Author Topic: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?  (Read 284036 times)

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Offline dapaterson

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #525 on: January 14, 2019, 15:31:01 »

Those were taken out of service years ago.  Unfortunately.  =(

You mean like the Upholders ;)
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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #526 on: January 14, 2019, 15:42:49 »
It should be recognized that with the very expensive new fighter (and likely some other aircraft types eventually) and CSC procurements no gov't will want to spend money on new subs for a long time to come (if ever); by that time there should be some new models on the market.  In any event no gov't is going to go nuclear-powered.

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Offline Colin P

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #527 on: January 14, 2019, 16:08:32 »
As i said that have to have balls and fairly large ones at that.........  ;D

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #528 on: January 14, 2019, 18:25:00 »
If our government had large balls, order 6 French Nuclear attack subs. France does all of the refueling and disposal. Other maintenance is done in Canada. Do not use an ITAR equipment in them if possible. We then told everyone including the US that we are serious about our sovereignty and Canada suddenly becomes a real player on the board. We would need 6 just to keep 2 subs on ops, 2 in training/workup and 2 in overhaul.

Any particular reason you picked French ones over, say, the Astute class or something?
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Offline Karel Doorman

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #529 on: January 14, 2019, 18:37:29 »
Any particular reason you picked French ones over, say, the Astute class or something?

That(the seemingly French preference),and the thing about "going nuclear"(but could be wrong here. ;)  ) even the Australians don't go "there"(it's because it's very expensive and you"ll need a big budget to do so,and this is where things go "wrong",),besides the political will(of which there's very little)to do so,

Again,my thoughts, are that if(and when)Canada should decide to replace the "Vics",they will probably go the "conventional"route,as will we here in the Netherlands.(along with the Australians),both of these countries are in the proces of replacing their sub fleet,We have to decide what we will be getting(probably the A-26 ER),the Australians will get the Shortfin.(only question is when)

I think (but again,my thoughts)Canada will look towards what Australia(but this option is probably to costly) and the Neteherlands are doing,because(and this is the simple fact of the matter)those are the only "NATO"(Australia isn't,but "NATO and Australia signalled their commitment to strengthening cooperation.) members with conventionals that have "long legs"(and Canada needs and wants the same)
« Last Edit: January 14, 2019, 19:01:43 by Karel Doorman »
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Offline Colin P

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #530 on: January 14, 2019, 23:19:43 »
Any particular reason you picked French ones over, say, the Astute class or something?

Less ITAR issues and less chance the US could interfere.

Offline LoboCanada

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #531 on: January 18, 2019, 15:08:47 »
Why not 6 A26's? Have the option of VLS/TLAMs. Seem to be lots of advances in Japan with their batteries too. Tack on 6 orders once Sweden is partly done with building their 2. Build them over their, add a maintenance contract with a Cdn yard.

Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #532 on: January 18, 2019, 21:11:17 »
Do we want true *bluewater* boats, or just littoral/coastal ones more suited for the stuff in close to Canada?  I think that is the first question...what do we want to do with them.  That should help determine #s and class.
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Offline OceanBonfire

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #533 on: January 22, 2019, 10:13:27 »
Quote
Refit to put Victoria-class sub at 'cutting edge' of technology

Wells Gaetz, CTV Vancouver Island
Published Monday, January 21, 2019


HMCS Corner Brook, the navy's workhorse submarine, is undergoing a massive retrofit at the Esquimalt Graving Dock. Jan. 21, 2019. (CTV Vancouver Island)

HMCS Corner Brook, a long range hunter-killer Canadian submarine, is in dry dock undergoing a complete overhaul in Esquimalt.

The Victoria-class submarine is halfway through its retrofit, barely recognizable, shrouded in scaffolding and protective wrap.

Once completed, the sub will be outfitted with state-of-the-art technology and will better able to patrol Canadian coastlines.

CTV News was able to get a look at the project Monday, which is halfway to completion.

"Corner Brook will essentially be a brand new submarine," said Cmdr. Mike Mangin. "So this really puts the Victoria-class submarines at the cutting edge of submarine technology."

The upgrades include a new mast system and military satellite communications antenna.

Following the refit, the sub is estimated to be back in service for another 15 years. The work should be complete by early 2020.

https://vancouverisland.ctvnews.ca/hunter-killer-sub-hmcs-corner-brook-undergoes-massive-retrofit-1.4263103
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Online MilEME09

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #534 on: January 22, 2019, 14:54:24 »
15 years? I wonder if the pressure hull can take another 15 years of wear and tare.
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Offline Larry Strong

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #535 on: January 22, 2019, 19:23:16 »
15 years? I wonder if the pressure hull can take another 15 years of wear and tare.

Do the hulls have a shelf life? Are they governed by a formula using the depths sailed and the time spent at such depths. or something to that effect?


Asked by a landlubber....   ;)


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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #536 on: January 23, 2019, 07:58:23 »
Do the hulls have a shelf life? Are they governed by a formula using the depths sailed and the time spent at such depths. or something to that effect?


Asked by a landlubber....   ;)


Cheers
Larry


Great question!

I see that (just some?) aircraft carriers have a design life of 50 years and that the venerable B-52, which was designed and went into initial production in the 1950s might still be flying in 2050!

How long can a submarine be kept in service? Is there one key 'driver' to establish service life?
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Offline Uzlu

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #537 on: January 23, 2019, 08:37:45 »
How long can a submarine be kept in service?
Ohio is to be retired in 2029—about forty-eight years after commissioning.

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #538 on: January 23, 2019, 09:27:14 »

Great question!

I see that (just some?) aircraft carriers have a design life of 50 years and that the venerable B-52, which was designed and went into initial production in the 1950s might still be flying in 2050!

How long can a submarine be kept in service? Is there one key 'driver' to establish service life?

Hopefully, I do not stray too far outside of my lane, but I have been led to believe that it is a function of what kind of steel that was used in the construction of the pressure hull (strength vs brittleness), how many cycles to depth the submarine has had and what how much life the through hull fittings have left (they are replaceable, but each have finite lives measured in 'x' years (not cycles to depth). The submarine hull must every 5 years (IIRC) be assessed and either it gets a new dive certificate or it does not and work has to be done to fix the problem (every problem can be fixed, if you have an unlimited budget, which Canada does not have).

In short, there is not an easy answer to that question.

That is my (probably shaky) understanding of submarine fatigue life, assembled over several years and many beers. I am more than willing to be corrected on any point, by those more knowledgeable than I.

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #539 on: January 23, 2019, 09:41:16 »
….assembled over several years and many beers.
Hey, I recognize the methodology.    :nod:

   :cheers:

Offline Retired AF Guy

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #540 on: January 23, 2019, 16:16:27 »
Do we want true *bluewater* boats, or just littoral/coastal ones more suited for the stuff in close to Canada?  I think that is the first question...what do we want to do with them.  That should help determine #s and class.

The nice thing about the A26 is that it comes in three different versions; one version is designed for littoral operations, and the other two for oceanic and oceanic extended range operations. So you could buy two/three different subs, which would have some common components, which would cut down on training costs.
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Offline Uzlu

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #541 on: January 23, 2019, 16:17:47 »
Quote
Canadian navy pressing ahead on life extensions for submarines

OTTAWA — The Department of National Defence is pushing ahead with plans to extend the lives of Canada's submarine fleet, with the head of the navy hoping some work will start in the coming months.

The movement comes as countries around the world have stepped up investments in their submarine and anti-submarine fleets to protect their waters — and operate in waters not under their control.

Canada's four Victoria-class submarines have a troubled history since they were bought second-hand from Britain in 1998, with successive governments investing hundreds of millions of dollars in constant repairs and upgrades.

But in an interview with The Canadian Press, Royal Canadian Navy commander Vice-Admiral Ron Lloyd said the diesel-powered submarines — HMCS Chicoutimi, Victoria, Corner Brook and Windsor — have finally turned a corner.

Lloyd specifically pointed to HMCS Chicoutimi's having recently spent 197 days in the Pacific and Asia even as HMCS Windsor was patrolling the Mediterranean with NATO as proof the submarines are living up to their potential.

"The fact we had two boats concurrently deployed, if that doesn't speak to the success of the program, I don't know what does," said Lloyd, who will retire from the military later this year after three years as navy commander.

The clock has been ticking on the four vessels: without upgrades, the first of the submarines will reach the end of its life in 2022, according to documents obtained through access to information, while the last will retire in 2027.

But the Liberals' defence policy promised to extend the lives of the vessels and Lloyd said defence officials are now working through the details to make sure they can continue to operate into the 2030s.

More extensive work is expected to start in about three or four years but Lloyd said efforts are underway to start implementing some minor upgrades by March.

Exactly how much upgrading all four submarines will cost remains uncertain, but Lloyd said the figure that officials are working with is about $2 billion.

Some experts have previously called for Canada to consider new submarines, rather than extending the lives of the ones it has, but the government has said upgrading the Victoria-class ships is more "prudent."

Other experts have said the country doesn't need such expensive vessels. But many other countries around the world are investing in submarine and antisubmarine fleets. NATO has specifically raised concerns about Russian submarines in the North Atlantic, while Canadian frigate commanders patrolling in the Atlantic and Mediterranean have reported more foreign submarines in recent years.

"The most proliferated weapon system right now on the planet are submarines," Lloyd said. "They by themselves can impact the outcome of a battle space. And so putting a submarine into a body of water instantly changes the calculus that are currently operating in those bodies of water."

Aside from upgrading its submarines, the Canadian military has started to return to its Cold War role as a leader in antisubmarine warfare in the North Atlantic by upgrading its frigates and maritime patrol planes and adding new maritime helicopters.
https://www.nationalnewswatch.com/2019/01/22/canadian-navy-pressing-ahead-on-life-extensions-for-submarines/#.XEhnl_x7nUJ

Offline suffolkowner

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #542 on: January 23, 2019, 18:22:41 »
I think part of a submarine's life is determined by whether or not the pressure hull has been cut and rewelded?
Or is that just for the diving depth?

Offline LoboCanada

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #543 on: January 24, 2019, 09:36:19 »
Can someone explain why it costs $2 Billion to extend the life of just 4 ships? Aren't new SSKs about $1 Billion each already?Why not just start a competition now?

Could almost copy the Attack Class competition, with the one change being additional length/designed for future modifications (adding cells, additional batteries, etc..).

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #544 on: January 24, 2019, 12:33:13 »
Can someone explain why it costs $2 Billion to extend the life of just 4 ships? Aren't new SSKs about $1 Billion each already?Why not just start a competition now?

Could almost copy the Attack Class competition, with the one change being additional length/designed for future modifications (adding cells, additional batteries, etc..).
  Except we still need to complete a mid-life overhaul to get our current fleet to last until the new boats are commissioned.  That process, if started today, would require at least 10 to 15 years before the first one was ready for use and that is pre-supposing that they get the competition right first time.   do you want to put any money on that happening?

Offline Loch Sloy!

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #545 on: January 24, 2019, 12:34:03 »
New SSKs could be purchased for more like $500 million (assuming they were purchased off the shelf- which I suppose would never happen) so for the price of the upgrade we could likely buy 4 brand new boats incorporating all the latest AIP tech... 2 Billion dollar upgrade program is beyond stupid, its also quite likely how it will play out.  ::)
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Offline Karel Doorman

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #546 on: January 24, 2019, 12:40:52 »
Can someone explain why it costs $2 Billion to extend the life of just 4 ships? Aren't new SSKs about $1 Billion each already?Why not just start a competition now?

Could almost copy the Attack Class competition, with the one change being additional length/designed for future modifications (adding cells, additional batteries, etc..).

That's a lot,for example here in the Netherlands "the extend life program"(IPW)for the 4 Walrusses will cost about 100 million,this includes:

Op 13 mei 2013 ondertekende de Defensie Materieels Organisatie (DMO) het contract met Imtech Marine Netherlands voor het Instandhoudingsprogramma Walrusklasse, of IP-W. Daarmee ging het project ook officieel van start. De vier boten worden gedurende zeven jaar gemoderniseerd. Het programma behelst:

• conservering van de drukhuid (nieuw verfsysteem en herstel drukhuid)-repairs pressure hull and a new paint
• vervanging van een aantal verouderde sensoren (sonar, navigatieperiscoop)-new sonars,optronical mast,(etc)
• verbeterde communicatiesystemen, zowel intern als extern (datalink, satcom)-upgraded/modernized communicationsystems
• vervanging van Gipsy door nieuw Combat Management System (CMS)-New Combat System
• aanpassingen aan een aantal platformsystemen (bijv. de luchtmonitoring)-New sensors,for example air quality monitors

Plus an extra 100 million for the modernisation/upgrading for the Mk 48 Torpedoes.(for better possibillities/use in shallow waters)

So in total about 200-250 million,for the 4 subs.

Program started in 2013 and will end in 2019(all should be done by then,last one is now in,btw)

Now "life"will be extended to about 2025.(then the new subs will/should start to come into service)

« Last Edit: January 24, 2019, 12:44:57 by Karel Doorman »
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Offline suffolkowner

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #547 on: January 25, 2019, 11:56:12 »
Maybe the refit is a complete rebuild a sort of my grandfather's axe situation as it is often easier to get a repair budget through than new capital?

I think a refit is necessary anyways as neither the Dutch or Australian projects are anywhere near ready. What hot or warm SSK lines are running now?

Soryu mk2 Japan
KSS-III      South Korea
Scorpene   France
S-80         Spain
U-218       Germany

We would have to move lightning quick from a procurement standpoint to choose one of the above designs

Offline JMCanada

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #548 on: January 25, 2019, 14:48:33 »
My first choice would be Soryu, but japanese may be reluctant to export their technology. Then the german type 212 -CD , with extended range compared to the standard version, might fit RCN needs.

Offline Karel Doorman

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Re: Status on Victoria-class Submarines?
« Reply #549 on: January 25, 2019, 15:18:04 »
Maybe the refit is a complete rebuild a sort of my grandfather's axe situation as it is often easier to get a repair budget through than new capital?

I think a refit is necessary anyways as neither the Dutch or Australian projects are anywhere near ready. What hot or warm SSK lines are running now?

Soryu mk2 Japan
KSS-III      South Korea
Scorpene   France
S-80         Spain
U-218       Germany

We would have to move lightning quick from a procurement standpoint to choose one of the above designs

You forgot Sweden's A-26,which are being build(1st of 2) as we speak(Oceanic Version) :nod:

And true,first projects that will be started are the 12 MCM ships(replacement Tripartite class,decision probably next month or so,on which design is chosen),Belgium leads in this project,after that (probably in the

next few months also)a decision will be made on which design is chosen to replace the ASW/GP frigates.(Netherlands leads)and will be a class of 4(to start with,possibly an option for 2 more for the

Netherlands),shortly after that(thinking around May),the winning design for the new sub will be chosen,so busy times for the Dutch Navy.

Also an extra CSS(Combat Support Ship) will be build,and joining the Navy around 2021/22(decision has been made about that one)

Basically modernising 3/4 of our Navy.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2019, 15:29:22 by Karel Doorman »
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