Author Topic: Trades OPEN / Closed ?  (Read 472058 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline KingofKeys

  • Member
  • ****
  • 2,805
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 115
Re: About Getting Into Infantry
« Reply #50 on: August 18, 2009, 14:19:03 »
Hi,

I phoned Sgt. XXXX (probably the Sgt you talked to) this morning after reading the above post and he told me that 32nd CER was full, but I had already been accounted for (I handed in my application in late April). So I made it in time assuming I get the thumbs up from the RMO.
Ah, that is good to hear! I just wish I had applied earlier as well. And yes, Sgt. XXXX was the one who conducted the very humorous information session.

Edited by Roy Harding for PERSEC
« Last Edit: August 20, 2009, 14:01:18 by Roy Harding »

Offline Kabalis

  • Guest
  • *
  • 170
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 14
Re: About Getting Into Infantry
« Reply #51 on: August 18, 2009, 15:58:28 »
Can anyone give me the odds of getting an offer for infantry in April 2010 if I have the following:

1. Entry Plan: Recruit School By-pass (due to my previous service)
2. Already on the merit list

would any of you kind CFRC troops give me a guesstimate on how good my chances are?  I was told that if I chose another trade, that I'd leave pretty quick, but I have my mind dead set on infantry and don't think I'd be really happy doing anything else.  (I'm ex-infantry and I'm returning to Infantry... hopefully).  any opinions would be greatly appreciated.

P.S- For any of you new people who are going infantry, here's a tip:  Try your best to be careful.  The last thing you want is to get a training injury during hand to hand combat 2 weeks from graduation in LFCA TC Meaford's 14 week infantry course and end up being stuck in physiotherapy for nine months with no end in sight.  (the reason I VR'ed, figured id get out and try again after seeing that some guys were stuck there for 2+ years,  get myself in better shape and know what to expect for round 2... BIG mistake)

Thanks in advance ^^

Offline Otis

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • 12,760
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 323
  • Old enough to know better, too foolish to quit!
Re: About Getting Into Infantry
« Reply #52 on: August 18, 2009, 16:08:02 »
Can anyone give me the odds of getting an offer for infantry in April 2010

Short Answer: NO

Longer answer: There are several variables, not the LEAST of which is how many Infantry (if any) we're hiring next year, which none of us knows until CFRG HQ tells us (sometime next year, usually late April).

There is also variables in your file etc. ... I know you said you were merit listed, but how long ago was your Medical (because it DOES expire ... and I don't really want to know, I'm just giving examples) etc. these things can all affect your "odds".

If your heart is set on Infantry, best to just wait, keep calling in to your CFRC every couple of months, make sure your stuff stays up-to-date and be patient.

Otis
Since I've been on the new medication, it's become MUCH easier to ignore the Stupid people.

Offline owa

  • Episode 666
  • Member
  • ****
  • 2,675
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 185
Re: About Getting Into Infantry
« Reply #53 on: August 18, 2009, 16:35:00 »
For me, I've decided that I'm just going to spend between now and April getting in the best shape possible.

I'll hand everything in come December or January and hopefully be good to go in April!

It's funny, I almost got in a fight outside a bar a couple nights ago, but because my record is currently clean and because I don't want anything to give me grief down the road when trying to get into the Army, I had be more diplomatic (puss out) :p.

Al'ls well that ends well though!

Offline Kabalis

  • Guest
  • *
  • 170
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 14
Re: About Getting Into Infantry
« Reply #54 on: August 20, 2009, 10:28:43 »
According to the Strtegic Intake Plan (SIP) for FY 10/11, the amount for Infantry is:
400 PPCLI
300 R22eR
300 RCR


Can anyone confirm this?

Offline GAP

  • Semper Fi
  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Legend
  • *
  • 204,250
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 12,865
Re: About Getting Into Infantry
« Reply #55 on: August 20, 2009, 10:42:21 »
Can anyone confirm this?

Go look it up and confirm it yourself
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I´m not so sure about the universe

Online PMedMoe

    is now a flat-faced civvy.... :).

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 245,290
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 9,977
Re: About Getting Into Infantry
« Reply #56 on: August 20, 2009, 10:45:02 »
Can anyone confirm this?

PM Robodad and ask for the source.
"A good traveler has no fixed plans, and is not intent on arriving".
~ Lao Tzu~

Offline Roy Harding

    He\'s Back.

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 14,965
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 3,231
Re: About Getting Into Infantry
« Reply #57 on: August 20, 2009, 14:02:54 »
Folks - watch the PERSEC.  If the Sergeant in question wants his name all over public internet forums, he'll post it himself.


Roy Harding
Milnet.ca Staff
I love mankind.  It's people I can't stand.

Linus van Pelt

Offline Larkvall

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Member
  • *
  • 21,215
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 248
Re: About Getting Into Infantry
« Reply #58 on: August 20, 2009, 14:33:48 »
Okay Roy.

Offline Pusser

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 72,230
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,521
Re: About Getting Into Infantry
« Reply #59 on: August 20, 2009, 16:27:28 »
Despite pressure from recruiters, my advice is to NEVER, NEVER, NEVER put down another choice of occupation if you would not seriously consider a career in that occupation.  If infantry is the only thing you want (although that choice boggles MY mind) then that is all you should put down.  If you're flexible, by all means put down other choices, but remember that there is a good possibility that you will be offered only your second or third.  I cannot count the number of folks I've had working for me over the years who were less than enthusiastic about their careers because they were in occupations that they had joined because they were available as opposed to what they wanted.  One final note, a favourite recruiting line (lie) is that if you join this occupation now, you can remuster later.  Yes, this is theoretically possible, but exceptionally difficult.  The reason is that in order to remuster, your current occupation has to be willing to let you go and your proposed new occupation has to be willing to accept you.  If you're not doing well in your current occupation, the other one won't accept you because they don't want somebody else's deadwood.  If you're doing well in your current occupation, they won't want to let you go.  The remuster process is rife with frustration.  In short, make your choices carefully at the Recruiting Centre.
Sure, apes read Nietzsche.  They just don't understand it.

Offline Otis

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • 12,760
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 323
  • Old enough to know better, too foolish to quit!
Re: About Getting Into Infantry
« Reply #60 on: August 20, 2009, 21:29:32 »
Folks - watch the PERSEC.  If the Sergeant in question wants his name all over public internet forums, he'll post it himself.


Roy Harding
Milnet.ca Staff


Sorry Roy, I should have thought to mention that!  :oops:
Since I've been on the new medication, it's become MUCH easier to ignore the Stupid people.

Offline Otis

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • 12,760
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 323
  • Old enough to know better, too foolish to quit!
Re: About Getting Into Infantry
« Reply #61 on: August 20, 2009, 21:41:53 »
Despite pressure from recruiters, {SNIP}
One final note, a favourite recruiting line (lie) is that if you join this occupation now, you can remuster later. 


Hmmm, somebody else trying to get my dander up!  :clubinhand:

SO ... which year exactly did YOU work in the Recruiting Center where you were taught to lie to people?

According to your profile, you are a LCdr with 26 years experience currently working at NDHQ?!

If this is true, I recommend that you try to be a little more diplomatic when discussing others' performance. As I've cautioned other officers here, calling someone a liar is a serious accusation,and someone looking at your profile is going to add extra weight to your opinion.

We do not lie, mislead, sell or any other action. We tell people the truth, and they often hear what they want to hear (it's human nature) ... I take GREAT offence to anyone accusing me of lying! In fact, just TODAY I told someone almost EXACTLY the same words that you have used WRT re-mustering.

Furthermore, I'd put MY record of lies-to-applicants up against the record of lies-coming-out-of-NDHQ ANY day ... (score 0 - ???)
Since I've been on the new medication, it's become MUCH easier to ignore the Stupid people.

Online mariomike

  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 413,590
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 7,048
    • The job.
Re: About Getting Into Infantry
« Reply #62 on: August 20, 2009, 21:52:53 »
If you're not doing well in your current occupation, the other one won't accept you because they don't want somebody else's deadwood.  If you're doing well in your current occupation, they won't want to let you go.

That's a real "Catch-22"!
Get on the bus. Take a ride with us.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2lSGnPl-ww

aesop081

  • Guest
Re: About Getting Into Infantry
« Reply #63 on: August 20, 2009, 22:00:23 »
That's a real "Catch-22"!

It is not. Remustering is not impossible by any means and is not
Quote
exceptionally difficult
when it comes to most trades. Being good at your current MOC serves very much in your favour. The major hurdle is the personel levels of your current trade. If the trade is "red', then your chances are very slim. In my experience, the Navy and the army make it difficult for their members to OT by using various scare tactics and the lack of knowledge of applicable orders by a good proportion of their members.

Offline Roy Harding

    He\'s Back.

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 14,965
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 3,231
Re: About Getting Into Infantry
« Reply #64 on: August 20, 2009, 23:49:25 »
Pusser:

Stay in your lanes.  It's readily apparent that you don't know what you're talking about regarding recruiting.  And accusing ANY branch of having a policy of telling lies is bordering on trolling.

You're fairly new around here - consider this your freebie.


Roy Harding
Milnet.ca Staff
I love mankind.  It's people I can't stand.

Linus van Pelt

Offline Kabalis

  • Guest
  • *
  • 170
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 14
Re: About Getting Into Infantry
« Reply #65 on: August 21, 2009, 09:03:30 »
I don't know or pretend to know anything about the whole OT process as I haven't been a part of it, I can only comment on what I have observed in the past.  due to the fact that I was going through a really bad break up at the same time as dealing with a training injury, I had a lot of down time in Meaford and decided to VR (biggest mistake EVER!  I'm slapping myself for being so dumb).  I was only a pte(B) and along with the other guys and a few girls in meaford, I have observed that a OT for a non-trained private to take a very long time (6-12 months, but thats joust going by MY observation).  I can only imagine that once you're trade trained and with your regiment, that it would be even MORE difficult to OT after the government has invested all that time and money into you. 

I'm in no way an expert on the matter, just voicing my observations and opinions.  take it easy ^^

Online PMedMoe

    is now a flat-faced civvy.... :).

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 245,290
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 9,977
Re: About Getting Into Infantry
« Reply #66 on: August 21, 2009, 09:40:58 »
Minor point:  If you are an untrained Pte, it is not an OT but a trade reassignment.
"A good traveler has no fixed plans, and is not intent on arriving".
~ Lao Tzu~

aesop081

  • Guest
Re: About Getting Into Infantry
« Reply #67 on: August 21, 2009, 09:46:44 »
I have observed that a OT for a non-trained private to take a very long time

When a member is untrained, it is not called an OT.


Quote
it would be even MORE difficult to OT after the government has invested all that time and money into you.

It is not "even more difficult" and the amount of money invested in you is not a factor. The fact is that the OT process is fairly straight forward. As i said in my previous post, the state of one's current trade is the big hurdle. The number of spots available in the new trade is the other.

Where the "difficulty" comes from is when a member's current trade/unit says BS like " the unit doesnt support your request" or other such nonsense. This demonstrates either a complete lack of understanding of the policies governing OTs or an outright attempt to keep the member from OT-ing by taking advantage of his/her knowledge of the rules.

Once a member applies for OT, the CoC is required to forward the application on, plain and simple. The CO of the member's current unit gets to say his peace during the process of course ( there is a form for that) but the OT application cannot be stopped at the platoon/company/whatever-level as i have seen many times.

Quote
I'm in no way an expert on the matter,

I'm no expert either, just one guy who remustered.

Offline Eye In The Sky

  • I can count to potato!
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 174,855
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 7,325
    • VP INTERNATIONAL
Re: About Getting Into Infantry
« Reply #68 on: August 21, 2009, 10:59:35 »
I'll wade in here with the OT content of the thread, as I've done 2 OTs (Feb '07 and Mar '09) and found myself battling the CoC and Career Manager for my OT to AES Op from ATIS Tech. 

NO trade is closed to OTs out.  A policy came out sometime in 2005 stating the policy for OTs/remustering out of Reg Force trades, based on the health of the trade.  There are a few terms that need to be understood:

PML = preferred manning level.  This is the # of people in any given trade that the CF says it requires.
 
TES = trained effective strength.  This is the actual # of people in a given trade that are trained up to the OFP (Occupational Function Point) of that trade. 

*The OFPs of trades are set out in the Occupational Specification document and vary by trade. 

*DIN/IntraNet Link to find your Occ Specs and General Specs:

http://hr.ottawa-hull.mil.ca/dgmp/dpgr/engraph/specifications_e.asp?sec=2&doc=occspec

The difference between the PML and TES is used to determine a trade's 'health'.  (TES # divided by PML # x 100).  A trade that is less than 5% below PML is Green, a trade that is between 5-10% below PML is Amber, and a trade that is more than 10% below PML is Red.

Example, Widget Tech has a PML of 1300, and a TES of 950.  The trade would be at 73% and therefore Red.

For OTs out, a Green trade OUTCAP (the number of people allowed to OT out) is 2% of the TES, a Amber trade OUTCAP is 1% of the TES and a Red trade OUTCAP is 0.5% of the TES.

Example, Brass Magnet Tech has a TES of 500 and a PML of 900.  At 56% the trade would be Red (REALLY Red :)), however, 0.5% of the TES would be allowed to OT out (2.5 people).

This policy was published in a letter on the ISS DIN site before ISS moved from CFRG to DGMC, but I don't see the link to it now.  I do have a copy of it somewhere, however I can't say that is hasn't been removed/superceded. 

The link below to the DGMC ISS Section has links to all the trade TES/PML #s that are used in OTs/remusters, including OUTCAP #s for this and previous FYs, Occupation Status Matrix and other documents related to this.

http://hr.ottawa-hull.mil.ca/dgmc/engraph/InServiceSelection_e.asp?Opensub=12


We all know or have heard of the stories of Pte Bloggins or Cpl Smith who asked about an OT to their Sgt/WO/whatever and were told no one is allowed to OT out of infantry/Bos'n/*insert trade name*.  That is pure BS.  I went thru all this BS with my last CoC and Career Manager and they lost.  Not because I am so friggin' smart, I simply referred to the authoritive directives and policies, staffed my memo's and correspondence properly and wouldn't take no for an answer.

Simply put, CFAO 11-12 is the authoritve document governing remusters/OTs/MOC reassignments for Reg Force NCMs.  Period.  From the DGMC ISS site:

AVOTP:
CFAO 11-12 Occupation Transfer of Non-Commissioned Members Regular Force describes the policy and procedures that guide the transfer of non-commissioned members (NCMs) from one military occupation (MOC) to another. Paragraph 25 of this CFAO lists the other references that are related to this order.

Although CFAO 11-12 has not been officially updated in several years it is still considered current. While some of the terms and organizations that this order refers to have changed, the policy and procedures that are explained remain essentially in tact.

COTP:
CFAO 11-12 is the reference that prescribes the policy and procedures of the COTP program. This program is designed to allow eligible members to apply for occupation transfer to the following MOSIDs on a continuing basis.

LOTP:
CFAO 11-12 is the reference that prescribes the policy and procedures of the LOTP program. View the LOTP Data Base to make sure we have received your application. Since offers are made to LOTP applicants based on the date of their application, you can also use this database as a guide in order to estimate where you sit on the waiting list for your MOC choice(s).

The following factors play a key role in determining when or whether an LOTP applicant will receive an offer for occupation transfer:

The number of training positions available in the chosen MOC.
The number of training serials (courses) the training organization runs each year.
The number of LOTP applicants who are applying for the chosen MOC.
It is imperative to note that the information provided here may change as a result of many parameters that affect the OT process.
__________________________________________________________________________________________

*MOC reassignments are not listed under ISS as the mbr is still on the CDA BTL list IIRC.

The ONLY amendment to the CFAO is found in ADM (HR-Mil) Instruction 05/05, specifically Annex G, Appendix 1 - CFAO Amendments.  (link below to CFA0 11-12 and ADM (HR-Mil) Instr 05/05 Annex G Appendix 1) *IntraNet links only

http://admfincs.mil.ca/admfincs/subjects/cfao/011-12_e.asp

http://hr3.ottawa-hull.mil.ca/docs/instruction/instructions/engraph/0505_AnnG1_e.asp

OTs are not impossible, however:

1. there are restrictions on the # of people allowed to OT out of a trade in a given FY (re: PML/TES, health, OUTCAP #s);
2. the prerequisites a mbr MUST meet are laid out in CFAO 11-12 for any VOT (Compulsory, Voluntary, MOC Reassignments and Career Progression Occupation Transfers);
3. you are also required to meet any/all educational/medical/other requirements for the trade you are attempting to OT in to; and
4. an OT is something you apply for; there is no guaruntee you will get it.  You can hope for it.  Don't plan on it.

EITS








"Stop telling everyone I'm an *******; I like to see the look on their face when they realize it for themselves..."

Offline Journeyman

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Legend
  • *
  • 469,840
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 11,850
Re: About Getting Into Infantry
« Reply #69 on: August 21, 2009, 11:11:41 »
Now you just know that your trade examples are going to cause a whole flurry of traffic, seeking info on Widget Tech and Brass Magnet Tech   ;D


(which will somehow end up with another six bitter AT threads bitchin' about the Mods  ::) )

Offline Eye In The Sky

  • I can count to potato!
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 174,855
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 7,325
    • VP INTERNATIONAL
Re: About Getting Into Infantry
« Reply #70 on: August 21, 2009, 12:10:56 »
If thats the case...

*a picture is worth a thousand words*

"Stop telling everyone I'm an *******; I like to see the look on their face when they realize it for themselves..."

Offline Jingo

  • ...Log...
  • Member
  • ****
  • 1,929
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 168
Re: About Getting Into Infantry
« Reply #71 on: August 21, 2009, 12:12:18 »
If thats the case...

*a picture is worth a thousand words*

I used to have one by my desk that said "I CFAT People"

Everyone like that!

Offline ONT

  • Member
  • ****
  • 6,419
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 162
Re: About Getting Into Infantry
« Reply #72 on: August 21, 2009, 14:23:07 »
Apparently there is no more recruiting for Infantry until April 2010. My question is, if I'm doing a CT would I still have to wait til then to be accepted?

Offline Otis

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • 12,760
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 323
  • Old enough to know better, too foolish to quit!
Re: About Getting Into Infantry
« Reply #73 on: August 21, 2009, 21:03:17 »
Apparently there is no more recruiting for Infantry until April 2010. My question is, if I'm doing a CT would I still have to wait til then to be accepted?

CT is different from Direct Entry ... numbers for CT do not count against the SIP (Strategic Intake Plan) as they do not increase the overall number of persons in the CF.

Having said that though,depending on how long your CT application takes, I can see you running into the training backlog created by the full intake ... but that's just speculation on my part ...

Otis
Since I've been on the new medication, it's become MUCH easier to ignore the Stupid people.

Offline Otis

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • 12,760
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 323
  • Old enough to know better, too foolish to quit!
Re: About Getting Into Infantry
« Reply #74 on: August 21, 2009, 21:06:29 »
EITS:

I TOTALLY love your post about OT!!

I am going to steal it and print it and any time anyone asks me about "If I get in now as a ****, can I change later into a ****" I'm going to hand them this.

THEN maybe people will stop accusing Recruiters of lying to people!  :threat:

Great post ... very detailed (and MAN you have way more patience than me for looking up crap)

Otis
Since I've been on the new medication, it's become MUCH easier to ignore the Stupid people.