats at St. George Etienne Cartier elementary school.

The school, in a well-to-do neighbourhood, is a walk away from the house he called home after his parents divorced. His mother moved into the Chiddington Avenue home, already owned by her new husband Ian Hawn, merging the two families. “It was a Brady Bunch situation,” said the childhood friend’s father, who hosted Mr. Katsiroubas for playdates.

Mr. Alsaadi remembers feeling as though Mr. Katsiroubas’ mother and Mr. Hawn, his engineer stepfather, played favourites. With the two families under one roof, Xris was one of three boys, alongside his biological brother Andrew and a stepbrother, Eric. Mr. Katsiroubas often descended into the basement alone to play video games.

Mr. Katsiroubas and Mr. Yoon went to elementary school together, but since Mr. Medlej attended a different school, he didn’t come into the fold until high school at London South Collegiate Institute – until Grade 10 or so, when he and Mr. Katsiroubas “clicked,” as one former schoolmate put it.

Mr. Medlej was a year older and not like the other two. While Mr. Yoon and Mr. Katsiroubas were described in their early high-school years as inconspicuous, Mr. Medlej was remembered for an oftentimes “jolly” nature, a sometimes hot temper and his impressive smarts.

“In my memory, he’s got a smile and kind of happy-go-lucky [personality] for the most part,” said former classmate Michael Melito, who played football with Mr. Medlej. He added, though: “[He was] quick to anger, but not an angry person … Maybe someone who had a shorter fuse.”

One friend remembers Mr. Medlej telling him he took a baseball bat to a “group of white kids” who were yelling at him from their porch. Another former schoolmate said he got into a brawl with Mr. Medlej outside a London bar in 2008 – there had long been bad blood between the two, the schoolmate said, since he was convinced Mr. Medlej stole his backpack in high school.

But the friend said Mr. Medlej was also incredibly bright. “He and I would sit together [in class], and goof off or whatever, but I would get mediocre marks, whereas he would goof off and still get like 90s,” he said of studying together at the collegiate, which is in one of the city’s oldest neighbourhoods.

Although this friend saw Mr. Medlej as a leader who didn’t travel with a pack, he believed Mr. Medlej wanted to “fit in” with the Lebanese cohort at a school somewhat divided between the “white” students and an immigrant population captured by the school after it widened its net to the south.

It is there, in the south London neighbourhood of White Oaks, that Mr. Yoon’s Catholic parents live. Unlike the Katsiroubas house, with its healthy lawn and backyard pool, the Yoon apartment is on the dimly lit third-floor of a three-storey walk-up condominium complex across from a mall.

By 2006, Mr. Katsiroubas had left behind his Greek Orthodox upbringing for Islam, praying daily with Mr. Medlej at the high school, one former schoolmate said. Mr. Katsiroubas started going by the name “Mustafa,” sporting a long beard and then, after dropping out of school around Grade 11, donning more traditional Muslim clothing.

“Maybe he just found it difficult, maybe he didn’t have the support,” Mr. Alsaadi said. “Maybe it was the people he hung around with didn’t value school, per se, and wanted to just move on and do other things.”

Indeed, the friend who grew up with Mr. Katsiroubas said “Mustafa” started hanging out with a different crowd, all but ignoring this former friend at school. “Right away, he changed [after converting],” he said. “He travelled many places and came back with a beard. You couldn’t recognize him. He started wearing different clothes. You’d see him in the smoker’s pit and he wouldn’t say a word to anyone.”

The nature of any travel outside Canada is a major question mark in this evolving tale. It may be what prompted CSIS to ask the RCMP to put Mr. Katsiroubas and Mr. Medlej on their radar two years ago, a move that suggested law-enforcement authorities were increasingly concerned about their potential crimes.

When threats are felt to be serious enough, CSIS sends a “disclosure letter” or an “advisory letter” to the RCMP concerning the most dangerous extremists. The disclosure letters provide tips and leads to the Mounties, while advisory letters provide the RCMP with information that is intended to support police searches, wiretaps and, eventually, criminal charges.

Little is publicly known about where Mr. Katsiroubas had journeyed before meeting his death at the Algerian gas plant in January. Mr. Alsaadi said he believes Mr. Katsiroubas and Mr. Medlej left Canada in 2009 – for where, he doesn’t know – but the pair must have returned before venturing to North Africa because they were both spotted in London in the years between.

The friend who went to elementary school with Mr. Katsiroubas said he saw Mustafa in early 2012, shortly after one of Mr. Katsiroubas’ high-school friends, Said Hadbai, was shot dead after he reportedly stepped in to help a friend involved in a fight. The friend said hello and offered his condolences; Mr. Katsiroubas, whom the friend said was “dead to [the family]” by this point, offered but a nod.

Mr. Medlej, for his part, got married sometime in late 2009 or early 2010. A friend posted a message to Facebook on Jan. 9, 2010, saying his “bro Ali Medlej” had just got married. The day before, the friend wrote that Mr. Medlej was planning to “hang” with him and Mustafa in London – that they were going to “the mosque.”

A year later, Mr. Medlej was working at a downtown London Hasty Market.

Mr. Yoon came to the Muslim faith later than Mr. Medlej and Mr. Katsiroubas, converting from Catholicism to Islam three or four years ago, his older brother told The Globe. One woman who said she worked with Mr. Yoon while he was a busboy at a Mandarin restaurant in 2008, and then again when he hauled furniture from the stockroom at a Leon’s warehouse in 2011, noticed a major shift in those years.

At Leon’s, he prayed daily and refused to converse with female supervisors since, he said, women had no business being “superior.” He flooded his former coworker’s Facebook feed with so many quotes from the Koran that she ultimately deleted him from her social network.

“He was this fun-loving guy at the Mandarin,” she said, adding that he used to have after-work drinks with coworkers and spend time with a girlfriend. “And then when I saw him at the Leon’s, it was a complete shock. He isolated himself from people and hung out alone.”

One of Mr. Yoon’s two older brothers, who answered the door Wednesday at his parents’ White Oaks dwelling with tired, red eyes, said Mr. Yoon became a “better person” when he adopted the teachings of the Koran, fostering a better relationship with his family.

Around the time Mr. Yoon is believed to have converted and the other two returned from Edmonton disgruntled at an “unfair” world, two Canadian diplomats – Robert Fowler and Louis Guay – disappeared while on a mission in Niger. They were held hostage for four months by the men of Mokhtar Belmokhtar, a leader of al-Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb (AQIM) and the man believed to be behind the Algeria hostage-taking.

Mr. Yoon’s brother firmly rejects the notion that Mr. Yoon had become radicalized – or that he journeyed to North Africa for any reason other than to join friends, initially in Morocco.

It turns out that Mr. Yoon left for Mauritania in May, 2011, to study Arabic in the capital, Nouakchott, according to Amnesty International. Just seven months into his African trip, he was arrested as a terror suspect, and by July, 2012, he was sentenced to two years in jail and a fine, said an Amnesty International researcher, Gaëtan Mootoo.

News of this third Londoner’s detention went unnoticed because it was published in a little-known Arabic-language publication. In a July 29, 2012, article, the Mauritanian magazine El Hourriya reported that a Canadian named Haroun Yoon was in custody on suspicions that he was a jihadi with the radical Salafist movement.

That summer, Mr. Mootoo visited Mr. Yoon, but the Canadian said he didn’t want the human-rights group to lobby on his behalf. “He didn’t want Amnesty to campaign for him so I have to respect that,” Mr. Mootoo said in a telephone interview Friday from Paris.

The fate of Mr. Yoon’s friends took longer to emerge. They had ended up with the militants of Mr. Belmokhtar, who had kidnapped the Canadian diplomats four years before. Having splintered from AQIM, Mr. Belmokhtar’s group now called themselves the Al-Mulathameen brigade and “Those Who Sign with Blood.”

Travelling from northern Mali to Algeria via the Libyan desert, the two Canadians and other militants arrived at the In Amenas gas field just before dawn on Jan. 16. They fired at two buses of workers, then stormed the living quarters, dragging out workers, targeting Westerners, killing those who tried to escape and rigging others with explosives.

The following evening, a member of Those Who Sign with Blood called a Mauritanian news agency, Agence Nouakchott d’Information, and revealed that the terrorist commando included militants from Canada. The bloody raid ended with a standoff with Algerian security forces and the death of 38 hostages and 29 terrorists.

Survivors told reporters one of the terrorists had fair hair and spoke fluent English. While the Algerian prime minister quickly alleged that two Canadians played a key role in the hostage taking, it would only be in March that the RCMP confirmed their nationality and this week that the police force acknowledged Mr. Medlej and Mr. Katsiroubas had died there.

For Mr. Yoon, freedom may come by the end of this year since his sentence is up in December, Mr. Mootoo said, adding that the Canadian is being held in relatively decent surroundings, has regular meals and is able to pray.

In an interview Friday night with the CBC from his cell in Mauritania, Mr. Yoon denied the allegations against him and said he was shocked at the news his friends were involved in the attack. He also complained of maltreatment, saying, “I’ve been beaten, I’ve been tortured, and I’m still sick, and I still don’t see any medical attention, I don’t see any help from the Canadian government in my release.”

Mr. Yoon’s older brother said he spoke with him many times over the phone, as recently as last weekend, when he gained assurances that “everything was fine.”

“I hope Aaron comes back and clears all of this up,” he said. “We’re waiting for his call.”

 
With reports from Colin Freeze, Rich Cash and Daniel Leblanc

Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: GAP on April 06, 2013, 10:26:09
It's interesting as a feel nice piece about the poor Canadian boys led astray, but somehow I don't see them as misdirected. They made their choices.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: PMedMoe on April 08, 2013, 09:33:54
And of course, Mr. Yoon is now saying that the government didn't offer him any help.....   ::)

Canadian jailed in Mauritania says Canada didn't help, sources disagree:report (http://ca.news.yahoo.com/canadian-jailed-mauritania-says-canada-didnt-help-sources-173235084.html)

Citing unnamed sources, CBC News says Aaron Yoon — who reportedly travelled abroad with two Canadians killed during a terrorist seige in Algeria — has been visited nine times by Canadian consular officials.
 
The report has the sources saying Yoon urged officials not to tell his family in Canada about his situation, a request the government has to abide by due to the Privacy Act.

More at link
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: E.R. Campbell on April 15, 2013, 06:31:58
In addition to a possible fourth London ON youth being involved in the Algeria gas plant bombing, the Toronto Star is reporting that a former York University student may have been part of a team of suicide bombers who attacked Mogadishu on Sunday (http://www.thestar.com/news/world/2013/04/14/somalia_militants_attack_mogadishu_courthouse.html).

The Star says that "intelligence, police and government sources in Mogadishu and Ottawa told the Star that they were investigating reports that Mahad Ali Dhore was one of the nine Al Shabab militants who stormed the capital’s courthouse Sunday as part of the well-co-ordinated attack, which included a separate car bomb targeting Turkish aid workers."
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: E.R. Campbell on May 05, 2013, 06:55:37
And another Canadian jihadi speaks out, in this article which is reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the National Post:

http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/05/03/na0504-gd-terror/
Quote
From a super-maximum prison cell, Canadian convicted terrorist describes his ‘gradual’ radicalization

Gary Dimmock, Postmedia News

Last Updated: 13/05/04

OTTAWA — The first Canadian charged under the country’s post-9/11 anti-terrorism laws has condemned both the Boston bombings and an alleged al-Qaeda-inspired plot to attack a VIA passenger train for targeting civilians and says if the radicalization of the accused was anything like his own, it would have been a “gradual” process driven by news of suffering in their homelands at the hands of Western troops in an online age that connected them with other young Muslims ready to take up arms.

“For me, it was gradual. There was no moment of enlightenment,” Momin Khawaja told the Ottawa Citizen.

Khawaja, born and mostly raised in Ottawa, is serving life in a super-maximum prison after he was found guilty in 2008 of participating in, contributing to, financing and facilitating a group of British Islamist extremists plotting to bomb London in 2004 and wage a wider jihad against the West.

In his first interview since his 2004 arrest, Khawaja said the pair accused in the VIA plot were wrong to “harm innocent civilians and not military combatants.”

He noted that he was days away from booking a flight to go fight alongside insurgents in either Afghanistan or Iraq when he was arrested at the Department of Foreign Affairs, where he worked on contract as a software developer.

News footage and newspaper headlines of civilians getting killed in the wars weighed on him.

“It was upsetting to me because I connected to that region. It was a difficult time and there was a lot going on in the world. In a war, you have two sides and you pick a side. I was prepared to go help defend individuals with the tribal groups.”

He couldn’t escape the news of civilian deaths in war zones. It found him at the gym and the mosque. “Everyone was talking about it. ‘Did you see about the deaths at the wedding procession, or did you hear about the bombing of the market?’ ” said Khawaja, now 34.

It hit him harder than most at his mosque, where he taught up to 40 children and teens every weekend.

“I was drawn to the militant ideology.”

He then sought out like-minded Muslims on the Internet. “You don’t just stumble upon what I would call ‘popular interest groups.’ ”

“I felt a connection with these people and, in my mind, it was a good channel for my energy or output at the time,” he said.

The convicted terrorist said he was also drawn to the insurgents’ fitness regime and looked at it as a goal to stay in good shape. “It seemed suitable,” he said.

“I also felt that I needed to help these people under a military war. I wanted to help individuals defending themselves. In any military, they train their soldiers to stay fit so they can fight.”

“I had no bad intentions, and my family knows that,” he added.

Khawaja had been to Pakistan — his father’s homeland — and said being close to hostilities affected him. So much so that he found time away from his fiancee to train at a paramilitary camp in Pakistan, where he fired more rounds than he could count. He said the terrain of the training camp reminded him of Gatineau Park and riverside stretches of the Ottawa neighbourhood where he lived.

He said he trained alongside a dozen young men, all willing to risk their lives to one day fight alongside the insurgents.

While he was convicted on several terrorism charges, he was not found guilty in the 2004 British plot to bomb nightclubs, and prosecutors introduced no evidence to show he knew anything about the planned bombing.

In fact, he said he thought he was developing what authorities dubbed the Hi-Fi Digimonster, not to detonate bombs in London, but to set off improvised explosive devices in the Middle East against what he called “military combatants” such as NATO troops.

He said he wanted to fight against U.S. control of Middle East oil resources.

Khawaja, who did not testify at his trial, also wanted to set the record straight about the name of the remote detonator he built in his bedroom at his parents’ home.

“I did not coin the phrase Hi-Fi Digimonster. The cops did that.”

He said that he never gave it a name but referred to it as The Buzzer.

He said The Buzzer had several uses, and “only one of its intended uses was to detonate improvised explosive devices in a war region.”

He said it would never have been used against civilian targets, but exclusively against military combatants.

Khawaja said his radicalization was largely enabled by the Internet, where he hooked up with others prepared for jihad.

He used draft email exchanges with co-conspirators and said jihad videos on the Internet also influenced him.

“Today, for youngsters, it would have a lot to do with the Internet,” he said.

These days, Khawaja is a world away from the online world he used to frequent.

“I’ve overcome my need for the Internet. I have been without the Internet for 10 years and my life is no worse for it,” he said.

But for a few years living in Saudi Arabia as a child, Khawaja was raised in Ottawa, where he fit in well, in and outside school.

He said his childhood was pretty normal, and he excelled in high school, where he once scored the second-highest in an Ontario-wide math exam.

There was a basketball net in his driveway, a souped-up car and plenty of hip hop music. But he traded in cars and chasing girls for a religious life, one that had him praying five times a day rather than sleeping in and missing morning prayer.

He spent his free time at the mosque, which in 2004 was still a small house where they prayed on the basement floor.

He taught at the mosque on the weekends and remembers hearing stories of fellow Muslims being subjected to racist taunts.

After the September 2001 attacks in the United States, the backlash against Muslims got so bad that attendance at Friday prayers at Khawaja’s mosque was reduced by half.

They were scared in their own neighbourhood after a 15-year-old Muslim boy was beaten unconscious by a gang of white teens in what was found to be a hate crime in 2001.

Khawaja heard more and more stories of fellow Muslims being taunted in the community, and while no slurs targeted him directly, he developed a deep connection to those subjected to hate.

“I don’t hate any individual. I may dislike some of their qualities, but I don’t hate individuals,” he said.

Khawaja knew enough about guns that he had several registered weapons in his bedroom at his parents’ house, and he fired many rounds at a rifle range in Ottawa’s west end.

He blames U.S. foreign policy and wars in Afghanistan and Iraq for prompting Muslim men to radicalize and cause harm in a deadly revenge campaign.

Khawaja was found guilty in October 2008. Three days before the court date for his sentencing hearing, in March 2009, he called home and asked that they get some honey, good meat and the last Star Wars film, which he had missed because he was in jail awaiting trial. He and his family figured he’d just get time served and they’d be celebrating his release at the same home the Mounties stormed with guns drawn in 2004.

But he got 101/2 years, and later, an appeal court increased that sentence to life in prison.

His mother, Azra, expressed relief that he was not convicted in the London terror plot, which she called “those dirty things.” Prosecutors, trying Khawaja for a plot that was never executed, wanted the judge to sentence him up to 50 years in prison.

He is up for parole next year but he says he will not apply and will waive his right to a parole board hearing. He said he’s resigned to the fact he will never get parole if he doesn’t get a transfer from the country’s super-maximum facility. He would have a much better chance at winning parole if he got a transfer to a medium-security prison, but that is unlikely.

In fact, Khawaja has for years been denied a transfer to another prison.

He now spends at least 23 hours a day in an isolation cell. He is fed through a meal slot and has no contact with the outside world except monthly visits from his parents.

But he doesn’t complain about prison, let alone its food. He said the Halal meal, dubbed the Khawaja Diet for its low salt, comes with a dessert cake that makes his eyes light up.

He spends most of his days working out in his cell, curling any weight he can find including milk bags filled with water, and doing pushups and sit ups. He also goes for what he calls “walks” that have him pacing the length of his prison cell.

He can do it for hours with his eyes closed. “I have never hit my forehead on the wall.”

He follows the news by reading the Montreal Gazette, and though he has a television, he says he rarely watches it. He prays a lot and reads fitness magazines to pass the time and has spent countless hours detailing his life in writing for his case-management officer.

He can go under escort to the prison yard once a day but he sometimes takes a pass.

He has also taken university correspondence courses, including history.

While a model inmate, he has been in isolation for more than a year. He lost contact with other inmates after he was splashed with boiling water by a prisoner.

He doesn’t know what prompted the attack but said, “In here, a lot of the inmates are not educated and it could be something small or someone telling them to act like that,” he said.

Postmedia News


Mr. Khawaja's comments are, doubtless, self serving but they are also instructive about "how" young Canadians can become radicalized. There aren't any "root causes," just impressionable young men bombarded with information which they are insufficiently mentally disciplined to process. One point that resonates with me: prisons - Mr. Khawaja, commenting on his fellow inmates, says, "In here, a lot of the inmates are not educated and it could be something small or someone telling them to act like that;” data from the US, a couple of years ago, said that Islam was the fastest growing religion in prisons.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Hamish Seggie on May 05, 2013, 12:21:49
We have not seen, at least in my jail, an upsurge in conversion to Islam.
 We did have one about five years ago, but he was murdered a few years ago.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Teager on May 05, 2013, 13:10:12
I find it very ironic that this guy says killing civilians is wrong and that the devices he has created were for NATO troops. We all know insurgents kill and injure plenty of civilians with there IED's and sucide bombers. Yes, NATO troops have had situations where civilians have been killed too. I think he misses the point that this is a war and unfortunatly civilians do get killed from both sides. To blame NATO soley on civilian deaths shows that he is unable to admit the insurgent side is just as responsible for causing this if not more. Not to mention the many deaths and executions the taliban did to the civilian population long before the war. Hopefully he can learn some of this through his history course. Just my  :2c:
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Larry Strong on May 05, 2013, 15:56:40
We have not seen, at least in my jail, an upsurge in conversion to Islam.
 We did have one about five years ago, but he was murdered a few years ago.

Probably has something to do with the fact that a large amount of the US inmates are African American who would be more likely to convert to islam.



larry
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Hamish Seggie on May 05, 2013, 22:12:54
Probably has something to do with the fact that a large amount of the US inmates are African American who would be more likely to convert to islam.



larry

I was going to mention that the majority of our inmates are aboriginal, Metis and Caucasian, with a smattering of those of African descent.

In any case , the aboriginal people have their own belief system, plus they really don't like some other races.....
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: E.R. Campbell on May 25, 2013, 06:48:18
Reproduced, without comment, under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the Daily Mail:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2330180/Woolwich-attacks-Two-men-arrested-offensive-Twitter-comments-Lee-Rigbys-death.html


But others are commenting; first: Alan Johnson, Editor of Fathom: for a deeper understanding of Israel and the region (http://www.fathomjournal.org/), Senior Research Fellow at the Britain Israel Communications and Research Centre (BICOM) (http://www.bicom.org.uk/), professor of democratic theory and practice, editorial board member of Dissent magazine (http://www.dissentmagazine.org/), and a Senior Research Associate at The Foreign Policy Centre (http://fpc.org.uk/about/) in this opinion oiece which is reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from The Telegraph:

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/alanjohnson/100218584/we-need-to-talk-about-islamism/
Quote
We need to talk about Islamism

By Alan Johnson

Last updated: May 23rd, 2013

If I had slept through yesterday, woken up this morning, and gone online, I might have thought the EDL beheaded someone. There is a lot of displacement on Twitter and FB, as if it's all too politically difficult and socially awkward to talk about the killers' ideology, or the place of religion in that ideology. So we talk instead about the EDL, or John Reid, or drones, or "the religion of peace" or say "Christians kill too" or "what about Anders Breivik", or, well, anything but the brute fact that the murderers, like so very many before them, shouted "Allahu Akbar".

Of course we need to condemn every form of racist backlash and seek unity between Muslims and non-Muslims against extremism of all kinds. And much of the response, beginning with those truly heroic women who risked their lives to protect that young man's body from further mutilation, has shown the best of us, just as our reaction to 7/7 did. But it isn't enough. We need to discuss the elephant in the room – the radical and sectarian, often violent, and sometimes fascistic political ideology and global movement of Islamism.

Why? Because we are fighting against a religiously inspired ideology, jihadism, but we don't want to talk about religion. There are many reasons for our reticence but here are three for starters: two are unattractive, while one is laudable, if misplaced.

First, we are frightened to talk freely.

Not, hitherto, because we fear that our throats will be slit, although since the Rushdie Affair that fear has produced much artistic self-censorship, as the artist Grayson Perry once had the courage to admit. No, intellectual self-censorship begins elsewhere, in the fear of losing one's place in the warmth of the tribe, huddled together by the fire. We fear that if we look too closely or think too clearly, or talk too much about the problem of Islamism, and the connections as well as the separations between it and Islam, then we will be sent into the cold – shunned by colleagues, not invited to this dinner party, or that conference. We may even face social death itself by being called "Islamophobic". The university today is a stultifyingly conformist institution, reminiscent of those old Soviet-era "cultural associations". The standard version, the line, is policed rigorously. And the only accredited language in which people are allowed to speak is full of well-rehearsed evasions and apologias and exculpatory frameworks.

Second, we are ignorant of what to talk about.

In our intellectual culture religion is a mystery. That's why the commentators mostly refuse to believe religion, any religion, can have anything to do with terrorism. So they either translate terrorists screaming "Allahu Akbar!" into something they can understand – economics, foreign policy, identity – or just change the subject altogether, writing instead (not as well) about the dangers of a racist backlash, the threat of the loss of civil liberties, and so on.

In the last 24 hours I've read again and again about the need not to talk about Islam. "All religions are the same," say the commentators and politicians. Well, are they? Is anything? Yes and no. Try sentences that begin "all political parties are…" Or "all governments are…" "All sports are…" "All art is…" In every case you can say some sensible things in the rest of the sentence but you have walled yourself from most things, and most of the things that matter most, about any particular political party, government, sport, or art form. The fact is that there are all sorts of differences between religions and they matter. For example: the character and reception of the founding revelation, not least whether it is understood as mediated or not (and therefore open to reform or not). Or the content of the revelation, including the very understanding of God. Other differences include the relation to other religions, to the secular world, to human-made power and law (e.g. "Rome"). Does the religion view the very idea of a separate political realm as a kind of impiety, an affront to God? Was the prophet his own Constantine or not? The answers diverge and radically. Religions, in other words, can't just be analysed as barely distinguishable forms of the same impulse, as if we were all in an A Level Religion class. They have radically specific contents, unique and conditioning histories, and those differences matter profoundly when they bump up against the secular world.

Third, we want to protect a vulnerable minority.

The last reason for our reticence about talking about Islam and Islamism is the best one. We are frightened of giving comfort to those who would exploit the actions of radical Islamists to attack ordinary Muslims. We worry that if we link this terrorist murder to big words like Islam and Islamism then we will unleash reaction, encourage the EDL and BNP, and the victims will be ordinary Muslims. And that is a good impulse which should condition how we talk about Islam and Islamism. But it should no longer determine whether we talk about Islam and Islamism. It's all too late for that.

Muslims like the Canadian writer Irshad Manji will tell us that the people who would benefit most from a free-wheeling conversation would be ordinary Muslims who are perplexed by our society's *****-footing indulgence of the extremism which has taken root in some places and would feel licensed to speak out. We can defend religious freedom and defend Muslim reformers, but what we can't do anymore is just change the subject.

Anyway, it's too late, for another reason. One of the fruits of globalisation is that the walls separating what concerns "us" from what concerns "them" have tumbled down. We are all "us", now. The global is local. Woolwich made plain that the fear and the violence and the grieving that has spilled over from what the Muslim political scientist Bassam Tibi calls "Islam's predicament with modernity" are now also ours to bear, and they will borne also by our children and our grandchildren. No more changing the subject.


So three reasons for not talking about Islam:

     1. We are afraid to talk about Islam, specifically, not because we fear Muslim violence but, rather, because we fear being characterized as bigots;

     2. We don't know much about religion, any religion, and we know even less about what any specific group believes; and

     3. We want to protect a minority from slander.

But, Islam - ordinary Islam - does have a "predicament with modernity" and it is, now, our predicament, too.

I am, to a greater or less degree, guilty of all three fears, but, mainly, I think No. 2 is my main problem. How can I fairly comment on something about which I am abysmally ignorant?
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: E.R. Campbell on May 25, 2013, 07:05:53

But others are commenting; first: Alan Johnson, Editor of Fathom: for a deeper understanding of Israel and the region (http://www.fathomjournal.org/), Senior Research Fellow at the Britain Israel Communications and Research Centre (BICOM) (http://www.bicom.org.uk/), professor of democratic theory and practice, editorial board member of Dissent magazine (http://www.dissentmagazine.org/), and a Senior Research Associate at The Foreign Policy Centre (http://fpc.org.uk/about/) in this opinion oiece which is reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from The Telegraph:

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/alanjohnson/100218584/we-need-to-talk-about-islamism/

So three reasons for not talking about Islam:

     1. We are afraid to talk about Islam, specifically, not because we fear Muslim violence but, rather, because we fear being characterized as bigots;

     2. We don't know much about religion, any religion, and we know even less about what any specific group believes; and

     3. We want to protect a minority from slander.

But, Islam - ordinary Islam - does have a "predicament with modernity" and it is, now, our predicament, too.

I am, to a greater or less degree, guilty of all three fears, but, mainly, I think No. 2 is my main problem. How can I fairly comment on something about which I am abysmally ignorant?


And Terry Glavin (http://www.ottawacitizen.com/columnists/Terry_Glavin.html) chimes in in this opinion piece which is reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the Ottawa Citizen:

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/opinion/columnists/Column+Moral+illiterates+weigh+Woolwich/8426785/story.html
Quote
Column: Moral illiterates weigh in on Woolwich
 
By Terry Glavin, Ottawa Citizen

May 24, 2013

It has become a disgusting habit of contemporary journalism that every time some deranged yob goes off the deep end with a carving knife shouting Allahu akbar, a battalion of television crews surrounds and lays siege to the local mosque until heartfelt on-air disavowals and loud declarations of civic loyalty are extracted from whichever hapless imam happens to answer the doorbell.

This really needs to stop.

It is not the fault of the Muslim mainstream nor any gruesome network of dingbat back street ayatollahs that a commonplace trope of the popular culture insists that the so-called West is at war with the so-called Muslim World, and that consequently anytime some lunatic who thinks he’s a Muslim goes on a shooting or kettle-bombing spree in any one of the NATO countries, we should take it as form of understandable retaliation.

It is that caste of moral illiterates among the celebrity opinion-arbiters of the popular culture that has established this imbecility as, like, central to the discourse. If it’s grovelling apologies and pledges of fealty we want, we should be dragging them out of that crowd and giving our harmlessly devout Muslim neighbours a rest for once.

I mean, I ask you. Before the blood of 25-year-old Royal Fusilier Lee Rigby had even dried on that street in the South London borough of Woolwich Tuesday, the grotesque American gasbag Michael Moore was trying to make a cheap laugh out of it by being facetious with his 1.5 million plus Twitter followers: “I am outraged that we can’t kill people in other counties without them trying to kill us!”

Here’s former London mayor Ken Livingstone doing exactly the same sort of thing. Building himself an escape route out of all the usual preamble stuffing — of course we support the police in their investigations, our thoughts are with the family, of course we are all outraged — Livingstone gives us this: “In 2002, before the invasion of Iraq, the security services warned the prime minister, Tony Blair, that this would make Britain a target for terrorist attacks. We are still experiencing the dreadful truth of this warning.”

Ian Leslie, author of Born Liars, Why We Can’t Live Without Deceit, answered Livingstone’s obscenity by usefully noticing that the great Muslim revenge orgy that Livingstone and his type have been predicting for the past decade or so has never materialized. All we have seen are such deranged losers as the Boston Marathon bombers and cretins with Sarf London accents and machetes and a rusted gun that didn’t work.

“The simple reason is that most Muslims, like most everyone, are not potential terrorists just waiting to be activated by the action of a government,” Leslie pointed out Thursday. “It takes Ken-levels of parochialism and self-obsession to imagine that they are.”

In the Guardian newspaper, that once-sturdy clarion of robust left-wing analysis, the American pseudo-progressive Glenn Greenwald offers up harmony to Livingstone’s melody line in a column that exploits the fuzzy timidities around the definition and the common use of the term “terrorism,” and he does so in such a way as to completely normalize what he claims is not merely “Muslim” violence, but justifiable Muslim violence.

“It is very hard to escape the conclusion that, operationally, the term has no real definition at this point beyond ‘violence engaged in by Muslims in retaliation against western violence toward Muslims’.”

Retaliation? Of course, the throat-clearing, the obligatory concession that “highlighting this causation doesn’t remotely justify the acts.”

Well, how nice to have that cleared up. But it is nonetheless “the causation” that Greenwald slips in without having the courage to make the case for it. The problem, the root cause, indeed the proximate cause is “western violence against Muslims.” There it is. It’s our fault.

Can you imagine some imam getting away with saying something like that? Of course you can’t.

We have had this sort of thing in Canada, too. When the Toronto Star’s Haroon Siddiqui put himself to the work of outlining the acceptable liberal-establishment opinion about the RCMP’s busting-up of a plot to bomb the Parliament buildings in the summer of 2010, the headline on Siddiqui’s homily says it all well enough: “To tackle domestic terrorism, end foreign wars.”

Terrorism is what we should expect, Siddiqui declared. It’s because of Afghanistan. The Toronto 18? That wasn’t a case of demented young men looking for adventure in a culture where it’s positively cool to assert that the “West” is at war with “Islam.” It’s simply because they were Muslims, and because of Afghanistan, we’re expected to believe. The convicted terrorist Said Namouh of Montreal? Our fault.

Guy’s a Muslim. We’re in Afghanistan. Ottawa’s own Momin Khawaja, convicting of plotting mayhem with British jihadists? It was because he is a Muslim and we’re in Afghanistan.

Do note that it isn’t some imam in some dingy mosque carrying on like that, although now and then there will be one of those, too. Note as well that the overwhelming majority of Afghans, and the overwhelming majority of Afghan-Canadians, supported NATO’s intervention, and most of these people are, as it happens, Muslims.

Note well that these idiocies about blowback and retaliation do not generally come from the mosques at all. It’s the sort of rubbish that comes from out of the mouths of moral illiterates.

It should stop.

Terry Glavin is an author and journalist whose most recent book is Come From the Shadows.

© Copyright (c) The Ottawa Citizen


And, further, Terry Glavin comments on both his column and Alan Johnson's (in the post just preceding this one) in this commentary which is also reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the Ottawa Citizen

http://blogs.ottawacitizen.com/2013/05/24/fibbing-about-terrorism-badgering-muslims/
Quote
Fibbing About Terrorism & Badgering Muslims

Posted by: Terry Glavin

May 24, 2013

Alan Johnson is quite right, of course. It shouldn’t take a couple of deranged yobs howling Allahu Akbar and hacking to death the 25-year-old Royal Fusilier Lee Rigby in broad daylight on Wednesday in the South London borough of Woolwich to make it obvious. “We need to discuss the elephant in the room – the radical and sectarian, often violent, and sometimes fascistic political ideology and global movement of Islamism. Why? Because we are fighting against a religiously inspired ideology, jihadism, but we don’t want to talk about religion.”

This reluctance to get serious about that conversation is the source of so much fuzziness and reticence and timidity about the intimately related matter of “terrorism.” I’ve been banging on about this dangerous incoherence for quite some time and I touched on the subject again only a couple of weeks ago in the Ottawa Citizen. Just for starters, in Canada’s case, Section 83.01(1)(b) of the Criminal Code fails to distinguish between acts of violence that are unambiguously intended for terrorist mayhem and legitimate acts of revolutionary violence necessary to the purpose of regime change in state-terrorist tyrannies like that of Syria’s Bashar al-Assad. There is a difference.

Ever since September 11 there has been a legitimate argument about which is more destructive to open societies: the menace of Johnson’s “often violent and sometimes fascistic political ideology” that usually goes by the name terrorism, or the craven and supine apologetics for Islamist crackpotism that form such central motifs of liberal establishment opinion about it.

In my Ottawa Citizen column today I notice how moral illiteracy defines the way such reliably creepy arbiters of hip opinion as the Guardian’s Glenn Greenwald and the American celebrity bullshit artist Michael Moore are responding to the Woolwich atrocity. Michael Moore tries to get a laugh out of his Twitter followers about it, in his usual cheap and vulgar way, but it is only the fuzzy timidities around the definition and the common use of the term “terrorism” that allow Greenwald to so easily and completely normalize what he presents as perfectly understandable Muslim revenge violence.

The “causation” that Greenwald slips in without having the courage to make the case for it, the root cause, indeed the proximate cause of Wednesday’s atrocity, is “western violence against Muslims.” There it is. Wednesday’s outage was retaliation. It’s “our” fault, because “we” have been so mean to “them.” Can you imagine some Etobicoke imam getting away with saying something like that? Of course you can’t. He’d be run out of town on a bus by the good Muslims of Etobicoke.

I’m not so certain that occasional security lapses with tragic consequences are really the greater threat to our civil liberties and our sovereignty than demands for our outright capitulation all trussed up to look cool and sophisticated, as in this 2010 Haroon Siddiqui homily under the helpfully brazen headline To tackle domestic terrorism, end foreign wars. I’ve always thought it strange that the Toronto Star will shout and yell about the privatization of government services, but subcontracting Canada’s foreign policy to the Toronto 18? Hey, we’re cool with that.

My case is that it’s not “the Muslims” who have any explaining to do about the commonplace trope that the so-called West is at war with the so-called Muslim World, and that anytime some depraved and bloodthirsty lunatic who fancies himself as an aggrieved Muslim goes on a rampage in any one of the NATO countries we should take it as understandable, which is to say rational, behaviour. It is mainly that caste of moral illiterates among the celebrity opinion-arbiters of popular culture that has established this imbecility as, like, central to the discourse, man. It’s that lot that has some explaining to do. We might badger them for a change and give our innocently devout Muslim neighbours a rest for once, is my point.

Alan Johnson is quite right. It’s just that the question isn’t about Islam so much as it is about Islamism, which almost always takes on some form of terrorism. It’s not about “us” versus some Muslim “them.”

Johnson: “One of the fruits of globalisation is that the walls separating what concerns “us” from what concerns “them” have tumbled down. We are all “us”, now. The global is local. Woolwich made plain that the fear and the violence and the grieving that has spilled over from what the Muslim political scientist Bassam Tibi calls “Islam’s predicament with modernity” are now also ours to bear, and they will borne also by our children and our grandchildren. No more changing the subject.”

And no more excuse-making for wanton barbarism, either.


There is no need for further comments from me except to say that I agree with Terry Glavin. Islam is a religion, just one of many, and I have no serious qualms with any of them, so long as they stay in their temples, churches, synagogues, basilicas, mosques and cathedrals; Islamism is NOT a religion, it is a culturally based movement, and one which is, broadly and generally, wantonly barbaric and, therefore, one which we should and, I think, can eradicate.

Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: George Wallace on May 25, 2013, 11:14:12
While the Western World Sleeps.

Here is an interesting Documentary: 

The Third Jihad - Radical Islam's Vision for America (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XUub1no1qw)

More recent info at:

www.thethirdjihad.com (http://www.thethirdjihad.com/)

More insight into the above at:

A Second Look at 'The Third Jihad' (http://townhall.com/columnists/jeffjacoby/2012/02/13/a_second_look_at_the_third_jihad)



Some insight at the situation in the UK found in this documentary:

My Brother the Islamist (http://www.mybrothertheislamist.com/), by Tree Surgeon turned film-maker Robb Leech.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: George Wallace on May 25, 2013, 11:29:30
Well this time the flames of speculation were right. Islam gets a pass in the UK while anything against it is prosecuted to the full extent of the law. Pretending it doesn't is dishonest. One day the UK will wake up and find itself an Islamic state if it doesn't start addressing the problem soonest.

The thing is, is that the West (Europe and the Americas) are asleep.  By the time they wake up it will be too late.  If people want to be in denial, they are only delaying the inevitable.  It is here.  It is now.  We already have a topic on it:  They Walk Among Us (http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,81276.msg1231790.html#msg1231790).  Many are still in denial.  Those who look at this as being a REAL threat are often called one of many things: Bigots; Paranoid; Racists; Alarmists; and many other less popular or acceptable names.

Very few Muslims are actually free thinkers and open to the freedoms that we in the West enjoy.  A few have raised their voices in concern to what is happening.  One such person has publicly raised his concerns and been ignored by the majority of Muslims in America.  The following documentary is quite an eye opener:  The Third Jihad - Radical Islam's Vision for America (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XUub1no1qw)

If you visit the website, The Third Jihad (http://www.thethirdjihad.com/), you will see that there are some major concerns about our security being questioned.  In fact, if you take a look at A Second Look at 'The Third Jihad' (http://townhall.com/columnists/jeffjacoby/2012/02/13/a_second_look_at_the_third_jihad), you will find more insight.

Is it too late for us already?  Are we still asleep to what is unfolding around us?  How many still think that there is no threat to their comfortable way of life? 

I think we are still asleep.  Some of us may never wake up.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Jarnhamar on May 25, 2013, 12:31:26
I don't want to talk about Islam.

I want humans to exist peacefully with one another.
When a human behaves in contradiction to the greater good of mankind as a race, ie shooting up schools hacking up people in the street planning terror attacks, i want them removed from the public. I don't care why they claim to have done what they have done.

To me the why is inconsequential. I don't want them killing humans to inadvertently give them a platform to get their message out, even post humorously. By telling the murderers story were setting the next killer with a story up to take the stage.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: 2 Cdo on May 25, 2013, 13:10:03
The thing is, is that the West (Europe and the Americas) are asleep.  By the time they wake up it will be too late.  If people want to be in denial, they are only delaying the inevitable.  It is here.  It is now.  We already have a topic on it:  They Walk Among Us (http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,81276.msg1231790.html#msg1231790).  Many are still in denial.  Those who look at this as being a REAL threat are often called one of many things: Bigots; Paranoid; Racists; Alarmists; and many other less popular or acceptable names.

Very few Muslims are actually free thinkers and open to the freedoms that we in the West enjoy.  A few have raised their voices in concern to what is happening.  One such person has publicly raised his concerns and been ignored by the majority of Muslims in America.  The following documentary is quite an eye opener:  The Third Jihad - Radical Islam's Vision for America (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XUub1no1qw)

If you visit the website, The Third Jihad (http://www.thethirdjihad.com/), you will see that there are some major concerns about our security being questioned.  In fact, if you take a look at A Second Look at 'The Third Jihad' (http://townhall.com/columnists/jeffjacoby/2012/02/13/a_second_look_at_the_third_jihad), you will find more insight.

Is it too late for us already?  Are we still asleep to what is unfolding around us?  How many still think that there is no threat to their comfortable way of life? 

I think we are still asleep.  Some of us may never wake up.

I agree 100% George.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Jed on May 25, 2013, 13:17:21
The thing is, is that the West (Europe and the Americas) are asleep.  By the time they wake up it will be too late.  If people want to be in denial, they are only delaying the inevitable.  It is here.  It is now.  We already have a topic on it:  They Walk Among Us (http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,81276.msg1231790.html#msg1231790).  Many are still in denial.  Those who look at this as being a REAL threat are often called one of many things: Bigots; Paranoid; Racists; Alarmists; and many other less popular or acceptable names.

Very few Muslims are actually free thinkers and open to the freedoms that we in the West enjoy.  A few have raised their voices in concern to what is happening.  One such person has publicly raised his concerns and been ignored by the majority of Muslims in America.  The following documentary is quite an eye opener:  The Third Jihad - Radical Islam's Vision for America (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XUub1no1qw)


If you visit the website, The Third Jihad (http://www.thethirdjihad.com/), you will see that there are some major concerns about our security being questioned.  In fact, if you take a look at A Second Look at 'The Third Jihad' (http://townhall.com/columnists/jeffjacoby/2012/02/13/a_second_look_at_the_third_jihad), you will find more insight.

Is it too late for us already?  Are we still asleep to what is unfolding around us?  How many still think that there is no threat to their comfortable way of life? 

I think we are still asleep.  Some of us may never wake up.



I also agree with this. Let us, very vocally, speak out against the culture of Islamism and not against the religion of Islam.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Jed on May 25, 2013, 13:30:26
In fact, let us actively oppose with a view to eradicate 'The culture of Islamism' and to leave the religion of 'Islam' to its own devices.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Chris Pook on May 25, 2013, 13:34:43
To further address the difference between the broad and the narrow:

Christians went through a reformation and came out of the process fairly well.

But

The reformation, I would argue, was spurred in large part, by a small sector of society that felt the Catholics were spending too much time building pleasure domes in Rome and not enough time doing God's Work - Burning Witches.  We spent a hundred years and more in Scotland, doing that very thing, before we gave it up for a bad job and settled down to do God's real Work - selling American tobacco to the French and Indian opium to the Chinese.

 :)
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: George Wallace on May 25, 2013, 14:23:56
I don't want to talk about Islam.

We are not talking about Islam.  We are talking about Islamists.  Quite a difference.  Islamists are those who want to totally dominate the world with their views of the Quran.  They will seek any means to bring this about, including extreme forms of violence through to the subtle populating of all nations populaces through procreation.  They are the radicals who are not free thinkers, who believe that the word of God was written solely in the Quran and it is "black and white, with no shades of grey" even if there are contradictions in it.  Those contradictions are then overridden in the later chapters which state that forceful use of violence and murder of non-believers (non-Muslim and Muslim alike) are the way to world domination by their form of Islam.

I want humans to exist peacefully with one another.
When a human behaves in contradiction to the greater good of mankind as a race, ie shooting up schools hacking up people in the street planning terror attacks, i want them removed from the public. I don't care why they claim to have done what they have done.

To me the why is inconsequential. I don't want them killing humans to inadvertently give them a platform to get their message out, even post humorously. By telling the murderers story were setting the next killer with a story up to take the stage.

Western society, over the centuries, has evolved to be relatively peaceful and accepting of multiple cultures and religions.  The Islamists, although their religion is a relative latecomer to the religious scene, believe that theirs is the only true religion and the only one that should exist.  They have not evolved into a truly peaceful and accepting society as others have.  Their blind faith in their beliefs have separated them from modern societies, including those in most Muslim states.  They regress, rather than progress.  Violence is their primary choice to bring about their desires to conquer the world. 

It is interesting to watch some of the methods that they use to convert and radicalize new members into their fold.  My Brother The Islamist (http://www.mybrothertheislamist.com/) gives us some insight into how this is happening in Britain.  The Third Jihad (links in above posts), also shows how the prison population in the United States is a ripe recruiting ground for the Islamists. 

Wanting to live in peace comes at a price.  You have made the choice to "Serve" to protect the people of Canada.  You should not close your eyes to possible threats from within, nor hide your head in the sand and hope it will go away.  One of our past Prime Ministers was very adept at ignoring serious issues and hoping that they would just go away.  He never solved the problems, and just let them fester to come back larger and more dangerous in the future.   Let's not follow his example.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: E.R. Campbell on May 25, 2013, 16:19:46
To further address the difference between the broad and the narrow:

Christians went through a reformation and came out of the process fairly well.

But

The reformation, I would argue, was spurred in large part, by a small sector of society that felt the Catholics were spending too much time building pleasure domes in Rome and not enough time doing God's Work - Burning Witches.  We spent a hundred years and more in Scotland, doing that very thing, before we gave it up for a bad job and settled down to do God's real Work - selling American tobacco to the French and Indian opium to the Chinese.

 :)


The Christians had their reformation about 1,500 years after their religion was established; Islam has been around for about 1,400 years now so it's probably ripe for some of the same.

I have to repeat that I don't know enough about Islam to suggest how a reformation might work but I like to think it might come about in reaction to the Arabization of Islam in Asia. I fantasize that a revolt might be ignited by an Asian scholar, perhaps a woman like one I met in Malaysia about a year ago ...

This woman - who would live in one of the two "Chinese" provinces of predominantly Muslim Malaysia (Kuala Lumpur and Penang) - would speak out, at public meetings, in the newspapers and on TV. "Arabs are barbarians," she would say, "and they have nothing to teach us. The requirements to make our worship of our god more and more Arabic has nothing at all to do with Islam and everything to do with rich Arabs trying to foist their backwards culture on us. We do not not to read the holy Qur'an in Arabic; you and I can understand it just as well in Malay or English or even Chinese. I am an educated woman - better educated than most imans and mullahs, certainly better educated than any who come from Egypt or Saudi Arabia or, god forbid, Pakistan - and I have read the Qur'an and I understand it and I can debate it with any mufti or faqih. We can decide, we Asians, for ourselves how to live together ~ men and women, Malays and Chinese, Muslims and Buddhists ~ in harmony and how to worship our gods, each in our own ways, in peace. The Arabs bring us misery and discord; their rules ~ which are NOT found in the holy Qur'an ~ denigrate our cultural traditions and revile half of us, the women. We are an enlightened, civilized people, the Arabs are not; they are backwards boors and we need them out of our mosques, out of our law courts and universities and out of our political processes."
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: cupper on May 25, 2013, 19:44:57
We are not talking about Islam.  We are talking about Islamists.  Quite a difference.  Islamists are those who want to totally dominate the world with their views of the Quran.  They will seek any means to bring this about, including extreme forms of violence through to the subtle populating of all nations populaces through procreation.  They are the radicals who are not free thinkers, who believe that the word of God was written solely in the Quran and it is "black and white, with no shades of grey" even if there are contradictions in it.  Those contradictions are then overridden in the later chapters which state that forceful use of violence and murder of non-believers (non-Muslim and Muslim alike) are the way to world domination by their form of Islam.

Western society, over the centuries, has evolved to be relatively peaceful and accepting of multiple cultures and religions.  The Islamists, although their religion is a relative latecomer to the religious scene, believe that theirs is the only true religion and the only one that should exist.  They have not evolved into a truly peaceful and accepting society as others have.  Their blind faith in their beliefs have separated them from modern societies, including those in most Muslim states.  They regress, rather than progress.  Violence is their primary choice to bring about their desires to conquer the world. 

It is interesting to watch some of the methods that they use to convert and radicalize new members into their fold.  My Brother The Islamist (http://www.mybrothertheislamist.com/) gives us some insight into how this is happening in Britain.  The Third Jihad (links in above posts), also shows how the prison population in the United States is a ripe recruiting ground for the Islamists. 

Wanting to live in peace comes at a price.  You have made the choice to "Serve" to protect the people of Canada.  You should not close your eyes to possible threats from within, nor hide your head in the sand and hope it will go away.  One of our past Prime Ministers was very adept at ignoring serious issues and hoping that they would just go away.  He never solved the problems, and just let them fester to come back larger and more dangerous in the future.   Let's not follow his example.

You are not talking about Islamists. You are talking about Radical Islamic Fundamentalists or Islamic Extremists. A microscopic portion of people who have taken aspects of their own religion and perverted them to justify their own twisted world view. A group that feeds on the ignorant, the vulnerable and the hard-done-by to join their movement to further their cause.

I've worked with several people, both men and women, who are Muslims. Some devout, some secular. They come from various parts of the Muslim world, Asian, African, Middle Eastern. To a person that all held the same view that Islam is a religion of peace and acceptance. Each one  also agreed that the problem is that there needs to be an awakening of it's followers to the reality of today's global culture, and move away from the 12th Century views.

And to say that The West has evolved over the centuries to be relatively peaceful and accepting of other cultures and religions is to be willfully blind at the entire history of the West. From the Crusades, to the First Inquisitions,  the Spanish Conquests, The Second Inquisitions, the Jewish purges, the Slave Trade, The Rise of Nationalism, The Holocaust, Balkan Wars and Ethnic Cleansing, Western Society has shown more than it's fair share of ignorance and intolerance of people who follow a different path in life.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: cupper on May 25, 2013, 19:47:09
And before we further devolve this thread from it's original intent, I would like to suggest that the Mods consider splitting the debate about Islam off into it's own.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: George Wallace on May 25, 2013, 20:05:20
All I can say to you cupper, is you don't know who the Islamists are, and are confusing them with non-violent Muslims.

If you think that you are the only one exposed to Muslims and the only one to have Muslim friends, acquaintances or colleagues; please don't think yourself special.  I am sure the majority of site members have as well.

As for the West's societies having evolved into RELATIVELY peaceful and accepting of other cultures and religions, I tend to think they have, as opposed to your interpretation of history.  Of the many "Brush Wars" that exist today, a vast majority of them have a common factor; radical Islamists.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: GnyHwy on May 25, 2013, 20:23:33
The Christians had their reformation about 1,500 years after their religion was established; Islam has been around for about 1,400 years now so it's probably ripe for some of the same.


Wow, a religious debate.  I can't see this going well.   :pop:  If anything heats people up more than politics, it's religion.

That's an interesting fact that does make a lot of sense.  The fact we are shoving the "way it should be" down their throat probably isn't helping speed things up. 

I'm guessing it should happen any day now though.  :)

Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Jed on May 25, 2013, 20:29:52

Wow, a religious debate.  I can't see this going well.   :pop:  If anything heats people up more than politics, it's religion.
That's an interesting fact that does make a lot of sense.  The fact we are shoving the "way it should be" down their throat probably isn't helping speed things up. 

I'm guessing it should happen any day now though.  :)

No, this is not a religious debate. It is debate about how one identifies and then stamps out barbaric terrorism disguised as religion.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: cupper on May 25, 2013, 20:35:20
No, this is not a religious debate. It is debate about how one identifies and then stamps out barbaric terrorism disguised as religion.

 :rofl: :goodpost: :sarcasm:

It's a debate about how some people interpret their own religion, so I think we can accept that this is at its base level a religious debate.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: GnyHwy on May 25, 2013, 21:41:47
No, this is not a religious debate. It is debate about how one identifies and then stamps out barbaric terrorism disguised as religion.

This http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ali-a-rizvi/an-atheist-muslims-perspective-on-the-root-causes-of-islamist-jihadism-and-the-politics-of-islamophobia_b_3159286.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ali-a-rizvi/an-atheist-muslims-perspective-on-the-root-causes-of-islamist-jihadism-and-the-politics-of-islamophobia_b_3159286.html)
is a pretty good paper that speaks to the denial that religion is not involved or our unwillingness to acknowledge it as that.  Regardless of how misinformed, extreme or downright stupid these assholes are, it is the sacred texts that they are "cherry picking" their ideas from.  This is not limited to Islam, and like posted a few above, it wasn't that long ago that Christianity was doing the same; and still may be.

The whole article is a fair bit long and too big to post, but worth a read.  My favourite paragraph is - "This is a key difference for "new atheists." To us, the fight against religious ideology isn't a struggle against human rights but a struggle for them. Human beings have rights and are entitled to respect. Books and beliefs don't and aren't".

Edited to add:  I am not atheist nor theist.  I just like atheist's arguments because they remove the layers of bullshit and are not partial to any religion because of their non beliefs.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: cupper on May 25, 2013, 21:57:01
As for the West's societies having evolved into RELATIVELY peaceful and accepting of other cultures and religions, I tend to think they have, as opposed to your interpretation of history.

How do you explain the rise of nationalistic fervor that runs through out Europe, and has since the Early 90's? Not not just with the vocal right wing parties and followers, but even governments that put forth policies that fan the flames of anti-immigrant sentiment. France pushes its secular agenda and essentially strips all but Christians of the right to openly practice their religion. Germany treats immigrants as third class people. The Conservative Right in the US and its drum beat of anti-immigration policies.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: cupper on May 25, 2013, 22:04:58
Andrew Sullivan makes a few good points in a rebuttal of Glenn Greenwald's attempt to re-frame terrorist acts against the backdrop of what the West has done to the Muslim World.

An Islamist Beheading In Britain, Ctd

http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/2013/05/24/an-islamist-beheading-in-britain-ctd-3/

Quote
Greenwald refuses to label the beheading in London “terrorism,” calling it just another attempt to stir paranoia against Muslims:

    [T]he term at this point seems to have no function other than propagandistically and legally legitimizing the violence of western states against Muslims while delegitimizing any and all violence done in return to those states …

I really have to try restrain my anger here. First off, Glenn’s adoption of the view that the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan amounted to “continuous violence by western states against Muslim civilians” seems a new step toward the memes of Islamist propaganda. Does Glenn really believe that the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, however flawed, were deliberate attempts to kill Muslim civilians, in the way al Qaeda deliberately targets and kills Muslim civilians?

If he does, then I beg to differ. The reason we invaded Afghanistan was not because we decided to launch a war on Islam. It was because wealthy, Islamist, hypocritical bigots launched an unprovoked Jihadist mass murder of Western innocents from a cell based in a country run by a regime that specialized and specializes in the mass murder of other Muslims.

Before 9/11, America had saved Muslims in the Balkans from Christianist fanatics. We helped liberate Muslims in Afghanistan from Soviet oppression. We continue to give vast amounts of money to Muslim countries like Egypt, and, because of our economic development and need for oil made multi-billionaires out of Saudi clerics. And the war against Saddam, though a criminal enterprise and strategic catastrophe, nonetheless removed one of the most vicious mass murderers of Muslims on the planet. And the sectarian murder of Muslims that followed, however the ultimate responsibility for the occupying forces, was not done by Westerners. It was done by Muslims killing Muslims. The West, moreover, is committed to removing its troops from Afghanistan by next year and is fast winding down drone strikes.

How can that legitimize a British citizen’s brutal beheading of a fellow British citizen on the streets of London? If we cannot call a man who does that in the name of God and finishes by warning his fellow citizens “You will never be safe” a terrorist, who would fit that description, apart, of course, in Glenn’s view, Barack Obama?

The barbarian with the machete was not born in a Muslim country or land. He was born in Britain, educated at Marshalls Park school in Romford and Greenwich University.
He does not have a history of concern with foreign policy – or even sensitivity toward the mass murder of Muslims. There is no record of his protest against the mass murders by the Taliban – because those kinds of murders of Muslims he approves of. He is a convert to the Sunni Islamism of Anjem Choudary, whose street thugs were involved in a melee in a London street only last week as they attacked and scuffled with Shi’a Muslims. Choudary’s group wants Sharia law imposed on the UK, a war against Shiites everywhere, the brutal subjugation of women, and suppression of every freedom Glenn cares about. The idea that this foul, religious bigotry – when it provokes its adherents to the kind of barbarism we saw two days ago – is some kind of legitimate protest against a fast-ending war is just perverse.

I want the war in Af-Pak to end. I agree that blowback is a real problem. I was horrified by the Iraq war. I remain appalled by GTMO and the legacy of torture. But I cannot defend any analysis of what happened in London as some kind of legitimate protest against Western foreign policy rather than terrorism in its most animal-like form, created and sustained entirely by religious fanaticism which would find any excuse to murder, destroy and oppress Muslims and non-Muslims in the name of God.

They did this before 9/11 and before our invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq. They are doing it now in Syria in the name of the same God. These genocidal theocrats did not need to be spurred by the US and UK’s actions – although they can view those as a further inflammation. They are living out their twisted, foul faith – which requires them not merely to kill, but to hack and mutilate and dismember another human being and celebrate that fact with a glee and a pride that has absolutely nothing to do with foreign policy and everything to do with the evil lurking in the totalitarian’s soul.

I have to say I have always respected the sincerity and clarity of Greenwald’s critique of the war on terror. But his blindness to the savagery at the heart of Salafism is very hard to understand, let alone forgive.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Jed on May 25, 2013, 23:08:12
:rofl: :goodpost: :sarcasm:

It's a debate about how some people interpret their own religion, so I think we can accept that this is at its base level a religious debate.

Well if you follow this line of reasoning, then every time you say Christian or Spiritual or Higher Power or Nature Lover you are entering the realm of a religious debate.

The preceding posts do a pretty good job of defining the difference between Islamism and the religion of Islam. Choose what ever semantics you want, just because I say western Caucasian extremist white dude doesn't mean I am talking about white supremacists who may or may not have some sort of religious beliefs.

Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Jed on May 25, 2013, 23:25:30
This http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ali-a-rizvi/an-atheist-muslims-perspective-on-the-root-causes-of-islamist-jihadism-and-the-politics-of-islamophobia_b_3159286.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ali-a-rizvi/an-atheist-muslims-perspective-on-the-root-causes-of-islamist-jihadism-and-the-politics-of-islamophobia_b_3159286.html)
is a pretty good paper that speaks to the denial that religion is not involved or our unwillingness to acknowledge it as that.  Regardless of how misinformed, extreme or downright stupid these assholes are, it is the sacred texts that they are "cherry picking" their ideas from.  This is not limited to Islam, and like posted a few above, it wasn't that long ago that Christianity was doing the same; and still may be.

The whole article is a fair bit long and too big to post, but worth a read.  My favourite paragraph is - "This is a key difference for "new atheists." To us, the fight against religious ideology isn't a struggle against human rights but a struggle for them. Human beings have rights and are entitled to respect. Books and beliefs don't and aren't".

Edited to add:  I am not atheist nor theist.  I just like atheist's arguments because they remove the layers of bullshit and are not partial to any religion because of their non beliefs.

I don't buy that line. Human beings opinions and beliefs are integral to their personality and as such to some degree are entitled to respect. Since we all have to get along together in this world we need to be able accommodate the difference in opinions and personalities. Obviously extreme social violence, ala Islamism, can not be tolerated if we expect to have peace in this world.

For the record, I have my Christian beliefs, but I don't ram them don't anyone's throat and I tolerate the beliefs of the agnostics and atheists of the world. Many who are great human beings at heart and I count as my dearest friends and relatives. I personally do not have the psychological strength to look death in the eye if all that is on the other side is nothingness.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: cupper on May 25, 2013, 23:28:39
just because I say western Caucasian extremist white dude doesn't mean I am talking about white supremacists who may or may not have some sort of religious beliefs.

True, but you are being redundant by calling him Caucasian and white.  ;D

And also true, not all White Supremacists necessarily base their hatred of other races and cultures on their religious beliefs. 

Now had you added Christian Fundamentalist into the mix, we'd have a religious debate.

Anytime you add a modifier specific to a religious context, you are opening the door to discussion of that context.

In this case we are having a discussion related to the ideology of Islamism. Inherent in that ideology is the tenant of spreading Islam and more specifically its political aspects through out the Muslim World (or globally depending on your take). The Arab Spring is an example of the ideology in play.

You can slice it, dice it, ripple cut, Julienne or shoe string it. It still becomes a debate about religious beliefs.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Jed on May 25, 2013, 23:41:13


You can slice it, dice it, ripple cut, Julienne or shoe string it. It still becomes a debate about religious beliefs.

True, Cupper. If you choose to take it there. And in retrospect the average person would probably do just that. To me, the label Islamist is not the religion Islam similar to the label pedophile wearing a priest's collar is not the same as the Catholic religion.

Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: cupper on May 25, 2013, 23:44:42
I don't buy that line. Human beings opinions and beliefs are integral to their personality and as such to some degree are entitled to respect. Since we all have to get along together in this world we need to be able accommodate the difference in opinions and personalities. Obviously extreme social violence, ala Islamism, can not be tolerated if we expect to have peace in this world.

For the record, I have my Christian beliefs, but I don't ram them don't anyone's throat and I tolerate the beliefs of the agnostics and atheists of the world. Many who are great human beings at heart and I count as my dearest friends and relatives. I personally do not have the psychological strength to look death in the eye if all that is on the other side is nothingness.

First off, I think you missed the point of quote by the writer in the article. He is saying exactly what you are criticizing him for, that Human Beings have rights and are entitled to respect of their beliefs. However the author steps on his own scrotum by saying "Books and beliefs don't and aren't".

Secondly, don't confuse the corrupted and violent ideology of radical Islamic fundamentalists with Islamism and the tenants of Islam. What the Bin Ladens and Al Alakis and Al Zawahiris of the world espouse and their followers cling to is not compatible with the teachings of Islam. That is what needs to be stamped out. How do you do that? That is the question that should be asked.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: cupper on May 25, 2013, 23:49:38

You can slice it, dice it, ripple cut, Julienne or shoe string it. It still becomes a debate about religious beliefs.

True, Cupper. If you choose to take it there. And in retrospect the average person would probably do just that. To me, the label Islamist is not the religion Islam similar to the label pedophile wearing a priest's collar is not the same as the Catholic religion.

It's a stretch, but I'll give it to you.

I understand what you are saying, but the people that carry out these acts shouldn't be given the label of Islamist, it only gives some veil of credibility and justification to what they do. Rather the label that they deserve - Violent Criminal.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Jed on May 26, 2013, 00:00:35
First off, I think you missed the point of quote by the writer in the article. He is saying exactly what you are criticizing him for, that Human Beings have rights and are entitled to respect of their beliefs. However the author steps on his own scrotum by saying "Books and beliefs don't and aren't".

Secondly, don't confuse the corrupted and violent ideology of radical Islamic fundamentalists with Islamism and the tenants of Islam. What the Bin Ladens and Al Alakis and Al Zawahiris of the world espouse and their followers cling to is not compatible with the teachings of Islam. That is what needs to be stamped out. How do you do that? That is the question that should be asked.

I almost agree with you except for the above marked in orange. I think, from my readings of blogs, English translation of the Quran, etal, that a literal translation of the Quran, shows that the unchanging fundamentalist beliefs of these scum of the earth individuals, are indeed compatible with Islam.

This is not the same as fundamentalist Christians who get hung up on the old testament of the Bible and forget about the new testament.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: GnyHwy on May 26, 2013, 00:10:39
I don't buy that line.

Look at it again.
Quote
" To us, the fight against religious ideology isn't a struggle against human rights but a struggle for them. Human beings have rights and are entitled to respect. Books and beliefs don't and aren't".


As I see it, the argument against religious ideals isn't to strip persons of their freedoms, but rather to give them their freedoms to do what they want.  Do what you like and practice it cordially.  To argue and target the other person is wrong, but to argue the ideas (book) and perceptions (beliefs) is perfectly rational.  This is something that "believers" can't seem to get past. 

For some reason believers take it personally when someone questions what someone wrote 100s/1000s of years ago.
 
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: cupper on May 26, 2013, 00:11:26
Suicide bombings, killing of innocents, intolerance of other faiths including other sects within Islam are all incompatible with what Islam teaches.

From Wikipedia
Quote
Islam, as with other Abrahamic religions, views suicide as one of the greatest sins and utterly detrimental to one's spiritual journey. A verse in the Quran instructs;

    "And do not kill yourselves, surely God is most Merciful to you."
    — Qur'an, Sura 4(An-Nisa), ayat 29 [11]

Most Muslim scholars and clerics consider suicide forbidden and similarly include suicide bombing as being equally forbidden.

However, those who engage in Islamic terrorism, including those who attacked the World Trade Center on September 11, 2001, believe that those who use suicide attacks to kill "infidels" are rewarded with seventy-two virgins in paradise. Islamic spiritualism is not attained without maintenance and forbearance of peace. Bukhari and Muslim, two of the most renowned scholars in Islam, state: "He who believes in God and the Last Day should honour his guest, should not harm his neighbour, should speak good or keep quiet.". This provides an incentive for Muslims to preserve peace in order to attain higher status in the eyes of God. This applies to non-Muslims as well as Muslims as seen in the following quote by Prophet Muhammad: “Beware! Whoever is cruel and hard on a non-Muslim minority, or curtails their rights, or burdens them with more than they can bear, or takes anything from them against their free will; I [Prophet Muhammad] will complain against the person on the Day of Judgment.”

Abu Dawud: "This puts suicide bombing and suicide into proper perspective within Islamic traditions, ultimately denouncing suicide of any form."

The prohibition of suicide has also been recorded in statements of hadith, (sayings of Muhammad). For example:

    Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "He who commits suicide by throttling shall keep on throttling himself in the Hell Fire (forever) and he who commits suicide by stabbing himself shall keep on stabbing himself in the Hell-Fire."
    —Sahih al-Bukhari, 2:23:446

    Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "Whoever purposely throws himself from a mountain and kills himself, will be in the (Hell) Fire falling down into it and abiding therein perpetually forever; and whoever drinks poison and kills himself with it, he will be carrying his poison in his hand and drinking it in the (Hell) Fire wherein he will abide eternally forever; and whoever kills himself with an iron weapon, will be carrying that weapon in his hand and stabbing his abdomen with it in the (Hell) Fire wherein he will abide eternally forever."
    — Sahih al-Bukhari, 7:71:670

Furthermore, Ja'far Al-Sadiq, the sixth Shia Imam, has said the following with regards to suicide:

    Abi Walad said, I heard Aba Abd Allah say: “Whoever kills himself, intentionally, he will be in the fire of hell for eternity.”
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Brad Sallows on May 26, 2013, 01:51:36
The Islamists _are_ Islam.  The "peace and acceptance" - or any other stripe of reform - Muslims are the schismatics.

Christ's teachings are overwhelmingly peaceful but the religion which bears his name has been repeatedly perverted to serve tyranny and subjugation.  Mohammed's religion does not need to be twisted to serve subjugation - that is its aim.

The problem with Islamists "walking among us" is that they have no intention of assimilating.  If you're not going to assimilate, then stay the frick wherever you are.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: cupper on May 26, 2013, 02:09:47
The problem with Islamists "walking among us" is that they have no intention of assimilating.  If you're not going to assimilate, then stay the frick wherever you are.

And how do you define assimilation? :waiting:
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: George Wallace on May 26, 2013, 10:22:58
I understand what you are saying, but the people that carry out these acts shouldn't be given the label of Islamist,

As you are so often in the habit of using definitions from Wikipedia; how about this definition:

Islamist [ˈɪzləmɪst]
adj
(Non-Christian Religions / Islam) supporting or advocating Islamic fundamentalism

n
(Non-Christian Religions / Islam) a supporter or advocate of Islamic fundamentalism

Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged © HarperCollins Publishers 1991, 1994, 1998, 2000, 2003
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: George Wallace on May 26, 2013, 10:32:13
Suicide bombings, killing of innocents, intolerance of other faiths including other sects within Islam are all incompatible with what Islam teaches.

From Wikipedia

Again that trustworthy source, Wikipedia.  I call BS.

Here is some more info from the Quran:

Quote
Surah 9.5: "After the forbidden months have passed, slay the unbelievers wherever you find them; capture them, torture them, besiege them, prepare every stratagem of warfare against them..."

Surah 9.29: "Fight those who believe not in God nor the Last Day, Nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden By God and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the Religion Of truth, (even if they are) of the people of the Book, Until they pay the Jizya (a tax on infidels) With willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

From another source (http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Islamist+extremists):

Quote
Examples of verses from the Quran which have been quoted to justify attacks on civilians include


Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not. 2:216

The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter; 5:33

But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. 9:5

Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth! 9:29-30


You might note that both Surah 9.5 and Surah 9.29 do not specifically target infidels, but also includes fellow Muslims who may not follow what the Islamists consider the 'true' words of the Quran.  Surah 9.30 specifically targets other religions.

As noted in a previous posts, these are only two of over 100 Surahs that call for violence.  Surely you can not then deduce that this is truly a religion of peace and tolerance?  If you do, you have your head so far in the sand you will be raped on Man Thursday (Another hypocritical statement on their violent beliefs).
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: George Wallace on May 26, 2013, 10:40:22
And how do you define assimilation? :waiting:

Perhaps "integration" may have been a better word, but you apologist attitude should still see the intent of the statement.  If they are so unhappy/unaccepting with our way of life/culture/beliefs/religion/politics/etc. then they have the FREEDOM (in our society) to leave and go to a country where their beliefs have some common ground.   If that is too difficult for you to comprehend, then perhaps your usefulness in this discussion is over.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: George Wallace on May 26, 2013, 11:04:07
It is interesting to hear the statements from these murderers that these sorts of attacks are in retaliation to the West's military forces being in Iraq, Afghanistan, etc. and their killing of Muslims in foreign lands.  If we look at recent history, we will see that Muslim fundamentalists have actually initated attacks on the West well before any Western troops were deployed in force to Muslim nations.

Quote
Examples of attacks

•4 September 1972 - Munich Olympic Massacre.
•18 April 1983 - April 1983 U.S. Embassy bombing in Beirut, Lebanon. 63 killed.
•26 February 1993 - World Trade Center bombing. 6 killed.
•24 December 1994 - Air France Flight 8969 hijacking in Algiers by 3 members of Armed Islamic Group and another terrorist. 7 killed including 4 hijackers.
•25 June 1996 - Khobar Towers bombing, 20 killed, 372 wounded.
•7 August 1998 - 1998 United States embassy bombings in Tanzania and Kenya. 224 dead. 4000+ injured.
•11 September 2001 - September 11, 2001 attacks 4 planes hijacked and crashed into World Trade Center and The Pentagon by 19 hijackers. Nearly 3000 dead.[65]
•13 December 2001 - Suicide attack on India's parliament in New Delhi. Aimed at eliminating the top leadership of India and causing anarchy in the country. Allegedly done by Pakistan-based Islamist terrorist organizations, Jaish-E-Mohammad and Lashkar-e-Toiba.
•3 March 2002 - Suicide bomb attack on a Passover Seder in a Hotel in Netanya, Israel. 29 dead, 133 injured
•9 March 2002 - Café suicide bombing in Jerusalem; 11 killed, 54 injured.
•7 May 2002 - Bombing in al-Arbaa, Algeria. 49 dead, 117 injured.
•24 September 2002 - Machine Gun attack on Hindu temple in Ahmedabad, India. 31 dead, 86 injured.[66][67]
•12 October 2002 - Bombing in Bali nightclub. 202 killed, 300 injured.
•16 May 2004 - Casablanca Attacks - 4 simultaneous attacks in Casablanca killing 33 civilians (mostly Moroccans) carried by Salafaia Jihadia.
•11 March 2004 - Multiple bombings on trains near Madrid, Spain. 191 killed, 1460 injured. (alleged link to Al-Qaeda)
•3 September 2004 Approximately 344 civilians including 186 children, are killed during the Beslan school hostage crisis.[68][69]
•4 February 2005 - Muslim militants attacked the Christian community in Demsa, Nigeria, killing 36 people, destroying property and displacing an additional 3000 people.
•7 July 2005 - Multiple bombings in London Underground. 53 killed by four suicide bombers. Nearly 700 injured.
•23 July 2005 - Bomb attacks at Sharm el-Sheikh, an Egyptian resort city, at least 64 people killed.
•29 October 2005 - 29 October 2005 Delhi bombings. Over 60 killed and over 180 injured in a series of three attacks in crowded markets and a bus, just 2 days before the Diwali festival.[70]
•9 November 2005 - 2005 Amman bombings. Over 60 killed and 115 injured, in a series of coordinated suicide attacks on hotels in Amman, Jordan.[71][72] Four attackers including a husband and wife team were involved.[73]
•7 March 2006 - 2006 Varanasi bombings. An attack attributed to Lashkar-e-Toiba by Uttar Pradesh government officials, over 28 killed and over 100 injured, in a series of attacks in the Sankath Mochan Hanuman temple and Cantonment Railway Station in the Hindu holy city of Varanasi.[74] Uttar Pradesh government officials.

Source (http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Islamist+extremists)
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: PrairieThunder on May 26, 2013, 11:23:12
Don't forget the Air India bombing.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: George Wallace on May 26, 2013, 11:24:18
Don't forget the Air India bombing.

They were not Muslim extremists, but Sikh extremists.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: E.R. Campbell on May 26, 2013, 11:33:48
I'm sure there are man, many offensive passages in the Torah and the Christian Bible, too.

While the Christian, properly Protestant, reformation ~ which began around 1500 CE and more or less ended with the Peace of Westphalia in 1648 ~ was a religious thing it was not exclusively so: it was also, often dominantly, a socio-cultural phenomenon about the place or role of an emerging educated, independent, middle class. Additionally, there was a nationalist element that shouldn't be underestimated in Scandinavia, Britain, the Netherlands or the North German principalities.

In so far as the "rough edges" of Judaism, Christianity and Islam ~ those offensive passages and all that ~ the Jews and Christians "solved" them during the Enlightenment ~ which, if you accept Spinoza, Locke, Hutcheson and Hume as its "fathers," followed hot on the heels of the Reformation and, many would argue, rested upon the foundation of the Reformation.

In my view the solution to the "root causes" of Islamism (or jihadism or whatever we want to call the radical, violent, barbarian movement that uses Islam as both a crutch and a recruiting tool) lies in a Muslim Enlightenment which, I suspect must also rest upon a foundation of Reformation.

If we think 21st century Muslim violence is, in any way, more terrible than Christian violence it is because we have failed to study the Thirty Years War.

I have said many times that I am hoping for new Thirty (or Forty or Fifty) Years War that will sweep through the Islamic Crescent - probably in response to a Reformation movement - and will lay the place waste and ripe for an Enlightenment.

Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: George Wallace on May 26, 2013, 11:56:12
I have said many times that I am hoping for new Thirty (or Forty or Fifty) Years War that will sweep through the Islamic Crescent - probably in response to a Reformation movement - and will lay the place waste and ripe for an Enlightenment.

Or it could swing the opposite way, as we have seen in the distant past where Iran and Iraq, once the cradle of civilization and center of intellectual and scientific advancement, were decimated by an onslaught of fanatical intolerant religious zealots/invaders.  History is so cyclical, it could be happening again.  Time will tell.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: E.R. Campbell on May 26, 2013, 11:59:43
Or it could swing the opposite way, as we have seen in the distant past where Iran and Iraq, once the cradle of civilization and center of intellectual and scientific advancement, were decimated by an onslaught of fanatical intolerant religious zealots/invaders.  History is so cyclical, it could be happening again.


I think the causes of the most recent Iran-Iraq wars were complex, and while there was a sectarian component I, personally, doubt it was a dominant or even a very important factor. I think of Iran-Iraq wars as more like the Franco-Prussian varieties.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: George Wallace on May 26, 2013, 12:10:16
ERC

I was speaking of the DISTANT past.  Hundreds of centuries ago.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Brad Sallows on May 26, 2013, 12:13:57
>And how do you define assimilation?

Cultural, not linguistic.  Are there any more word games we can play?

>If we think 21st century Muslim violence is, in any way, more terrible than Christian violence it is because we have failed to study the Thirty Years War.

21st century Muslim violence is, so far, more terrible than 21st century Christian violence.  If it were 1613 I might judge differently, but it is 2013.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Fishbone Jones on May 26, 2013, 12:23:49
Suicide bombings, killing of innocents, intolerance of other faiths including other sects within Islam are all incompatible with what Islam teaches.

From Wikipedia

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPkwkmhaVvA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPkwkmhaVvA)

From Billy Connolly (at minimum, as reliable a source as Wikipedia)
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Jed on May 26, 2013, 12:32:18
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPkwkmhaVvA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPkwkmhaVvA)

From Billy Connolly (at minimum, as reliable a source as Wikipedia)

Hilarious, Recceguy. Now that's a good belly laugh.  :)
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: E.R. Campbell on May 26, 2013, 12:35:30
ERC

I was speaking of the DISTANT past.  Hundreds of centuries ago.


I don't know about "hundreds of centuries" (tens of thousands of years) but a few (almost eight) centuries ago the Mongols swept across Iran and Iraq and there was NO religious component to that, none at all. Eventually the Mongol invaders converted to Islam, the religion of the people they had conquered.

 
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Remius on May 26, 2013, 12:48:54
>And how do you define assimilation?

Cultural, not linguistic.  Are there any more word games we can play?

>If we think 21st century Muslim violence is, in any way, more terrible than Christian violence it is because we have failed to study the Thirty Years War.

21st century Muslim violence is, so far, more terrible than 21st century Christian violence.  If it were 1613 I might judge differently, but it is 2013.

Brad, since we are only 13 years into the 21st century there's still time for that to change.  But looking at the 20th century, things like the IRA, the KKK etc are all examples of Christian violence that are likely on par. 

It is 2013.  By western standards for western cultures.  Most Islamic states are likely where we were in 1613.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: jollyjacktar on May 26, 2013, 12:55:19
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPkwkmhaVvA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPkwkmhaVvA)

From Billy Connolly (at minimum, as reliable a source as Wikipedia)
"lift the kilt, big hairy set of balls..."  Awesome vid.   ;D
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: cupper on May 26, 2013, 12:56:39
>And how do you define assimilation?

Cultural, not linguistic.  Are there any more word games we can play?

It was a legitimate and reasonable question. I guess it was a little much to expect the same in return.

Perhaps I should clarify: By what definition do you determine if someone has "assimilated" or "integrated" into society?

Is it when they have accepted and participated in the societal norms while still practicing their own cultural and religious tenants?

Or is it when they have fully divested themselves of their past, essentially becoming a prototypical member of Western Society, in other words a member of the Borg. 
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Jed on May 26, 2013, 13:06:57
Brad, since we are only 13 years into the 21st century there's still time for that to change.  But looking at the 20th century, things like the IRA, the KKK etc are all examples of Christian violence that are likely on par.   

It is 2013.  By western standards for western cultures.  Most Islamic states are likely where we were in 1613.

I disagree. Not even close to being on par with Islamism violence and its tenants.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: cupper on May 26, 2013, 13:13:39
Since we are debating the legitimacy of definitions, It appears that the Associated Press has decided to suspend the use of Islamist as a term to describe Islamic terrorist groups.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2013/04/05/_islamist_definition_changed_in_the_ap_stylebook_two_days_after_illegal.html

Quote
The old definition read as (via the US News):

"Supporter of government in accord with the laws of Islam. Those who view the Quran as a political model encompass a wide range of Muslims, from mainstream politicians to militants known as jihadi."

While the new version reads a bit longer, and not unlike the immigration change, requests reporters take the time to offer more details on a case-by-case basis:

"An advocate or supporter of a political movement that favors reordering government and society in accordance with laws prescribed by Islam. Do not use as a synonym for Islamic fighters, militants, extremists or radicals, who may or may not be Islamists.

"Where possible, be specific and use the name of militant affiliations: al-Qaida-linked, Hezbollah, Taliban, etc. Those who view the Quran as a political model encompass a wide range of Muslims, from mainstream politicians to militants known as jihadi."

And if that isn't a legitimate definition by George's standards, Here is Merriam - Webster:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/islamist?show=0&t=1369584838

Quote
Is·lam·ism noun \is-ˈlä-ˌmi-zəm, iz-, -ˈla-; ˈiz-lə-\
1
: the faith, doctrine, or cause of Islam
2
: a popular reform movement advocating the reordering of government and society in accordance with laws prescribed by Islam
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: cupper on May 26, 2013, 13:24:38
http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,110654.msg1232002.html#msg1232002

Quote
Examples of attacks

•4 September 1972 - Munich Olympic Massacre.
•18 April 1983 - April 1983 U.S. Embassy bombing in Beirut, Lebanon. 63 killed.
•26 February 1993 - World Trade Center bombing. 6 killed.
•24 December 1994 - Air France Flight 8969 hijacking in Algiers by 3 members of Armed Islamic Group and another terrorist. 7 killed including 4 hijackers.
•25 June 1996 - Khobar Towers bombing, 20 killed, 372 wounded.
•7 August 1998 - 1998 United States embassy bombings in Tanzania and Kenya. 224 dead. 4000+ injured.
•11 September 2001 - September 11, 2001 attacks 4 planes hijacked and crashed into World Trade Center and The Pentagon by 19 hijackers. Nearly 3000 dead.[65]
•13 December 2001 - Suicide attack on India's parliament in New Delhi. Aimed at eliminating the top leadership of India and causing anarchy in the country. Allegedly done by Pakistan-based Islamist terrorist organizations, Jaish-E-Mohammad and Lashkar-e-Toiba.
•3 March 2002 - Suicide bomb attack on a Passover Seder in a Hotel in Netanya, Israel. 29 dead, 133 injured
•9 March 2002 - Café suicide bombing in Jerusalem; 11 killed, 54 injured.
•7 May 2002 - Bombing in al-Arbaa, Algeria. 49 dead, 117 injured.
•24 September 2002 - Machine Gun attack on Hindu temple in Ahmedabad, India. 31 dead, 86 injured.[66][67]
•12 October 2002 - Bombing in Bali nightclub. 202 killed, 300 injured.
•16 May 2004 - Casablanca Attacks - 4 simultaneous attacks in Casablanca killing 33 civilians (mostly Moroccans) carried by Salafaia Jihadia.
•11 March 2004 - Multiple bombings on trains near Madrid, Spain. 191 killed, 1460 injured. (alleged link to Al-Qaeda)
•3 September 2004 Approximately 344 civilians including 186 children, are killed during the Beslan school hostage crisis.[68][69]
•4 February 2005 - Muslim militants attacked the Christian community in Demsa, Nigeria, killing 36 people, destroying property and displacing an additional 3000 people.
•7 July 2005 - Multiple bombings in London Underground. 53 killed by four suicide bombers. Nearly 700 injured.
•23 July 2005 - Bomb attacks at Sharm el-Sheikh, an Egyptian resort city, at least 64 people killed.
•29 October 2005 - 29 October 2005 Delhi bombings. Over 60 killed and over 180 injured in a series of three attacks in crowded markets and a bus, just 2 days before the Diwali festival.[70]
•9 November 2005 - 2005 Amman bombings. Over 60 killed and 115 injured, in a series of coordinated suicide attacks on hotels in Amman, Jordan.[71][72] Four attackers including a husband and wife team were involved.[73]
•7 March 2006 - 2006 Varanasi bombings. An attack attributed to Lashkar-e-Toiba by Uttar Pradesh government officials, over 28 killed and over 100 injured, in a series of attacks in the Sankath Mochan Hanuman temple and Cantonment Railway Station in the Hindu holy city of Varanasi.[74] Uttar Pradesh government officials.

George, you do realize that of the examples you listed, only the 1972 Munich Massacre fits the proposition you made, that the "Islamists" were attacking long before Western Troops were massed in Muslim Nations.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: PuckChaser on May 26, 2013, 13:27:49
But looking at the 20th century, things like the IRA, the KKK etc are all examples of Christian violence that are likely on par. 

Did the IRA use the bible as justification for violence against the Brits? Just because they were Christians, doesn't mean they conducted "Christian violence". You've got 2 pretty weak examples.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: cupper on May 26, 2013, 13:34:09
The Irish "Troubles" stopped being a religious fight somewhere between the time of Cromwell and the French Revolution.

It was a fight for Irish Nationalism against the Occupation of the British. Catholic and Protestant was just a convenient line to separate the two groups.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: George Wallace on May 26, 2013, 13:35:39
http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,110654.msg1232002.html#msg1232002

George, you do realize that of the examples you listed, only the 1972 Munich Massacre fits the proposition you made, that the "Islamists" were attacking long before Western Troops were massed in Muslim Nations.

Really?  What date do you set as the date that Western Troops massed in Muslim Nations?  Please enlighten me.

I personally know of instances of Muslims from Algeria conducting violence in France in the early 1960's.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Remius on May 26, 2013, 13:36:44
You can disagree, but Christians have had 2000 years to get it out of their systems. (and even then, I'm not sure) Historically you can go back and see plenty of comparable examples.  Whether it's the KKK's public and secret lynchings and hangings, burning women at the stake because they had warts and cats or whether Islamists behead and throw acid in school girls faces. 

No religion has it's hands clean.  Religious violence is religious violence and tends to be the worst kind. 

I agree with ERC.  Islam is in need of a reformation.  One similar to what Christians went through.  Until then, it is likely that we will have to endure and face radicals in it's worst form.  How we face it though without compromising our own values is the real question.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: George Wallace on May 26, 2013, 13:49:00
Since we are debating the legitimacy of definitions, It appears that the Associated Press has decided to suspend the use of Islamist as a term to describe Islamic terrorist groups.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2013/04/05/_islamist_definition_changed_in_the_ap_stylebook_two_days_after_illegal.html

And if that isn't a legitimate definition by George's standards, Here is Merriam - Webster:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/islamist?show=0&t=1369584838

 ::)

I see your spelling with an "m" and not a "t".  IslamisT.  I am not talking about "Islamism"; but you have your slant on things and so I will leave you to it.

I would, however, like to point you to this in your link:

Quote
As with the "illegal" definition change, this latest tweak is being framed as a victory for activists—in this case, the Council on American-Islamic Relations—who called at the start of this year for the news organization to change their style guide, which is used widely but not universally by English-language publications. In a statement, CAIR said of the change, "We believe this revision is a step in the right direction and will result in fewer negative generalizations in coverage of issues related to Islam and Muslims."

CAIR may have links to terror organizations, and refuses to denounce various organizations such as Hamas and Hezbollah as terrorist organizations.  This makes CAIR suspect as stated in the final paragraph of your link:

Quote
Some in the conservative blogosphere are less than happy about the "Islamist" change, as you might expect, given that anti-Sharia activists routinely use the term to describe CAIR itself as an extremist organization. Then again, the AP wasn't exactly in the best standing with some on the right after the "illegal immigrant" Stylebook change, or for the news organization's Pulitzer Prize-winning series on the NYPD's covert monitoring of New York Muslims.

But if you are so inclined to ignore this; fine.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: cupper on May 26, 2013, 13:59:16
Really?  What date do you set as the date that Western Troops massed in Muslim Nations?  Please enlighten me.

I personally know of instances of Muslims from Algeria conducting violence in France in the early 1960's.

Well, starting with the 1983 US Embassy Bombings in Lebanon, I seem to recall that there were a significant number of US, French and other Western Troops in place. Many were killed when the truck bomb went off at the Marine Cops Barracks in Beirut.

And everything listed thereafter falls after Gulf I.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: cupper on May 26, 2013, 14:04:07
 :deadhorse: :brickwall:

I guess you and I are just going to agree to disagree.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: jollyjacktar on May 26, 2013, 16:37:17
(https://Air-Force.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia.moddb.com%2Fcache%2Fimages%2Fgroups%2F1%2F6%2F5319%2Fthumb_620x2000%2FReligion_of_peace.jpg&hash=bc531a4bfb3467e36174f22da55c6eaa)

How true, how true. 
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: George Wallace on May 26, 2013, 19:01:49
Well, starting with the 1983 US Embassy Bombings in Lebanon, I seem to recall that there were a significant number of US, French and other Western Troops in place. Many were killed when the truck bomb went off at the Marine Cops Barracks in Beirut.

And everything listed thereafter falls after Gulf I.

Really?  We all know that there were a lot of US Marines in the US Embassy in Lebanon.  That is a fact.  Were they out fighting Lebanese?  NO they were not.  Their presence in the US Embassy in Beirut has no relevance to this argument.  Nor do any of the other Western troops who were sent to protect their diplomatic staffs.

As for the Gulf War in 1990, I seem to recall it was due to a call by the Kuwaiti Government for help and protection from an invading Iraqi army.  Not the "Evil Empire" you seem to allude to.  It does show that these Muslim extremists can not distinguish between someone coming to their aid and someone invading.  But I guess that is 'gratitude for you'. 

I think that Dr. Zuhdi Jasser has some very sound advice, that we should be looking to other 'resources' in order to stop pumping dollars into oil producing Arab countries, and stop funding their extremist organizations.  Once the money stops, they will have fewer means to spread their religious and political vitriol views.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: cupper on May 26, 2013, 20:08:44
Not the "Evil Empire" you seem to allude to.

WTF?

Now you're just ....

 :nevermind: Not worth going there.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: George Wallace on May 26, 2013, 20:18:51
WTF?

Now you're just ....


What?  Extrapolating what you really want to say from your posts?   Come on.  Let your inner voice out.   >:D
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: cupper on May 26, 2013, 20:29:07
 :boring:

Moving on.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Brad Sallows on May 26, 2013, 21:37:40
>Most Islamic states are likely where we were in 1613.

Islamic states are pursuing anti-blasphemy laws at the UN; they know the modern world and the international norms of human rights and customs.  Civilized behaviour in the 21st century is not unknown to them.  The neat thing about discovery is that it takes much less time to emulate than to discover something.  Stone-age tribes discovered in the modern era will not need 5,000 years to fully adapt to the world around them.

The Irish "troubles" stem from nationalism.  The KKK stems from racialism.  Religion in both cases is the facade and sometime excuse, not the motivator.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: cupper on May 26, 2013, 21:50:25
There was/is an element of religious intolerance with respect to the KKK. They had a history of anti-catholic views, and antisemitism was just as rampant as the racial intolerance. A lot of their views were justified from twisting various passages from the Bible to suit their needs.

But religion wasn't a significant part of their agenda to consider them religiously motivated.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Cdn Blackshirt on May 27, 2013, 11:42:26
For those waxing poet about the huge difference between the religion of Islam and Islamist, stop reading the headlines and do your own research....in particular read the texts yourself.

Islam is the religion.

Islamists are those following the tenets of the religion.

And for those that say "It's a tiny portion of the population committing the attacks." - Yep.  But ask yourself what the true support levels are for their actions.

Imams can draw thousands of Muslims into the streets chanting "Death to _________" over cartoons, fake movies and a number of other perceived slights of the religion.

Not to mention their views on Guantanamo.....

Why is we're not seeing those same Imam's calling for mass demonstration against terrorist attacks? 

If you think about it, you're not going to like the answer which is "There is popular support for jihad." 

If there wasn't, you would have seen dramatically different messages and actions coming from the mosques....including extremely clear messaging about what jihad entails, when it is justified, what it includes....and most importantly what is not justified, what is heresy, what will not entitle the attackers to be buried in a Islamic Ceremonies.  When those statements begin to be issued, then and only then will I consider us making real progress.


M.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Jed on May 27, 2013, 11:56:23
For those waxing poet about the huge difference between the religion of Islam and Islamist, stop reading the headlines and do your own research....in particular read the texts yourself.

Islam is the religion.

Islamists are those following the tenets of the religion.

And for those that say "It's a tiny portion of the population committing the attacks." - Yep.  But ask yourself what the true support levels are for their actions.

Imams can draw thousands of Muslims into the streets chanting "Death to _________" over cartoons, fake movies and a number of other perceived slights of the religion.

Not to mention their views on Guantanamo.....

Why is we're not seeing those same Imam's calling for mass demonstration against terrorist attacks? 

If you think about it, you're not going to like the answer which is "There is popular support for jihad." 

If there wasn't, you would have seen dramatically different messages and actions coming from the mosques....including extremely clear messaging about what jihad entails, when it is justified, what it includes....and most importantly what is not justified, what is heresy, what will not entitle the attackers to be buried in a Islamic Ceremonies.  When those statements begin to be issued, then and only then will I consider us making real progress.


M.

Good Post. I hope everyone lets this message sink in.  :goodpost:
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: George Wallace on May 27, 2013, 12:19:04
Good Post. I hope everyone lets this message sink in.

Unfortunately that message has been out for a long time and has not sunk in yet.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Teager on May 27, 2013, 12:22:13
This is just the smae story of the 2 accused in the VIA rail plot from the Toronto Star. At the bottom of the article this is what is said by a man from the mosque in Scarborough.

"Esseghaier was “a very nice guy, very intelligent, very humble,” Mohamed Ali told the Star earlier this month.

Jaser, he said, was also a nice guy — the kind who would lend you money or give you a ride — but he did talk every so often about radicalism, Ali said.

“I just thought it was coffee talk,” he said."

More at link http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2013/05/23/toronto_terror_plot_suspect_asks_for_defence_lawyer_who_is_guided_by_holy_book.html

So from what I understand its normal to talk about radicalism during coffee? I think this just goes to further a lot of the points above.

Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Colin P on May 27, 2013, 13:00:17
Part of the problem for a moderate Muslim is there is significant pressure to follow the crowd or the Iman, both verbally and physically. Islam is about submission and that allows it to be abused and people to be reluctant to question Fatwa's and edicts.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: E.R. Campbell on May 27, 2013, 13:17:07
Part of the problem for a moderate Muslim is there is significant pressure to follow the crowd or the Iman, both verbally and physically. Islam is about submission and that allows it to be abused and people to be reluctant to question Fatwa's and edicts.


I agree, I have heard this from Muslims in Canada and in Asia.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: George Wallace on May 27, 2013, 13:19:37
Those very few who do raise more "modern" concerns and voice their disapproval of violence are often ostracised by the rest of the Muslim community.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Colin P on May 27, 2013, 15:56:58
I don't think most of us realize the risk those people take that do stand up. Hell most people here won't stand up to tell their boss that "dumbass idea de jour" is just that.

Also having watched my own inlaws grapple with stuff, I equate it to a similar situation with abused spouses staying with the abuser.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Jed on May 27, 2013, 16:08:22
You are right about the difficulty of standing up and being counted. It never has been easy but I think if you are Muslim, this is the time it must be done. Riding the fence has gone on way to long.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: milnews.ca on May 27, 2013, 16:47:42
Part of the problem for a moderate Muslim is there is significant pressure to follow the crowd or the Iman, both verbally and physically. Islam is about submission and that allows it to be abused and people to be reluctant to question Fatwa's and edicts.

I agree, I have heard this from Muslims in Canada and in Asia.

Those very few who do raise more "modern" concerns and voice their disapproval of violence are often ostracised by the rest of the Muslim community.

Thanks, all, for these tidbits - I've scratched my head a lot about why we don't hear more from (what I'm guessing is) the silent majority of Muslims in the West who just want to live their lives, period.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: 2 Cdo on May 27, 2013, 17:16:16
If so-called moderate muslims were the majority wouldn't it be easy for them to rise up as one? Or is this just smoke and mirrors due to a tacit support for "extreme" muslim behaviour.  ???
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: old fart on May 27, 2013, 17:24:34
You tube clip....a young lady called Stacy Dooley returns to her home town of Luton.....

I first watched this a year ago....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juf9cxPucLM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juf9cxPucLM)

Titled "TIP OF THE ICEBERG THE BEGINNING OF THE END FOR BRITAIN"

Sharia, the solution for the UK.....feck me.....
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: milnews.ca on May 27, 2013, 17:33:29
If so-called moderate muslims were the majority wouldn't it be easy for them to rise up as one? Or is this just smoke and mirrors due to a tacit support for "extreme" muslim behaviour.  ???
If the pressure is real, it might be more like this....
.... I equate it to a similar situation with abused spouses staying with the abuser.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Jed on May 27, 2013, 17:36:40
You tube clip....a young lady called Stacy Dooley returns to her home town of Luton.....

I first watched this a year ago....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juf9cxPucLM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juf9cxPucLM)

Titled "TIP OF THE ICEBERG THE BEGINNING OF THE END FOR BRITAIN"

Sharia, the solution for the UK.....feck me.....

That young lady showed a lot of guts. I've been in a similar situation myself and the pucker factor can get pretty high. How long can the British people tolerate this BS?

Where are the Brits of old that tossed Neville Chamberlain out on his arse and put in Churchill?


Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: E.R. Campbell on May 27, 2013, 17:56:09
I think many "moderate" Muslims have some - not a lot, but some - sympathy for those who are said to be victims of Western aggression. It is all too easy to forget that many Western interventions have been to protect Muslims - the Balkans, for example - because in so many cases all we see and hear, in the Western media, are reports of Muslim victims of violence. It is too easy to ignore the fact, and it is a fact, that many (most?) Muslims are victims of Muslim violence.

We know that there was considerable, collective blame levied at Muslims - it wasn't from official Washington, or London, or Ottawa, but it was there all the same.  It's a bit hard to blame many Muslims for being both a bit defensive and a bit confused; they are told, in one breath, that we're all equal and all religions are equally safe and free and then, in the next breath, they're told that they cannot build a cultural centre too close to "ground zero," the site of the former World Trade Center.

In Asia moderate Muslims are under increasing pressure to Arabize their worship and even their general cultural practices. Middle Eastern social mores are being imposed - not just dress codes for women, which are not, I'm assured by well educated Muslims, mandated in the Qur'an, but customs that are quite foreign to both Islam and Asia. That's why I think a Muslim Reformation might begin in Indonesia or, more likely, Malaysia.

But what I think we see, here, in North America, is confusion: "moderate" Muslims are, themselves, confused by the mixed messages we - the established, mainly Christian majority - send to them and also by the decidedly mixed messages they hear in their mosques and read in community newspapers. Much of the Muslim leadership seems convinced that only imans and mullahs who were trained in the Middle East or Iran are acceptable - if we're going to limit foreign workers we could, usefully, start by restricting foreign preachers.

As others have said, it's had for anyone to speak out when the majority is silent; it's harder when there is a minority that opposes or harasses those who do speak out. We should not expect more of Muslims than we see from Christians - who are not famous for opposing the likes of Hitler, Stalin, Pinochet, Karadzic and Mladic.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Jed on May 27, 2013, 18:03:52
I think many "moderate" Muslims have some - not a lot, but some - sympathy for those who are said to be victims of Western aggression. It is all too easy to forget that many Western interventions have been to protect Muslims - the Balkans, for example - because in so many cases all we see and hear, in the Western media, are reports of Muslim victims of violence. It is too easy to ignore the fact, and it is a fact, that many (most?) Muslims are victims of Muslim violence.

We know that there was considerable, collective blame levied at Muslims - it wasn't from official Washington, or London, or Ottawa, but it was there all the same.  It's a bit hard to blame many Muslims for being both a bit defensive and a bit confused; they are told, in one breath, that we're all equal and all religions are equally safe and free and then, in the next breath, they're told that they cannot build a cultural centre too close to "ground zero," the site of the former World Trade Center.

In Asia moderate Muslims are under increasing pressure to Arabize their worship and even their general cultural practices. Middle Eastern social mores are being imposed - not just dress codes for women, which are not, I'm assured by well educated Muslims, mandated in the Qur'an, but customs that are quite foreign to both Islam and Asia. That's why I think a Muslim Reformation might begin in Indonesia or, more likely, Malaysia.

But what I think we see, here, in North America, is confusion: "moderate" Muslims are, themselves, confused by the mixed messages we - the established, mainly Christian majority - send to them and also by the decidedly mixed messages they hear in their mosques and read in community newspapers. Much of the Muslim leadership seems convinced that only imans and mullahs who were trained in the Middle East or Iran are acceptable - if we're going to limit foreign workers we could, usefully, start by restricting foreign preachers.

As others have said, it's had for anyone to speak out when the majority is silent; it's harder when there is a minority that opposes or harasses those who do speak out. We should not expect more of Muslims than we see from Christians - who are not famous for opposing the likes of Hitler, Stalin, Pinochet, Karadzic and Mladic.


I agree that we should not expect more of Christians vs Muslims. I think we should expect more of all peoples in our democratic nations. A whole lot more.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Colin P on May 27, 2013, 18:17:11
I recall several people living in dictatorships who believe that only they felt oppressed and were surprised to find that many felt the same way about the regime. On top of the fear of exclusion from society, you have a very real fear of very viscous thugs that will likely or want to torture you and your family and you have religious induced guilt.   
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Jarnhamar on May 27, 2013, 18:23:46
Overheard a lot of racism and anti-muslim comments at a gun show this weekend.  Pretty embarrassing. It's too bad that  the actions of psychopaths can cast so many people in such a dark light.

Quote
As others have said, it's had for anyone to speak out when the majority is silent; it's harder when there is a minority that opposes or harasses those who do speak out. We should not expect more of Muslims than we see from Christians - who are not famous for opposing the likes of Hitler, Stalin, Pinochet, Karadzic and Mladic.

Totally agree.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Jed on May 27, 2013, 18:50:19
When all freedom loving nations went to war against the likes of Hitler and Mussolini our soldiers fought against all the German and Italian soldiers of those nations not just Nazis and SS. Many good human beings were not deserving of where karma had placed them. If our battle is against Islamism, many good Muslims will pay the price as will many good Christians, Buddhists, Atheists etal.

We can not hope and wish that the battle will just go away. It is a battle that must be fought if we wish to preserve our democratic societies.

Prejudice and racism is in all people to some extent. In times of war this is often used to strengthen the resolve of combatants to do the (what should be anyway) unthinkable, take the life of an enemy.

But, most of you have signed on the dotted line at some time in the past to fight against your nation's enemies, so this soapbox speech is redundant.

I feel for the timid and innocent peaceful Muslims, but only they can truly be in the vanguard of dealing with Muslim extremists. They will have a tough row to hoe but their collective complacency makes it imperative that democratic societies take action to eradicate this Muslim terrorist blight on mankind.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Hamish Seggie on May 27, 2013, 19:01:35
 :ditto: :goodpost:


Well said.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: jollyjacktar on May 27, 2013, 19:31:29
I think many "moderate" Muslims have some - not a lot, but some - sympathy for those who are said to be victims of Western aggression. It is all too easy to forget that many Western interventions have been to protect Muslims - the Balkans, for example - because in so many cases all we see and hear, in the Western media, are reports of Muslim victims of violence. It is too easy to ignore the fact, and it is a fact, that many (most?) Muslims are victims of Muslim violence.

We know that there was considerable, collective blame levied at Muslims - it wasn't from official Washington, or London, or Ottawa, but it was there all the same.  It's a bit hard to blame many Muslims for being both a bit defensive and a bit confused; they are told, in one breath, that we're all equal and all religions are equally safe and free and then, in the next breath, they're told that they cannot build a cultural centre too close to "ground zero," the site of the former World Trade Center.

In Asia moderate Muslims are under increasing pressure to Arabize their worship and even their general cultural practices. Middle Eastern social mores are being imposed - not just dress codes for women, which are not, I'm assured by well educated Muslims, mandated in the Qur'an, but customs that are quite foreign to both Islam and Asia. That's why I think a Muslim Reformation might begin in Indonesia or, more likely, Malaysia.

But what I think we see, here, in North America, is confusion: "moderate" Muslims are, themselves, confused by the mixed messages we - the established, mainly Christian majority - send to them and also by the decidedly mixed messages they hear in their mosques and read in community newspapers. Much of the Muslim leadership seems convinced that only imans and mullahs who were trained in the Middle East or Iran are acceptable - if we're going to limit foreign workers we could, usefully, start by restricting foreign preachers.

As others have said, it's had for anyone to speak out when the majority is silent; it's harder when there is a minority that opposes or harasses those who do speak out. We should not expect more of Muslims than we see from Christians - who are not famous for opposing the likes of Hitler, Stalin, Pinochet, Karadzic and Mladic.

Well said, ER.  I especially like the thought of keeping these hate preachers out of Canada.  We don't want to get to the state the UK finds itself in now with these assclowns causing no end of trouble and no way to get rid of them.  Any foreigner who comes here and trys to sow hate should find themselves on a one way flight back to whence the came immediately.  Just like in Monopoly, go directly to jail, do not pass go, do not collect $200.  Immediate enforcement, no BS or waffle.  If we can't stamp them out, kick them out.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: ModlrMike on May 27, 2013, 21:06:45
...if we're going to limit foreign workers we could, usefully, start by restricting foreign preachers.

As much as I agree, the reality is that there are too many "social activists" who would quickly label us racist; especially the current government. Once you throw out the "R" word, all rational discussion ceases.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: George Wallace on May 27, 2013, 22:05:39
As much as I agree, the reality is that there are too many "social activists" who would quickly label us racist; especially the current government. Once you throw out the "R" word, all rational discussion ceases.

Yes.  It is a sad fact that our Charter of Human Rights and our Legal System bends over backwards to protect the "Rights" of these scum.  If I had my chance to run a "Police State", I would strip them of their passports, whether they were Canadian citizens who immigrated here, or native born, and send them to an Islamist nation of my choosing.  They do not recognize our Laws, unless they are used to protect them.  They don't want to integrate into our multi-cultural society.  They want to convert us all to their religion and Sharia Law.  Then what the frack are they doing in a Western nation?  Send them to a state that reflects their beliefs.  They do not deserve to be Canadians, Americans, Mexicans, Brits, Germans, Danes, Swedes, Aussies, etc.   

Is that Racism or protecting our society from violence and chaos?  It is "Harsh Love".  Everyone gets to live an existing nation, in the society that their beliefs dictate.

Then again, I will not likely be running a "Police State" in any reality.   :)

I have to put up with a reality that I live in a society that caters more to the perpetrators, than to the victims.  Such is our lot. :peace:
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Hamish Seggie on May 27, 2013, 22:19:11
As much as I agree, the reality is that there are too many "social activists" who would quickly label us racist; especially the current government. Once you throw out the "R" word, all rational discussion ceases.
Then we need to counter attack the social activists.

Give concrete examples of radical preachers who immigrate here and spread their poison. Expose them for the frauds they are and deport them.

Deport the bad apples, as soon as legally possible.

For those "Canadian" who choose to live their "old country" and want a free lift home when crap hits the fan.....I say you made your own bed, you lie in it. Make your own way back to Canada.

Oh and by the way, my mum, all 92 years of her, is an immigrant. My grandad and grand up on my Dad's side were immigrants.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Brad Sallows on May 27, 2013, 22:53:10
Political history should be enough to convince people that it doesn't take a large faction to apply enough pressure to keep a moderate majority in check and unsure of itself (the moderate majority).

>Islam is about submission and that allows it to be abused and people to be reluctant to question Fatwa's and edicts.

Yet: Islam is a religion in which, as I understand it, the imams are unnecessary.  There is no need for any intercessor between God and one of the faithful.  The opinion of imams is a nice-to-have, not a necessity.  The Koran has been written; it can be read.  It doesn't need to be interpreted by a third party.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Remius on May 27, 2013, 22:54:58
Gee guys, why would activists label anyone here as racist?  ::)
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: 2 Cdo on May 27, 2013, 23:06:15
Gee guys, why would activists label anyone here as racist?  ::)

Exactly what race is islam?  ::)
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: cupper on May 27, 2013, 23:15:07
Exactly what race is islam?  ::)

The race to enlightenment? ;D
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Colin P on May 28, 2013, 11:04:24
Exactly what race is islam?  ::)

Well the Arabs do claim they are the "true Muslims" and that everyone should follow their example as they were chosen by Allah.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: E.R. Campbell on June 02, 2013, 13:41:03
Former UK Prime Minister Tony Blair speaks out on the "problem within Islam" in this column which is reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the Mail on Sunday:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2334560/The-ideology-Lee-Rigbys-murder-profound-dangerous-Why-dont-admit--Tony-Blair-launches-brave-assault-Muslim-extremism-Woolwich-attack.html
Quote
The ideology behind Lee Rigby's murder is profound and dangerous. Why don't we admit it?:
Tony Blair launches a brave assault on Muslim extremism after Woolwich attack


By TONY BLAIR

PUBLISHED: 01:01 GMT, 2 June 2013

There is only one view of the murder of Lee Rigby: horrific. But there are two views of its significance.

One is that it is the act of crazy people, motivated in this case by a perverted idea about Islam, but of no broader significance.

Crazy people do crazy things. So don’t overreact.

The other view is that this act was indeed horrible; and that the ideology which inspired it is profound and dangerous.
I am of this latter view.

So of course we shouldn’t overreact. We didn’t after July 7, 2005. But we did act. And we were right to. The actions by our security services will undoubtedly have prevented other serious attacks.

The ‘Prevent’ programme in local communities was sensible. The new measures of the Government seem reasonable and proportionate.

However, we are deluding ourselves if we believe that we can protect this country simply by what we do here. The ideology is out there. It isn’t diminishing.

Consider the Middle East. As of now, Syria is in a state of accelerating disintegration. President Assad is brutally pulverising communities hostile to his regime. At least 80,000 have died. The refugees now total more than one million. The internally displaced are more than four million.

Many in the region believe that the Assad intention is to ethnically cleanse the Sunni from the areas dominated by his regime and then form a separate state around Lebanon. There would then be a de facto Sunni state in the rest of Syria, cut off from the wealth of the country or the sea.

The Syrian opposition is made up of many groups. The fighters are increasingly the Al Qaeda- affiliated group Jabhat al-Nusra. They are winning support, and arms and money from outside the country.

Assad is using chemical weapons on a limited but deadly scale. Some of the stockpiles are in fiercely contested areas.

The overwhelming desire of the West is to stay out of it. This is completely understandable. But we must also understand: we are at the beginning of this tragedy. Its capacity to destabilise the region is clear.

Jordan is behaving with exemplary courage, but there is a limit to the refugees it can reasonably be expected to absorb. Lebanon is now fragile as Iran pushes Hezbollah into the battle. Al Qaeda is back trying to cause carnage in Iraq and Iran continues its gruesome meddling there.

To the South in Egypt and across North Africa, Muslim Brotherhood parties are in power, but the contradiction between their ideology and their ability to run modern economies means that they face growing instability and pressure from more extreme groups.

Then there is the Iranian regime, still intent on getting a nuclear weapon, still exporting terror and instability to the West and the east of it. In sub-Saharan Africa, Nigeria is facing awful terror attacks. In Mali, France has been fighting a pretty tough battle.

And we haven’t mentioned Pakistan or Yemen. Go to the Far East and look at the western border between Burma and Bangladesh. Look at recent events in Bangladesh itself, or the Mindanao dispute in the Muslim region of the Philippines.

In many of the most severely affected areas, one other thing is apparent: a rapidly growing population. The median age in the Middle East is in the mid-20s. In Nigeria it’s 19. In Gaza, where Hamas hold power, a quarter of the population is under five.

When I return to Jerusalem soon, it will be my 100th visit to the Middle East since leaving office, working to build a Palestinian state. I see first-hand in this region what is happening.

So I understand the desire to look at this world and explain it by reference to local grievances, economic alienation and of course ‘crazy people’. But are we really going to examine it and find no common thread, nothing that joins these dots, no sense of an ideology driving or at least exacerbating it all?

There is not a problem with Islam. For those of us who have studied it, there is no doubt about its true and peaceful nature. There is not a problem with Muslims in general. Most in Britain will be horrified at Lee Rigby’s murder.

But there is a problem within Islam – from the adherents of an ideology that is a strain within Islam. And we have to put it on the table and be honest about it.

Of course there are Christian extremists and Jewish, Buddhist and Hindu ones. But I am afraid this strain is not the province of a few extremists. It has at its heart a view about religion and about the interaction between religion and politics that is not compatible with pluralistic, liberal, open-minded societies.

At the extreme end of the spectrum are terrorists, but the world view goes deeper and wider than it is comfortable for us to admit. So by and large we don’t admit it. This has two effects. First, those with that view think we are weak and that gives them strength.

Second, those within Islam – and the good news is there are many – who actually know this problem exists and want to do something about it, lose heart. All over the Middle East and beyond there is a struggle being played out.

On the one side, there are Islamists who have this exclusivist and reactionary world view. They are a significant minority, loud and well organised. On the other are the modern-minded, those who hated the old oppression by corrupt dictators and who hate the new oppression by religious fanatics. They are potentially the majority, but unfortunately they are badly organised.

The seeds of future fanaticism and terror, possibly even major conflict, are being sown. We have to help sow seeds of reconciliation and peace. But clearing the ground for peace is not always peaceful.

The long and hard conflicts in Afghanistan and Iraq have made us wary of any interventions abroad. But we should never forget why they were long and hard. We allowed failed states to come into being.

Saddam was responsible for two major wars, in which hundreds of thousands died, many by chemical weapons. He killed similar numbers of his own people.

The Taliban grew out of the Russian occupation of Afghanistan and made the country into a training ground for terror. Once these regimes were removed, both countries have struggled against the same forces promoting violence and terror in the name of religion everywhere.

Not every engagement need be military; or where military, involve troops. But disengaging from this struggle won’t bring us peace.

Neither will security alone. We resisted revolutionary communism by being resolute on security; but we defeated it by a better idea: Freedom. We can do the same with this.

The better idea is a modern view of religion and its place in society and politics. There has to be respect and equality between people of different faiths. Religion must have a voice in the political system but not govern it.

We have to start with how to educate children about faith, here and abroad. That is why I started a foundation whose specific purpose is to educate children of different faiths across the world to learn about each other and live with each other.

We are now in 20 countries and the programmes work. But it is a drop in the ocean compared with the flood of intolerance taught to so many. Now, more than ever, we have to be strong and we have to be strategic.


“At the extreme end of the spectrum are terrorists, but the world view goes deeper and wider than it is comfortable for us to admit. So by and large we don’t admit it,” Mr. Blair said. “The seeds of future fanaticism and terror, possibly even major conflict, are being sown. We have to help sow seeds of reconciliation and peace.”

I think he's ⅔ right:

     1. We do not admit that radical fundamentalism is wide and deep in mainstream Islam; and

     2. “The seeds of future fanaticism and terror, possibly even major conflict, are being sown" right now; but

     3. Helping to sow the seeds of reconciliation and peace is a waste of effort. The desperately needed - for its very survival - of Islam must and can come only from within.

Islam needs a reformation - one which must separate a perfectly 'normal' religion from a weak, backwards, medieval Arab/Persian culture that is unacceptable in 21st century civilization. So it isn't, really, the Islamic reformation that's really important, it is the (highly probable) Arab/Persian enlightenment that is necessary.

What we, the US led West, should do is isolate most of the Islamic Crescent - not Malaysia and Indonesia: weaken trade and investment; stop immigration; stop admitting Arab and Iranian students to our universities and so on. This isolation is intended to help create the kinds of internal tensions that are likely to foment rebellions, revolutions, civil wars and a reformation.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: E.R. Campbell on June 02, 2013, 15:21:04
On a somewhat related, let's shoot the messenger, topic; here is an interesting article that is reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from The Telegraph:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/10092939/Marine-Le-Pen-loses-immunity-over-comparing-Islamic-prayers-to-Nazi-occupation.html
My emphasis aded

Quote
Marine Le Pen 'loses immunity' over comparing Islamic prayers to Nazi occupation
Marine Le Pen, the leader of the French far-Right leader faces charges for comparing Islamic prayers to Nazi occupation following a secret European parliamentary committee vote, according to reports.

By Barney Henderson

01 Jun 2013

Mrs Le Pen, leader of the National Front, told a rally in 2010 that the places in France where Muslims worshipped in the streets were "occupied territory".

"For those who want to talk a lot about World War Two, if it's about occupation, then we could also talk about it (Muslim prayers in the streets), because that is occupation of territory," she said at a gathering in Lyon.

In December 2012, French authorities asked the European Parliament to lift Mrs Le Pen's immunity as a European Parliament member (MEP) so she could be prosecuted.

The BBC reports that a secret vote, held earlier this week, voted "overwhelmingly" to remove Mrs Le Pen's immunity.

The vote would need to be ratified formally in parliament, but the BBC states that this would likely be a formality. There was no comment from Mrs Le Pen.

Mrs Le Pen took over the National Front from her father, party founder Jean-Marie Le Pen, who has several convictions for racism and anti-Semitism.

She won 18 per cent of the vote in the first round of France's presidential election in April 2012 – the party's highest ever score.

There are an estimated six million Muslims in France. Following protests from the far-Right, praying in the streets was banned in Paris in 2011.


I think Mlle Le Pen is, to be charitable, hyperbolic; but to prosecute her for this tells me that the government of France, and the French ruling class (all graduates of the same handful of grandes écoles that have been producing pampered dimwits since 1794) is irredeemably corrupt and the whole country should have been left to the tender mercies of the Germans in 1944.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Hamish Seggie on June 02, 2013, 19:28:35

I think Mlle Le Pen is, to be charitable, hyperbolic; but to prosecute her for this tells me that the government of France, and the French ruling class (all graduates of the same handful of grandes écoles that have been producing pampered dimwits since 1794) is irredeemably corrupt and the whole country should have been left to the tender mercies of the Germans in 1944.


Well said, Mr. Campbell

The meek shall not inherit the earth because the witless (or dimwits as you put it) will have destroyed it.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: ModlrMike on June 02, 2013, 20:38:50
If you want a glimpse of the future watch the movie Idiocracy. I'm convinced that's where we're headed.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Jarnhamar on June 02, 2013, 21:09:20
Quote
The words of terrorist sympathizers sit only on the tongues of liars and traitors.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: George Wallace on June 05, 2013, 12:01:20
Interesting.  If true, I agree with the lady.

Quote
BRAVO PM Julia Gillard- she must be PM of the world.

 Australia says NO - Second time she has done this!
 Australian Prime Minister does it again!!
 This woman should be appointed Queen of the World. Truer words have never been spoken.

 It took a lot of courage for this woman to speak, what she had to say for the world to hear. The retribution could be phenomenal, but at least she was willing to take a stand on her and Australia 's beliefs.
 The whole world needs a leader like this!

 Prime Minister Julia Gillard - Australia
 Muslims who want to live under Islamic Sharia law, were told on Wednesday to get out of Australia, as the government targeted radicals in a bid to head off potential terror attacks.
 Separately, Gillard angered some Australian Muslims on Wednesday by saying she supported spy agencies monitoring the nation's mosques.
 Quote:
 'IMMIGRANTS, NOT AUSTRALIANS, MUST ADAPT. Take It Or Leave It.
 I am tired of this nation worrying about whether we are offending some individual or their culture. Since the terrorist attacks on Bali , we have experienced a surge in patriotism by the majority of Australians. '

 'This culture has been developed over two centuries of struggles, trials and victories by millions of men and women who have sought freedom'

 'We speak mainly ENGLISH, not Spanish, Lebanese, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or any other language. Therefore, if you wish to become part of our society. Learn the language!'

 'Most Australians believe in God. This is not some Christian, right wing, political push, but a fact, because Christian men and women, on Christian principles, founded this nation, and this is clearly documented. It is certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of our schools. If God offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world as your new home, because God is part of our culture.'

 'We will accept your beliefs, and will not question why. All we ask is that you accept ours, and live in harmony and peaceful enjoyment with us.'

 'This is OUR COUNTRY, OUR LAND, and OUR LIFESTYLE, and we will allow you every opportunity to enjoy all this. But once you are done complaining, whining, and griping about Our Flag, Our Pledge, Our Christian beliefs, or Our Way of Life, I highly encourage you take advantage of one other great Australian freedom, 'THE RIGHT TO LEAVE'.'
 'If you aren't happy here then LEAVE. We didn't force you to come here. You asked to be here. So accept the country YOU accepted.

Trying to source it now.

[edit to add]  And it is a HOAX.   http://www.hoax-slayer.com/gillard-muslims-leave.shtml
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: PanaEng on June 05, 2013, 14:39:01
Interesting.  If true, I agree with the lady.

Trying to source it now.

[edit to add]  And it is a HOAX.   http://www.hoax-slayer.com/gillard-muslims-leave.shtml

That's too bad.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: jollyjacktar on June 05, 2013, 19:54:05
I'll second that for most of it.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Thucydides on June 07, 2013, 23:41:56
Mark Steyn on how PC attitudes make dealing with the issue.....difficult

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/350505/no-copbad-cop-mark-steyn

Quote
No Cop/Bad Cop
By  Mark Steyn
June 7, 2013 2:01 PM
Comments98

I was chugging along buying Jack Dunphy’s argument on the NSA business, “A Small Price To Pay,” until I got to this bit:

There are people living in the United States right now, many, many of them, who are no less committed to jihad than the Tsarnaev brothers or Nidal Hassan.

Well, how’d that happen? How did all these Tsarnaevs-in-waiting wind up living in the United States? They were let in by the government, and many of them were let in in the years since 9/11, when we were supposedly on permanent “orange alert.” The same bureaucracy that takes the terror threat so seriously that it needs the phone and Internet records of hundreds of millions of law-abiding persons would never dream of doing a little more pre-screening in its immigration system — by, say, according a graduate of a Yemeni madrassah a little more scrutiny than a Slovene or Fijian. The president has unilaterally suspended the immigration laws of the United States, and his attorney general prosecutes those states such as Arizona who remain quaintly attached to them. The ID three of the 9/11 hijackers acquired in the 7-Eleven parking lot in Falls Church, Virginia and used to board the plane that day is part of a vast ongoing subversion of American sovereignty with which many states and so-called “sanctuary cities” actively collude.

As for Major Hasan, who needs surveillance? He put “Soldier of Allah” on his business card and gave a PowerPoint presentation to his military colleagues on what he’d like to do to infidels — and nobody said a word, lest they got tied up in sensitivity-training hell for six months.

Jack will forgive me when I say this is less good cop/bad cop than no cop/bad cop. Because the formal, visible state has been neutered by political correctness, the dark, furtive shadow state has to expand massively to make, in secret, the judgment calls that can no longer be made in public. That’s not an arrangement that is likely to end well.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: George Wallace on June 13, 2013, 11:54:50
Interesting news in the UK.  Now I wonder a few things here.  What does this family talk about in the home, at the dinner table, around the couch, after a meeting in their basement?  Isn't convenient that they use our Laws when they feel it is in their best interest and disregard them when it is not.   If our Laws are not to be followed because they were written by 'men', then who do they think scribed Sharia Laws?

Link to Family face losing £200,000 home in landmark ruling after grandfather's terror training conviction (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2340243/Family-face-losing-200-000-home-landmark-ruling-grandfathers-terror-conviction.html)

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2340243/Family-face-losing-200-000-home-landmark-ruling-grandfathers-terror-conviction.html#ixzz2W6kRbMm7
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook


Quote
The family of a former Taliban fighter convicted of attempting to recruit two undercover police officers for jihad in Afghanistan face losing their £200,000 home under anti-terrorism laws.

Munir Farooqi, 56, was given four life sentences in September 2011 for running a 'recruitment centre' for home-grown extremists to go to Afghanistan to kill British troops.

His family have now spoken of how it is 'sickening' that they face being made homeless if Farooqi loses his High Court appeal next month against his conviction.

The house in Longsight, Manchester, is home to three generations of the Farooqi family, including two children, according to The Independent.

The Crown Prosecution Service's Proceeds of Crime Unit served the family with a notice at the end of Farooqi's trial for soliciting to murder and disseminating terrorist literature.


The notice informed the Farooqis that they intended to seize the house under Section 23a of the Terrorism Act. But the judge in the case ordered it could not go ahead until Farooqi's appeal against the terror conviction had been heard.

The family's supporters who oppose the seizure say they are being punished even though they have done nothing wrong.

Munir Farooqi's son Harris, 29, a market trader who was cleared of terror charges at the 2011 trial, said eight people lived at the home, owned by his sister and mother.

He told The Independent: 'How can they demonise a whole family? It is sickening.

'You have to be insane deliberately to make a family go through such torture and to claim they are all terrorists.'

The property could be seized under anti-terrorism laws because the court found attempts took place there to radicalise men and persuade them to take part in jihad.

The family told the paper they are confident their father, who was ordered to serve a minimum of nine years, will win his appeal and that the undercover police investigation was unlawful.

The family's solicitor Simon Pook said the act had been misinterpreted. He said it could be in breach of the European Convention of Human Rights if it created case law. Nearly 20,000 people have signed a petition opposing the seizure of the house.


During his trial, Manchester Crown Court heard how Farooqi was at the centre of a plot to radicalise and persuade vulnerable young men to 'fight, kill and die'.


Over a two year period Farooqi - who boasted of being a jihadist and was detained in Afghanistan in 2001- tried to persuade people visiting his stall to travel to training camps in Afghanistan.


He was arrested in November 2009 after two white undercover policemen infiltrated the recruiting school and underwent radicalisation ceremonies in the basement of his terraced home.


During the undercover investigation one of the detectives taped Farooqi boasting: ‘If we die, we win. You have Allah on your side, how can we lose?


‘You know Jihad is not about you giving your life away. If we’re going to go there you make sure you take at least 40 or 50 people with us so we’ve done something.’


In September 2011 Farooqi was convicted of three charges of soliciting murder, preparing for acts of terrorism and distributing terrorist publications after a four month trial. He was jailed for a minimum of nine years.

A CPS spokesman said: 'The Crown Prosecution Service is making an application under S23a of the Terrorism Act 2000 for the forfeiture of Munir Farooqi’s home... on the basis that it has been used for the purposes of terrorism.


'The power to forfeit residential premises in these circumstances is a new power under the Counter Terrorism Act 2008, and before any decision is made, the forfeiture application is considered by the court and the family will be given an opportunity to be heard.


'The court will consider the effect of any order on the family members.'


Quote

Under Clause 23a of the Terrorism Act 2000 a convicted terrorist can have their assets seized by the state under a forfeiture order.

The Farooqi family were informed of the Crown Prosecution Service's Proceeds of Crime Unit's intention to seize the house at the end of Munir Farooqi's trial.

The courts found Farooqi attempted to radicalise men and recruit them for jihad at the house.

But the judge ordered the seizure proceedings to take place after the outcome of Farooqi's appeal.

His outraged family say they are entitled to a private and family life and will use the Human Rights Act to fight the move.

Their solicitor Simon Pook said the act had been misinterpreted and would be in breach of the European Convention of Human Rights if it created case law.

The CPS has said the power to forfeit residential premises in these circumstances is a new power under the Counter Terrorism Act 2008.

Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: E.R. Campbell on July 11, 2013, 14:16:10
According to a report (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/news-video/video-bc-premier-to-alleged-bomb-plotters-you-will-not-succeed/article12939890/#dashboard/follows/) in the Globe and Mail, BC Premier Christy Clark says, to be woud-be BC bombers, "You will not succeed," but, of course, they will succeed, in one way or another, eventually. Perhaps they will not, as Premier Clark suggests, succeed in tearing down our values but they will manage to knock down some bridges or buildings. We ~ the security services ~ are, rather like the Israelis: the Isrealis have to win every war, every battle, while the Arabs just have to get lucky once. Sooner or later the home grown, self radicalized terrorists will "get lucky" and we will be horrified.

The trick, the path to victory, for us, is to be "horrified" without ever, being "terrorized." Our sense of "horror" and our sense of "honour" must lead us towards a steely resolve to defend and preserve our values, our institutions, our culture against all comers. We must know that our culture is worthy, even better than others. That doesn't mean we should be intolerant but it does mean that we should remember both the definition of tolerance (the ability or willingness to accept the existence of opinions or behaviour that one dislikes or with which one disagrees) and its origin (late Middle English (denoting the action of bearing hardship, or the ability to bear pain and hardship): via Old French from Latin tolerantia, from tolerare). Tolerating less "worthy" cultures ~ while we help to change/reform them ~ may, indeed, involve some hardship but the end effect, helping others to adapt their cultures so that they no longer need to be tolerated, is worth it.


And here, in a report which is reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the Los Angeles Times is a report on a cultural value that we must find intolerable, slavery:

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-saudi-princess-20130711,0,4263322.story
Quote
Saudi princess charged in O.C. human trafficking case
Saudi princess Meshael Alayban is accused of forcing a Kenyan woman to work as a domestic servant in Irvine. She allegedly made the woman work 16 hours a day, seven days a week, for $220 a month.

By Richard Winton

July 10, 2013

A woman whom Orange County authorities described as a Saudi royal princess was charged Wednesday with human trafficking for allegedly forcing a Kenyan woman to work as a domestic servant.

Meshael Alayban, 42, was taken into custody early Wednesday by police at her Irvine home in a gated community. Orange County prosecutors allege that Alayban forced the woman to work 16 hours a day, seven days a week, for only $220 a month. Authorities say she was unable to flee because Alayban kept the woman's passport and documents.

Authorities said the woman left the home on Tuesday. She boarded a bus and eventually contacted police.

Dist. Atty. Tony Rackauckas on Wednesday charged Alayban with one felony count of human trafficking.

"The law of our nation and California does not tolerate people who deprive or violate the liberty of another and obtain forced labor or services," Rackauckas said. "If any person is being enslaved, he or she should contact law enforcement."

In addition to the Kenyan woman, police said officers found four other workers being held under similar circumstances at Alayban's home. Detectives continue to investigate, but no charges have yet been filed in those cases.

Prosecutors requested that Alayban be held without bail because she was a flight risk. But a judge ordered she be held in lieu of $5 million. He also ordered her to surrender her passport, not to travel outside Orange County and to wear a monitor if released.

Orange County prosecutors identified Alayban as one of the wives of Saudi Prince Abdulrahman bin Nasser bin Abdulaziz al Saud. She could not be reached for comment, but in a statement to the Los Angeles Times, her attorney, Paul S. Meyer, said there was no physical abuse, no physical restraint and that the complaints were about hours worked and wages paid.

"We intend to fully investigate this matter, and expect that the truth will resolve it," he said.

The servant, whose identity was not released by authorities, began working for the family in Saudi Arabia to help cover her young daughter's medical care, officials said. The woman was contacted through an agency in Kenya to work for Alayban's family in Saudi Arabia in March 2012. She was meant to work for two years and be paid $1,600 a month. She was told she'd work eight hours a day, five days a week and that her pay would rise after three months, authorities said.

Irvine police said that when the woman arrived in Saudi Arabia, Alayban took her passport. She accompanied Alayban and her family when they came to Irvine in May. Police said the servant came with four other women from the Philippines working under similar contracts.

She told detectives she was required to work excessive hours and paid only a fraction of the agreed-upon salary. When the woman complained about the working conditions and asked for her passport back so she could leave, Alayban refused to give it to her, police said.

The servant told authorities she was working for various Alayban family members living in four luxury apartments in a development off Jamboree Road, police said. She claimed she was not allowed to leave the complex without a member of the family present.

"We are gratified to have been able to help this victim find her freedom," Irvine Police Chief David L. Maggard Jr. said.

The servant finally left the complex Tuesday, carrying a suitcase and a U.S. State Department pamphlet on human trafficking, officials said. The pamphlet had been given to her at a U.S. Embassy in Saudi Arabia, where she was issued a travel visa, Maggard said.

A woman on the bus noticed she was upset and began talking to her. That woman eventually helped her contact police.

When police arrived at Alayban's home, they found the four other women. Police said they told detectives their travel documents had also been taken by Alayban.

Detectives were trying to retrieve the documents from a safe deposit box.

richard.winton@latimes.com


I am almost certain that the US State Department will intervene, at the behest of the House of Saud to subvert justice in America.

Slavery remains a "taken for granted" issue in Islam and many Arabs think it is normal that e.g. Africans and Philippines people should be, de facto enslaved. Some would use the term indentured but we would not have recognized those terms of indenture since the early 19th century.

- mod edited to fix code formatting -
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: S.M.A. on July 11, 2013, 19:46:01
The man who once wanted to be "America's mayor" weighs in on walking the precipice of too much political correctness:

National Post link (http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/07/11/culture-of-political-correctness-on-islamist-terrorist-threat-blunted-effort-to-stop-home-grown-attacks-rudi-giuliani-says/)

Quote

Culture of ‘political correctness’ on Islamist terrorist threat blunted effort to stop home-grown attacks, Rudi Giuliani says

Rudy Giuliani, the mayor of New York at the time of the September 11 attacks, has questioned whether a culture of “political correctness” towards the Islamist terrorist threat had blunted efforts to stop home-grown attacks such as the Boston marathon bombings.

Speaking hours before Dzhokhar Tsarnaev — the alleged surviving Boston bomber — was arraigned in court, Mr. Giuliani took aim at the Obama administration for creating a climate that had made U.S. security agencies over-cautious about pursing potential Islamist threats.

“You can’t fight an enemy you don’t acknowledge,” Mr. Giuliani told the House homeland security committee inquiry into the intelligence failures that led to the Boston bombs.

“In order to confront this threat effectively, we have to purge ourselves of the practice of political correctness when it goes so far that it interferes with our rational and intellectually honest analysis of the identifying characteristics that help us to discover these killers in advance.”


In the days immediately following the Boston attacks, President Barack Obama was attacked by the Right for his reluctance to identify the bombings as the work of Islamist terrorists — a sign, they said, of the president’s excessive caution on the issue.

Mr. Giuliani said he believed that the FBI’s failure to track the older Tsarnaev brother, Tamerlan, despite his return to his native Dagestan, a known centre of jihadism, might have been caused by over-caution on civil liberty and religious issues.

“The fear of incorrectly identifying [Tamerlan] Tsarnaev as a suspected Muslim extremist might have played a role in not taking all the steps that seemed prudent given his suspicious behaviour,”
 he said, “He obviously wasn’t going back to listen to the Moscow symphony.”

(...)
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: S.M.A. on August 29, 2013, 09:48:44
I considered posting this in the "dumbest thing you've heard today" thread (http://forums.navy.ca/forums/index.php/topic,76543.msg1253164.html#new) instead...

Yet another instance of barbarism of such backward clerics as pointed out in other threads.

Sun News link (http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/sunnews/canada/archives/2013/08/20130828-084745.html)

Quote
Stoning is good for your soul, says Canadian cleric

TORONTO — Death to sinners. That is the religious message brought to you by YouTube. Homosexuals and adulterers, you’d better start running because it’s directed at you.

Don’t believe me? Well, plenty of people watched Wednesday as Sheikh Faisal Hamid Abdur-Razak put his death by stoning show on the digital high road courtesy of the Internet.

A YouTube video featuring an insightful look at the ideas of the Brampton, Ont., preacher who stated that “sinners,” as defined by his own interpretation of Islamic law, can benefit from a jolly good stoning was running all day until it was belatedly taken down.

The sheikh explained that a Muslim who is sentenced to death by stoning under Sharia law actually benefits from this gruesome punishment as her soul is being purified even as the stones rain down on her sinful head.

It would possibly be funny if it were in a Monty Python movie. Almost, but not quite. There is no joke to be had in a medieval form of punishment like stoning. Nor should it be condoned.

Alas, it might be more widely spread than most Canadians would believe.

In 2010 the Pew Research Centre in Washington published the results of an extensive poll of Middle East countries and tapped into their views of modern life.

According to the results, at least three-quarters of Muslims in Egypt and Pakistan say they would favour making each of the following the law in their countries: stoning people who commit adultery, whippings and cutting off of hands for crimes like theft and robbery and the death penalty for those who leave the Muslim religion.

Majorities of Muslims in Jordan and Nigeria also favor these harsh punishments. Thankfully none will be proscribed in Canada because we are a free, open and tolerant society that will never become a theocracy where common law is subjugated to religious dogma.


Being free, open and tolerant also means that people such as Sheikh Faisal Hamid Abdur-Razak can take advantage of free speech to spread their own version of moral purification.

This from a man who serves as both president of the Islamic Forum of Canada and vice-president of the Islamic Council of Imams of Canada. Attempts were made to contact the sheikh for comment for this article but they were unsuccessful.

Still, that doesn’t mean we have to withhold our own opinion.

We can surely ask just why a clearly inflammatory piece of speech like that delivered by the sheikh is hosted on the popular video-sharing site. It’s got company, too.

It doesn’t take long to find plenty of disgusting material on YouTube that makes it less of a social site than a sewer of hate and bloody gore, most of it carried out in the sacred name of religion.

There are endless images of gruesome hangings, stonings, executions, assaults, assassinations, shootings and so-called honour killings.

It says a lot about the warped values of YouTube that it will vigorously protect the copyright of Saturday Night Live when an illegal video of a skit from the show is posted but let vivid examples of man’s inhumanity to man be run in all its glory.

A quick YouTube search reveals an alarming number of terrorist training videos from al-Qaida side by side with executions by Al-Shabaab and hate-filled sermons from across the globe.

This is despite YouTube’s insufferably smug claims that it has “community guidelines” that prohibit “dangerous or illegal activities such as bomb-making, hate speech and incitement to commit violent acts” and only accepts “religious” films.

If you believe that, then you’ll also believe that a video snuff movie features people sneezing.


Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: George Wallace on August 29, 2013, 09:59:27
"Non-violence" is an oxymoron to this religion.  They have so many "excuses" to be violent. 
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: E.R. Campbell on August 29, 2013, 10:43:25
"Non-violence" is an oxymoron to this religion.  They have so many "excuses" to be violent.


It is not a religious issues, it is cultural. Until we understand that we are going to blunder about making strategic blunders because we have failed to grasp the most basic, simple problem.

Islam needs a reformation, but the Christian reformation (1400 (John Huss) to 1700 (Treaty of London)) was, largely, cultural rather than purely religious. Issues like language - the bible in the venacular - bother some Asian Muslims today and some are agitating against the notion that the Qur'an can only be "understood" in Arabic. The habit of relying upon Arab or Persian clerics who "import" their own cultural values and try to impose them in e.g. Malays or Indonesians or Canadians is also a cause of concern amongst many Muslims. So the stirrings of a reformation are already apparent.

But an Islamic reformation is only one step; many Muslim regions (Africa, the Near and Middle East, and West Asia) need cultural enlightenments such as we, in the West, had from about 1650 until about 1800 (overlapping the reformation) and which the Chinese had, arguably, 1,500 years earlier.

The bits of Islam which we find are offensive to all civilized peoples are the same as the bits of Judaism and Christianity that were wrung out of the fabric of (the mainstreams of) both those creeds over the past centuries. They can be wrung out of Islam, too ... by Muslims, just as Christians and Jews reformed themselves.

Now, clearly and without reservation, Sheikh Faisal Hamid Abdur-Razak does not belong in Canada. His views and his theology are barbaric and unacceptable to any Canadian, of any religion. He cannot be deported fast enough. And we, as a country, must not allow Muslims mosques to import people like him. They, Canadian Muslims, must educate and train their own, Canadian, imans. We, Canadians of any and all sorts, neither want nor should we accept barbarians, no matter what disguises they may adopt. But, sadly, Sheikh Faisal Hamid Abdur-Razak is not a whole lot different than some radical Christian preachers, and they're "home grown."
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: myself.only on August 30, 2013, 14:53:11

It is not a religious issues, it is cultural. Until we understand that we are going to blunder about making strategic blunders because we have failed to grasp the most basic, simple problem.

Islam needs a reformation, but the Christian reformation (1400 (John Huss) to 1700 (Treaty of London)) was, largely, cultural rather than purely religious. Issues like language - the bible in the venacular - bother some Asian Muslims today and some are agitating against the notion that the Qur'an can only be "understood" in Arabic. The habit of relying upon Arab or Persian clerics who "import" their own cultural values and try to impose them in e.g. Malays or Indonesians or Canadians is also a cause of concern amongst many Muslims. So the stirrings of a reformation are already apparent.

But an Islamic reformation is only one step; many Muslim regions (Africa, the Near and Middle East, and West Asia) need cultural enlightenments such as we, in the West, had from about 1650 until about 1800 (overlapping the reformation) and which the Chinese had, arguably, 1,500 years earlier.

The bits of Islam which we find are offensive to all civilized peoples are the same as the bits of Judaism and Christianity that were wrung out of the fabric of (the mainstreams of) both those creeds over the past centuries. They can be wrung out of Islam, too ... by Muslims, just as Christians and Jews reformed themselves.

Now, clearly and without reservation, Sheikh Faisal Hamid Abdur-Razak does not belong in Canada. His views and his theology are barbaric and unacceptable to any Canadian, of any religion. He cannot be deported fast enough. And we, as a country, must not allow Muslims mosques to import people like him. They, Canadian Muslims, must educate and train their own, Canadian, imans. We, Canadians of any and all sorts, neither want nor should we accept barbarians, no matter what disguises they may adopt. But, sadly, Sheikh Faisal Hamid Abdur-Razak is not a whole lot different than some radical Christian preachers, and they're "home grown."

Very well said, sir.

Further to your post, IMHO the potential for reformation is best supported when non-Muslim countries such as Canada promote the inclusiveness of Muslims in general. Then the adoption of our culture can become a viable alternative without compromising religious identity.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: George Wallace on August 30, 2013, 15:29:52
Further to your post, IMHO the potential for reformation is best supported when non-Muslim countries such as Canada promote the inclusiveness of Muslims in general. Then the adoption of our culture can become a viable alternative without compromising religious identity.

Nice plan.  Like Communism, it looks good on paper.  Unfortunately, like Communism, it won't work.  So many of them have no intention of adopting our culture.  Therein lies the flaws of such logic.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: myself.only on August 30, 2013, 17:06:00
Nice plan.  Like Communism, it looks good on paper.  Unfortunately, like Communism, it won't work.  So many of them have no intention of adopting our culture.  Therein lies the flaws of such logic.

Well, I don't know if the opposite viewpoint - promoting that one cannot be both a good Canadian and a good Muslim - even has the advantage of looking good on paper.
 :)



Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: GnyHwy on August 31, 2013, 06:33:01
There is probably a significant amount of Muslims that adapt well to Canadian culture; they are what is called "whitewashed".

Maybe we can get them to take a survey to determine how susceptible they are.

Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: E.R. Campbell on September 10, 2013, 11:49:41
This, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the Daily Mail, is foreign news but I suspect it applies around the world. But please see my comments at the end:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2416586/Gangs-Asian-men-grooming-MUSLIM-girls-plying-drink-drugs.html
Quote
(https://Air-Force.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.dailymail.co.uk%2Fi%2Fsitelogos%2Flogo_mol.gif&hash=2ca023c8d50d538d5481da5af5dcdbcd)
Gangs of Asian men are grooming underage MUSLIM girls too, plying them with drink and drugs while promising marriage
     Older men target girls within their own Asian and Muslim communities
     Gangs rely on sense of shame and honour to ensure their victims' silence
     Victims to frightened to speak about because they fear not being believed
     Youngsters raped, severely beaten and burnt with cigarettes


By ANNA EDWARDS

PUBLISHED: 10 September 2013

Gangs of Asian men who groom and sexually exploit children have been targeting Muslims within their own communities as well as white girls, a damning report has revealed.

The study shows that offenders will target vulnerable youngsters of the same ethnicity - but rely on the Asian and Muslim culture of honour and shame to mask their vile crimes.

The Muslim Women's Network UK report focuses on Mulsim and Asian abused children, who they say have been sexually exploited but overlooked by authorities because they are too frightened to speak out.

The worrying study follows a series of high profile cases about gangs of Asian men who have targeted white girls.

But the report exposes how in the majority of cases offenders will groom members of their own community, feeding them drink and drugs and silencing them with promises of marriage to conceal the abuse.

It also reveals that victims were already vulnerable to being sexually exploited by gangs, as they had a limited knowledge of sex, suffered from disabilities, or were seeking to escape a harsh background.

The MWNUK claims there has been a 'deafening silence' surrounding this particular group of victims, pointing to the Asian and Muslim culture of honour and shame, which stops many victims speaking out about sexual abuse and seeking help.

They also say that the culture of men holding the authority and women must be respectable means that the abused females will often stay silent about their experiences, for fear of not being believed by their community.

The report found that victims often received little support when abuse was discovered.

It said: 'When the family became aware of any abuse they re-victimised them, which meant not believing them, blaming them, forcing them into a marriage, forcing them to leave the family home and in one case forcing the victim to have hymen repair surgery prior to a forced marriage.

Consequently the report claims that this vulnerable portion of society are often overlooked by statutory services and not identified as victims as they have not spoken up either to authorities or their own communities, who could have helped them.

The report identified how groups would target youngsters, typically using an older peer of the victim to play the role of 'older boyfriend'.

The targeted girl would be presented with gifts by the 'boyfriend', given rides in expensive cars and promised love and marriage, before being introduced to older men and the campaign of abuse would begin.

Sometimes she would be plied with drink and drugs, so she would not know the extent of her abuse or even how many men had violated her.

The shocking report found the gangs would rape the victims, beat them, burn them with cigarettes and film them being exploited on webcam.

Blackmail was a key way of controlling victims and ensuring their silence, the study discovered, as gangs threatened their victims with dishonour and shame should they speak up.

Honorary president and MWNUK's co-founding member Baroness Haleh Afshar OBE said: 'These case studies indicate that, contrary to media studies that accuse Muslim men of grooming non-Muslim girls, the majority of the abusers were from the same ethnic /faith background as the victims and perpetrators targeted girls that were most vulnerable and accessible to them.

'Like their non-Muslim counterparts some of the victims were silenced by fear of violence against them or their family, others had an emotional attachment to their attackers and others feared that they would not be believed by their own family and others.

'In addition, the attackers relied on the deep sense of honour and shame in their family and community to silence and control their victims.'

The report found that older men who targeted their own relatives would often intimidate their terrified youngsters into silence and, if necessary, use violence or arrange a forced marriage to mask their abuse.

The analysis collected 35 cases of abuse over five months, and had to speak to those who knew the victims and may have helped them, as victims were reluctant to speak of the abuse personally.

Key findings found that: 'Asian and Muslim female victims are also vulnerable to grooming and sexual exploitation and are also being targeted and sexually exploited and include children, young persons (16 to 18 years) and adults.

'Asian and Muslim female victims are most vulnerable to offenders from their own communities as the overwhelming majority of the offenders were from the same background as the victims.

'Asian and Muslim children, young persons and adults have specific vulnerabilities associated with their culture which are exploited and also constitute a barrier to disclosure and reporting.'

Baroness Sayeeda Warsi, Senior Minister of State at the Foreign and Commonwealth Office and Minister for Faith and Communities, said: 'The case studies are finally shining much needed spotlight on a problem that has largely, and tragically, gone unnoticed in the past.

'The cases of Asian and Muslim female victims make for hard reading, but this report, and other research like it, is necessary if we are to take the action needed to stamp out these abhorrent crimes.'

Nazir Afazl OBE, the Chief Crown Prosecutor of the Crown Prosecution Service, said: 'We know that women and victims from minorities are even more reluctant to report these crimes, in part because of honour and shame issues.

'It is the availability of victims coupled with their vulnerability that leads to them being targeted by these predators.'

He urged communities and individuals to speak out about abuse if they knew it was happening.

The report comes after a series of high-profile child sex gang cases - including five men who were jailed for life in June for 'crimes of the utmost gravity' in Oxford.

Child sex gangs have also been caught in Rochdale, Greater Manchester, Cambridgeshire and Rotherham, South Yorkshire.

 

There is nothing Muslim about this, nothing Asian either, it is the sad fate of all immigrant and minority communities, everywhere; it was the same here, in Canada, 150 years ago and it is the same here now amongst many "communities" today.

But it, de faco slavery, is uncivilized and it ought to be grounds for deportation.

Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: milnews.ca on September 10, 2013, 12:16:42
There is probably a significant amount of Muslims that adapt well to Canadian culture; they are what is called "whitewashed".

Maybe we can get them to take a survey to determine how susceptible they are.
<pedant>
FYI, Apu is Hindu, not Muslim.
</pedant>
 ;D
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: S.M.A. on September 12, 2013, 20:08:48
Fallout or not, he was still on the FBI's most-wanted list...

Good riddens.

National Post link (http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/09/12/jihadi-rapper-and-former-toronto-pizza-deliveryman-omar-hammami-killed-in-somalia-ambush-after-falling-out-with-al-shabaab/)

Quote
Jihadi rapper and former Toronto pizza deliveryman Omar Hammami killed in Somalia ambush after falling out with al-Shabaab, militants say

MOGADISHU, Somalia — A rapping jihadi from Alabama who ascended the ranks of Somalia’s al-Qaeda-linked militant group and was on the FBI’s Most Wanted list with a US$5-million reward for his capture  was killed Thursday in an ambush ordered by the militant group’s leader, militants said.

Omar Hammami, a native of Daphne, Alabama and former Toronto pizza deliveryman who was known as Abu Mansoor Al-Amriki, or “the American,” died in southern Somalia following several months on the run after a falling-out with al-Shabaab’s top leader, the militants said.

Reports of Hammami’s death crop up every few months in Somalia, only for him to resurface a short while later. But a U.S. terrorism expert who closely follows the inner workings of al-Shabaab says he thinks that the current reports of the death are accurate.


“I think it’s very likely true based on the sources I am seeing,” said J.M. Berger, who runs the website Intelwire.com.

Militants did not immediately present proof of Hammami’s death.

A member of al-Shabaab who gave his name as Sheik Abu Mohammed told The Associated Press that Hammami was killed in an ambush in Somalia’s southern Bay region. Some of Mohammed’s associates carried out the killing, he said.

Along with Adam Gadahn in Pakistan — a former Osama bin Laden spokesman — Hammami is one of the two most notorious Americans in jihad groups. He grew up in Daphne, a community of 20,000 outside Mobile, the son of a Christian mother and a Syrian-born Muslim father.

His YouTube videos that featured him rapping and his presence on Twitter made him one of the most recognizable and studied U.S. foreign fighters. The U.S. put Hammami on its Most Wanted terrorist list in March and offered a US$5-million reward for information leading to his capture.

U.S. prosecutors had charged Hammami with providing material support to terrorists.

]The Alabama-born 28-year-old left Toronto in 2005 and made his way through Cairo to join the Somali jihad. “We are all Osama,” he declared in one of his many self-aggrandizing online videos.


But his holy war now appears to be over. He fought alongside al-Shabaab for years until they had a falling out amid signs of increasing tension between Somali and foreign fighters in the group. He first expressed fear for his life in a web video in March 2012 that publicized his rift with al-Shabaab.

The first serious attempt on his life was made in April.

“Just been shot in neck by shabab assassin. not critical yet,” Hammami tweeted after the April attack. He later wrote on Twitter that the leader of al-Shabaab was sending in forces from multiple directions. “we are few but we might get back up. abu zubayr has gone mad. he’s starting a civil war,” Hammami posted.

Hammami accused al-Shabaab’s leaders of living extravagant lifestyles with the taxes fighters collect from Somali residents. Another Hammami grievance is that the Somali militant leaders sideline foreign militants inside al-Shabaab and are concerned only about fighting in Somalia, not globally.

The leader of al-Shabaab, Mukhtar Abu Zubeyr, is also known as Godane.

Berger said that Hammami has been “a thorn in the side of al-Shabaab” for more than two years and “one of the few surviving dissenters after Godane’s bloody purge over the summer.”

Militants in Somalia have long hosted foreign fighters in the country. U.S. officials say that al-Shabaab, which has been around since about 2006, counts several hundred foreign fighters among its ranks, including several dozen Somali-Americans from Minnesota.

Al-Shabaab and al-Qaeda announced formal merger in February 2012, but the Somali militant group maintained a reputation as being hostile to foreign fighters.

“Hammami brought a lot of unwelcome outside scrutiny on Shabaab from the international jihadist community. His story will likely be a case study on what can go wrong when Westerners join jihadist movements,” Berger said.

———

Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: X_para76 on September 13, 2013, 00:15:57
What I find most disturbing is when people try to defend Islam by stating that the extremists only represent a small minority of the religion and that we shouldn't judge them all based on the actions or views of a few. However, I can't recall very many occasions where the moderates have come out and publicly criticized  or spoke out against the extremists. I've heard their apathy compared to that of the average German during the Second World War, where the majority of Germans weren't hardcore Nazi's but because of their omission of action allowed a small minority to commit mass murder.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Journeyman on September 13, 2013, 00:56:58
What I find most disturbing is when people try to defend Islam.....
Islam requires defending?  It's somehow indefensible?    ::)
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: myself.only on September 13, 2013, 11:00:00
FWIW, my impression from the (English translation of) the Koran was surprise at what was IMHO a very defensive tone.
Seemed an awful lot of preparing the faithful for confrontation and discrimination, a lot of "If the unbeliever does X...."
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Colin P on September 13, 2013, 18:28:54
What I find most disturbing is when people try to defend Islam by stating that the extremists only represent a small minority of the religion and that we shouldn't judge them all based on the actions or views of a few. However, I can't recall very many occasions where the moderates have come out and publicly criticized  or spoke out against the extremists. I've heard their apathy compared to that of the average German during the Second World War, where the majority of Germans weren't hardcore Nazi's but because of their omission of action allowed a small minority to commit mass murder.

It is a small number that do intimidate the masses, through violent and non-violent means. Islam is about submission and they play that card well. I have met many Muslims that will repeat what they are being told, despite seeing with their own eyes something different. It's not worth sticking your neck out, because these nutbars are real nutbars and they are serious. The one saving grace in all this is everytime these nutbars get into power, they can't restrain themselves and finally they push the masses to far.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: X_para76 on September 13, 2013, 20:05:30
Oh I have no doubt that moderate Muslims are as wary of the crazy Muslims as I am.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: milnews.ca on September 13, 2013, 22:08:30
Some may be back to walking among us after second thoughts?
Quote
"In 2009, six zealous young Somali-Canadians abandoned their studies and families in Toronto to join Al-Shabab, an armed extremist group fighting a losing battle to impose its harsh version of Islamic law on Somalia.

Four years later, four of them are dead and on Thursday another former Toronto resident, Omar Hammami, was reported killed. But according to a Toronto imam, the remaining two have now left Al-Shabab after seeing the error of their ways.

“They realized what they were doing was wrong,” said Sheikh Said Rageah, who spoke recently to one of the Canadians, both now settled in Hargeysa, capital of the northern breakaway region of Somaliland. “They’re not into that anymore.”

The imam said they had married and were working, one as an English teacher. “They got their lives together. I don’t think they plan to come back [to Canada] but they definitely went back to university and they work so they have different plans. One of them has, I think, two kids.” ....
National Post, 12 Sept 13 (http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/09/12/al-shabab/)
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: S.M.A. on September 25, 2013, 12:15:36
 :o

Quote

Somali terror group has 20 American members, prone to strike outside Somalia

The Somali terror group that stormed a Kenyan mall, killing more than 60 people, has a larger U.S. contingent than any other al Qaeda offshoot, said U.S. officials, and is now more prone to mount deadly attacks on targets outside Somalia.

Al Shabaab's attacks on foreign targets include an attempt to kill a U.S. congressman visiting Mogadishu in 2009. Rep. Donald Payne, D-N.J., was uninjured in the mortar attack.

Via Twitter, al Shabaab has claimed that six of the jihadis holding hostages at Nairobi’s Westgate mall are Americans, and provided names for what it said were individuals from Minneapolis, Kansas City, Maine, Illinois and Arizona.


More at...

NBC News (http://investigations.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/09/23/20660841-somali-terror-group-has-20-american-members-prone-to-strike-outside-somalia?lite)
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Lightguns on September 25, 2013, 12:17:39
:o

More at...

NBC News (http://investigations.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/09/23/20660841-somali-terror-group-has-20-american-members-prone-to-strike-outside-somalia?lite)

When one wants to kill a high value target with precision, one should always turn to mortars!
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Hamish Seggie on September 25, 2013, 12:25:35
How many do we have here I wonder.

Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: ModlrMike on September 25, 2013, 13:16:55
How many do we have here I wonder.

More than we know, less than we think.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Hamish Seggie on September 25, 2013, 13:38:12
More than we know, less than we think.
If .01 % of the population of Canada had terrorist leanings we are looking at about 3300 people.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: dapaterson on September 25, 2013, 13:45:12
Well, we should be on the lookout for diehard believers who continue regardless of whether their faith has any basis or not.

(https://Air-Force.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fblog.mapleleafs.com.s110560.gridserver.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2013%2F04%2Ffans488ulmermay16.jpg&hash=dee66a5b68307d9d1518c1f8192e5aca)
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Journeyman on September 25, 2013, 13:47:45
If .01 % of the population of Canada had terrorist leanings we are looking at about 3300 people.
I believe that figure is classified, as is the Intelligence methodology you used (guess, then try to make it look logical when briefing)

 ;)
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: George Wallace on October 16, 2013, 23:10:52
Believe this belongs here, more than anywhere else:

(Link in Title)

Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.
Quote
Whole truth? Hardly: Media Party spins quite a tale about its two latest heroes (http://www.torontosun.com/2013/09/30/whole-truth-hardly-media-party-spins-quite-a-tale-about-its-two-latest-heroes)

By Ezra Levant,QMI Agency
First posted:  Monday, September 30, 2013 06:36 PM EDT  | Updated:  Monday, September 30, 2013 06:41 PM EDT

The Media Party has two new heroes: Tarek Loubani and John Greyson.

A search of the CBC’s website shows more than 5,000 stories on the two men. By contrast, lowly Nelson Mandela only has 2,000 mentions.

So, who are these saints? The Media Party says Loubani is a doctor and Greyson is a filmmaker, and they’re being held in an Egyptian jail without charges. That’s part of the story. Here’s the rest:

Loubani is, in fact, a doctor from London, Ont. He calls himself a Palestinian refugee, though he came to Canada from Kuwait, where he was born. But it’s politically sexier to say you’re Palestinian.

Loubani is an extreme activist. When a Canadian cabinet minister was announcing a grant to help people with disabilities, Loubani stormed into the press conference, disrupting it, shouting about how he’s a refugee from Palestine. Even though he’s been in Canada since he was a child. And he’s a rich doctor, doing just fine.

Loubani just wouldn’t leave the press conference, even when security guards asked him to. He kept shouting like a crazy person until police escorted him away.

So, sure, he’s a doctor. But he’s also a professional protester, an extremist activist. Who went to Egypt in August. Who would go there in the middle of a civil war? A trouble seeker, of course. He says he was trying to go to the Gaza Strip, a little piece of land ruled by Hamas, the terrorist group that is a branch of the Muslim Brotherhood.

That’s why he was arrested by Egyptian police. They’re at war with the Muslim Brotherhood right now.

Loubani and Greyson have been happy boosters of Hamas before, with Greyson involved in running an Israeli naval blockade of the Hamas forces in Gaza.

It’s technically accurate to call Greyson a filmmaker. But it is more informative to mention he’s a leader of the extremist group called Queers Against Israeli Apartheid – the anti-Israel group that has marched in the gay pride parade in Toronto. Which is odd, because Israel is the only country in the Middle East where homosexuality isn’t a crime and where they actually have a gay pride parade, too.

The punishment for being gay in the Hamas-run Gaza Strip is the death penalty.

Greyson is obsessed with sex. He makes movies about his obsessions, with titles like Urinal and After the Bath. He explores his sexual feelings about Pierre Trudeau. Of course he’s a professor at York University.

So, yes, Loubani is a doctor. And yes, Greyson is a filmmaker. Are those really the most relevant facts to report about them? Or is it more relevant to point out they are anti-Israel propagandists and activists who have made common cause with the Muslim Brotherhood’s Hamas wing for years — not just in the streets of Toronto and London, Ont., but in Gaza itself?

That these men are not mainstream or moderate. It’s lucky they were arrested by the Egyptian military, which only held them — as Canadian police would do, if foreign provocateurs came to town in the middle of a massive riot.

They’re lucky they weren’t arrested by the more enthusiastic members of Hamas’ religious police. They might not be as tolerant of Greyson’s sexuality as Canada is. They might not be as tolerant of Loubani’s free speech as Canada is.

But there’s another story here: You just can’t trust the Media Party to give you the straight facts, can you?

The fact that these two are professional protestors and supporters of Hamas seems to have eluded the majority of Canadian MSM.   One may even be considered a pervert.

More links to info on Tarek Loubani and John Greyson below:

30 Sep 2013 Toronto Sun article above:  http://www.torontosun.com/2013/09/30/whole-truth-hardly-media-party-spins-quite-a-tale-about-its-two-latest-heroes

04 Oct 2013 Sun News broadcast, (Ezra Levant on Terror Twins John Greyson & Tarek Loubani):       http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzZBWMDOC1w
 -  (Mention to John Greyson's brother Peter Greyson who defaced the original Charter of Rights in the National Archives with red paint. http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/07/19/a-blot-on-canadian-history-first-the-queen-signed-our-constitution-then-an-activist-threw-paint-on-it/)

08 Oct 2013 Globe and Mail article by Margaret Wente:  http://www.theglobeandmail.com/commentary/freed-canadians-are-radical-grandstanders/article14730628/#dashboard/follows/


Not two innocents who wandered into a country in the middle of a civil war, but two looking for controversy; and they found it.  Unfortunately for us, the MSM, at that time, painted them as victims, rather than what they really were.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: S.M.A. on October 21, 2013, 14:05:15
I posted this latest update here since I consider Russia "Western" ethnically and culturally even though some past historical rhetoric from the Cold War or even during or before the Second World War sometimes refers to the Soviet-era Russians as the "Eastern hordes".

It's because of the recognition by Islamic radicals in Dagestan/Chechnya that Russia is a western country and their disdain for western culture that they targeted Russian civilians in incidents such as the horrifying 2004 Beslan school massacre.

Quote


Terrorist blast kills at least 6, injures over 30 in Volgograd, central Russia

Published time: October 21, 2013 10:33

Preliminary data suggests that a female suicide bomber conducted the attack on the bus in Volgograd, central Russia, killing six people and injuring 33, according to the Russian Investigative Committee.

A terrorist act has been confirmed by the National Anti-terrorist Committee.

........

The Investigative Committee has identified the woman who was the suicide bomber: it's allegedly Naida Asiyalova, from Dagestan.  

The preliminary information indicates that “the female suicide bomber recently converted to Islam, and was the wife of a militant leader,” an Investigative Committee representative told the media. 

Also, a grenade has been found under the vehicle and it's now being checked whether the explosive is live, a source in the security forces now at the scene told RIA Novosti.

Forty passengers were on the bus. At least eight of them are in critical condition. A 20-month-old toddler is among those injured. His state is assessed as moderately severe.

.........

Video: www.rt.com/news/volgograd-bus-explosion-dead-486/
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: George Wallace on November 03, 2013, 17:08:19
Although this article refers to activities in the UK, it may just as well be happening in many other 'Western' nations.  Things like this make one wonder if our Charter of Human Rights is doing more harm than good and allowing those who are bent on destroying our way of life the freedoms, to do so without persecution:

Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.

Quote
Poppy-burning Muslims plan new 'Hell for Heroes' demonstration on November 11 (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2055365/Poppy-burning-Muslims-plan-new-hell-heroes-demonstration-November-11.html)

By Daily Mail Reporter
UPDATED: 09:46 GMT, 31 October 2011


An extreme Muslim group which caused outrage by burning a poppy last Remembrance Sunday is planning further disruption on November 11, with a twisted 'Hell for Heroes' campaign.


The demo, which mocks the charity for injured soldiers Help for Heroes, is due to take place outside the Royal Albert Hall, the same location where a poppy was burned last year.

Emdadur Choudhury, who burned the poppy, was fined just £50.

The Muslims Against Crusades protesters, who have sought permission from police to hold the rally, aim to chant and disrupt the minute's silence held in honour of the war dead.

Firebrand cleric Anjem Choudary, who has links to the Muslims Against Crusades group, said: 'It's going to be called Hell for Heroes and it will be around the Royal Albert Hall.

'It will involve a protest and not observing the minute's silence. We had a significant amount of support from Muslims around the world last year.

one thing to remember the dead from the First World War and subsequent wars but it's quite another when they say we need to remember the dead from Afghanistan and Iraq.

'It's become a political football and if they are going to use Remembrance Day for that purpose it's only right that we have a counter protest, which we say is for Muslims.

'The Army is currently at war with Muslims in Muslim countries.'


Choudary also played down reports that MP Mike Freer had feared for his safety after a protest at a north London mosque where he was holding a surgery last Friday afternoon.

Up to a dozen protesters forced their way into the mosque where Mr Freer was meeting constituents, prompting officials to lock him in a private room for his own safety.

Mr Freer, a member of Conservative Friends of Israel, said he was called a 'Jewish homosexual pig'.

He said he only later realised the MAC website had made reference to MP Stephen Timms, who was stabbed in his surgery by a Muslim women.

Choudary played down the protest saying: 'It was peaceful and there were no arrests.

'As far as I am aware, there is no suggestion anyone from MAC said anything anti-Semitic or homophobic.'


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2055365/Poppy-burning-Muslims-plan-new-hell-heroes-demonstration-November-11.html#ixzz2jcPrjxKy
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook


LINK (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2055365/Poppy-burning-Muslims-plan-new-hell-heroes-demonstration-November-11.html)

Related articles:


Tory MP 'hidden for his own safety' as Muslim extremist group storms his mosque visit after invoking Stephen Timms stabbing on website (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2055114/Tory-MP-Mike-Freer-hidden-safety-Muslims-Against-Crusades-group.html)

Going out shopping, the terror suspect who pocketed a million in compensation over torture claims (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2055474/Going-shopping-terror-suspect-pocketed-million-compensation-torture-claims.html)
 
Thieves desecrating memorials to our war heroes every other day as metal plaques and statues are being sold for scrap (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2055380/Thieves-desecrating-memorials-war-heroes-day-metal-plaques-statues-sold-scrap.html)


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2055365/Poppy-burning-Muslims-plan-new-hell-heroes-demonstration-November-11.html#ixzz2jcQ72ptw
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook




The UK is an example of where we may find ourselves some day.  What kind of steps do we need to take to ensure it does not happen here?  Education is one step.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: E.R. Campbell on November 03, 2013, 18:23:22
And how does this Muslim group differ, in principle, from e.g. the Westboro Baptist Church or Jewish extremist groups?

(https://Air-Force.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia.npr.org%2Fassets%2Fimg%2F2011%2F03%2F02%2Fwestboro1-3d0baab9ccc674c5428c2cf5342da0ffcee7da0e-s6-c30.jpg&hash=2b9cbcb3962bf608f34e83153030c9d4)
Westboro Baptist Church member at a military funeral


(https://Air-Force.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F1.bp.blogspot.com%2F_eOThecFRKFQ%2FScqwz1w5ARI%2FAAAAAAAACsY%2FGMz_o_r_Ikk%2Fs1600%2FIsraeli%2Bsettlers%2B2.jpg&hash=96ca5fb642934cafc728efb72b48d354)
Israeli "settlers" attack an Arab woman on the street


They're all alike, regardless of religion, and they are all worthy of equal condemnation. Islam is no worse than the other major religions; there are radical Buddhists (http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424127887324251504578576972115164736), and, I'm guessing, some pretty unpleasant Taoists, too.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: X_para76 on November 03, 2013, 22:37:24
With the exception that none of the other religions mentioned as far as I know represent a global terrorist threat.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: jollyjacktar on November 04, 2013, 07:49:49
With the exception that none of the other religions mentioned as far as I know represent a global terrorist threat.
It's not the religion that poses the threat, but some twisted sick MF'ing members of that religion using it as an excuse to commit acts of terror.  Sort of a "gun's don't kill people, people kill people" arguement.  It's just some followers of that path at the moment.  Other religions have had their parasites in the past doing much the same, it's just Islam's turn now.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Lightguns on November 04, 2013, 08:12:56
With the exception that none of the other religions mentioned as far as I know represent a global terrorist threat.

Yes and the Christians were the scrounge of the 17th to 19th centuries with their imperialism and colonialism.  But the big winner is the Atheists, who for most of the 20th century gained the world record for the slaughter humans under the guise of Communism.  It ain't the religious message, it is the dogma that humans attach to it.

Indeed, look about Canada right now, the next religious terrorism is on the rise, Eco-terrorism, it is rooted in Gaiaism, the belief that the ancestors live in the rocks and trees and you touch anything or there will be a great imbalance.  It is starting to cross racial divides and converts are coming from many factions of society.  We will be lucky if we are not fighting a war in our own streets in next 20 years.  And when we expend all our energy on that religious war, we find another dogma as an excuse to kill each other, it's what we do.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: S.M.A. on December 29, 2013, 12:46:39
Another suicide bomber strikes in in the Russian city of Volgograd, following a similar attack there back in Oct.21 (http://forums.navy.ca/forums/index.php/topic,81276.msg1264699.html#msg1264699) this year.

Defense News (http://www.defensenews.com/article/20131229/DEFREG01/312290004/Female-Suicide-Bomber-Kills-15-Russia-Train-Station)

Quote
Female Suicide Bomber Kills 15 At Russia Train Station

MOSCOW — A female suicide bomber killed 15 people Sunday when she blew herself up at the main train station in the southern city of Volgograd, raising concerns about security in Russia just six weeks before the Sochi Olympic Games.

The unidentified woman set off her charge after being stopped by a police officer at the metal detectors at the entrance to the station while it was packed with people traveling to celebrate the New Year, regional officials said.


Footage of the blast captured by a nearby camera showed a huge fireball blow out the front doors and a row of windows from the gray stone three-story building, before huge billows of smoke poured out as people scattered along the street.

Russia’s Investigative Committee spokesman Vladimir Markin said officials had launched an inquiry into a suspected “act of terror.”

“A suicide bomber who was approaching a metal detector saw a law enforcement official and, after growing nervous, set off an explosive device,” Markin said in televised comments.

Officials said at least 34 people were injured by the blast that had the explosive equivalent of more than 10 kilograms (16 pounds) of TNT. It was the deadliest attack in Russia for almost three years.

The police officer who spotted the woman died in the attack while several others who were stationed at the metal detectors were wounded by the blast.

State television said their actions prevented “hundreds” from being killed.

The lifenews.ru website meanwhile posted a picture of what it said was the head of the young female bomber lying amid a pile of debris with her long brown hair spread across the floor.

“It was a very powerful blast,” train station store attendant Valentina Petrichenko told the Vesti 24 news channel.

“Some people started running and others were thrown back by the wave of the blast,” she said. “It was very scary.”

Volgograd Mayor Irina Guseva vowed on Vesti 24 television: “We will not allow panic to grip this city.”

Olympic security fears
The city of Volgograd — known as Stalingrad in the Soviet era — was already attacked in October by a female suicide bomber with links to Islamists fighting federal forces in the nearby volatile North Caucasus.

The Oct. 21 strike killed six people aboard a crowded bus and immediately raised security fears ahead of the February 7-23 Winter Games in Sochi.

The Black Sea city lies 690 kilometers (425 miles) southwest of Volgograd and in direct proximity to the violence ravaging daily in North Caucasus regions such as Dagestan and Chechnya.

Militants are seeking to impose an Islamist state throughout Russia’s North Caucasus. Their leader Doku Umarov has ordered rebels to target civilians outside the region and disrupt the Olympic Games.

President Vladimir Putin staked his personal reputation on the Games’ success by lobbying for Sochi’s candidacy before the International Olympic Committee and then spending more than $50 billion (36 billion euros) for the event.

The Kremlin said Putin was “immediately” informed of the attack.

“The president is receiving reports as the events develop and as new information comes in — first of all, this concerns the number of people injured and killed,” Putin spokesman Dmitry Peskov told Russian state television.

Militant attacks have become part of daily life in the mainly Muslim Northern Caucasus but the Volgograd blast will be a particular concern to the authorities as the bomber struck a city of over one million in the Russian heartland.

The Volgograd attack is deadliest in Russia since the suicide bombing on Moscow’s Domodedovo airport in January 2011 that killed 37.

(...)

Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Cdn Blackshirt on December 31, 2013, 12:14:41
It's not the religion that poses the threat, but some twisted sick MF'ing members of that religion using it as an excuse to commit acts of terror.  Sort of a "gun's don't kill people, people kill people" arguement.  It's just some followers of that path at the moment.  Other religions have had their parasites in the past doing much the same, it's just Islam's turn now.

Every time I read someone make this counterargument, I'm 99.99% certain they've never read the Quran or Hadiths....

The bottom line is it's those that tolerate the West that by the rules of Islam are actually the heretics.



Matthew.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: George Wallace on December 31, 2013, 12:25:53
The bottom line is it's those that tolerate the West that by the rules of Islam are actually the heretics.

Boils down to: in whose eyes are the beholder. 

Look at the Chinese.  All non-Chinese are 'barbarians'.   Us Westerners, don't see it that way at all.  We do look on some as being very barbaric, as in the case of those radical Muslims who are perpetuating terrorism and less than acceptable ways in our eyes; but then again, we do not look on them as being Westerners either.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Journeyman on December 31, 2013, 12:32:15
......I'm 99.99% certain they've never read the Quran or Hadiths....
Not like that inclusive, touchy-feely book....the Bible -- the Old Testament is a particularly light-hearted romp....
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: GAP on January 12, 2014, 10:05:16
not sure where else to put this....

If you knew who was behind “Close-Gitmo” push, you'd be shocked
By J.D. Gordon January 10, 2014 FoxNews.com
http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2014/01/10/if-knew-who-was-behind-close-gitmo-march-youd-be-shocked/?intcmp=obnetwork (http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2014/01/10/if-knew-who-was-behind-close-gitmo-march-youd-be-shocked/?intcmp=obnetwork)

On Saturday, January 11, a coalition of "Close-Gitmo" forces is expected to march on Washington to commemorate the 12th anniversary of detention and interrogation operations. 

Though the march from the White House to the National Museum of American History is purportedly about advancing "human rights" and "stopping torture," a closer look at the key participants reveals a more troubling, some might say hidden, agenda.

If more Americans knew who is behind this campaign, there would be nationwide outrage.

While everyone is for “human rights” and “stopping torture,” Americans should not be fooled by these false flags meant to damage U.S. power and prestige. 

Just dig a little deeper into who has been driving the anti-Gitmo disinformation campaign these past 12 years, and we discover an international, fervently anti-American, far-left coalition attacking the nation through a savvy propaganda effort. 

This includes those linked to Al Qaeda financiers, communist groups, anarchist movements - backed by sympathetic press and politicians. 

Regrettably, it’s a coalition President Barack Obama has sided with in his priority to release as many Al Qaeda, Taliban and “affiliates” as humanly possible.

Let’s take a look at the key players: More on link
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: George Wallace on January 30, 2014, 10:13:26
CAIR-CAN is in the news again, this time under a their new revised name, The National Council of Canadian Muslims (NCCM).

Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.

LINK (http://www.cbc.ca/news/muslim-group-demands-apology-from-harper-chief-spokesman-1.2514099?cmp=fbtl)

Quote
Muslim group demands apology from Harper, chief spokesman

National Council of Canadian Muslims files a notice of libel over comments by Jason MacDonald

The Canadian Press Posted: Jan 28, 2014 12:24 PM ET| Last Updated: Jan 28, 2014 6:18 PM ET


A major Canadian Muslim group is demanding an apology from Prime Minister Stephen Harper and his chief spokesman for a comment it says linked the organization to the militant group Hamas.

The National Council of Canadian Muslims has filed a notice of libel in the Ontario Superior Court of Justice that accuses Jason MacDonald of acting maliciously when he made the comment earlier this month.

The council had criticized the inclusion of a controversial rabbi in Harper's delegation that went to the Middle East last week.

"Rather than responding to our legitimate concerns, the PMO's director of communications attacked us and attempted to smear our name by claiming NCCM had 'documented ties to a terrorist organization such as Hamas,"' Ihsaan Gardee, the council's executive director, told a news conference Tuesday.

"Nothing could be further from the truth. NCCM will not let the PMO's false statement stand."

The council says MacDonald's comment was a deliberate attempt to discredit the group and Harper is responsible for the words uttered by his spokesman. On CBC News Network's Power & Politics, Gardee told host Evan Solomon that "this is school-yard bully tactics – an attempt to silence dissent from anybody who has a differing view or anybody who asks a question of this government that is more difficult to answer than did the sun rise in the east this morning."

The libel notice is the first step in what could become a formal lawsuit.

The Prime Minister's Office responded tersely: "As this matter may be the subject of litigation, we have no further comment."

Foreign Affairs Minister John Baird told Solomon that he couldn't comment, but directed Canadians to the internet. "I’d encourage any Canadian to Google the group in question, and do some research on their own and come to their own conclusions."

Gardee was dismissive of that tactic: "If it's on the internet it must be true. C'mon."

Further legal action possible

Further legal action is possible, said Nader Hassan, lawyer for the council.

"Whether we go through with the lawsuit is going to depend on a number of factors, namely the quality, timing and content of the public apology and retraction," he said.

Gardee said MacDonald's comment was "categorically false, offensive and defamatory."

The libel notice says MacDonald's statement was unwarranted.

"The defamatory words were stated maliciously in order to discredit and insult an organization that did nothing other than exercise its constitutional right to freedom of expression to criticize a decision made by the prime minister," it said.

"Mr. MacDonald simply made up that statement in an effort to discredit NCCM and deflect its criticism of Mr. Harper."

The council describes itself as an independent, non-partisan, non-profit group which has worked for 14 years on human rights and civil liberties issues on behalf of Canadian Muslims. Gardee told Solomon the group has never shared any funding, staff or board members with the Council on American-Islamic Relations, a U.S. group that has also faced allegations of ties to militant groups.

The groups shared names (NCCM was known as CAIR-CAN) until July 2013. Gardee said the Canadian group only used the name because CAIR was well recognized within the Muslim civil liberties movement.

A half-dozen other rights groups, including the Canadian Civil Liberties Association and the Canadian Association of University Teachers, have offered support to the Muslim group.

Farhat Rehman of the Canadian Council of Muslim Women said more than just the council was impacted by the remark.

"This defamation endangers the very valuable work of NCCM and goes against every Canadian democratic principle," she said.

"Further, it exposes the members of NCCM and the whole Muslim community to suspicion, hatred and bigotry."
With files from CBC News

Looking deeper into the background:

Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.

LINK (http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/01/does-the-national-council-of-canadian-muslims-really-have-ties-to-hamas/)

Quote
Does the National Council of Canadian Muslims really have ties to Hamas?

Robert Spencer       Jan 18, 2014 at 3:56pm

Yesterday I noted that the National Council of Canadian Muslims (NCCM), the Canadian branch of the Hamas-linked Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR), demanded that Prime Minister Steven Harper drop Rabbi Daniel Korobkin from a delegation traveling to Israel because Korobkin committed the cardinal sin of introducing Pamela Geller and me at an event last September in Toronto. The Prime Minister’s office responded by noting the NCCM’s ties to Hamas, whereupon the NCCM threatened to sue.

So does the NCCM have ties to Hamas or not? The superb Canadian site Point de Bascule answers: “Prime Minister Harper’s director of communications slams the National Council of Canadian Muslims for ‘documented ties to a terrorist organization such as Hamas,’” from Point de Bascule (http://pointdebasculecanada.ca/articles/10003291-harper-s-director-of-communications-sharper-s-director-of-communications-nccm-cair-can-%E2%80%9Cdocumented-ties-to-a-terrorist-organization-such-as-hamas%E2%80%9D.html), January 17:


While Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper is getting ready for his first visit to the Middle East scheduled to start on Saturday January 18, the National Council of Canadian Muslims (NCCM ““ known until recently as CAIR-CAN) objected to the presence of Toronto Rabbi Daniel Korobkin in the official delegation.

Sun News reported (http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/sunnews/politics/archives/2014/01/20140116-132313.html) that “Jason MacDonald, the prime minister’s director of communications, slammed the NCCM for even making the suggestion. “˜We will not take seriously criticism from an organization with documented ties to a terrorist organization such as Hamas,” MacDonald said.”

The NCCM retorted that MacDonald’s statement was “˜absolutely false” and said that it is not associated with any terrorist group. NCCM Executive Director Ihsaan Gardee added by email that “Our legal counsel is of the view that this statement is defamatory and libelous and we will be taking this up with the PMO.”

The NCCM considers that Korobkin should not be part of the delegation accompanying PM Harper because, in September 2013, he introduced Pamela Geller and Robert Spencer, two anti-Islamist campaigners, at a public meeting in Toronto.

In order to understand the context of the PMO”s remarks, it is helpful to go back to the origins of CAIR-CAN. CAIR-CAN was established as a branch of the Washington-based Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) that had itself been founded by three leaders of a Hamas front group in the United States.

In their answers to FAQs (http://pointdebasculecanada.ca/archives/10003067-faqs-about-cair-can%E2%80%99s-name-change.html) provided when CAIR-CAN became NCCM, NCCM leaders completely falsified history and claimed that “There was never any operating or funding relationship between CAIR.CAN and CAIR.”)

The operating relationship between a Hamas front group called Islamic Association of Palestine, CAIR and CAIR-CAN is presented in the following chronology:

June 1994 ““ The Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) was established by three leaders of the Islamic Association of Palestine (IAP): Nihad Awad, Omar Ahmad and Rafeeq Jaber. The IAP was a front group for Hamas in the United States in the eighties and nineties. In a video (http://www.investigativeproject.org/223/cairs-awad-in-support-of-the-hamas-movement) archived by the Investigative Project on Terrorism, Nihad Awad expresses his support for Hamas at Barry University in 1994. In 2002, an American judge presiding the case ]Holy Land Foundation for Relief and Development v. Ashcroft (http://scholar.google.ca/scholar_case?case=12854346919716791872&q=%22Islamic+Association+for+Palestine%22+%22has+acted+in+support+of+Hamas%22&hl=en&as_sdt=2006#r[17) concluded that the “Islamic Association for Palestine (“IAP”), has acted in support of Hamas.”

2000 ““ Foundation of CAIR-CAN

December 29, 2000 ““ A CAIR-CAN press release issued in Washington (http://pointdebasculecanada.ca/images/data/pdf/0%20org%20cair%20hooper%202000.pdf) provides the name of a US-based CAIR leader as contact to comment about a fire at a mosque in Canada. In this press release, CAIR-CAN is referred to as CAIR’s “office in Canada.”

August 31, 2001 ““ A US-based CAIR leader”s name is added as contact in a CAIR-CAN press release (http://pointdebasculecanada.ca/images/data/pdf/0%20org%20cair%20hooper%20sh%20khan%202001.pdf) criticizing the Canada-based National Post. In this press release, CAIR-CAN is referred to as “the Canadian office of the Council on American-Islamic Relations.”

October 10, 2002 ““ Washington-based CAIR files a trade-mark application (http://pointdebasculecanada.ca/archives/10003090-application-by-washington-based-council-on-american-islamic-relations-to-register-the-acronym-cair-as-trade-mark-in-canada.html) for an exclusive use of its acronym CAIR in Canada. In the Canadian government”s database, the address of the applicant CAIR is the following:

453 New Jersey Avenue, South East
 Washington, D.C. 20003
 United States of America

2003 ““ In a Journalist’s Guide to Islam (http://pointdebasculecanada.ca/images/data/pdf/presentation%20pdeb%20to%20cair-can%20cfm%20journalist%20guide.pdf) conceived by CAIR-CAN (p. 15), Washington-based CAIR is described as “CAIR-CAN”s parent organization” (p. 14).

December 16, 2003 ““ CAIR-CAN Chair Sheema Khan swears in an affidavit supporting Washington-based CAIR in a legal trade-mark battle that it “has direct control (http://pointdebasculecanada.ca/img/pdf/cair_affidavit_Sheema_Khan.pdf)” over CAIR-CAN”s activities in Canada.

March 10, 2005 ““ A Canadian government agency confirms that, in Canada, the trade-mark on the acronym CAIR belongs to Washington-based CAIR (http://pointdebasculecanada.ca/archives/10003090-application-by-washington-based-council-on-american-islamic-relations-to-register-the-acronym-cair-as-trade-mark-in-canada.html).

August 14, 2007 ““ In a list of CAIR chapters (http://web.archive.org/web/20070814184951/http:/www.cair.com/default.asp?Page=chapters), CAIR-CAN appears between CAIR-Ohio and CAIR-Central Pennsylvania.

Two CAIR-CAN leaders openly endorsed Hamas after it was listed a terrorist organization by the Liberal government in 2002

Jamal Badawi and Wael Haddara are two important pillars of the Muslim Brotherhood infrastructure in Canada. Both were members of CAIR-CAN Board of directors for ten years or so. Badawi was still identified as a CAIR-CAN leader on the organization”s website on May 28, 2013 (http://web.archive.org/web/20130528190209/http:/www.caircan.ca/aboutus.php?section=Board), while Haddara resigned his position on the Board on April 3, 2012 (http://pointdebasculecanada.ca/archives/10002880-wael-haddara-resigns-from-cair-can-board-of-directors.html). On March 3, 2004, both of them were simultaneously on CAIR-CAN”s Board (http://pointdebasculecanada.ca/archives/10002928-cair-can-leadership.html) and on the Muslim Association of Canada“s Board (http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/ebci/haip/srch/t3010form18officers-eng.action?b=880495163RR0001&e=2004-12-31&n=MUSLIM+ASSOCIATION+OF+CANADA&r=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cra-arc.gc.ca%3A80%2Febci%2Fhaip%2Fsrch%2Ft3010form18-eng.action%3Fb%3D880495163RR0001%26amp%3Be%3D2004-12-31%26amp%3Bn%3DMUSLIM%2BASSOCIATION%2BOF%2BCANADA%26amp%3Br%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.cra-arc.gc.ca%253A80%252Febci%252Fhaip%252Fsrch%252Fbasicsearchresult-eng.action%253Fk%253Dmuslim%252520association%252520of%252520canada%2526amp%253Bs%253Dregistered%2526amp%253B%253DSearch%2526amp%253Bp%253D1%2526amp%253Bb%253Dtrue%2526amp%253B). That day, MAC issued a press release (http://pointdebasculecanada.ca/images/data/pdf/0%20org%20mac%20hamas%202004.pdf) in which it openly endorsed Hamas. That was more than one year after the Canadian government, Liberal back then, had added Hamas to a list of terrorist organizations. The listing is available on Public Safety Canada”s website (http://www.publicsafety.gc.ca/cnt/ntnl-scrt/cntr-trrrsm/lstd-ntts/crrnt-lstd-ntts-eng.aspx#2023).

Apart from being engaged in the destruction of Israel, in recent years Hamas leaders have frequently advocated the Islamic conquest of the West (2008 (http://www.jihadwatch.org/2008/04/islamic-cleric-we-will-conquer-rome-and-then-eastern-europe-and-the-americas.html) ““ 2011 (http://pointdebasculecanada.ca/articles/10002497-un-des-fondateurs-du-hamas-avertit-que-la-civilisation-occidentale-%C2%ABsera-incapable-de-r%C3%A9sister-au-grand-et-glorieux-islam%C2%BB.html) ““ 2012 (http://pointdebasculecanada.ca/articles/10002626-un-responsable-de-l%E2%80%99universit%C3%A9-islamique-de-gaza-encourage-la-conqu%C3%AAte-islamique-de-l%E2%80%99espagne-et-du-vatican.html)). On July 16, 2013, Hamas even threatened to launch terrorist attacks (http://www.memri.org/report/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/7295.htm) in countries where Israel embassies are located. Canada is among the potential targets, of course….
.



Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Colin P on January 30, 2014, 11:34:54
I for one welcome the suit, it might prove quite embarrassing to the council and destroy their creditability completely.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: S.M.A. on February 09, 2014, 18:10:42
Anyone remember that terror suspect who tried out (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eegkf-nVi8U) for Canadian Idol?  ::)

Yahoo News (http://ca.news.yahoo.com/dancing-doctor-face-terror-charge-more-three-years-182144315.html)

Quote
Dancing doctor to face terror charge more than three years after arrest

OTTAWA - More than three years after his arrest, a man who once auditioned for the Canadian Idol TV show will face trial on a terrorism charge.

Khurram Syed Sher, a doctor of pathology from London, Ont., is to be tried by judge alone in an Ottawa courtroom starting Monday.

Sher, 31, was charged along with two other men in August 2010 with conspiracy to facilitate terrorism.

The others cannot be named due to a recently imposed publication ban aimed at ensuring the jury in their trial, slated for April, is not prejudiced.

Following the sensational arrests, police said they seized terrorist literature, videos and manuals, along with dozens of electronic circuit boards allegedly designed to detonate homemade bombs remotely.

Three additional men, all believed to be living abroad, have been named as unindicted co-conspirators.

Police claimed the alleged plot stretched from Ottawa to Afghanistan, Dubai, Iran and Pakistan. A senior RCMP officer said at the time that an attack was still months away, but that the plotters were moving into a preparatory phase.

(...)


Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: George Wallace on February 11, 2014, 20:07:05
Interesting development in Toronto, where we find that a large tract of land is being purchased with the sole purpose to build a exclusive enclave for Muslim only people:

Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.


Quote
OPEN LETTER TO THE VOTERS OF THORNHILL

FP's Erin Goodwin Opposes Approval of
Muslim-only Development
(http://www.freedomparty.on.ca/mediareleases/2014-02-11.pr.htm)


Ladies and Gentlemen of the Riding of Thornhill:

Many of you will know that, on February 4, 2014, a meeting was held at Vaughan City Hall concerning a proposed expansion to the Jaffari Community Centre.  The proposal is for the construction of a 30 acre Muslim-only development involving two condominium towers and a number of townhouses for a total of 377 units.   The meeting drew an overflow crowd because the issue is of great concern, especially to those living near the proposed development.

A number of concerns have been raised about the development, which reportedly cannot proceed without obtaining special exemptions and approvals from government.  The project reportedly would not comply with zoning and planning criteria without the exemptions and approvals.  In addition, legitimate concern is being caused by the fact that proponents of the development - Islamic Shia Ithna-Asheri Jama'at of Toronto ("ISIJ") - initially made it clear that the intention is for a Muslim-only community on a 30 acre site.

Thornhill residents go to the polls this coming Thursday, February 13, 2014 to vote in the provincial by-election for the riding of Thornhill.  Concerned voters have written to Freedom Party of Ontario and to Erin Goodwin - Freedom Party's candidate in Thornhill - asking that we state the party's position with respect to the issue of the proposed development.

This issue is an important one not only for the riding, but for the precedent it could set for the province.  Accordingly, we are writing to ensure that you understand in no uncertain terms Freedom Party's position on the issue, and the position of Erin Goodwin, Freedom Party's candidate.

Freedom Party, its leader Paul McKeever, and its candidate Erin Goodwin oppose the granting of exemptions or approvals for the 30-acre development.  We oppose it in part because of the many zoning and planning concerns expressed by Thornhill residents who would suffer the consequences - including traffic congestion - were the development to get exemptions and approvals to go ahead. 

However, we also share the concerns of those who oppose - or are puzzled by - the Muslim-only nature of the proposed site.  Freedom Party is quite aware that the religious leader of the ISIJ is an Imam and author who regards only the laws of Allah - Sharia - to be legitimate law.  It would be naive, at the very least, to disregard the exclusive, Muslim-only nature of the proposed development, which we understand to include streets and allowances that would be not private but public lands. 

Contrary to the religious leader of the ISIJ, Freedom Party stands opposed to facilitating respect for Sharia law.  We advocate respect only for the laws made in our legislatures and courts, by the people, for the life and happiness of all of the children and adults on this good earth, of all religions.  We will not support the use of our laws to defend the existence of zones in which the laws made in our legislatures and courts are disregarded or discouraged.

Having made our own position clear, we encourage the Liberal and Progressive Conservative candidates to do the same, because those who remain mute in order to get elected, will remain mute in order to get re-elected.

Sincerely,


Erin Goodwin (Freedom Party candidate for the riding of Thornhill)

AND

Paul McKeever (Leader, Freedom Party of Ontario)


For further details, contact:

Paul McKeever, B.Sc.(Hons), M.A., LL.B.

Erin Goodwin


More info on LINK (http://www.freedomparty.on.ca/mediareleases/2014-02-11.pr.htm).

Both sides of this affair are inciting others to act.  On one hand is it the right thing to do to create a large segregated 'ghetto', and on the other hand is it right to 'call to arms' objectors to the plan.  We have already discussed the differences between the US and Canada when it comes to 'assimilation' and 'integration'.  Creating a segregated 'ghetto' is against both of those concepts. 
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: GAP on February 11, 2014, 20:55:27
Is this any different than a Catholic predominate area, a predominate Jewish area, a Hutterite colony?

It depends on the restrictions...
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: dangerboy on February 11, 2014, 21:14:36
The difference from what I can tell is with a predominate Catholic or Jewish area these occurred because people decided to move in those areas, they were not exclusively Catholic or Jewish anybody could live there but non-whatever religion (or group) chose not to.  With this it sounds like only Muslims can live there and if you are not Muslim you can't live there.   
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: George Wallace on February 11, 2014, 21:16:49
The difference from what I can tell is with a predominate Catholic or Jewish area these occurred because people decided to move in those areas, they were not exclusively Catholic or Jewish anybody could live there but non-whatever religion (or group) chose not to.  With this it sounds like only Muslims can live there and if you are not Muslim you can't live there.

Sound familiar......Only a few days ago, University upholds Muslims only can attend classes on Islam.....A trend seems to be developing........Not a good one.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: daftandbarmy on February 12, 2014, 00:44:30
Is this any different than a Catholic predominate area, a predominate Jewish area, a Hutterite colony?

It depends on the restrictions...

The British suffered through a terrorist war in NI spurred largely by the centuries old practise of the ghettoization of Catholics and Protestants. The people who lived in these 'Tribal Areas' as they were called were supposed to be safe, but in reality were preyed upon by extremists and gangsters from their own communities who extorted money from them and did everything a good old fashioned protection racketeer would do to get money, and reluctant volunteers, to support the 'cause'.

If they allow this to happen, it will likely be horrible for both the people within and outside of the Get-to
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: S.M.A. on March 18, 2014, 03:37:10
At least they caught him before he could leave...

National Post (http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/03/17/u-s-reservist-arrested-after-allegedly-trying-to-enter-canada-on-his-way-to-syria-to-join-al-qaeda-linked-group/)

Quote

U.S. reservist arrested after allegedly trying to enter Canada on his way to Syria to join Al-Qaeda-linked group

Before he boarded a Greyhound bus to Vancouver on the weekend, U.S. Army National Guard reservist Nicholas “Assad” Teausant boasted that he would one day be an infamous Al-Qaeda terrorist.

“I’m going to be on the front of every single newspaper in the country. Like I want my face on [the] FBI’s top twelve most wanted. Because that means I’m doing something right,” he said.

But Mr. Teausant’s Al-Qaeda fantasy came to an abrupt end late Sunday when U.S. Customs agents arrested him on a bus in Blaine, Wash., as he was attempting to cross the border into Canada.

The 20-year-old private has been charged with attempting to join the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria (ISIS), an armed faction that wants to overthrow President Bashar al-Assad and impose its brutal version of Islamic law in the region.

(...EDITED)


Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Hamish Seggie on March 18, 2014, 11:23:27
At least they caught him before he could leave...

National Post (http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/03/17/u-s-reservist-arrested-after-allegedly-trying-to-enter-canada-on-his-way-to-syria-to-join-al-qaeda-linked-group/)
He must have felt totally excluded....... :facepalm:



Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: tomahawk6 on March 18, 2014, 11:28:43
How about the digger that went to Syria to fight with the rebels and was killed ?

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-03-18/serving-australian-soldier-killed-in-syria/5329184
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: S.M.A. on April 01, 2014, 10:21:02
A copycat terrorist?

Military.com (http://www.military.com/daily-news/2014/04/01/fbi-hunts-army-recruit-suspected-of-plotting-jihad.html?comp=7000023317843&rank=3)

Quote
FBI Hunts Army Recruit Suspected of Plotting Jihad

 Fox News | Apr 01, 2014 | by Jana Winter

The FBI is searching for a recent Army recruit believed to be planning a "Fort Hood-inspired jihad against U.S. soldiers," FoxNews.com has learned.

The alert, whose legitimacy was confirmed by military and law enforcement officials, stated that a man identified as Booker had told friends of his "intention to commit jihad." Booker, who is also known as Muhammad Abdullah Hassan, was recruited by the U.S. Army in Kansas City, Mo., in February 2014 and was scheduled to report for basic training on April 7. But he was discharged last week, apparently after law enforcement authorities learned of his alleged plan.

Both the FBI and the 902d Military Intelligence Group at Fort Leavenworth are involved in the hunt.

(...EDITED)
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: S.M.A. on April 26, 2014, 22:22:40
Babbar Khalsa in the news again.

How can one be called "comparatively moderate" while maintaining their membership in a terrorist group?  ::)

Canadian Press (https://ca.news.yahoo.com/immigration-board-orders-member-sikh-terror-group-deported-222132764.html)

Quote
Immigration board orders member of Sikh terror group deported from Canada
The Canadian Press

By Keven Drews

VANCOUVER - Canada's Immigration and Refugee Board has ordered the deportation of a British man for belonging to Sikh separatist group that was engaged in terrorism.

Board member Geoff Rempel said in a ruling released Friday that Gurmej Singh Gill was a prominent member of Babbar Khalsa, which was also known as Babbar Khalsa International, and was personally connected to the group's international leaders, travelled extensively, attended conferences and engaged the media.

Rempel said Gill was likely aware of Babbar Khalsa's terrorist activities during his tenure with the group, whether or not he supported them.

"It is difficult to believe that Mr. Gill could have been unaware of the terrorist activities perpetrated by the BK/BKI in the 1980s and early 1990s, yet he remained a prominent member of the organization for many years," said Rempel.

"Even if Mr. Gill was comparatively moderate and did not approve of those tactics himself, he continued to belong to the organization."

As a result, Gill is inadmissible to Canada under the Immigrations and Refugee Protection Act, ruled Rempel.

Sukhjinder Grewal, Gill's lawyer, was not immediately available for comment.

When asked if Gill had been deported, the Canada Border Services Agency said it doesn't speak to individual cases because of privacy laws.

"The decision to remove someone from Canada is not taken lightly," the agency stated in an email. "The Immigration and Refugee Protection Act states that removal orders must be enforced as soon as possible. The CBSA is firmly committed to doing this."

Babbar Khalsa has been linked to the 1985 Air India bombing that killed 331 people on two flights that originated in Vancouver, and the Canadian government added it to a list of banned terror groups in 2003.

(...EDITED)


Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Brad Sallows on April 26, 2014, 23:39:04
Depends on who you're being compared to.  Every oddball political faction needs a couple of members who are really out there so that the remaining members can be billed as "comparatively moderate".
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: E.R. Campbell on April 29, 2014, 12:58:55
Another group, a 'charity,' is recognized as (or declared to be, if you like) a terrorist entity according to this article which is reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the Globe and Mail:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/charity-that-worked-in-palestine-added-to-canadas-terrorist-list/article18320497/#dashboard/follows/?click=drive
Quote
(https://Air-Force.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbeta.images.theglobeandmail.com%2Fmedia%2Fwww%2Fimages%2Fflag%2Fgam-masthead.png&hash=19ff3553db0adc5a5af34a8cb80569c3)
Charity that worked with Palestinians added to Canada’s terror list

DANIEL LEBLANC AND COLIN FREEZE
Ottawa and Toronto — The Globe and Mail

Published Tuesday, Apr. 29 2014

A Mississauga charity that has worked in the Palestinian territories has been added to the federal government’s list of terrorist entities (http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/SOR-2002-284/page-1.html#h-1).

On Tuesday, the government said it had reasonable grounds to believe that the International Relief Fund for the Afflicted and Needy Canada (IRFAN-Canada) has “knowingly carried out, attempted to carry out, participated in or facilitated a terrorist activity or is knowingly acting on behalf of, at the direction of or in association with such an entity.”

IRFAN-Canada had already lost its licence to issue tax receipts in 2011. The federal government pulled the status after years of tax audits and legal battles over allegations that the charity is tied to Hamas terrorists.

According to Public Safety Canada, IRFAN-Canada transferred approximately $14.6-million to various organizations associated with Hamas between 2005 and 2009.

“The Government of Canada is unwavering in its commitment to protect Canadians from the threat of terrorism,” Public Safety Minister Steven Blaney said in a statement. “By listing IRFAN-Canada, we are sending the strong message that Canada will not tolerate terrorist activities including the financing of terrorist groups. IRFAN-Canada has knowingly financed Hamas, a listed terrorist entity, for many years. The well intentioned and charitable Canadians who sought to support humanitarian relief through this organization deserve better.”

According to the Canada Revenue Agency, IRFAN-Canada “provided resources to operating partners that were run by officials of Hamas, openly supported and provided funding to Hamas, or have been listed by various jurisdictions because of their support for Hamas.”

As of now, it is a crime to “deal in the property or finances” of IRFAN-Canada, according to Public Safety.

Yavar Hameed, a lawyer representing IRFAN Canada, said in an interview that “I think it is very much a political decision where there is no due process.”

He pointed out that the charity has a May 6 date where it had hoped to appeal the revocation of its charitable status.  “We're days ahead of the first time we're going to the Federal Court of Appeal," he said, adding that “this just slams the door” on the outcome.

Mr. Hameed said that the charity has effectively ceased to function since losing its tax status. “The office exists but there’s no paid staff. Just essentially a physical location."

He stressed that the charity has never been accused of abetting any terrorist acts. Rather, the government allegation, which IRFAN-Canada disputes, is that the charity had allowed some money to be diverted to entities controlled by Hamas in the Gaza strip.

The blacklisting of IRFAN-Canada is an incremental story that has taken place over the backdrop of more than 10 years .

Ten years ago, the charity sued MP Stockwell Day -- later the Conservative Public Safety Minister -- for libel after he publicly alleged the group was tied to Hamas. The matter was settled out of court.

In the early 2000s, the Canada Revenue Agency first explored whether the charity had ties to Hamas. While the initial answer was no, the agency went back at the question between 2008 and 2010, and determined that it was sufficiently tied to Hamas to be blacklisted. This finding appears to set the stage for both the ongoing appeal and the criminal designation.

There was no Federal Court case involving-IRFAN Canada. In Canada, charitable revocations are appealed directly to the appellate court.

Records show the charity spent nearly $10-million in 2009, the year that a United Nations agency credited it for helping to build a school for Palestinian girls.

Ottawa has long targeted groups that are linked to terrorist activities in the Middle East. In 2006, the Conservative government announced that Canada would be the first state to suspend aid to the then-newly elected Hamas government.

The Conservatives went on to block British MP George Galloway from entering Canada, saying he had violated terrorism laws by being an outspoken Hamas supporter. (Judges overturned the measure and allowed Mr. Galloway to enter.)

In 1993, the U.S. Federal Bureau of Investigation secretly monitored a meeting of mostly Arab men in a Philadelphia hotel. The FBI came to harbour suspicions that the purpose of the meeting was to set up a vast network to funnel money to Hamas.

One attendee of the meeting, Canada’s Rasem Abdelmajid, went on to work as a general manager for IRFAN-Canada.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: George Wallace on May 08, 2014, 14:44:30
Do statements by a few such as these necessitate more vigilance and perhaps proactive measures?   Is this the credible threat that demands immediate government action or just a symptom of the times?  (Link in Title)

Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.

LINK (http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/05/07/abu-dujana-al-muhajir-says-fighting-jihad-becoming-as-canadian-as-maple-syrup/)

Quote
Jihad becoming ‘as Canadian as maple syrup’ says Calgary man who joined armed extremists in Syria (http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/05/07/abu-dujana-al-muhajir-says-fighting-jihad-becoming-as-canadian-as-maple-syrup/)

The National Post
Stewart Bell | May 7, 2014 | Last Updated: May 8 7:35 AM ET
More from Stewart Bell | @StewartBellNP

A Canadian foreign fighter in Syria taunted the “evil, despotic and Zionist Harper government” on Wednesday, claiming it was losing the battle against extremism and that fighting jihad was becoming “as Canadian as maple syrup.”

In a blog post, Abu Dujana al-Muhajir, part of a small circle of Calgary youths who left for Syria to join armed extremist groups, said “so-called radical Islamists” were gaining in popularity and the number of Canadian jihadists was growing.

He denounced leading Canadian Muslims opposed to extremist violence, naming writer Irshad Manji and imams Muhammad Robert Heft and Syed Soharwardy, calling them “deviant” and saying they were outnumbered by militants.

“Know very well that for every single sellouts [sic] like Tarek Fatah or Mubin Shaikh, we are gaining hundreds of brave Damian Clairmont and Andre Poulin from amongst you who are willing to sacrifice everything for the sake of Allah,” he wrote.

Mr. Clairmont, who lived on social assistance in Calgary, and Mr. Poulin, who had brushes with the law in Timmins, Ont., were troubled youths who converted to Islam, became radicalized and died soon after arriving in Syria.

Quoting pro-Al-Qaeda ideologue Anwar Al Awlaki saying that jihad was becoming as American as apple pie and as British as afternoon tea, Abu Dujana wrote it was “high time that we add to his statement ‘and as Canadian as maple syrup.’”

Responding to the blog post, Mr. Fatah called Abu Dujana an “Islamist promoter of a death cult” but said he agreed with him that those who subscribed to his extremist views should depart Canada to die for their cause.

“I say hallelujah,” said the author and columnist. “I urge all Canadian Islamists to follow the footsteps of this jihadi and leave Canada, permanently by burning their passports on arrival in Syria, Somalia, Pakistan or Afghanistan or whatever jihadi hellhole they wish to live in, but leave us alone and stop being the parasites that you are, eating away at Canada like termites.”

Mr. Shaikh, who helped bring down the Toronto 18 terrorist group in 2006, called Abu Dujana and his group “losers with no prospect of meaningful employment and even marriage.” He said they “depict Islam as a religion of terrorism” when “in reality, they are not even Muslims but parade around in its garb.”

Said Imam Soharwardy, founder of the Islamic Supreme Council of Canada: “There is no reward for this from Allah. Their war against innocent Muslims in Syria is not jihad at all. They are committing crimes and will be punished by Allah eternally in their graves.”

A naturalized Canadian citizen, Abu Dujana, made his comments in a tribute to Mr. Clairmont, who died in Aleppo in January. Written to counter what he called the “devil’s mouthpiece of Western media,” he wrongly claimed Mr. Clairmont had been “kicked out of his house” after his conversion.

He said a “brother” had introduced Mr. Clairmont to the lectures of Al Awlaki, who was killed in Yemen by a U.S. drone. Abu Dujana and Mr. Clairmont later started a prayer group at the Downtown 8th & 8th Musallah, a Calgary Islamic Centre.

He said most members of the group “have already made it to various fronts of jihad by the grace of Allah and some have even been awarded with martyrdom like the brother Mustafa [Mr. Clairmont] while the rest of us are waiting for that honour.”

The National Post revealed last month that the RCMP and Canadian Security Intelligence Service were investigating a small group of Calgary men believed to be fighting in Syria. CSIS says about 30 Canadians have joined extremist groups in Syria.

National Post

• Email: sbell@nationalpost.com



More links and photos from LINK (http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/05/07/abu-dujana-al-muhajir-says-fighting-jihad-becoming-as-canadian-as-maple-syrup/):

Related
RCMP tracking ‘high-risk’ Canadians to prevent radicalized youths from joining foreign terrorist groups (http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/04/27/rcmp-tracking-high-risk-canadians-to-prevent-radicalized-youths-from-joining-foreign-terrorist-groups/)
The story of how a young man from Calgary ended up dead in Syria (http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/04/25/the-path-to-extremism-the-story-of-how-one-young-man-from-calgary-ended-up-dead-in-syria/)
German program that reaches out to young men caught up in radicalism could be template for Canada (http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/04/04/german-program-that-reaches-out-to-young-men-caught-up-in-radicalism-could-be-template-for-canada/)
Syrian extremists threaten to ‘destroy’ Canada in online video (http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/04/14/syrian-extremists-threaten-to-destroy-canada-in-online-video/)
RCMP raids Muslim relief group’s offices as Canada declares it a terrorist organization (http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/04/29/canada-outlaws-toronto-based-muslim-relief-group-adds-it-to-terrorist-list/)
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Brad Sallows on May 10, 2014, 14:09:38
I checked my fridge.  Maple syrup, but no jihadis.  Oh well.

I concur with Mr Fatah.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Colin P on May 22, 2014, 11:16:30
We need more Mr Fatah"s!  :nod:
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Larry Strong on May 26, 2014, 21:28:44
Moving on to stage 2:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/muslim-group-takes-next-step-in-libel-suit-against-stephen-harper-1.2654252

Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.

Quote
Muslim group takes next step in libel suit against Stephen Harper

A national Muslim organization is proceeding with a lawsuit against Prime Minister Stephen Harper and his chief spokesman for a comment it says linked the organization to a terrorist group.

The National Council of Canadian Muslims is filing a statement of claim in Ontario Superior Court after failing to get an apology from the Prime Minister's Office for the January remark.

Lawyer Jeff Saikaley says the council is seeking a public retraction and damages of up to $100,000.

The comment in question came after the council criticized the inclusion of controversial rabbi Daniel Korobkin in a delegation accompanying Harper to the Middle East.

In January the council took its first legal step by filing a notice of libel which quotes Harper spokesman Jason MacDonald as saying, "We will not take seriously criticism from an organization with documented ties to a terrorist organization such as Hamas."

The comment was "categorically false, offensive and defamatory," Ihsaan Gardee, the council's executive director, said at the time.

'No choice'

Discussions between the parties have not resolved the matter.

"We did have conversations with the lawyer representing Stephen Harper and Jason MacDonald, and we weren't able to reach a satisfactory agreement. So we have no choice but to proceed to the next step," Saikaley said.

"We're still hopeful that something can be done to avoid an actual trial, but for the time being this is what's been required to protect our client's interests."

The council describes itself as an independent, non-partisan, non-profit group that has worked for 14 years on human rights and civil liberties issues on behalf of Canadian Muslims.

A half-dozen other rights groups, including the Canadian Civil Liberties Association and the Canadian Association of University Teachers, have offered support to the Muslim group.



Larry
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Journeyman on May 27, 2014, 08:46:48
A half-dozen other rights groups, including the Canadian Civil Liberties Association and the Canadian Association of University Teachers, have offered support to the Muslim group.
Should that be a "rights' group" or a "Harper-hating -- regardless of cause -- group"? 
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: milnews.ca on May 27, 2014, 10:20:55
More like "USED TO Walk Among Us" (http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/faouzi-ayoub-lebanese-canadian-terror-suspect-reportedly-killed-in-syria-1.2655194)....
Quote
Reports from Lebanon say that a Lebanese-Canadian, who has been on the FBI's most-wanted list of terror suspects (http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/wanted_terrorists/faouzi-mohamad-ayoub/view), has been killed in Syria.

One media report published online says Faouzi Ayoub was killed in an ambush by members of the Free Syrian Army in Aleppo last week.

Ayoub, 48, was a commander of the Islamic militant group Hezbollah, which Canada and the United States have classified as a terrorist organization.

Before moving back to Lebanon, Ayoub lived in Toronto and Dearborn, Mich ....
A bit more from Egyptian media here (http://english.ahram.org.eg/NewsContent/2/8/102322/World/Region/Wanted-Hezbollah-commander-killed-in-Syria.aspx).
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: E.R. Campbell on June 01, 2014, 13:13:10
"Non-violence" is an oxymoron to this religion.  They have so many "excuses" to be violent.


I responded to this post before, but this, in the Globe and Mail (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-debate/hatred-of-women-not-islam-fuels-pakistans-honour-killings/article18919949/#dashboard/follows/), offers a better explanation. The author ecplains that

     "The practice of murdering daughters and sisters who defy familial wishes and supposedly muddy the ‘honour’ of the family is practically a social institution in the tribal belts of South Asia and the Middle East. But before the reflexive
       Islam bashers begin clearing their throats, it is useful to remember that such crimes have no basis in Islam, which teaches that marriage is a consensual and equal partnership.

      The tribal practice is grounded instead in an antediluvian, violent hatred of female sexuality. Not a fear of sexuality, mind you, but a deeply entrenched loathing of it; where the clan’s entire sense of esteem is defined by the chastity
      of its women. Thus, the woman’s right to self-determination must be negated. Her genitals must be controlled. Her sexuality must be denied. She is to abide by the dictates of her father and brothers or face violent punishments.
      What we call ‘honour killings’ – a placid and useless term – should actually be called human sacrifice, because such murders-of-shame are relics from our premodern days when humans sacrificed one another based on various superstitions.
       Notice the almost universal correlation today between honour killings and illiteracy or general lack of education.

       The extreme patriarchy of Parveen’s father and brother – of countless fathers and brothers around the world – is rooted in a fundamentally totalitarian understanding of male-female relations. For ultratraditional, ultraconservative men
       like Parveen’s father, only absolute dominion over the daughter’s reproductive choices will suffice. Anything short of this is warrant for murder. The logical conclusion of this grotesque thinking is genital mutilation or murders so horrific
       one wonders how such crippling inhumanity poisoned the patriarch’s mind in the first place."

Can we change those "tribal practices?" Yes, but not with a few thousand soldiers in some dusty, dirty, poor country over, say, a dozen years. It is the work of civilization and it is also the work of centuries.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: jollyjacktar on June 04, 2014, 08:33:47
This caught my attention on the drive in today.   >:(

Quote
Suicide bomber killed in Iraq part of wider jihadi base in Calgary
Salman Ashrafi, killed in 2013 suicide attack, lived in same building as 4 other extremist fighters

CBC NewsPosted: Jun 03, 2014 8:59 PM ET|

Homegrown extremism abroad has a new face, and CBC News has learned it belongs to yet another Calgary man, a development that points to the West as a hotbed for exporting jihadis.

His name is Salman Ashrafi, and when the Al-Qaeda splinter group ISIS (Islamic State of Iraq and Syria) released images of him last month following a double suicide bombing in Iraq in November that killed 46 people, he was celebrated in a martryrdom notice.  Only then, he was known as Abu Abdullah Al Khorasani.

CBC News has confirmed that Al Khorasani was Ashrafi's nom de guerre and that he was a Canadian citizen who grew up in the Stampede City, where he went to school and worked.  The Calgarian's story is one of as many as two dozen others, most of whom left to battle alongside rebel militants in Syria.  At one time, Ashrafi led a lifestyle many would have envied, with jobs at Talisman and Exxon and huge downtown Calgary firms.

Calgary imam stunned

Much has changed since then. The revelation that he killed himself and others as part of an attack for ISIS — a group known for such grotesque violence it has even drawn condemnation from Al-Qaeda — has stunned people who spoke with CBC News and knew him.
Among them was Syed Soharwardy, the prominent Calgary imam."Oh, I know him! Oh my God," the cleric said, upon seeing a photo of Ashrafi and being told the militant was killed in the 2013 Tarmiya, Iraq, suicide attack.

Soharwardy was a longtime acquaintance of the family and had watched Ashrafi and his siblings "grow up in front of me."  Shocking though it may have been, Ashrafi's journey from being a University of Lethbridge student who organized anti-racism rallies to a violent end as a suicide bomber is not an anomaly.

Calgary connection

Calgary is earning a reputation as a breeding ground for jihadi fighters.  'It is impossible for me to think the intelligence people do not know who is radicalizing Muslim youth. It is going on undercover; it is going on openly sometimes.'- Syed Soharwardy, Calgary imam

The Muslim convert Damian Clairmont, who later took the name Mustafa al-Gharib, was killed while fighting with Jabhat al-Nusra, an al-Qaeda-affiliated rebel group in Syria whose membership is made up largely of European, Australian and North American extremists.

Clairmont was also raised in Calgary, as were as many as two dozen other young men who, according to sources, have travelled to Syria to join rebel extremist groups to wage jihad in the last two years.Understanding the relationships between five men in particular — Ashrafi, two Canadian brothers, Clairmont and his roommate — could be key to unravelling how they became radicalized. CBC News is withholding the identities of the other three men until more information surfaces.

But they were all friends who dined at the same restaurants, prayed at the same mosque and lived in the same apartment building in downtown Calgary.  According to one source who knew all the men, they had meetings, sometimes in Ashrafi's apartment, where he reportedly instructed them that the only way to live with non-Muslims was to either convert them or subjugate them, and failing that migrate to a land of Islam.  They all left Canada at roughly the same time late 2012.

Path to violence

One man who knew Ashrafi in 2009 said he was "both surprised and not surprised" to hear of his path to violent extremism.  Canadian-born Muslim convert Damian Clairmont left Calgary in 2012 for Syria, where he was killed during battle against a faction of the Free Syrian Army.

"Salman had, within his personality, kind of … two sides to his personality," said the man, who did not want to be named because he is afraid of the consequences of speaking out. "On the one hand, he was an extremely kind and gentle person, but he also had a very black and white view of the world. A kind of simplistic view of the world."

Ashrafi's views troubled him.  "I tried to bring it up with him in conversation on a few occasions, but my own feeling was that he's just going to learn on his own as he grows older," he said, characterizing Ashrafi as "impressionable."  "He might have been around certain charismatic preachers in the community that might not have had his best interests in mind," he added.

It's a thought shared by Soharwardy, the Calgary imam, who has received death threats for speaking out about this topic, but feels compelled to in order to stop men in his city from killing and dying on jihadi missions abroad.  "It is impossible for me to think the intelligence people do not know who is radicalizing Muslim youth. It is going on undercover; it is going on openly sometimes," he said.

"The thing is they are recruiting Muslims to go and fight in Syria and getting them killed. It is horrible.… What is the Canadian government doing? Nothing. I mean this guy died, many, many … people died from our country. For what?"

Soharwardy said he has told police and university administrators, warning them about lecturers who might be preying on vulnerable young minds and that he believes he knows which organizations may be radicalizing young men. So far, he said, there has been no response.

CBC News reached out to the city as well as local police, who declined to comment.

As for what might have motivated Ashrafi to carry out such a deadly attack in Iraq, his family are perplexed, and still have many questions of their own. In emails to CBC News, a family member said the reports were "shocking and unbelievable," and that the family have still not accepted "that this is how Salman's life ended."
With files from Nazim Baksh, Adrienne Arsenault

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/suicide-bomber-killed-in-iraq-part-of-wider-jihadi-base-in-calgary-1.2663890
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: d_edwards on June 04, 2014, 09:37:06
I checked my fridge.  Maple syrup, but no jihadis.  Oh well.

I concur with Mr Fatah.

Now that is funny. 
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Hatchet Man on June 04, 2014, 11:53:22

I responded to this post before, but this, in the Globe and Mail (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-debate/hatred-of-women-not-islam-fuels-pakistans-honour-killings/article18919949/#dashboard/follows/), offers a better explanation. The author ecplains that

     "The practice of murdering daughters and sisters who defy familial wishes and supposedly muddy the ‘honour’ of the family is practically a social institution in the tribal belts of South Asia and the Middle East. But before the reflexive
       Islam bashers begin clearing their throats, it is useful to remember that such crimes have no basis in Islam, which teaches that marriage is a consensual and equal partnership.

      The tribal practice is grounded instead in an antediluvian, violent hatred of female sexuality. Not a fear of sexuality, mind you, but a deeply entrenched loathing of it; where the clan’s entire sense of esteem is defined by the chastity
      of its women. Thus, the woman’s right to self-determination must be negated. Her genitals must be controlled. Her sexuality must be denied. She is to abide by the dictates of her father and brothers or face violent punishments.
      What we call ‘honour killings’ – a placid and useless term – should actually be called human sacrifice, because such murders-of-shame are relics from our premodern days when humans sacrificed one another based on various superstitions.
       Notice the almost universal correlation today between honour killings and illiteracy or general lack of education.

       The extreme patriarchy of Parveen’s father and brother – of countless fathers and brothers around the world – is rooted in a fundamentally totalitarian understanding of male-female relations. For ultratraditional, ultraconservative men
       like Parveen’s father, only absolute dominion over the daughter’s reproductive choices will suffice. Anything short of this is warrant for murder. The logical conclusion of this grotesque thinking is genital mutilation or murders so horrific
       one wonders how such crippling inhumanity poisoned the patriarch’s mind in the first place."

Can we change those "tribal practices?" Yes, but not with a few thousand soldiers in some dusty, dirty, poor country over, say, a dozen years. It is the work of civilization and it is also the work of centuries.

A less extreme example of this viewpoint  in "Modern" "Christian" societies is the growing prevalence of "Purity Balls" (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2586036/You-married-Lord-daddy-boyfriend-Purity-Balls-girls-gift-virginity-fathers-marriage-sweep-America.html)  while definately not high in violence, pretty high in the WTF/Creepy factor (IMHO) and definately inside the sphere of controlling girls/women's sexuality, since AFAIK no corresponding event for boys. 
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Hamish Seggie on June 04, 2014, 14:15:55
ER that is f#%king sick.

It's no wonder I do not subscribe to any organized religion.


Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: E.R. Campbell on June 04, 2014, 14:36:23
ER that is f#%king sick.

It's no wonder I do not subscribe to any organized religion.


Except that it is NOT a religious issue ... it's not unique to Islam or to Hindus or even to some Christian sects.

It is cultural and, contrary to what Liberals and fellow travelers say, all cultures are not equal; some are strong and flexible enough to change as their understandings of the world in which they live evolve; others are weak and rigid, afraid to change ... large parts of South-Eastern Europe (you served there, I think), the Middle East (many of us served there) and Central Asia (where a lot of your younger friends have served) have weak, rigid cultures - some of them are Islamic, some are Christian, others are something else.

It's not about religion ...
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Hamish Seggie on June 04, 2014, 14:47:05
Understood ER.


Still, there are those out there in all religions who subscribe to this nonsense.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Hatchet Man on June 04, 2014, 15:04:50
Understood ER.


Still, there are those out there in all religions who subscribe to this nonsense.

I think the religious connection happens for 2 (sometimes) interconnected reasons.

1) It makes it an easier and more convient target to say x religion are misogynistic thugs.  Say it loudly enough and people ignore the misogyny in y and z religions.

2) Some people deliberately invoke religion because it makes it easier to control others.  Telling people they need to comply with you directives, simply because you want them to, kinda goes over like a lead balloon.  Telling people they need to comply, because if they don't God/Allah/Yahweh/Flying Spagehetti Monster will be pissed and you will face eternal damnation, seems to bring about more compliant behaviour in "believers". 
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Hamish Seggie on June 04, 2014, 15:48:27
Flying Spaghetti Monster?

Hhhhmmm m

I watched CBC Newsworld this morning and it seems the city of Calgary is a fertile recruiting ground for jihadists.....24 in the past few years have joined......
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Hatchet Man on June 04, 2014, 15:59:18
Flying Spaghetti Monster?

http://www.venganza.org/
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: GAP on June 04, 2014, 16:45:26
Understood ER.
Still, there are those out there in all religions who subscribe to this nonsense.

Oh...like burning witches? 
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: jollyjacktar on June 04, 2014, 17:24:03
There really should, ER, be a better name for what those barbarian's and their beliefs are and come from than "culture".  They are anything but, "cultured". 
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Hamish Seggie on June 05, 2014, 01:36:21
Oh...like burning witches?

Or stoning people to death for various infractions of their "religion".
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: BorisK on June 05, 2014, 02:49:27

Or stoning people to death for various infractions of their "religion".

I seem to recall Christopher Hitchens (R.I.P.) once saying something along the lines of : 'be funny about the serious stuff in life and serious about the funny stuff and you'll be for the most part alright' so with sentiment in mind :

http://youtu.be/bDe9msExUK8

(Sorry, pardon the hijack. It's been a long day and I needed some comic relief.) : )
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: George Wallace on June 19, 2014, 10:29:29
Interesting update on some of the Calgarians who have left the country to fight as insurgents in jihads in the Middle East and Africa, and some of their backgrounds.  In some cases, Canada has accepted these people as refugees from Islamic states in conflict, and now may be in a position of accepting "Canadian citizens" back into our country who have publicly displayed anti-West statements and barbaric activities as insurgents in foreign nations.


Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.


LINK (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/farah-mohamed-shirdon-of-calgary-fighting-with-islamic-state-of-iraq-and-syria-1.2680206)

Quote
Farah Mohamed Shirdon of Calgary fighting with Islamic State of Iraq and Syria (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/farah-mohamed-shirdon-of-calgary-fighting-with-islamic-state-of-iraq-and-syria-1.2680206)

Somali-Canadian in his 20s appears in passport burning video uttering threats against West
CBC News Posted: Jun 18, 2014 9:00 PM ET
Last Updated: Jun 19, 2014 8:39 AM ET

Farah Mohamed Shirdon, a Calgarian in his early 20s, is fighting overseas with the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria, CBC News has learned.

Shirdon, who was enrolled in the Southern Alberta Institute of Technology until at least 2012, appears in an ISIS video released two months ago.

Before burning his Canadian passport, Shirdon, in full view of the camera lens, issues a threat to Canada, the U.S. and "all oppressors."

"We are coming and we will destroy you by the will of God," Shirdon says on the video.

He comes from a prominent and well-educated Somali family. His father’s brother, Abdi Farah Shirdon, was a former prime minister of Somalia who has survived numerous attempts on his life by al-Shabab militants fighting for an Islamic state in Somalia under the banner of al-Qaeda.

Shirdon’s mother and sister live in Calgary and are deeply involved in the religious life of their community. CBC News reached out to them repeatedly, but they would only say they are "confused and pained by Farah’s choice," before asking for privacy.

Though it’s unclear how real his threats are, Shirdon is the latest young man from Calgary to be identified by CBC News as a Canadian fighting overseas.

In January, the CBC’s Adrienne Arsenault first reported on the death of Damian Clairmont, a 22-year-old Canadian-born Muslim who left Calgary for Syria in 2012 and was killed by rebel infighting there.

CBC News also reported on Salman Ashrafi, a Calgary man involved in a November 2013 suicide mission in Iraq under the banner of ISIS.

A ‘regular guy’

Both Clairmont and Ashrafi were members of a small group of at least six men who used an apartment building in downtown Calgary as a hub to discuss radical ideas and chart their path to jihad in Syria and Iraq, CBC News has learned, but it’s not clear if Shirdon was a member of their inner circle as well.

One reliable source declined to say if Shirdon was connected to the group, who prayed at the so-called 8th and 8th Musalla and frequented the same restaurants.

Hamza Ayedi, an outreach co-ordinator for Muslim youth in Calgary who knew Shirdon, said he never saw Shirdon in the company Clairmont and Ashrafi, but that all three individually expressed the same sentiments of "not feeling comfortable living in this country" and "wanting to go live in a Muslim country."

Ayedi said the ISIS passport-burning video became popular a few weeks ago when news began circulating in the community that one of their own can be seen participating.

"I was really shocked because he has evolved big time, I don’t remember him even saying anything like that," said Ayedi, who last saw Shirdon this past September.

“He was just a regular guy.”

130 Canadians have joined terror groups: CSIS

After burning his passport and uttering threats of violence, it is unlikely Shirdon will be allowed back into Canada. But there is a concern now that even more residents of Calgary may follow his lead.

No one knows for sure how many men from Calgary, or Canada as a whole, have left to wage jihad in Iraq, Syria and elsewhere.

Ayedi said that when CSIS visited him a few months ago, they showed him pictures of 10 Muslim men from Calgary and asked him what he knew about them or their whereabouts. 

In February, Canadian Security Intelligence Service director Michel Coulombe testified before the Senate national security and defence committee hearing that an estimated 130 Canadians had gone abroad to join terror groups in Syria, Yemen, Somalia and north Africa.

Coulombe estimated that some 30 alone had left for the Syria-Iraq area.

Coulombe also announced in late March that CSIS was tracking up to 80 Canadians suspected of having participated in terror activities abroad before returning to Canada.

Low profile

Shirdon’s passport-burning video was made to be seen — at one point, he lists the places ISIS wants to attack: "God willing, after Syria, after Iraq, after Jazeera (the Arabian Peninsula), we are going for you Barack Obama" — but he kept a low profile in Calgary.

The source who declined to say if Shirdon belonged to the same group as Ashrafi and Clairmont did say that those two men and at least four others would hold secret meetings to avoid detection.

So far, it’s been enough to keep CSIS and the RCMP’s Integrated National Security Enforcement Team playing catch-up.

Calgary police said they’ve been watching radicalization in the city for eight years, and briefed city politicians on their work after news of Ashrafi’s suicide bombing.

Neither the City of Calgary, local police or the RCMP would speak with CBC News on the extent of the threat to Canada or what is being done to tackle religious extremism at home.

The Islamic Information Society of Calgary issued a news release to CBC saying it’s been warning youth about those who would recruit them for radical causes.

“Our message to the youth has been crystal clear:  if someone is telling you that you will go to Paradise by blowing yourself up in a plane, a train or a public place taking your life and the lives of innocent people, then he is misleading you and committing a crime against the whole society and against the Islamic religion itself,” said Hacene Chebbani, the IISC’s director of religious affairs, in the news release.

The organization also called on all Muslim Canadian organizations to stamp out radical views “within our circles.”

With files from Adrienne Arsenault and Nazim Baksh




More on LINK (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/farah-mohamed-shirdon-of-calgary-fighting-with-islamic-state-of-iraq-and-syria-1.2680206).

Recent terrorism-related cases with Canadian connections (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/recent-terrorism-related-cases-with-canadian-connections-1.1016842)
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: jollyjacktar on June 19, 2014, 10:37:55
I do believe the Feds are working on a plan to strip citizenship from those who hold dual status and leave Canada to be terrorists with ISIS etc.  If that's the case here with this POS, then hopefully he won't get his burned passport replaced and can stay the hell away from here when he wants to come back if the Feds get their act together.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: George Wallace on June 19, 2014, 10:58:52
I do believe the Feds are working on a plan to strip citizenship from those who hold dual status and leave Canada to be terrorists with ISIS etc.  If that's the case here with this POS, then hopefully he won't get his burned passport replaced and can stay the hell away from here when he wants to come back if the Feds get their act together.

Too often, however, we have seen our own "Charter of Rights" used, or abused, depending on how you look at it, to protect their "rights".   
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: George Wallace on June 19, 2014, 11:51:04
Here is an interesting presentation on the debates into the deaths of four Americans at the embassy in Benghazi.  A Muslim woman asks a question to which Brigitte Gabriel replies (on the video linked to article).

Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.


LINK (http://therightscoop.com/brigitte-gabriel-gives-fantastic-answer-to-muslim-woman-claiming-all-muslims-are-portrayed-badly/)

Quote
Brigitte Gabriel gives FANTASTIC answer to Muslim woman claiming all Muslims are portrayed badly (http://therightscoop.com/brigitte-gabriel-gives-fantastic-answer-to-muslim-woman-claiming-all-muslims-are-portrayed-badly/)

The Right Scoop
Posted on Jun 18, 2014 at 9:34 AM in Politics | 330 Comments

This Heritage event on Benghazi has gotten a lot of press over the last day or two, with the left claiming the event turned ‘ugly‘ and that the Muslim woman was ‘pounced on’ and ‘bullied’ by members of the panel.

But after watching it myself, that characterization couldn’t be more wrong. In fact Brigitte Gabriel’s answer to this Muslim woman is perhaps the best answer I’ve ever heard to the ‘peaceful Muslims’ question.


Videos attached to article in
LINK (http://therightscoop.com/brigitte-gabriel-gives-fantastic-answer-to-muslim-woman-claiming-all-muslims-are-portrayed-badly/).
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: BurnDoctor on June 19, 2014, 22:39:40
Perhaps Mr. Pitt's character in Inglorious Basterds (sic) said it best, re: those wanting to to pay the ultimate price for their country (Nazi Germany, in the case of that film, here substitute "cause" or "twisted belief system"):  "Oblige him".
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: S.M.A. on July 07, 2014, 14:43:42
CBC (http://news.ca.msn.com/top-stories/the-life-of-a-jihadi-wife-why-one-canadian-woman-joined-isiss-islamic-state)

Quote
Updated: Mon, 07 Jul 2014 05:00:00 GMT | By CBC News, cbc.ca
The life of a jihadi wife: Why one Canadian woman joined ISIS's Islamic state

Eight months ago, Umm Haritha, a 20-year-old woman from Canada, made her way to Turkey against her parents’ wishes with a half-empty suitcase and $1,500.

Within a week she was in Syria, and a few weeks later she was married to Abu Ibrahim al-Suedi, a 26-year-old Palestinian from Sweden fighting for Islamic State in Iraq and Syria (ISIS), the Sunni jihadist group battling the Syrian regime.

It is not clear whether Umm Haritha's marriage to Abu Ibrahim was arranged before her travel to Syria. Regardless, it only lasted five months.

On May 5, Abu Ibrahim, whose real name is Taha Shade, was in a car en route to a meeting in Deir ez-Zor with members of rival faction Jabhat al-Nusra. What was meant to be a gathering to finalize a peace treaty between ISIS and al-Nusra turned deadly when an al-Nusra fighter on a motorbike sped up to Shade’s car and detonated his explosive belt.

At the time, Shade was wearing his own explosive belt, which also went off and blew him to pieces.

Two days later, Umm Haritha tweeted about her husband’s death, calling on “Allah” to “destroy those who backstabbed the brothers and resurrect Abu Ibrahim with noor [light] from every piece of his body.”

Umm Haritha’s journey to Syria highlights an underreported part of the western Jihadist experience in Syria.

While the International Centre for the Study of Radicalisation (ICSR) has estimated that up to 2,800 Western men have gone to Syria to fight, much less is known about the Western women who have gone over to marry jihadists since the Syrian civil war began three years ago.

The ICSR has located 28 such women who are currently active on social media.


(...EDITED)

Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Transporter on July 07, 2014, 15:58:17
CBC (http://news.ca.msn.com/top-stories/the-life-of-a-jihadi-wife-why-one-canadian-woman-joined-isiss-islamic-state)

They should open a "gofundme" account. I'd gladly donate for airfare and per diem.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: George Wallace on July 12, 2014, 11:49:17
Interesting comments out of Australia.  Sound familiar?


Quote
Published on Jun 29, 2014
www.planetcideradio.com
This was pulled off AUSTRALIA's Today Tonight and never aired!
This clip was made by Today Tonight, Channel 7 a while ago.
Due to political correctness it was decided not to broadcast it.
However it has been leaked out.

Link to short version, with disclaimer above. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3CSC4zTWW0)

LINK to full version. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjcfoD2mzeQ)
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: George Wallace on July 12, 2014, 21:11:32
Not sure on the accuracy of this, nor the credibility rating of this website, but this is disturbing if true:

Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.

Quote
Media Silent as Muslims Ethnically Cleanse 60,000 Christians in Philippines (http://www.frontpagemag.com/2013/dgreenfield/media-silent-as-muslims-ethnically-cleanse-60000-christians-in-philippines/)

FRONTPAGE MAG
September 15, 2013 by Daniel Greenfield

Daniel Greenfield, a Shillman Journalism Fellow at the Freedom Center, is a New York writer focusing on radical Islam. He is completing a book on the international challenges America faces in the 21st century.



When thousands of Muslims become refugees, then you can’t get the media to shut up about it for weeks. Thousands of Muslim migrants invading Burma became “refugees” and the media has spent the better part of a year ranting about how evil the Buddhists are.

But when Muslim terrorists attack a Christian city creating tens of thousands of refugees, you couldn’t pay the media to cover the story, whether it’s in Syria, Egypt or closer to home in the Philippines.

Philippine troops have started to battle their way into coastal villages in the south where Muslim rebels have held scores of residents hostage in a six-day standoff, sparking fierce clashes that have killed 56 people and displaced more than 60,000, officials said Saturday.

President Benigno Aquino III said more firefights were expected but assured more than 62,000 displaced villagers being sheltered at a sports complex in Zamboanga city that the rebels’ capability to sow trouble has been degraded and the government was working to end the crisis soon.

Zamboanga is the 6th largest city in the country and 3/4 Christian and an obvious target for the MNLF Muslim terrorists (who are of course denying responsibility and blaming a rogue leader). It’s an obvious target because of its central influence in Mindanao. It’s the city that Muslims want. And it’s likely that the MNLF is finding shelter in the Muslim parts of the city.



More on LINK (http://www.frontpagemag.com/2013/dgreenfield/media-silent-as-muslims-ethnically-cleanse-60000-christians-in-philippines/).

Reposted on SHARIA UNVEILED (http://shariaunveiled.wordpress.com/2013/09/16/media-silent-as-muslims-ethnically-cleanse-60000-christians-in-philippines/) with youtube video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIX2OhbotT8).
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: jollyjacktar on July 12, 2014, 21:41:33
Interesting comments out of Australia.  Sound familiar?


Link to short version, with disclaimer above. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3CSC4zTWW0)

LINK to full version. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjcfoD2mzeQ)
Familiar enough to make my blood boil.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: E.R. Campbell on July 24, 2014, 14:16:40
Some good new from a suburban Toronto courtroom (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/toronto-man-allegedly-set-to-become-a-terror-tourist-sentenced-to-10-years-in-jail/article19740872/#dashboard/follows/): "Mohamed Hersi, a Toronto man convicted of trying to travel overseas to join a terrorist group, was sentenced Thursday morning ... to 10 years in prison – the maximum penalty for the charges he faced."
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: jollyjacktar on July 24, 2014, 17:15:41
Excellent, but not long enough to suit me.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Fishbone Jones on August 05, 2014, 23:16:52
A cut and paste from an email I received.

Subject: Dutch Orchestra Walks Out..!!

Dutch Orchestral Concert  Friday, 09 May, 2014 !

Queen Beatrix of Holland attends an Orchestral Concert.  The Conductor, who just happens to be Muslim, proceeds to give the Queen a lecture on the "beauty" of Islam.

The members of the Orchestra stage a walkout!
 
Interestingly this did not make the news in Canada or the USA.

http://www.safeshare.tv/w/cqjiYhtiXs
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: S.M.A. on August 11, 2014, 14:58:55
Canadian Press (http://news.ca.msn.com/canada/court-rules-terrorism-suspect-can-be-extradited)

Quote
Updated: Mon, 11 Aug 2014 09:51:45 GMT | By The Canadian Press, thecanadianpress.com
Court rules terrorism suspect can be extradited

EDMONTON - The Alberta Court of Appeal has ruled that an Alberta man should be extradited to the United States to face terrorism and murder charges.

Sayfildin Tahir Sharif is accused of murder and supporting a terrorist group that took part in suicide bombings in his native Iraq.

The Americans allege Sharif worked from Edmonton to help a Tunisian man enter Iraq in 2009 and detonate a truck filled with explosives at a military checkpoint, killing five U.S. soldiers.

Prosecutors contend that evidence from intercepted Internet and phone conversations shows that Sharif was directly involved in supporting Tunisian terrorists, who conducted the suicide bombing, by helping them make contact with other supporters as they made their way across the Middle East to Iraq.

(...EDITED)

Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: jollyjacktar on August 11, 2014, 19:01:43
Good riddance.  Hope they see it through to the final escort to the nearest portal.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Colin P on August 12, 2014, 11:15:10
A cut and paste from an email I received.

Subject: Dutch Orchestra Walks Out..!!

Dutch Orchestral Concert  Friday, 09 May, 2014 !

Queen Beatrix of Holland attends an Orchestral Concert.  The Conductor, who just happens to be Muslim, proceeds to give the Queen a lecture on the "beauty" of Islam.

The members of the Orchestra stage a walkout!
 
Interestingly this did not make the news in Canada or the USA.

http://www.safeshare.tv/w/cqjiYhtiXs

any idea on the "requests" he made?
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Fishbone Jones on August 12, 2014, 11:27:27
Sorry Colin, no idea.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: milnews.ca on August 12, 2014, 12:25:23
any idea on the "requests" he made?
To join Islam.

And it wasn't the conductor, (http://islamineurope.blogspot.ca/2011/09/amsterdam-muslim-interrupts-concert.html) but some guy who took to the stage and known to police "disrupting meetings and "making a confused impression." "  Incident happened in 2011. (http://www.at5.nl/artikelen/67650/moslim-zaait-paniek-in-aanwezigheid-koningin) (original in Dutch)
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: jollyjacktar on August 15, 2014, 21:18:45
Oh dear, such a tragic turn of events...  >:D

Farah Mohamed Shirdon of Calgary, fighting for ISIS, dead in Iraq, reports say (http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/farah-mohamed-shirdon-of-calgary-fighting-for-isis-dead-in-iraq-reports-say-1.2737749)
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: X_para76 on August 15, 2014, 21:29:26
Oh dear, such a tragic turn of events...  >:D

Farah Mohamed Shirdon of Calgary, fighting for ISIS, dead in Iraq, reports say (http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/farah-mohamed-shirdon-of-calgary-fighting-for-isis-dead-in-iraq-reports-say-1.2737749)

Oh, that's a shame.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Hamish Seggie on August 16, 2014, 01:46:54
Oh, that's a shame.

Why yes....yes it is. Poor misunderstood young lad....
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: S.M.A. on August 23, 2014, 11:47:59
One should include all those Somali-Canadians who went to fight for Al-Shabab among those mentioned below:

 :o

Defense News (http://www.defensenews.com/article/20140822/DEFREG04/308220023/Armed-Passports-Fighters-Could-Threaten-US)

Quote
Armed With Passports, IS Fighters Could Threaten US
Aug. 22, 2014 - 09:54AM   |   By RICK HAMPSON

  After U.S. planes bombed its forces in Iraq, the jihadist juggernaut that calls itself the Islamic State threatened to attack Americans "in any place,'' adding for good measure: "We will drown all of you in blood.''

For now, facing a multi-front war and bombs falling on their fighters' heads, the Islamic State's leaders probably lack the time and opportunity to plot a strike on the U.S. homeland.

That could change if thousands of fighters with Western passports return home, terrorism analysts warn.

(...EDITED)

Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Old Sweat on August 28, 2014, 11:17:49
In the local boy makes good department (I live in Kemptville) here is a story in today's Ottawa Citizen reproduced under the fair dealing provisions of the Copyright Act about our local Jimmy Jihad:

Jihadi from Kemptville and Ottawa was smart, funny and 'ambitious', friends say

SARAH BOESVELD
Published on: August 28, 2014Last Updated: August 28, 2014 9:52 AM EDT

Before he felt the pull of Syria’s Islamic extremists, before he started going by the name Yahya, and before he found his self-described “opportunity for martyrdom,” John Maguire was just another Kemptville teenager whose sharp wit sometimes got him into trouble.

Former classmate Evan Massey remembers being kicked out of class with Maguire — known to his peers as “JMag” — who teased him when he struggled to read something aloud during Grade 11 English.

In the halls and classrooms of North Grenville District High School, Maguire was far from the strident, opinionated loner those who knew him later in life describe: He was smart, funny and sarcastic.

He and a friend would routinely read the morning announcements over the school’s intercom, throwing in a few inappropriate inside jokes and calling out the principal for not standing up during O Canada. He was involved in student council. He got 80s on his report card.

But he also played his cards close to his chest. “He kept to himself about a lot of things that were either important or things that bugged him,” Massey remembered. His parents divorced when he was in his early teens, when his love for punk rock flourished.

The young man pushed boundaries, but also laughed about those who pushed too far.

“The really punk thing to say was ‘Anarchy, maaaan,'” Massey remembered. “He would make fun of that almost on the daily.”

But when their senior year began, “JMag” was nowhere to be seen. He just disappeared.

Few who’d gone to school with him heard anything about him until this week when Postmedia News reported the RCMP was investigating his presence in Syria.


But his path there had many stops since Kemptville: In Grade 12 he was living with his grandparents and attending Hillcrest High School in Alta Vista. Then, it was off to Los Angeles.

When he returned, friends noticed a Facebook status update announcing his conversion to Islam. He began studies at the University of Ottawa before buying a one-way ticket to Syria in January 2013.

The ideology Maguire expressed on social media is aligned with the Islamic State of Iraq & Al-Sham (ISIS), which a new UN Human Rights Council report, released Wednesday, accused of carrying out public executions — typically beheadings — to terrorize populations under their control. ISIS is also the extremist group that released the video of American journalist James Foley’s beheading.

Maguire was always an “out of the box” thinker and “strong-willed intellectually,” said one source who knew him in high school.

“Maybe it does kind of make sense that if he fell into that world, he’d go full blast into it.”

But to friend Luke Lavictoire, that intelligence and intensity usually came in the form of fervent researching to decide for himself whether he wanted to take up a cause or jump on a bandwagon.

“He definitely asks a lot of questions. He’s not a dumb kid, and for someone to misguide him or mislead him, he wouldn’t say ‘yes’ to anything,” Lavictoire said. “He would make sure he had all of the answers before doing something drastic.”

He remembers his friend as “ambitious.”

“He wanted to do something with his life, for sure,” Lavictoire said. “I still can’t believe this is him.”

A close friend from high school, who asked not to be identified, said he always expected Maguire to do “great things, which is why I was saddened to hear about his recent inclinations toward radical extremism,” he wrote in a Facebook message to Postmedia.

“Everything that I hear about him now is honestly nothing like the JMag we knew, and from the time we spent jammin’ in high school, or hanging out on the weekend, I never noticed any behaviour that would have fostered that sort of hatred towards any religious or social groups.”

Maguire loved hockey perhaps even more than punk rock, the friend said. Eventually he took more of a shine to 1990s dance and hip hop music — particularly the band 2 Unlimited and Marky Mark and the Funky Bunch, but would still pick up a guitar and play classic rock or punk.

On his Facebook account, disabled after a reporter reached out, Maguire said, “evil is very prominent in Canadian culture, homosexuality, fornication and adultery are generally accepted, drugs and alcohol are easily accessible and widely accepted as being ‘normal,’ women and men are often not properly covered, music is widespread in public places.”

Maguire was “straight edge” in high school, Massey and Lavictoire recall — never touching alcohol or drugs, but certainly playing music in public. He was the one who started The Shackles, Massey said, inviting the young bass player to join. They played a few shows in the basement of the church, where Massey is now a pastor, and he remembers his friend having questions about faith.

“He definitely didn’t know anything about God,” he said.

At a diner in Ottawa two weeks ago, Massey was talking with an old high school friend about former classmates, when Maguire’s name came up. (Maguire had long ago unfriended Massey from Facebook.)

“He’s gotten into being a Muslim pretty hard,” Massey recalled his friend saying.

For his part, Lavictoire wishes he could have helped “JMag” sooner.

“There are tons of things I could sit down and say, but I don’t know if he’ll get out alive,” he said.

“It sounds like he’s on a one-way street right now.”
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: jollyjacktar on August 28, 2014, 11:57:45
Another one I don't want to see return to these shores.  Good riddance.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Transporter on August 28, 2014, 14:06:13
If you leave this country to go fight in another, your whole immediate family (parents, siblings, spouse, children) should be subject to deportation. I'm betting this would make most, if not all of them, think twice.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: S.M.A. on August 28, 2014, 14:18:20
If you leave this country to go fight in another, your whole immediate family (parents, siblings, spouse, children) should be subject to deportation. I'm betting this would make most, if not all of them, think twice.

How would that work in the case where the siblings were born here? As in the case of Omar Khadr and Zaynab Khadr (his vitriolic sister)? Strip them of citizenship anyway?
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Transporter on August 28, 2014, 14:43:29
How would that work in the case where the siblings were born here? As in the case of Omar Khadr and Zaynab Khadr (his vitriolic sister)? Strip them of citizenship anyway?

There's probably no practical way of making it work in many cases, but it sure felt good saying it. :-)
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: George Wallace on August 28, 2014, 14:43:46
How would that work in the case where the siblings were born here? As in the case of Omar Khadr and Zaynab Khadr (his vitriolic sister)? Strip them of citizenship anyway?

It can and has been done.  http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/06/15/i-cant-be-stateless-born-in-canada-criminal-fighting-deportation-after-ottawa-decides-citizenship-not-valid/
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: jollyjacktar on August 28, 2014, 18:57:37
How would that work in the case where the siblings were born here? As in the case of Omar Khadr and Zaynab Khadr (his vitriolic sister)? Strip them of citizenship anyway?
If there's a will, there's a way, so it is said.  (if only, if only)
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: George Wallace on August 28, 2014, 21:47:25
Now this is scary and coming to a city near you:

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10203966306293667

Currently in the UK and spreading.  We have already seen calls for Sharia Law in Ontario in the past. 
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Hamish Seggie on August 28, 2014, 22:16:45
If Dalton McGinty told them to pound salt, I'd venture to guess PM Harper would tell them the same thing.


I know what I would tell them.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: GAP on August 28, 2014, 22:20:13
If Dalton McGinty told them to pound salt, I'd venture to guess PM Harper would tell them the same thing.
I know what I would tell them.

If I remember correctly the Ontario government seriously considered allowing it until the public outcry put paid to it.....
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Hamish Seggie on August 28, 2014, 22:29:19
If I remember correctly the Ontario government seriously considered allowing it until the public outcry put paid to it.....

That could be and I would imagine - hope - that the Canadian public would scream bloody murder.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: E.R. Campbell on August 28, 2014, 22:34:57
In fact, as I recall (and I'm happy to be corrected), the Gov't of Ontario took away some longstanding Jewish religious court rights privileges, dealing with family law, to soften the blow, as it were. In the process they did the right thing: the Canadian civil law applies to everyone, equally, regardless of race or creed ~ no religious body (e.g. a rabbinical court) has any special status.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: AmmoTech90 on August 29, 2014, 00:13:23
If you leave this country to go fight in another, your whole immediate family (parents, siblings, spouse, children) should be subject to deportation. I'm betting this would make most, if not all of them, think twice.

And in the case of a third generation Scottish/Irish/English/French/Ukrainian citizen, or a Native that become a jihadi fighter?  Same solution?  Or does that only apply to immigrants? Second generation?  At what point do you consider someone to be a real citizen rather than one whose actions can result in the entire family being punished by the state? Where do send them?  If a citizen leaves to fight for a group like ISIS is that the same as joining the French Foreign Legion?  Who makes the call?  Half my troop in Afghanistan were Commonwealth soldiers in the British Army, being lead by a Canadian Forces member, under your idea they (and possibly me) would be stateless.

I  never viewed Canada as a country that exported its problems.  Canadian society and culture has failed the citizen who goes to join ISIS.  It, we, have failed to educate, instruct, and inculcate that person with our values, ethics, and ethos.  Possibly, in some cases, society and the health care system failed to identify and/or effectively treat someone with mental health problems.  None of those shortcomings would be solved by somehow convincing another country to accept our foreign fighters.

Edit: To add, the above statements only apply to those who are legally and properly citizens.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: E.R. Campbell on August 29, 2014, 06:27:04
And in the case of a third generation Scottish/Irish/English/French/Ukrainian citizen, or a Native that become a jihadi fighter?  Same solution?  Or does that only apply to immigrants? Second generation?  At what point do you consider someone to be a real citizen rather than one whose actions can result in the entire family being punished by the state? Where do send them?  If a citizen leaves to fight for a group like ISIS is that the same as joining the French Foreign Legion?  Who makes the call?  Half my troop in Afghanistan were Commonwealth soldiers in the British Army, being lead by a Canadian Forces member, under your idea they (and possibly me) would be stateless.

I  never viewed Canada as a country that exported its problems.  Canadian society and culture has failed the citizen who goes to join ISIS.  It, we, have failed to educate, instruct, and inculcate that person with our values, ethics, and ethos.  Possibly, in some cases, society and the health care system failed to identify and/or effectively treat someone with mental health problems.  None of those shortcomings would be solved by somehow convincing another country to accept our foreign fighters.

Edit: To add, the above statements only apply to those who are legally and properly citizens.


I agree, especially with the highlighted bit.

We have replaced a solid education (in classrooms and by example) in the virtues and values of our liberal, secular, democratic and capitalist culture with "rah-rah" flag waving patriotism and the weak tea of mulitculuralism.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: S.M.A. on August 29, 2014, 11:07:06
The British government taking precautions concurrent with its involvement in Iraq (http://army.ca/forums/index.php/topic,64325.msg1323940.html#msg1323940)...

Business Insider (https://ca.finance.yahoo.com/news/uk-raises-terror-threat-level-131307359.html)

Quote
UK Raises Terror Threat Level To 'Severe'
Business Insider
By Brett LoGiurato – 50 minutes ago


Britain's Prime Minister David Cameron (C) and Home Secretary Theresa May (3rd R) speak to Police Sergeant Gerry Harrison (R), during a visit to look at new community police crime prevention initiatives, including targeted CCTV and a new PC based mobile device, in Cheshunt, southern England July 17, 2013.

Britain's government has raised the country's terror threat level to "severe,"  Home Secretary Theresa May said Friday.

It's the fourth-highest of five potential threat levels. According to the U.K. government, it means an attack is "highly likely." But there is no intelligence to suggest an attack is imminent.

May said the threat level was raised in general because of the deteriorating situation in Iraq and Syria, where extremist militants from the group calling itself the Islamic State (also ISIS or ISIL). May said, however, that there was no specific threat to Britain that caused the raise in the terror level.

(...EDITED)

Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: jollyjacktar on August 29, 2014, 11:12:55
Many of these radicals are well known to the authorties in the UK.  If they cannot be deported because they are "citizens", perhaps they need to bring back internment camps for the radicals. 
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: S.M.A. on August 29, 2014, 16:47:46
Perhaps another reason for the increased terror alert in the UK:

Quote
Seized ISIS Laptop In Syria Contains Plans For 'Bubonic Plague' Weapons

By Tom Porter, IBTimes UK
on August 29 2014 11:45 AM
International Business Times (http://www.ibtimes.com/seized-isis-laptop-syria-contains-plans-bubonic-plague-weapons-1673638)

A laptop allegedly seized from an ISIS (also known as Islamic State) base in Syria contains plans to launch devastating terror attacks harnessing the bubonic plague.


Discovered by a moderate rebel group from an IS base in Idlib, northern Syria, in January, the computer belonged to a Tunisian militant and also contains instructions on how to build explosives, use disguises to travel undetected, and plans to build chemical weapons.

The advantage of biological weapons is that they do not cost a lot of money, while the human casualties can be huge," a document retrieved from the computer stated.

(...EDITED)

Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: jollyjacktar on August 29, 2014, 20:12:01
Wasn't there a group in N Africa a couple of years ago that were playing around with weaponizing the plauge and it got away from them?  Maybe these turds have got their crap together.  But don't health authorities have a grip on dealing with things like plague?  After all it's not the dark ages, well maybe it is in ISISville.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Transporter on August 29, 2014, 21:21:29
And in the case of a third generation Scottish/Irish/English/French/Ukrainian citizen, or a Native that become a jihadi fighter?  Same solution?  Or does that only apply to immigrants? Second generation?  At what point do you consider someone to be a real citizen rather than one whose actions can result in the entire family being punished by the state? Where do send them?  If a citizen leaves to fight for a group like ISIS is that the same as joining the French Foreign Legion?  Who makes the call?  Half my troop in Afghanistan were Commonwealth soldiers in the British Army, being lead by a Canadian Forces member, under your idea they (and possibly me) would be stateless.

I  never viewed Canada as a country that exported its problems.  Canadian society and culture has failed the citizen who goes to join ISIS.  It, we, have failed to educate, instruct, and inculcate that person with our values, ethics, and ethos.  Possibly, in some cases, society and the health care system failed to identify and/or effectively treat someone with mental health problems.  None of those shortcomings would be solved by somehow convincing another country to accept our foreign fighters.

Edit: To add, the above statements only apply to those who are legally and properly citizens.

You probably should have read my post after the one you just quoted.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: George Wallace on August 29, 2014, 22:23:17
Wasn't there a group in N Africa a couple of years ago that were playing around with weaponizing the plauge and it got away from them?  Maybe these turds have got their crap together.  But don't health authorities have a grip on dealing with things like plague?  After all it's not the dark ages, well maybe it is in ISISville.



Hmmmmm?  Ebola?


Maybe that is the solution.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: George Wallace on August 29, 2014, 22:25:59
Norway is thinking of doing this:

Norway 'to Make Citizens Fighting for Isis Stateless' (http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/norway-make-citizens-fighting-isis-stateless-1462776?utm_medium=social)

Quote
Norway 'to Make Citizens Fighting for Isis Stateless'
By Gianluca Mezzofiore
August 27, 2014 11:17 BST

The Norwegian government has announced that it is considering revoking citizenship from individuals taking part in terrorist activities and wars in the Middle East.

Minister of children and equality Solveig Horne said that "this is a strong signal to people wanting to take part in terror operations and wars", according to TNB news site.

"We will turn over every stone to find the necessary measures to prevent radicalisation and extremism," she continued. "We will begin discussion about introducing regulations on revocation for any citizen causing serious damage to vital government interests or who has volunteered to serve in foreign military services."

The government is worried about Norwegian citizens who travel to Syria and Iraq to join the jihadists of Isis (known as the Islamic State). In May, a 25-year-old from Oslo, Egzon Avdyli, was reported to have been killed in Syria where he had been fighting for Isis.

The former leader of the Prophet's Ummah, a Norwegian Islamist Group, celebrated Avdyli's death on Facebook.

Norwegian intelligence said in its 2014 report that an estimated 40 to 50 Norwegians were thought to have fought in Syria with extremist groups like Isis and the al-Qaeda-linked al-Nusra front.

Jihadists returning to the Scandinavian country are considered the most dangerous terror threat to the country, according to a report in Aftenposten.

At least 100 Scandinavians are believed to have gone to Syria for jihad.

The debate over stripping Islamist militants of citizenship is also taking place in other European countries such as Britain.

The coalition government has come under pressure to impose tougher penalties on terrorists fighting in the Middle East. George Carey, the former archbishop of Canterbury, said jihadists should be stripped of their British passports and barred from returning to the UK.

His sentiments were echoed by David Davis, the Conservative backbencher. He said: "Lawyers would say you cannot render someone stateless. Perhaps, perhaps not," said Davis. "Whitehall lawyers have been wrong before. Democracies have a right to defend themselves."

The home secretary Theresa May said she already can remove citizenship from extremists with dual nationality. Naturalised Britons can also lose their passport according to a recently approved legislation.

But she warned she could not strip people born in Britain of their citizenship because it is illegal "for any country to make its citizens stateless".

The UK has ratified the 1954 UN Convention on Stateless Persons and the 1961 UN Convention on the Reduction of Statelessness which forbid governments to make their citizens stateless.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: GAP on August 29, 2014, 22:27:23
The biggest problem with this  Ebola epidemic is the outright lies by leaders, disbelief and superstition on the part of the people....they are their own worst enemy.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Brad Sallows on August 29, 2014, 23:50:29
>It, we, have failed to educate, instruct, and inculcate that person with our values, ethics, and ethos.

"We" haven't failed; the bovine anti-establishmentarians who disregard the consequences of whatever they currently wish to tear down have not really torn down very much yet.  These are simply horses which refuse to drink the water that has been placed in front of them.

If a person leaves Canada to fight for another country, that's his burden, subject to one caveat: if he leaves Canada to fight against Canada, we should kill, incapacitate, or capture him.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: jollyjacktar on August 30, 2014, 02:17:23
Norway is thinking of doing this:

Norway 'to Make Citizens Fighting for Isis Stateless' (http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/norway-make-citizens-fighting-isis-stateless-1462776?utm_medium=social)
I like it.  Let's start with "that family".
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: BorisK on August 30, 2014, 09:41:02

I like it.  Let's start with "that family".

Random shot in the dark here, but just for fun I'm going to take a guess : Khadr family is whom you are referring to?
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Thucydides on August 31, 2014, 13:29:24
More on AmmoTech90's point. Because these people bring their "culture" and refuse to assimilate into the liberal, democratic, free market culture of the West. (The fact that our own "elites" in the media, academia and politics also seem to have rejected this culture is an issue for a different thread). The shameful culture of domestic abuse is alive and well in the UK (and by extension possibly everywhere there are large, unassimilated pockets of these cultures in the West):

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/aug/29/-sp-untold-story-culture-of-shame-ruzwana-bashir

Quote
The untold story of how a culture of shame perpetuates abuse. I know, I was a victim
The extraordinary story of Ruzwana Bashir: the Oxford-educated entrepreneur brought up in a British-Pakistani community shares her own story to tear down the wall of silence around the exploitation of Asian girls
Ruzwana Bashir

A decade after leaving her home town of Skipton, Ruzwana Bashir finally felt able to return and testify against her abuser. Photograph: Kevin Abosch
Ruzwana Bashir
Friday 29 August 2014 17.49 BST

It was with a lump in my throat and tears in my eyes that I read about the horrific cases of abuse and neglect revealed in the Rotherham report this week.

Much of the media coverage has focused on how men of mostly Asian descent preyed on vulnerable young white victims. The details of this abuse are awful. But what has largely been ignored is the report’s finding that sexual abuse has been systemically under-reported among Asian girls due to deeply entrenched cultural taboos – obscuring the reality that there is a similarly rampant problem of minority girls being abused by members of their own community.

I have first-hand knowledge of this problem. I’m coming forward to publicly share my own story in the hope that I can encourage others to do the same and help tear down the wall of silence that perpetuates further abuse.

I grew up in a small community of a few hundred British-Pakistanis in Skipton, less than 60 miles from Rotherham. When I was 10 a neighbour started sexually abusing me. Paralysed by shame, I said nothing.

At 18 I was fortunate enough to receive an offer to study at Oxford University. I was enthralled with the exciting new world around me and tried desperately to fit in. I replaced my traditional shalwar kameez with jeans. I bared my shoulders and cut my hair. I socialised more than I studied and became president of the Oxford Union.

An internship at Goldman Sachs led to a job in private equity in London, and after a few years I moved to the US to get my MBA from Harvard Business School. But all the while, I knew the girls I had grown up with didn’t have the same opportunities – and that my abuser was probably still preying on other children.

It was only after a decade away from Skipton that I was finally able to garner the courage to return and testify against my abuser. When I first told my mother about the abuse I’d suffered, she was absolutely devastated. The root of her anger was clear: I was heaping unbound shame on to my family by trying to bring the perpetrator to justice. In trying to stop him from exploiting more children, I was ensuring my parents and my siblings would be ostracised. She begged me not to go to the police station.

If I’d still been living in Skipton, surrounded by a community who would either blame me for the abuse or label me a liar, I’m not sure I could have rejected her demands.

Once the police began the investigation another victim came forward. Sohail described how he too had been abused almost 20 years before I was. Due to our combined testimony, the perpetrator was jailed for eight years.

Within a few weeks another young woman in the community, emboldened by the conviction, told the police that a relative had raped her for several years. It had started before Sara was in her teens. We have supported her through the process of taking this to court.

Although Sohail and I had removed a proven paedophile from the community and helped empower another woman to end her torture, we were not celebrated. On the contrary, we were shunned.

The Rotherham report cites a home affairs select committee finding that cases of Asian men grooming Asian girls did not come to light in Rotherham because victims “are often alienated and ostracised by their own families and by the whole community, if they go public with allegations of abuse”.

This was our experience exactly – and the experience of everyone I’ve since spoken to. In each situation, victims and their families faced tremendous pressure to drop their cases.

During our investigation it became clear that for three decades many other women had suffered at the hands of our abuser, but they had refused to testify against him because of the indelible stigma it would bring. I learned that the parents of at least one of the victims had known their child had been abused but had done nothing. We also discovered that the larger community had long been aware of rumours of abuse by my neighbour but had chosen to ignore them – even when Sohail had attempted to come forward several years earlier.

This refusal to condemn perpetrators persists even after their conviction. Soon after our case, another convicted sex offender was released back into our community and was accepted as if nothing had happened. It was clear that the same would happen with our abuser.

Much has been made about the religious background of the offenders in the Rotherham report. But this problem isn’t about religion race: it’s about a culture where notions of shame result in the blaming of victims rather than perpetrators.

Although painful to read, the Rotherham report presents an opportunity. It’s an opportunity for leaders in the British-Pakistani community to stand up and speak out about the sexual and physical abuse in their midst. The Asian community isn’t unique in having evil-doers, and the overwhelming majority of its men and women are good people who care about protecting others.

I am and always will be proud of my Pakistani heritage, but I firmly believe community leaders must take responsibility for the fact that the taboos that prevent others from identifying perpetrators and supporting victims enable further abuse. And those taboos must be challenged.

The report also presents an opportunity to overhaul the public institutions that have failed in their responsibility to protect the defenceless – which includes everyone from the police to schools to social services.

On multiple occasions, beginning when she was 12, Sara went to her local GP and to walk-in clinics wearing her hijab to get the morning-after pill. She was never asked if she needed help. When she approached the police to share her story the CPS initially told her it would not pursue the case because there was too little evidence. It’s a testament to her resolve that she pushed back, demanding a chance to seek justice.

The system failed her, just as it has thousands of other children of all backgrounds.

We now have the chance to change that, and there are four immediate steps we should take to address this problem.

First, we need better training of social workers and police to effectively identify victims. The Rotherham report cited that one of the reasons for the widespread under-reporting of abuse among minority communities was the authorities’ focus on communicating with male leaders, who ignored the problem. Women and girls need to be included in these conversations, and government officials need to broaden the scope of their inquiries.

Second, we need mandatory reporting by people of authority when they signs of potential sexual abuse. One of the most damning parts of the Rotherham report was that schoolteachers were discouraged from reporting potential cases. For Sara, mandatory reporting by doctors serving young children could have saved her years of abuse.

Third, we need improved support for victims when they come forward. Sara’s case has been drawn out for far longer than expected, during which time she has faced pressure to withdraw her testimony. She has been passed from one counsellor to another, and struggled to get the help she needs to overcome her trauma. We need a judicial process that recognises the cost of delayed prosecutions for victims and better counselling services.

Fourth, we need a single person in each community who is accountable for ensuring these and other relevant policies are implemented. There are a lot of people with partial responsibility for this problem, but for this to be an effective, coordinated, comprehensive response, we need one individual who takes full responsibility for ensuring child sex exploitation is addressed and who can be held accountable for real change.

Some of these policies are already being implemented. But they are not being implemented everywhere, and they are not being implemented quickly enough.

The biggest risk of this terrible situation is that once the shock of this report dissipates, it will get swept under the rug, just like three previous reports in Rotherham. We cannot let that happen. We don’t need any further reports: we need system-wide change in the way we approach fighting sexual abuse against children of all backgrounds. This is not a problem in Rotherham or a problem in Oxford or a problem in Rochdale. This is a problem in the United Kingdom. And we need to tackle it together.

In the words of Edmund Burke, “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good [people] to do nothing.” Let’s not be those people.

Some names have been changed to protect anonymity.

Ruzwana Bashir is co-founder and CEO of Peek.com, the one-stop shop to discover and book activities. She previously worked at Gilt Groupe, Blackstone and Goldman Sachs. She has an MBA from Harvard Business School where she was a Fulbright scholar, and a BA from Oxford where she was president of the Oxford Union.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: S.M.A. on September 01, 2014, 18:13:40
The British show they are willing to go the distance to stop terrorism.

Military.com (http://www.military.com/daily-news/2014/09/01/uk-passports-could-be-seized-in-new-terror-laws.html?comp=7000023317843&rank=5)

Quote
UK: Passports Could Be Seized in New Terror Laws

Associated Press | Sep 01, 2014 | by Sylvia Hui
LONDON -- Prime Minister David Cameron on Monday proposed new laws that would give police the power to seize the passports of Britons suspected of having traveled abroad to fight with terrorist groups.

Speaking to Parliament, Cameron said his government is also working on plans to block such suspected British jihadi fighters from re-entering the U.K. The power to monitor such suspects who are already in Britain would also be strengthened.

The plans to widen Britain's anti-terror laws, which are likely to be approved by parliament, are aimed at preventing attacks by Islamist militants returning from terror training in trouble spots in the Middle East.


(...EDITED)

Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: jollyjacktar on September 01, 2014, 21:30:50
Hope we grow some balls like that too.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: ModlrMike on September 01, 2014, 21:46:48
Any legislation we tried to enact on that front would quickly be the subject of a Supreme Court challenge.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: GAP on September 01, 2014, 21:52:44
Any legislation we tried to enact on that front would quickly be the subject of a Supreme Court challenge.

That's ok. Parliament creates the laws, the courts interpret them in relation to the charter. So, dot all the i's and cross all the t's, fill in all the squares to limit the misinterpretation of the law..... :2c:
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Hamish Seggie on September 01, 2014, 23:58:14
That's ok. Parliament creates the laws, the courts interpret them in relation to the charter. So, dot all the i's and cross all the t's, fill in all the squares to limit the misinterpretation of the law..... :2c:

Then when the terrorists lawyers and Supreme Court strike the law down, invoke :


NOT WITH STANDING CLAUSE - in other words SCOC - we don't give a crap what your interpretation is, we're doing it our way

FJAG needs to weigh in on this.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: GAP on September 02, 2014, 07:32:45
I suspect that some sort of legislation will come about, either through changing existing laws or creating new ones, but it will be a weak sister effort, just enough to get past the 2015 election.

Playing to the masses man, playing to the masses.....
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: S.M.A. on September 03, 2014, 21:08:22
Another nut who should be stripped of her UK passport...

Source: Agence-France Presse (http://news.yahoo.com/british-jihadist-mum-threatens-behead-christians-reports-113331874.html)

Quote
British 'jihadist' mum threatens to behead Christians: reports

London (AFP) - A middle-aged British mother-of-two and former rock band member has joined jihadists in Syria and wants to behead Christians with a "blunt knife", British media reported.

The reports identified the woman as Sally Jones, 45, from Kent in southeast England, and said she now goes by the name Sakinah Hussain, or Umm Hussain al-Britani.

Security experts estimate that hundreds of Britons have gone to the Middle East to join the Islamic State (IS) militant group, the most brutal to emerge out of Syria's bloody civil war and the most successful.

(...EDITED)

Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: George Wallace on September 03, 2014, 21:16:41
Another nut who should be stripped of her UK passport...

Source: Agence-France Presse (http://news.yahoo.com/british-jihadist-mum-threatens-behead-christians-reports-113331874.html)

If the new laws pass....she could be.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: S.M.A. on September 05, 2014, 12:03:42
Just a look at one case among many of failed integration across Europe:

Business Insider via Yahoo News (https://ca.finance.yahoo.com/news/why-many-jihadists-come-belgium-133809593.html)

Quote
Why So Many Jihadists Come From Belgium
Business Insider
By Ben Winsor – 1 hour 21 minutes ago

AP / Thierry Charlier
A group wearing T-shirts reading "Stop Islamization" protest during a demonstration in Brussels on Sept. 11, 2007, regarding what some believe as the Islamization of Europe.
As more than a thousand Westerners have joined the conflict in Iraq and Syria, the most per-capita have come from Belgium,  according to  an analysis by Business Insider .

Between  250  and  400  jihadists in the area are thought to have come from the small European nation, which has a population of 11 million.

Although the trend may seem surprising from a highly developed state known for waffles and EU bureaucracy, a closer look at Belgium's fractured society shows this may have been a long time coming.

Failed Integration

Muslim immigrants are not well integrated into Belgian society d espite decades of immigration there from countries like Tunisia, Morocco, Turkey, and Algeria.

While Muslim Belgians make up only 4% to 6% of the country’s population, some politicians say their very presence threatens the Belgian way of life.


(...EDITED)

In 2013, the Minister for Integration and current leader of the Flemish government, Geert Bourgeois, spoke about a report showing that less than a third of young Muslims felt accepted by Flemish society.

"That so many young people are discriminated against or feel rejected means we have a lot of work to do as a society," he said, " but another way of looking at it could be that we think young Muslims do not belong to because they do not want to belong."

With a population so divided, Belgian Muslims tend to live in close-knit communities with seperate social circles. Without integration, radical groups can take root.

Belgium is home to the banned extremist Salafist group, Sharia4Belgium, which remains active underground. The group supports ISIS and is accused  of recruiting fighters for the war in Syria.

(...EDITED)

Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: E.R. Campbell on September 05, 2014, 12:49:23
Quote
Muslim immigrants are not well integrated into Belgian society d espite decades of immigration there from countries like Tunisia, Morocco, Turkey, and Algeria.

While Muslim Belgians make up only 4% to 6% of the country’s population, some politicians say their very presence threatens the Belgian way of life.


Some, too many, Muslims have difficulty integrating into any Western society. Most of the ones I know do not have that problem, but they came here for a change, they wanted something that Iraq, Syria, Egypt and so on did not and could not offer: personal liberty. Islam 'offers' a complete socio-economic and political "solution" but many people do not want that.

          (Anecdote: My friend Sabah (BEng in Iraq, MEng in UK, PhD in Canada) is a wholly secular man, he goes to Mosque a few times a year; he raised his daughters to be 'free thinking,' independent Canadians.
          When a junior engineer, Reema, joined our group she was still a "good" Muslim. Sabah told her, quietly, privately, that there is nothing in the Qur'an that requires her to wear a veil. "Modesty," he told me he explained
          to her, "is a state of conduct, not dress." Reema, gradually, became less visibly "Muslim" and, it seemed to me, happier. When she married she told me that she explained to her new husband that she was still a good,
          believing Muslim but she refused to cater to foreign, 19th century social customs in the 21st century Canada. At my retirement party she thanked me for being part of a "team" that helped her "grow." I know she was
          talking mostly about Sabah's influence. Both Sabah and Reema are fully 'integrated' Canadians who happen to be Muslims.)

Too many Muslims, especially refugees, are neither socially nor culturally 'ready' to integrate into Western society. (That is just one of the reasons our refugee programme is broken.)




 
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: cryco on September 05, 2014, 13:38:07
This problem has always existed with other immigrants as well, it's just very visible with Muslims.
When my parents immigrated to Canada in the late 60s, they stuck with the Greek community and had almost no dealings with the outside world. My dad worked in restaurants so he did deal with anglophones and francophones, but do you know we had 1 family in our outer circle that was not Greek? jJust one!  We lived surrounded by Greeks for the first 20 years of my life. We resisted integration for 2 decades at least.
My circle was exclusively Greek friends except for one Japanese guy that we considered an honorary Greek. Only when I was in university did i start to hang out with non-greeks and that was only for projects and papers.
Until i was 26ish, I would say I was Greek Canadian, not Canadian, and would love to move to Greece and had started planning for it.
Now (and for the last 10 years at least) I proudly say I'm Canadian and would fight to defend the greatest nation in the world. I never left, and will probably never leave here. I'm married to a francophone and my kids speak English and french, with just a bit of Greek thrown in. One of the most beautiful things that happened to me was when my son was learning the Canadian anthem in pre-k and asked me to sing with him. hell I cried back in 2006 when the oilers where playing in the playoffs and the crowd took over the anthem. I was standing and signing with pride.
So imagine, if a white christian group has such a reluctance to integrate imagine the visible muslim's reluctance to integrate.
What else can the gov't do?
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: GAP on September 05, 2014, 13:56:30
The enclaves of like minded people make it unnecessary to make a large effort to integrate....this has gone on down through history....Greeks, Irish, et al.

Some of what the difference is what they look like....the Chinese looked different thus were left alone in their own communites and discriminated against, as were most Asians....now the influx is from African/brown nations and the same thing is happening. In addition, the conflicts these people are running away from are not so easy to avoid anymore as the communications through the internet bring it here in a flash.

In short, nothing has changed.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: ModlrMike on September 05, 2014, 16:38:57
The problem lies not in the pot, but rather in the melting. Or lack thereof.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: E.R. Campbell on September 05, 2014, 17:18:50
There IS a problem with the pot, too, I think.

We say we are a bilingual/multicultural country but I'm not sure how true that is, outside of few 'pockets.' Ask a Francophone how much "at home" they feel in, say, Richmond BC (http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2013/03/20/chris-selley-richmond-b-c-makes-the-right-call-on-chinese-only-signs/) or, say, Richmond Hill, ON (http://www.richmondhill.ca/documents/2011_richmond_hill_census_profile.pdf) (p. 12 on the link).

We do have some multicultural places, Richmond BC, for example, is "home" for about equal numbers of English and Chinese speakers (Cantonese and Mandarin, mainly) and for folks of Indian ethnicity, but it doesn't look too "friendly" for Arabic speakers ... but then neither does Richmond Hill, ON.

I think we have one very large melting pot: Toronto, and one medium sized one: Greater Vancouver. My reading of the data is that Montreal is actually getting less and less "multicultural" while Calgary, Winnipeg and so on are growing in "multicultural" status but are still overwhelmingly English while smaller cities in Quebec are resolutely French.


Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Thucydides on September 06, 2014, 01:54:15
Expanding a bit on the points being made here, many people are not assimilating. Now we could follow the Saudi solution and encourage them to go abroad, cancel their passports and wait for them to catch a Hellfire or JADAM courtesy of the USAF (which is ruthless enough to actually work), but I suspect that won't go over very well here. OTOH, based on the social media chatter, I think these people "self identify" fairly easily. Identification, careful watching and being swift to move in the first sign of activity beyond posting noxious messages on FaceBook should be acceptable solutions.

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/387188/foreign-legion-losers-jonah-goldberg

Quote
A Foreign Legion for Losers
Many of the Westerners flocking to the Islamic State are middle-class misfits for whom jihad is a radical pose.
By Jonah Goldberg

On the Internet, you’re never really alone. Name any fad, any cause, any hobby or passion — Shaker furniture? Dungeons and Dragons, Bolivian tree frogs? — and you’re only a few clicks away from someone who shares your obsession.

That’s great. It’s also horrible. Because while there’s no harm in tree-frog fans sharing pictures and stories that inspire others to fly to the Andes to take pictures of exotic creatures, the Internet also lets evil people share stories and pictures that inspire others to cut off the heads of various infidels and apostates.

Though I’m perfectly comfortable with YouTube, Twitter, Facebook, and similar platforms doing what they can to undermine the PR campaigns of fanatical murderers, my point here isn’t necessarily that such things should be banned or censored (even if that were technologically feasible). I weary of reflexive responses to barbarism that involve curtailing the freedoms of Americans in order to avoid offending savages.

Rather, my point is that to a considerable extent, the Islamic State — and groups like it — is a modern Foreign Legion for losers. When discussing people who openly boast of rape, murder, and torture, “loser” is hardly too harsh. But invective is not my intent when I call them losers. These men — and a few women, too — are losers in a more significant sense. They are losers at Western civilization.
Recently the Middle East Media Research Institute (MEMRI) posted transcripts from Facebook and Twitter conversations among various French and British supporters of the Islamic State. They enthusiastically chatted about the exciting news that you can buy slave women in areas controlled by the Islamic State. The terrorist group reportedly captured an unknown number of women from the ethnic minority called Yazidis. They aren’t Muslims, so they can be used as chattel.

The men in the discussions asked all sorts of questions about the rules for sexually abusing (i.e., raping) the women. One British Muslim asked, “I have 3,500 dollars to spare, I am going to buy ten, who wants one?” A French man joked that 180 dollars must be the “price for the ugly ones.” There were plenty of “LOLs” in the thread. Because, you know, collecting the female survivors of mass murder and raping them is just so Laugh-Out-Loud funny to cretins who can bed women only at sword-point.

Many of the Westerners flocking to Syria and Iraq for “jihad tourism” don’t have any of the usual excuses one hears for terrorism. Just like the 9/11 hijackers, they are often middle-class, educated, and technologically adept.

What they are not is assimilated. They may have passports identifying them as American, French, or British, but they are not American, French, or British in their hearts. These labels do not give them the meaning and mission in life they crave. And Western democratic capitalism bores them. Often the children of immigrants, they are literally misfits; they don’t fit in with their parents’ native culture, but they also haven’t connected to the society in which they now live.

And that is nothing new. The French intellectual Olivier Roy observed over a decade ago that many of the violent Islamists in Europe were in fact “born-again Muslims” who adopted Islam not so much as a sincere religious conversion but as a radical pose against the West. In previous generations, they might have joined Marxist terror groups.

In other words, the ideology of radical Islamists is a convenient uniform in their crusade for power, sex, vengeance, excitement, whatever. The Telegraph’s Tim Stanley notes that one poll in France finds that more people in France, compared with residents of the Gaza Strip, support the Islamic State.

NBC News reports that since the release of the video showing the beheading of American journalist James Foley, some 28,000 pro–Islamic State Twitter accounts were created.

There have always been isolated losers. But that isolation often inspired its own remedy. People want to belong to a community. That desire fuels assimilation and civilization. The horrifying challenge of today is that thanks to the digital age and an ideology and a culture that often sees assimilation as incompatible with “multiculturalism,” the losers no longer have to stop being losers to cure their sense of isolation. They can join a huge virtual rape gang on the Web and have their evil desires confirmed and celebrated. And some of them, weary of puncturing their masturbatory reveries by pecking out LOL on a keyboard, have the option of hopping on a plane.

— Jonah Goldberg is editor-at-large of National Review Online and a fellow at the American Enterprise Institute. You can write to him by e-mail at goldbergcolumn@gmail.com or via Twitter @JonahNRO. © 2014 Tribune Content Agency, LLC

Now another potential solution exists based on the highlighted line, but it would require some heavy duty work and getting hands quite dirty to change the "attitudes, perceptions and behaviours" of these people and neutralizing the negative influences. Do we have the willpower and resources for that project?
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: milnews.ca on September 21, 2014, 09:04:54
"Ottawa revoking passports of Canadians who join extremist groups: Alexander" (http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/ottawa-revoking-passports-of-canadians-who-join-extremist-groups-alexander-1.2017048)
Quote
Canadians who travel overseas to join extremist groups can expect to have their passports revoked, the government is warning.

Citizenship and Immigration Minister Chris Alexander said Saturday that Ottawa has begun revoking travel documents for those who travel to places such as Iraq and Syria to fight with the Islamic State and other militants groups.

“If we have evidence – and I mean substantive, incontrovertible evidence – that someone has left Canada with the intention of committing what would be an indictable offence here, including terrorism, then we can revoke, suspend or invalidate their passport,” Alexander told CTV News.

 The minister said the Islamic State is not just a problem in the Middle East, but a global threat.

“Given the barbaric nature of the groups operating now in Syria and Iraq, and their unscrupulous tactics, we need this kind of measure to prevent people from going down this misguided path, and to deter young people from even thinking about it,” he said.

The measures are “serious, strong legal safeguards,” that Alexander said will “only ever going to apply, we think, to a small group of people.”

Alexander said the power to revoke travel documents was already established under the Canadian Passport Order, and that it had been used in the past. He said “multiple people” have already had their passports revoked in light of recent situations, but declined provide specific numbers ....
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: E.R. Campbell on September 22, 2014, 08:45:48
And, according to this article which is reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the Globe and Mail, the RCMP (and, presumably, other LE agencies in other countries) is using the full range of laws and regulations to "bust" would-be terrorists:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/rcmp-using-new-measures-to-stop-high-risk-travellers/article20712700/#dashboard/follows/
Quote
(https://Air-Force.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbeta.images.theglobeandmail.com%2Fmedia%2Fwww%2Fimages%2Fflag%2Fgam-masthead.png&hash=19ff3553db0adc5a5af34a8cb80569c3)
RCMP using new measures to stop ‘high-risk travellers’

COLIN FREEZE AND CARRIE TAIT
The Globe and Mail

Last updated Saturday, Sep. 20 2014

Ali Abubaker and Naomi Mahdere were talented teenagers. He was a hip-hop poet, riffing about inequality and injustice; she was a polished singer, mimicking pop stars such as Beyonce. In 2011, Ms. Mahdere won a talent competition put on by Calgary’s Afrikadey Arts & Culture Society. Mr. Abubaker placed second.

Ms. Madhere, now 19, wanted to study biochemistry and become a doctor. Mr. Abubaker, now 22, was studying civil engineering at Mount Royal University.

At some point, a romantic relationship between the two blossomed. Ms. Mahdere, an Eritrean-Christian by heritage, converted to Islam. Those who knew Mr. Abubaker, whose parents hailed from Eritrea and the Philippines, were alarmed by his religious stridency, which began surfacing in his poetry.

Ms. Mahdere’s mother became so concerned about Mr. Abubaker’s views on Islam that she called the RCMP’s national security team last year. She told investigators she believed her daughter and her boyfriend were going to Syria to fight in the war. The couple applied for new passports in October, 2013, wanting the paperwork rushed. In November, they presented passport officials with one-way tickets to London, England.

That’s when the police stepped in. Working with Passport Canada officials, they picked up Mr. Abubaker, Ms. Mahdere and their friend Hamza Omer, on charges of passport fraud, keeping them grounded in Canada and off a flight to London. All three pleaded guilty. Their combined fines will likely total around $3,000 – a small sum considering the Crown prosecutor argued their actions could have brought the integrity of the entire Canadian passport system into disrepute.

The couple – who couldn’t be reached through lawyers, listed addresses or family members – have paid their dues, and are still together. But the case remains important: not just because of what the Mounties allege they could prove, but because of what they couldn’t.

Without the ability to amass the proof beyond doubt they need to lay more serious charges, officials are increasingly leaning on other measures and investigative partners for help to disrupt “high-risk travellers” from getting on planes.

The threat of homegrown terrorism isn’t new, but the manner in which the RCMP zeroed in on this couple represents a fresh gambit in the fight to identify and stop prospective terrorist recruits before they leave Canada. These techniques, which have attracted the ire of civil liberties advocates, are being deployed amid a growing sense of urgency: Officials are warning that more than 100 Canadians are suspected of involvement in terrorism activities around the world.

“Into that fanaticism”

Tunde Dawodu, who works at building a sense of pan-African identity among creative Calgary youth through the annual Afrikadey weeklong festival, met Mr. Abubaker around 2010. And he has known Ms. Mahdere since she was a little girl. Mr. Abubaker, he said, was a talented artist, but his poems increasingly included religious terms like Allahu Akbar – Arabic for God is great.

Mr. Dawodu worried about the teenager and tried to talk to him about it. “He was just too much into that fanaticism,” Mr. Dawodu said in an interview in Afrikadey’s basement office in Calgary.

Mr. Abubaker, in the program guide for the 2011 festival, described his poetry with a softer spin. “Speaking and writing about the injustice, that is what inspires me,” Mr. Abubaker said.

Ms. Mahdere described the “rush” she felt when singing in front of an audience. “You go on stage and at first you are nervous, but then you start to feel comfortable and you can really feed off the energy the crowd is giving you,” she said in her bio.

In the accompanying photo, Ms. Mahdere is wearing a denim vest, short skirt and fringed boots. Her Facebook profile photo, prior to being removed this week, featured a woman in black niqab with only her eyes visible.

The pair is now “married under Islamic sharia,” according to court documents.

Mr. Dawodu tells a story that shows how Ms. Mahdere’s religious transformation coincides with her romantic relationship.

Ms. Mahdere phoned him out of the blue last year with an odd request given she had once wanted to tour the world as a pop singer. She wanted her old pictures deleted from the Afrikadey’s website. “I don’t want my body to be exposed,” he recalls her saying.

In the midst of this conversation, an angry man grabbed the phone. “Listen, this is Naomi’s husband,” the man said, according to Mr. Dawodu. He, too, demanded the photos be removed.

“He was threatening me with violence,” Mr. Dawodu said. The husband never identified himself, but Mr. Dawodu recognized the voice as Mr. Abubaker’s.

Undermining “the integrity of the Canadian passport system”

The passport fraud case against Mr. Abubaker and Ms. Mahdere began with a phone call to the RCMP’s integrated national security team on Oct. 28, 2013. It was her mother.

“Ms. Mahdere’s parents were concerned that Mr. Abubaker and Ms. Mahdere planned to go to Syria to fight in the war,” prosecutor Steven Johnston told the court.

The mother’s theory was based on her concerns about “Mr. Abubaker’s perceived views on Islam.” She noticed her daughter’s debit card had been used twice on the same day at Passport Canada.

RCMP co-ordinated with Passport Canada. They found that Mr. Abubaker, Ms. Mahdere and their friend Mr. Omer all relied on the same guarantor as they sought to rush their passport applications. The RCMP spoke with the guarantor and determined he did not meet the requirements. He knew neither Ms. Mahdere nor Mr. Omer and had been out of contact with Mr. Abubaker, who pushed him to sign all three applications.

This was enough for police to charge the three with passport fraud. “What Mr. Abubaker and his cohorts did undermines the integrity of the Canadian passport system,” Mr. Johnston, the prosecutor, told the court. Such illegal acts could tarnish Canada’s reputation to the point that all citizens would “end up on visas to travel to the United States.”

Defence lawyers said the three had no intention of going to the Middle East. Instead, they had planned to attend an Islamic conference in London.

Ms. Mahdere addressed the court during her hearing, disputing any notion that she and her husband ever harboured “radical views.”

“We follow mainstream Islam, we don’t follow any fringe group or any extremes,” she said.

“Disrupting” suspects

Police in Canada often talk of “disrupting” potential terrorism suspects, language that makes civil libertarians nervous. Critics of the RCMP want police to proceed in open courts. They point out Mounties were faulted by separate judicial inquiries, in the 1980s and early 2000s, for unlawful conduct in their fight against terrorism.

“You don’t want some committee in some hidden office in Ottawa making these kinds of decisions that would interfere with someone’s right to liberty,” said Paul Cavalluzzo, a lawyer who acted as commission counsel during the 2004 Maher Arar inquiry.

But the Conservative government is promising Canadians that authorities will get better at preventing terrorism – and the term “high-risk travellers” (HRT) has gained currency, applied to cases in which officials are long on fears but short on evidence. A senior Mountie chairs Canada’s HRT “case management committee,” where security officials meet every few weeks to discuss who they need to keep off outbound planes.

Superintendent Wade Oldford, the RCMP’s top counterterrorism detective, says the committee was “born out of necessity,” especially after “the number of individuals brought to our attention leaving the country started to increase significantly as the events in Syria started to unfold.”

The police gold standard for any national-security investigation remains arresting, charging and prosecuting suspects in open court on Anti-Terrorist Act offences. But when they can’t reach that standard, they turn to other means. Supt. Oldford, in an interview, gave a hypothetical example.

“If we knew there was an individual discussing planning to leave Canada for Syria and we didn’t have enough information to lay a charge,” he said, “then is there something from a Passport Canada perspective they could do under their own legislation?”


Good for them ... when you cannot win "gold standard" a silver or bronze is still better than sitting on the sidelines and wringing our collective hands.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: jollyjacktar on September 22, 2014, 09:12:56
Now there's reports that ISIS is calling for their loser fan base in western countries to conduct strikes.  Canada is mentioned.

Quote
ISIS audio urges attacks on 'unbelievers' in Canada
 
Coalition members among those targeted in latest ISIS propaganda speech
CBC NewsPosted: Sep 21, 2014 9:48 PM ET|Last Updated: Sep 22, 2014 6:41 AM ET

In an audio recording distributed widely on social media Sunday, Islamic extremist group ISIS urged attacks on civilians in member countries of the U.S.-led coalition opposed to their violent spread through areas of Syria and Iraq.

In the nearly 42-minute long meandering propaganda speech uploaded to Twitter, ISIS spokesman Abu Muhammad al-Adnani encourages Muslims to kill “disbelievers” in countries, including Canada, currently supporting American and French-backed military action against the group in Iraq “in any manner.”


"If you can kill a disbelieving American or European — especially the spiteful and filthy French — or an Australian, or a Canadian, or any other disbeliever from the disbelievers waging war, including the citizens of the countries that entered into a coalition against the Islamic State … kill him in any manner or way however it may be,” said Adnani.

In a statement released Sunday evening, Prime Minister Stephen Harper's spokesman condemned the recording and said Canada will continue to support efforts to defeat ISIS.

"ISIS represents a threat not just to stability in the Middle East, but to global security," said Jason MacDonald.

"We will continue to work with allies to push back against this threat. Like our allies we will not be cowed by threats while innocent children, women, men and religious minorities live in fear of these terrorists."

Threats made in the audio recording mirror those ISIS has made in other propaganda releases, including during the grisly beheading videos of two American journalists, James Foley and Stephen Sotloff, and British aid worker David Haines.

The United States is building an international coalition to combat the radical Sunni Muslim group, which has seized swathes of territory in Iraq and Syria and proclaimed a caliphate in the heart of the Middle East.

U.S. and French warplanes struck Islamic State targets in Iraq and on Sunday the United States said other countries had indicated a willingness to join it if it goes ahead with air strikes against the group in Syria too.

Adnani blamed Western allies for instigating a war against the terrorist group, and said the ongoing air incursions against ISIS positions in Iraq will be “the final campaign of the crusaders.”

Address mocks Western leaders

Unlike other terrorist organizations such as al-Qaeda, ISIS has established a widespread presence on social networks, using highly produced videos and audio recordings in an effort to recruit new fighters from abroad and intimidate those opposed to their murderous agenda.

In his statement, Adnani mocked Western leaders over their deepening military engagement in the region and said U.S. President Barack Obama was repeating the mistakes of his predecessor, George W. Bush.

"If you fight it (Islamic State), it becomes stronger and tougher. If you leave it alone, it grows and expands. If Obama has promised you with defeating the Islamic State, then Bush has also lied before him," Adnani said, according to the transcript.

Obama, who has spent much of his tenure extracting the United States from Iraq after its costly 2003 invasion and occupation, is sensitive to charges that he is being drawn into another long campaign that risks U.S. soldiers' lives.

While Obama has ruled out a combat mission, military officials say the reality of a protracted campaign in Iraq and possibly Syria may ultimately require greater use of U.S. troops, including tactical air strike spotters or front-line advisers embedded with Iraqi forces.
With files from Reuters

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/isis-audio-urges-attacks-on-unbelievers-in-canada-1.2773636
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Halifax Tar on September 22, 2014, 10:49:28
Makes me think of the SgtMaj from When We Were Soldiers as the NVA is about to over run the LZ

"Prepare to defend yourselves"

While I doubt the local "radicals"  are brave enough to carry anything out, it would be an extreme wake up call to our society if they did; and put the whole fantasy of multiculturalism in serious debate.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Rifleman62 on September 22, 2014, 12:57:10
http://www.torontosun.com/2014/09/13/trudeau-opposes-revoking-canadian-passports-of-would-be-terrorists

Trudeau opposes revoking Canadian passports of would-be terrorists


By Jessica Hume, National Bureau, September 13, 2014

TORONTO - Liberal Leader Justin Trudeau confused holding a passport with citizenship - but doesn't think the government should be able to take away either from Canadians suspected of being involved in terrorism.

The issue of homegrown terrorists has been in the spotlight since the onslaught of terror group Islamic State (ISIS), which claims to have established a caliphate - or Islamic state - in parts of Syria and Iraq and which has had alarming success in recruiting Western youth to fight for its cause.

Speaking with reporters Saturday at the Liberal Party of Ontario's annual general meeting in Markham, Trudeau said he believes the Canadian justice system is currently well enough equipped to handle homegrown terrorism.

Legislation passed in June allows the federal government to strip citizenship from dual citizens who are convicted of terrorism at home or abroad.

Trudeau and his Liberals opposed the legislation. He has often expressed his concern the bill creates a "two-tiered" system of citizenship.

Asked for his thoughts on revoking or denying passports to would-be terrorists, Trudeau appeared to conflate citizenship with having a passport, but ultimately said he believes the Criminal Code is the best tool to fight terrorism.

"I think that a lot of Canadians, including very conservative Canadians, should be worried about the state willing to, and taking the power to, arbitrarily remove citizenship from people," he said. "That's a slippery slope that I don't think we want to go on."

The government for many years has had the authority to deny or revoke the passports of citizens who "assist in committing an indictable offence in Canada or a similar offence abroad," among other reasons.

British Columbia immigration lawyer Richard Kurland says that's what any "practically minded head of government" should do.

"You can guard the world against 'bad Canadians' by ensuring they can't leave our borders," he said.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Hatchet Man on September 22, 2014, 18:46:04
Makes me think of the SgtMaj from When We Were Soldiers as the NVA is about to over run the LZ

"Prepare to defend yourselves"

While I doubt the local "radicals"  are brave enough to carry anything out, it would be an extreme wake up call to our society if they did; and put the whole fantasy of multiculturalism in serious debate.

That's a good way of putting it.  One of the thoughts that came to mind when I read the news of this video, calling for these fanatics, to attack random people in their own countries, is if it were to happen, would that be enough ammo to loosen the iron fist the various CFO's have regarding CCW permits.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: George Wallace on September 22, 2014, 19:49:19
Why sure!  Let's just add to the problem!

Wake up people.

Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.

Quote
Why has Canada only taken in 200 Syrian refugees? (http://www.thestar.com/news/atkinsonseries/2014/09/22/delay_delay_delay.html)

The Toronto Star
By: Peter Goodspeed Atkinson Fellow, Published on Fri Sep 19 2014

Canada has resettled 200 Syrian refugees while Sweden, which has only a quarter of Canada’s population, has taken in more than 30,000.


Martin Mark boils with frustration at the inertia he says has paralyzed Canada’s refugee system during Syria’s civil war.
“There is delay, delay, delay,” says the executive director of the Catholic Office of Refugees in the Archdiocese of Toronto (ORAT). “It is spoiling our international reputation.

“If I go to a church and tell them, ‘Please do the fundraising and prepare and the refugees will come,’ I have a good chance of getting a good response. But if I finish my speech by saying it will happen three years from today, they are going to say, ‘Get out, man. Are you serious?’

“Resettlement is done worldwide now,” Mark continues. “It’s not just the U.S. and Canada. If you see other countries, where the processing time is less than one year, you have to wonder. The U.K. Germany, Sweden, Norway . . . for God’s sake, I mean the maximum there is one year. The average is four to six months.
“So how come we became the worst ever resettlement processing country?”

Once a private sponsorhip — usually involving a church group — is approved, it can take two to five years to get a refugee to Canada, depending on the country where he or she is living.

Canada’s average processing time for privately sponsored refugee applications in Lebanon is two years. In Pakistan it is 5.4 years, in Egypt, 3.5 years and in South Africa, 4.7 years.

In the three and a half years war has raged in Syria, displacing 10 million people, Canada has struggled to resettle fewer than 200 Syrian refugees overseas and is still processing asylum applications from another 1,300 who made their way to Canada on their own.

In the same period, Germany resettled 6,000, welcomed another 11,800 Syrian asylum seekers and promised to offer protection — in the form of renewable, two-year residence visas — to another 20,000 of Syria’s most vulnerable victims trapped in the Middle East.

Sweden, a country with only about a quarter of Canada’s population, has given permanent resident status to more than 30,000 Syrians.

Two months after Canada announced, in July 2013, that it would accept 200 government-sponsored Syrian refugees by the end of this year, the Swedish government said all Syrians who made it to Sweden and passed normal security checks would be given permanent residence and allowed to bring their immediate family members to live with them.

While Canadian officials were still trying to process their first government-sponsored refugee, more than 5,000 Syrians arrived in Sweden in the first three months of Stockholm’s new policy.

Canada struggles to meet this year’s target of 200 government-sponsored refugees, while Sweden welcomes 600 Syrian refugees each week.
“Canada is just failing to respond,” says Mark. “It is very sad.”

The delays point to a refugee system riven by politics and struggling against bureaucratic lethargy.

Canada already has a backlog of 21,000 sponsored-refugee applications. Churches and community associations that sponsor refugees have, since 2011, been limited in the number of new applications they can submit each year, in order to give the government time to clear the backlogs.

It seems delays are built into the system that processes applications.

In 2012, Citizenship and Immigration Canada created a new Centralized Processing Office in Winnipeg to rapidly vet private sponsorship applications. The goal was to complete the initial application review in 30 days.

An operational evaluation of the new office at the end of its first year, obtained under the Access to Information Act, concludes: “The Centralized Processing Office . . . is currently experiencing critical processing and communications backlogs at a time when application volumes are expected to increase significantly.”
Instead of the benchmark 30-day processing time, “sponsors are not receiving a case decision for almost one year,” says the departmental assessment, dated November 2013.


“At current staffing and productivity levels, it is estimated that it will take (the office) over two years to clear the existing inventory of cases, in addition to almost two and a half years to process projected 2014 application submissions,” the report predicts.

There is a risk the new backlog, on top of existing waits in visa offices overseas, could jeopardize Canada’s privately sponsored refugee targets, the study concluded.

'Even the bureaucrats in Ottawa are unhappy'

“The Winnipeg office became a disaster,” says Mark. “And it’s not just the sponsors who are unhappy — even the bureaucrats in Ottawa are unhappy.

“Until 2011 we had a lot of Immigration Canada offices processing our cases and we had an excellent relationship with the people working there. They loved the program, they helped us and they would call us if there was anything they needed. But suddenly Ottawa decided, ‘No, this is not good. Let’s not communicate with the sponsors.’

“We have thousands of cases and we have had several where, because of the delays in Immigration Canada’s processing, refugees that were hoping to come to Canada have been selected by Australia or the United Kingdom or the United States, and they are processed and have already left before the Canadian approval comes through.”

In other instances, files have sat in Winnipeg for months before being suddenly returned with a note complaining of an inconsistency in the spelling of a foreign name, a missing address or email or a garbled telephone number, Mark says.

“They find a reason to refuse to process and after one year or one and a half years you are still at Step One. It is really upsetting for the relatives, for the churches, for the refugees and for the visa offices.”

Two-thirds of Canada’s privately sponsored refugees — there were 6,623 of them in 2013 — come to the country through groups like Mark’s. There are 85 “sponsorship agreement holders,” mostly churches and some ethnic organizations, that can submit sponsorship applications for their own and other groups.
Sponsors agree to provide emotional and financial support to refugees, including housing, clothing and food, for at least a year. It costs sponsors $12,600 a year to support a single refugee and around $26,000 for a family of four.

A recent survey of Canada’s faith-based refugee sponsorship groups by Citizens for Public Justice, an Ottawa-based Christian public policy organization, found that all church-connected sponsorship groups are concerned “about the long waiting period and processing time required after a sponsorship application is submitted.”

And 92 per cent of the church refugee groups complained about the government’s lack of consultation with them.

A number of the groups indicated they are frustrated not with civil servants but with the immigration minister’s office, the report said.

This year, it took the government nearly nine months to disclose its annual quotas to private refugee sponsors, a delay that virtually paralyzed them.

Normally, the quotas are announced well ahead of time so private sponsors know how many spots they have to fill and how they will be split among Canadian visa posts around the world. That gives them time to trade applications with each other to make sure that all the refugee allocations are filled up each year. This year, however, the sponsorship agreement holders didn’t get their 2014 quotas until late August. No public explanation was given.

“This year, the shift was moving from a sort of balanced global approach towards Syria,” Immigration Minister Chris Alexander told the Star. “And as the Syrian crisis and the UN appeals have come forward, we’ve tried to shift our planning in response.”

Alexander has hinted at plans to launch a large-scale operation to assist Syrian refugees, but Canada has yet to respond to an eight-month-old UNHCR request to have resettlement countries rescue 100,000 Syrians over the next two years.

“Generally, when the UNHCR puts out an appeal, Canada looks at the number and commits to about 10 per cent,” Brian Dyck, chairman of the Sponsorship Agreement Holders Association of Canada and refugee program co-ordinator for Manitoba’s Mennonite Central Committee, wrote recently. “To date, the Canadian government has said they will take part but has not set a number. For Canada to resettle 10,000 Syrians in the next two years could be a huge undertaking, however, with proper planning and support it can be done.”

If private refugee sponsors are going to be asked to pick up a large portion of the Syrian refugees, they don’t want it to be at the expense of their existing resettlement programs.

'The Syrian situation really needs our attention'

“Sponsoring groups have focused on resettlement of other refugees around the world, and we would not want to take away from that,” Dyck wrote in a blog posted on the Mennonite Central Committee’s website. “However, the Syrian situation really needs our attention. We need groups to add Syria to their list of places that we sponsor from. That is beginning to happen, but the take-up is slow.”

“I can’t tell you the amount of anxiety and stress that Syrians are going through,” says Faisal Alazem, spokesman for the Syrian Canadian Council. “Many members of the Syrian Canadian community are concerned that there is no priority processing or family reunification programs in place to assist their families.”
In 2007, as the United States struggled to develop a military exit strategy in Iraq amid targeted attacks on the country’s Christians, Canada said it would fast-track family-class visa applications for Iraqis with close family in Canada.

In 2010, following a major earthquake in Haiti, Canada announced a special Haitian family reunification program that fast-tracked 2,200 family-class sponsorships involving more than 3,300 people.

Within 24 hours of Typhoon Haiyan hitting the Philippines in 2013, the government promised to fast-track visa applications from Filipinos “significantly and personally affected” by the catastrophe and said Filipinos already in Canada who wanted to remain would be assessed in a “compassionate and flexible manner.”
By April 2014, 1,097 Filipinos were allowed to enter Canada; 245 of them were given temporary residence permits and 852 were granted permanent residence.
No similar programs have been introduced for Syrians.

“There is no political will to be either fast or flexible,” says Naomi Alboim, chair of Queen’s University’s Policy Forum and a former deputy-minister of citizenship in Ontario. “There is nothing to prevent them from having a huge (resettlement) response. There would not need to be any major legislative or policy reform if they wanted to respond quickly to major international situations.

“They could increase their quotas tomorrow,” she insists. “There is nothing to prevent them from doing that except political will and money.”

More on LINK (http://www.thestar.com/news/atkinsonseries/2014/09/22/delay_delay_delay.html).

Sadly, I am now looking at this as "importing the poisonous barbarianism from that Region into our society" by bringing in unscreened individuals who most likely will not adopt our culture and its freedoms.  People who potentially will turn on us.  People who may not believe in our freedom of speech, freedom of religion, and equality of the sexes.  Sadly, I believe the Church organizations and bureaucrats are all wrong.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Cloud Cover on September 22, 2014, 23:51:01
http://www.torontosun.com/2014/09/13/trudeau-opposes-revoking-canadian-passports-of-would-be-terrorists

Trudeau opposes revoking Canadian passports of would-be terrorists



Seriously this should surprise no one, he learned this bit of crap at the family dinner table >> like father, like son. IIRC, that middle fingering, insolent pirouetting SFB father of his had a few of those FLQ numpties deported to his favorite vacation destination (Cuba), then allowed them to re-enter Canada after a few years, and they all have pardons and passports.


   
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Brad Sallows on September 23, 2014, 00:02:24
Difficult to say which is worse - a wannabe PM who doesn't know the difference between citizenship and a passport, or a wannabe PM who objects to removing passport privileges from assholes.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Canucks on September 23, 2014, 08:57:47
Difficult to say which is worse - a wannabe PM who doesn't know the difference between citizenship and a passport, or a wannabe PM who objects to removing passport privileges from assholes.
Unbelievable, this should be a given. As far as I am concerned not only should they have the passports revoked but also charged. Canadians who don't get involved in politics need to realize that it is a crucial time for our being. Last thing we need is to turn into Europe where minorities will take over the government. By no means am I a resist but when push comes to shove we need to protect our kids futures, our freedoms, and our well-being.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: George Wallace on September 23, 2014, 09:52:49
........ father of his had a few of those FLQ numpties deported to his favorite vacation destination (Cuba), then allowed them to re-enter Canada after a few years, and they all have pardons and passports.


What I found most interesting of that incident, is the fact that one or more of them became staunch Federalists on their return.  Deportation to a country that reflects their beliefs, may be the eye-opener that they need to show them the folly of their ways. 
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Colin P on September 23, 2014, 16:29:51
The problem lies not in the pot, but rather in the melting. Or lack thereof.

To beat the metaphor a bit more, the problem lies in the fire under the pot.

Multiculturalism to be successful has to hang off of a healthy trunk which is the main culture which is tolerant of other cultures that do not cross certain lines. Those lines need to be clearly marked so immigrants coming to this country can know what is and what is not acceptable. The Conservatives did make steps in that direction.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: ModlrMike on September 23, 2014, 17:42:15
To beat the metaphor a bit more, the problem lies in the fire under the pot.

Multiculturalism to be successful has to hang off of a healthy trunk which is the main culture which is tolerant of other cultures that do not cross certain lines. Those lines need to be clearly marked so immigrants coming to this country can know what is and what is not acceptable. The Conservatives did make steps in that direction.

That's where I was going. It's near impossible to have a truly multicultural society when some cultures refuse to integrate. I'm not talking assimilation; which is much different. When folks come from other lands and settle in self propagating cultural ghettos, without changing who or what they were in the old country, you have a recipe for the sort of extremist mafia that grows in these closed communities.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Rifleman62 on September 23, 2014, 21:08:07
Sounds like it is similar to a First Nation reservation.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: Hatchet Man on September 23, 2014, 21:39:58
Mod note

Lets try to keep this on track since there is already a large thread, discussion, disection of the failure/success of multiculturalism around here.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: cryco on September 24, 2014, 12:15:17
If they walk among us and are willing to leave Canada to join the thugs in ISIS, why do we want to keep them here?  Take their passports and send them off.
I know it's an extra fighter that could be on the ground in Iraq or Syria or wherever, but that's one less clown in Canada, and at least if we let them go there, there's a chance that they get nailed by one of many airstrikes down there.
Hmm, to answer my own question, I imagine if they go there and get armed with an AK they can possibly kill many innocent people, and i'm not cold enough to say that's not my problem, because as a caring human, it kinda is.
Title: Re: Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
Post by: E.R. Campbell on September 24, 2014, 12:25:28
In this article, which is reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from The Economist, that newspaper suggests that, despite M. Trudeau's opposition, Canadians, broadly, support the initiative:

http://www.economist.com/blogs/americasview/2014/09/canadas-foreign-fighters
Quote
(https://Air-Force.ca/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.static-economist.com%2Fsites%2Fdefault%2Ffiles%2Fthe-economist-logo.gif&hash=cbb9d4d4dba0805ad9933c61057dc5d6)
Canada's foreign fighters[/i]
And don’t come back

Sep 23rd 2014

by M.D. | OTTAWA

AS WESTERN democracies struggle with how to deal with homegrown terrorists fighting abroad, the Conservative government of Canada has begun revoking the passports of its foreign fighters as well as people still in Canada planning to join them. Chris Alexander, minister for citizenship and immigration, would not say exactly how many passports have been revoked, only that it has been done multiple times against some of the estimated 130 Canadians fighting with extremists, dozens of whom are in Iraq and Syria.

Taking passports away from suspected terrorists is controversial. It gives other countries the incentive to respond in kind, and it severs the route home for those who might be having second thoughts. Human-rights advocates in Canada say the secretive process used to determine whether a person is a threat to national security, one of the criteria for having your passport revoked, allows the government to make arbitrary decisions. These can be challenged in court but only within 30 days of the decision.

The British government ran into opposition earlier this month when it contemplated confiscating the passports of its citizens suspected of fighting for the Islamic State (IS), potentially blocking them from coming home. Australia, another source of foreign fighters, is embroiled in a debate over a move by the government to declare e