New Dress Regs 🤣

[SupersonicMax]

Everybody has 'stupid' rules.

Because everyone has “stupid” rules, it’s okay to have ours and we don’t need to try and remove the silliness?

In my career, I have had longer than average hair on an almost regular basis (I normally get a haircut monthly and yes, my hair touches my ears towards the end of that time period) and boots that were not always black. In most cases, it was because I was stupid busy at work and taking the hour to get a haircut or the 15-20 minutes to polish boots wasn’t a smart time management strategy. This didn’t prevent my CoC to assign some rather complex an important tasks and roles.

 

[kev994]

If it’s not written down, it’s also likely not signed off by the appropriate authority so…

Have you ever tried proving that a rule doesn’t exist? My base had a collective heart attack in the fall when the base chief saw someone in Tim’s defying the assumed rule. He’ll hath no fury. I spent like a day on this. It’s not in the National dress manual, that just says gloves need to be worn with a gaberdine or something like that, also says operational dress per the formation commander’s discretion. CADO 1-106 just says you can wear a toque, also you can wear gloves. My base orders say that you shall wear gloves with a rain jacket, nobody seems to know or care about this one, nothing about toques. So I point out to the Unit chief that Bloggins isn’t doing anything wrong, it’s not a real rule and here’s what I’ve discovered; he points at the gaberdine one and says well it’s implied here

 

[daftandbarmy]

Because everyone has “stupid” rules, it’s okay to have ours and we don’t need to try and remove the silliness?

In my career, I have had longer than average hair on an almost regular basis (I normally get a haircut monthly and yes, my hair touches my ears towards the end of that time period) and boots that were not always black. In most cases, it was because I was stupid busy at work and taking the hour to get a haircut or the 15-20 minutes to polish boots wasn’t a smart time management strategy. This didn’t prevent my CoC to assign some rather complex an important tasks and roles.

You clearly aren't a Cpl in a RCR rifle section then

 

[Furniture]

Have you ever tried proving that a rule doesn’t exist? My base had a collective heart attack in the fall when the base chief saw someone in Tim’s defying the assumed rule. He’ll hath no fury. I spent like a day on this. It’s not in the National dress manual, that just says gloves need to be worn with a gaberdine or something like that, also says operational dress per the formation commander’s discretion. CADO 1-106 just says you can wear a toque, also you can wear gloves. My base orders say that you shall wear gloves with a rain jacket, nobody seems to know or care about this one, nothing about toques. So I point out to the Unit chief that Bloggins isn’t doing anything wrong, it’s not a real rule and here’s what I’ve discovered; he points at the gaberdine one and says well it’s implied here

That sort of foolishness is why the air force way is best. If you're cold wear authorized kit to be warm, if you're warm take off the offending layer.

 

[OldSolduer]

Have you ever tried proving that a rule doesn’t exist? My base had a collective heart attack in the fall when the base chief saw someone in Tim’s defying the assumed rule. He’ll hath no fury. I spent like a day on this. It’s not in the National dress manual, that just says gloves need to be worn with a gaberdine or something like that, also says operational dress per the formation commander’s discretion. CADO 1-106 just says you can wear a toque, also you can wear gloves. My base orders say that you shall wear gloves with a rain jacket, nobody seems to know or care about this one, nothing about toques. So I point out to the Unit chief that Bloggins isn’t doing anything wrong, it’s not a real rule and here’s what I’ve discovered; he points at the gaberdine one and says well it’s implied here

As a former RSM I had a few rules and I hope none were silly. I told the troops wear boots that are black when in CADPAT as long as they were a black combat style boot. No issues. I also told them no Under Armor or dry weave t shirts for safety reasons - they burn and stick. No issues.

And I never enforced the stupid gloves must be worn with rain jacket BS.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Because everyone has “stupid” rules, it’s okay to have ours and we don’t need to try and remove the silliness?

In my career, I have had longer than average hair on an almost regular basis (I normally get a haircut monthly and yes, my hair touches my ears towards the end of that time period) and boots that were not always black. In most cases, it was because I was stupid busy at work and taking the hour to get a haircut or the 15-20 minutes to polish boots wasn’t a smart time management strategy. This didn’t prevent my CoC to assign some rather complex an important tasks and roles.

I totally get your point but you gotta understand the cultural differences between being a Pilot and an Infantry Soldier.

I am assessing that the Combat Arms will probably have the hardest time with these changes because they are organizations that promote conformity at the expense of everything else.

It's necessary to function effectively in the environment. Is it fair? No. Are people sometimes bullied and harassed out of Units for the perception of being weak or different? Yes.

What it comes down to is conformity. Picking someone up for something as simple as not cutting their hair was a pretty easy way to determine who would potentially not follow other orders with more serious consequences.

Nothing about being an Infanteer is that hard. Literally any able bodied person can attempt it, until it gets crappy. It takes a certain type to want to continue to do it, inspite of that.

It's a gang mentality that has existed in frontline units forever.

I look forward to watching the consequences of all of this play out and its implementation from the comfort of my retirement

 

[OldSolduer]

Nothing about being an Infanteer is that hard. Literally any able bodied person can attempt it, until it gets crappy. It takes a certain type to want to continue to do it, inspite of that.

Everyone wants to be infantry until you actually have to do infantry shit.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Everyone wants to be infantry until you actually have to do infantry shit.

Just ask the Chechen Tiktok Battalion

 

[Kat Stevens]

Everyone wants to be infantry until you actually have to do infantry shit.

Disagree

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Disagree

Or maybe they just know they don't like the taste of crayons already.

Eating crayons in Kindergarten is very important.

 

[Good2Golf]

I totally get your point but you gotta understand the cultural differences between being a Pilot and an Infantry Soldier.

I am assessing that the Combat Arms will probably have the hardest time with these changes because they are organizations that promote conformity at the expense of everything else.

It's necessary to function effectively in the environment. Is it fair? No. Are people sometimes bullied and harassed out of Units for the perception of being weak or different? Yes.

What it comes down to is conformity. Picking someone up for something as simple as not cutting their hair was a pretty easy way to determine who would potentially not follow other orders with more serious consequences.

Nothing about being an Infanteer is that hard. Literally any able bodied person can attempt it, until it gets crappy. It takes a certain type to want to continue to do it, inspite of that.

It's a gang mentality that has existed in frontline units forever.

I look forward to watching the consequences of all of this play out and its implementation from the comfort of my retirement

…but get to higher speed, lower drag, fewer sparks, and that rote conformity with minimal divergence becomes a lot less important, compared with the ability to do the deal…

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

…but get to higher speed, lower drag, fewer sparks, and that rote conformity with minimal divergence becomes a lot less important, compared with the ability to do the deal…

Yep, but that's the diff between the 1% and everyone else.

Even then, results aren't always desirable and gang mentality rears it's head in other ways:

Brereton Report - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

…but get to higher speed, lower drag, fewer sparks, and that rote conformity with minimal divergence becomes a lot less important, compared with the ability to do the deal…

To add, there is a reason we treat recruits a certain way vs trained members. Heck there us even a difference in line units WRT rifle companies vs recce/snipers.

 

[SupersonicMax]

Yep, but that's the diff between the 1% and everyone else.

But it doesn’t have to be. Prioritizing excellence and continuous improvement in our work should be the norm once someone is past OFP.

 

[Brad Sallows]

putting on a worn out, or ill fitting uniform every day for years wears people down.

The old work dress might as well have been a deliberate attempt to humiliate people into quitting, even if brand new and well-fitted.

Gloves and gabardines...really enjoyed being soaked to the skin a couple of time on Nov 11 in Vancouver because a couple of people didn't have gloves. I remember the people who enforced that sh!t.

 

[btrudy]

Which, I suppose is your choice. Not respecting a rule of your employer has potential consequences. If it can't trust you to follow the little ones, don't be surprised when they don't trust you to follow the big ones.

Who said anything about not following them? I follow the regulations. I don't like them. And I'm glad they're changing.

I have a hard time believing anyone joining the military didn't expect that parades, appearance and deportment wasn't a part of the job.

Just because something is part of the job doesn't mean that it should be part of the job. Just because we do something (or hopefully soon did something), doesn't mean that thing is something that's done for a good reason. Just because someone at some point had the authority to mandate that all hair shall be a natural colour and people need to adhere to traditional gender roles when it comes to appearance does not mean that anyone is obligated to agree with the rules.

I am very glad that we're starting to get rid of aspects of the job which do nothing but impose outdated aesthetic standards on people without any reason that could be tied to increasing our actual job. Because at the end of the day, the controlled application of violence is what we do, and all those parades and haircuts etc should rightly be considered completely unimportant when compared to that. We're not the Canadian People Who Look Sharp in Uniform, we're the Canadian Armed Forces.

We're often in the habit of doing things just because we've been doing those things forever, long after doing those things have had any benefit (assuming they ever did). But as the saying goes, tradition is just peer pressure from dead people.

Maybe we can also start getting rid of some other aspects of our "traditions" which aren't actually helpful anymore. Change of Command parades for example, are IMHO nothing but a giant ego stroking exercise for senior officers, that also manage to waste untold manhours in the process. My understanding is that, after having seen what happened with taking them virtual in the pandemic, the RCAF seems to have come to the realization that, yeah, that was a giant waste of time and has shitcanned any further Change of Command parades. Perhaps the rest of the CAF could follow suit.

At least in the military there is a process for transgression or pushing of envelopes. Try telling your team leader at Macdonald's that you are wearing jeans and a t-shirt because you're just not into shades of grey and ball hats, and see if you make it to shift change. Everybody has 'stupid' rules.

Now you're comparing apples to hand grenades. The CAF is not getting rid of the concept of having a uniform. We will still have stuff that we will need to wear. That's not a particular issue. The issue is the manner in which the portions of the dress instructions regarding hair, nails, etc impact a person's ability to properly express themselves in a manner they see fit while off duty. Since I can't just go and rebleach and dye my hair each time I get off duty.

Having some form of visual identifier that you're in the CAF is quite reasonable. I'm pretty sure that literally no one here has ever advocated getting rid of uniforms entirely.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

But it doesn’t have to be. Prioritizing excellence and continuous improvement in our work should be the norm once someone is past OFP.

You probably don't realize it, but you're in that 1%.
While I think your stance is admirable, I just don't think, based on my experience, that it's reflective of the reality.

 

[Good2Golf]

You probably don't realize it, but you're in that 1%.
While I think your stance is admirable, I just don't think, based on my experience, that it's reflective of the reality.

HB, I think that % also varies by service. I’d argue that SSM is closer to being substantive/majority in the RCAF. Any service that comes up with an operationally-functional goretex raincoat that keeps you dry AND has fleece-lined pockets probably get greater personnel buy-in than one that keeps you in a cheap plastic one that smells like dog vomit and keeps more sweat inside than it protects from rain outside.

 

[stoker dave]

I will offer my perspective. As I have said, much of my work is on large construction sites with various historic - waste hazards.

The construction workers show up to do a job. They don't care so much about their appearance but they certainly don't go for extremes of dyed hair, ear rings, piercings, etc. I might describe some of them as 'unkempt' in appearance. They are required to conform to site safety procedures as relate to long hair, facial hair, personal protective clothing and equipment, etc. Non-conformance with the site rules will result in immediate termination.

I was recently at a site meeting for all senior project staff - project manager, senior engineers, site superintendents and site supervisors (maybe 25 people). No clients or vice-presidents about. Everyone at the meeting was properly turned out. Probably 90% of the people had haircuts conforming to current DND standards.

These are serious people, doing serious work and there is an extreme focus on the work at hand. People are treated with respect all around as the project cannot succeed unless every part of the project succeeds.

From my perspective, when you treat people with the professionalism and respect they deserve, they respond accordingly. No one is trying to 'make a statement' or 'push the envelope' with their dress and deportment. They are there to work. They see a path for advancement in the company and know that path depends on their and the project's success. Their deportment is careful as they know their peers and subordinates are watching. No one compels them to behave or dress in a certain way - they just know what to do.

As an aside, this project will soon be receiving an award from a major provincial body as 'project of the year'. An indication of success.

 

[Quirky]

In my career, I have had longer than average hair on an almost regular basis (I normally get a haircut monthly and yes, my hair touches my ears towards the end of that time period) and boots that were not always black.

You’ve just described every fast jet pilot in the RCAF.