Author Topic: Imposed Restriction (IR) Merged Thread  (Read 70976 times)

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Offline Bluebulldog

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Re: Question for any Admin gods out there.
« Reply #50 on: October 07, 2011, 08:13:45 »
Indeed.

As a reservist, I've not had to go through a relocation.

I am however a Property Manager civvy side.
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Offline Good2Golf

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Re: Question for any Admin gods out there.
« Reply #51 on: October 07, 2011, 09:51:19 »
Seen. 

As PMedMoe says, BGRS in this context is the civilian company that is mandated to provide relcation services to CF members on posting that in years past were provided by CF clerks.  Starting with Royal Lepage Relocation Services then by Brookfield Global Relocation Services, the military posting/relocation services were devolved through the alternate services delivery (ASD) trend that began in the 90's.  Apprently, the ASD intent for relocation services was to provide BETTER services for LESS MONEY.  "Some" have found that their "mileage may have varied" with the actual services provided when compared to when the military provided its own services. 


Regards
G2G

Offline Pusser

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Re: Question for any Admin gods out there.
« Reply #52 on: October 07, 2011, 11:32:16 »
Seen. 

As PMedMoe says, BGRS in this context is the civilian company that is mandated to provide relcation services to CF members on posting that in years past were provided by CF clerks.  Starting with Royal Lepage Relocation Services then by Brookfield Global Relocation Services, the military posting/relocation services were devolved through the alternate services delivery (ASD) trend that began in the 90's.  Apprently, the ASD intent for relocation services was to provide BETTER services for LESS MONEY.  "Some" have found that their "mileage may have varied" with the actual services provided when compared to when the military provided its own services. 


Regards
G2G

In answer to the OP's question, your first course of action is to approach the landlord and ask for the money back.  If they refuse, you can then approach BGRS for reimbursement.  The regulations are quite clear that you are entitled to reimbursement of expenses incurred as a result of cancelled postings.  See CBI 209.9962 - Reimbursement on Postponement or Cancellation of a Posting, specifically:

(b) in respect of any amount the member has paid as a deposit or rent or in respect of any liability under a lease for accommodation the member was unable to occupy at the place to which the member was authorized to move prior to postponement or cancellation of the posting; and....


As someone who has been involved in the relocation business of the CF, both under the old system and under the IRP (Royal LePage and then BGRS), I can offer a little insight.

We all tend to look back through rose-coloured glasses and many folks will swear up and down that thing were better before the IRP.  This was simply not true.  Some parts may have been better, but other parts were quantitatively worse.  The worst part of all was a lack of consistency.  Every orderly room in the country (and we had a lot more of them then) interpreted regulations and policy differently and so folks on some bases were receiving things that folks on other bases were not.  Furthermore, the regulations often could not keep up with the policy changes and so we were administering relocations based on stacks of CANFORGENS, while the CFAOs we should have been using simply gathered dust in a corner.  This was all combined with an horrific lack of consistency out of DGCB that swung wildly between approving everything and approving nothing.  It was a mess.

Out of this was born the Integrated Relocation (Pilot) Program.  This was not a DND initiative, but rather a pan-government one.  Although we move more people than anyone else, we are not the only federal government organization to do it and the Government wanted everyone under the same umbrella.   It was not necessarily designed as a cost saving measure, but rather as a means of streamlining and simplifying things.  One of the biggest goals was consistency.  Another goal was to formalize and properly approve policies which were being used, but technically didn't exist (e.g.  reimbursement for home inspection and pet shipment fees wasn't actually an approved policy, but we managed it by using the Special Powers of the Minister (CBI 209.013)).  Yes, the Minister had to approve Fido and Fluffy's trip to a new home.  Obviously, this was not the best way to do this.  The process of instituting the IRP brought many things into line and formalized what had in many cases been "ad hoc" benefits.  However, there was some negative fallout in that certain benefits, which had previously been tax-free became taxable.  The fact is, they should have been taxed all along and so our benefits had actually been in violation of the Income Tax Act.  At least the didn't collect any taxes retroactively!

Based on my observations, we came out ahead on this.  Although there are frustrations (particularly where things seem to have gotten worse), I would say that overall we have a better, more flexible package with more consistency than we had before the IRP.
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Offline Good2Golf

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Re: Question for any Admin gods out there.
« Reply #53 on: October 07, 2011, 12:40:59 »
Pusser, I will agree with you that the program is theoretically more flexible than before. 

That said, when people are involved, reality and theory can be different. 

Based on my observations, we have not come out ahead on this.  I have found on numerous occasions that the onus of ensuring a move is executed properly is devolved to the member.  Three times I have been told to "review the CFIRP Annual Policy" to clarify what I am entitled to, asked the BGRS agent about what I have found, then waited while they then went back to the "mother ship" (DCBA) to confirm what the policy (which appeared clear enough in the CFIRP Annual Policy).  I have had money garnisheed of my military pay through actions of a relocation agent who believed that I had been over compensated IAW regulations/policy, only to have to fight months to have such adjustments (which were incorrect) corrected.  The sheer amount of time taken to sort these situations out, let alone the frustration and loss of personal time to address this outside of my official duties, leaves me yearning very strongly for the days when moves were the case of a half-day or two in the Base R&D section, followed by a quick visit down the hall to Base Traffic.

Your and my cases are but two of tens of thousands, and we can only speak to our personal experiences or those of whom we have spoken on the issue.  That said, I have no acquaintances who have ever maintained the position that CFIRP is "better" than the old system, so that would be at least several tens of people who had similar frustrations to me.

If the "theoretical flexibility" was actioned consistently in the spirit that the Treasury Board intended, that would be a good thing.


Regards
G2G

Offline SeaKingTacco

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Re: Question for any Admin gods out there.
« Reply #54 on: October 07, 2011, 13:47:42 »
I will echo G2G.  My issue is not with the allowances/benefits.  It is in dealing with BGRS staff, who have no discretion (and in many cases poor knowledge of the CFIRP policy manual) and must refer every non-std issue to DCBA.  I have found that the time I must personally take in administering my move (and filling out the same, mindless information on multiple, but slightly different forms) has exponentially exploded- to the point where wonder what BGRS actually does for the money they receive.  I seem to be doing all of the work.  Now, multiply this by thousands of DND moves per year.  Have we actually increased our efficiency or just downloaded the work on individual CF members?

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Re: Question for any Admin gods out there.
« Reply #55 on: October 07, 2011, 13:54:43 »
Just downloaded the work on individual CF members?

BINGO !!!!!

The effort that I and my CoC had to expend this APS to organize the door-to-door move I was forced into was beyond absurd. If that wasnt bad enough, it's been a week since my arrival and still no F&E. There has been zero flexibility.

Offline East Coaster

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Re: Question for any Admin gods out there.
« Reply #56 on: October 07, 2011, 14:34:11 »
Pusser et all,

Thank you for the specific CBI relating to my issue.  My interpretation is that I will be asking the military for reimbursement rather that BGRS.  This is immeasurably better for many reasons.  Thank you.

On another note.  If anyone out there is being posted and chooses not to sell due to market values, IR, good schools for the kids, etc.. BE ADVISED that BGRS only gives you 15 business days to decide, after your appraisal, to elect to take the real estate incentive (REI), THEY WILL NOT TELL YOU THIS!  Sorry for the all caps but this info may help another military member and their family. 

In my case I was almost out $12,000.  Also, it may be more money in your pocket to take the REI and pay for the lawyers, real estate agent, deed transfer, etc yourself.  Remember this has to do with selling or not selling your home, the move of DF&E is still paid for.

It is funny when you go to your first planning appointment and after you ask them a question they hand you an 85 page document and say "look it up".  If we ever have to go to a full scale war we should just send a few BGRS agents to the enemy to bog them down in red tape and bureaucracy.

Offline PMedMoe

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Re: Question for any Admin gods out there.
« Reply #57 on: October 08, 2011, 11:01:12 »
Thank you for the specific CBI relating to my issue.  My interpretation is that I will be asking the military for reimbursement rather that BGRS.  This is immeasurably better for many reasons.  Thank you.

Have you even talked to the landlord/rental company yet?   ???
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Offline Pusser

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Re: Question for any Admin gods out there.
« Reply #58 on: October 10, 2011, 19:48:46 »

  My interpretation is that I will be asking the military for reimbursement rather that BGRS.  This is immeasurably better for many reasons.  Thank you.


That's not what I said.  You must do it in this order:

1)  Approach the landlord (be prepared to show that you have done everything reasonably possible to get the money back.  This is a well ingrained aspect of government policy).  IF the landlord refuses, then,

2)  File a claim through BGRS.  This is a move benefit like any other (e.g. pet transportation) and is administered by BGRS.  Keep in mind that every benefit administered by BGRS has a QR&O/CBI behind it.  This one is no different.  The reason I gave this reference to you was so that you could remind BGRS should that be required, not so you could go around them (because you can't).
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Offline captloadie

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Re: Question for any Admin gods out there.
« Reply #59 on: October 11, 2011, 03:21:02 »
In my case I was almost out $12,000.  Also, it may be more money in your pocket to take the REI and pay for the lawyers, real estate agent, deed transfer, etc yourself.  Remember this has to do with selling or not selling your home, the move of DF&E is still paid for.


Here lies one of the misconceptions many members have. The IRP program isn't meant to put any money in your pocket. It's meant to get you relocated from point A to point B, without costing you anything.

Although we all have horror stories about IRP moves, I think Pusser is right when he says we look back with rose coloured glasses. Now, because it is a civilian contractor, and the policy is openly available, and literally forced upon us, we become more involved and cynical about the move. In the past, most members probably took what they were told by the clerks as gospel, and never argued. They were military members right, who knew the policy back and forth and never made mistakes right? I bet if you researched some of your pre-IRP moves, you would find out you were screwed over just as much, but because you weren't forced to take as active a role, didn't realize it.

I for one am looking forward to APS 2012, being posted back to Canada and seeing what interesting hassles evolve  8)

Offline Pusser

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Re: Question for any Admin gods out there.
« Reply #60 on: October 11, 2011, 12:41:56 »

In the past, most members probably took what they were told by the clerks as gospel, and never argued. They were military members right, who knew the policy back and forth and never made mistakes right? I bet if you researched some of your pre-IRP moves, you would find out you were screwed over just as much, but because you weren't forced to take as active a role, didn't realize it.


 :nod:  You've hit  it right on the head.

Good luck with your move home.
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Offline CountDC

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Re: Question for any Admin gods out there.
« Reply #61 on: October 11, 2011, 13:08:55 »
hmmm still having  problem with the consistency part as during my move a few years back entitlements were determined in Halifax by my rep who enquired higher up to confirm.  After I arrive in Ottawa the rep on this end again checks higher, determines the entitlement does not exist and that they have to recover the money. I was actually lucky as I was then able to go back with a "fine, then that leaves me room in my envelope to claim this stuff instead" and zero balanced the transactions rather than fighting for months.  Seems we still have the old each OR interpreting the regs their way problem.

Although - I do hear that now you continue to deal with the same rep for the entire move instead of one at each end.  Is this true as it seems to me that it would make it a lot easier?
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Offline PMedMoe

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Re: Question for any Admin gods out there.
« Reply #62 on: October 11, 2011, 13:12:53 »
Although - I do hear that now you continue to deal with the same rep for the entire move instead of one at each end.  Is this true as it seems to me that it would make it a lot easier?

That's what I was told this year.  And I did deal with the same rep.
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Re: Question for any Admin gods out there.
« Reply #63 on: October 11, 2011, 13:25:17 »
Yup, you only deal with the BGRS rep at the place of origin.

Offline magnumcharger

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Re: Imposed Restriction Question
« Reply #64 on: November 15, 2011, 12:19:05 »
I've read what has been written here with great interest!
Although my personal circumstances are not exactly the same, I am facing a similar situation in the near future.

My wife and I are a service couple, currently co-located in Halifax. My wife's contract will be expiring on January 8th 2012. My contract will be completing on Feb 29th 2012.
Upon completing her service, my wife will be moving back to our home province, and our house, to look for employment. As the PMQ we are renting in Halifax is not only in her name, but excessively expensive, we will be forced to vacate it when my wife moves. As well, the F&E will accompany her to our house, as she is entitled to a move.
My sole income will not be able to cover the cost of our house and an apartment in Halifax.
This leaves me without a place to stay for two months until I release.
I submitted a memorandum through my CoC to my CM requesting a posting to the Base closest to my house in order to complete my term of service, and carry out my clearances. I've already been informed by my CoC that they would not support my request, and have indicated so to my CM.
Apparently, (so I was informed), my qualifications are such that my place of work would experience difficulty functioning if I were to leave. I find this excuse to lack credibility as I'm releasing in February anyway. My unit is going to have to quickly develop a game plan to deal with my loss, and it's impact on operations.

My question is thus: Am I entitled to any form of support, IR or otherwise, to facilitate my cost of living in the Halifax area?
Thanks.

Offline PMedMoe

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Re: Imposed Restriction Question
« Reply #65 on: November 15, 2011, 12:38:30 »
I would suggest requesting to live in barracks for the short period required.  Since your spouse is moving of her own accord, and not for service reasons, I have my doubts as to whether you will be entitled to SE.
"A good traveler has no fixed plans, and is not intent on arriving".
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Offline CountDC

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Re: Imposed Restriction Question
« Reply #66 on: November 15, 2011, 13:15:17 »
I agree that it lacks credibility too.  you are talking about less than 2 months.

You will be entitled to a move too along with the special relocation days (2 or 3, never can recall which is for the losing end).  What other leave will you have to burn off before the 29th?  While you be flying when you move or will you have a vehicle to drive?  Makes a difference in travel days. My move flying was one day, driving was 3 days.  This can all build into an actual small amount of time at your current work which in turn lessons the credibility.  All depends on how much you want to burn your bridges.

I would compile all my leave days, calculate everything out for a departure date and then request barracks for the period you will be on the ground.  Mind you I am also the type that would save as much annual as I could for then.

Just out of curiousity.  Is the 29 Feb your choice?  just wondering as it is an odd date for a release.  Looking at the calender if I was a release clerk I would recommend to the member to elect the 4 Mar as the release date instead.  4 More days pay for nothing as you would earn 2 more days leave to cover the rest of the week.
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Offline Pusser

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Re: Imposed Restriction Question
« Reply #67 on: November 15, 2011, 13:50:06 »
Some other things to consider:

1)  Your wife does not have to move immediately upon release.

2)  You can still stay in the PMQ if you are still serving (just have it transferred to your name).

So, why doesn't she stay in Halifax until you are released and then you both move together?  Keep also in mind that upon release, your wife will be entitled to a number of release and/or EI benefits that may help to tide you over financially until your release and move.  Even if you run up your debt a little bit in the interim, your release benefits will likely cover the loss.
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Offline emanthal

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Imposed Restriction - Transportation and Accommodation question
« Reply #68 on: November 21, 2011, 12:36:55 »
G'Day,

I'm in the process of CTing from PRes to Reg I'm expecting to get posted to Kingston in the new year.   I'm planning to go on IR and I've read the IRP docs, however I have a few of questions that I havent been able to find an answer to anywhere.  Just trying to do some research so I don't go crazy waiting for the official offer. 

Accomodations:
1. I'm pretty sure that Kingston does not have available space on base ATT, so I will be looking for an apartment off-base.  Will I be given some options by the IR folks, or is it completely up to me to find a place that meets the requirments? 
2. Does anyone know of a good place to start looking, other than the usual online apartment rental sources?

Transportation
3. I have a motorbike as my only vehicle.  Am I able to rent a small truck to move my belongings and bike, or am I going to be forced to ship everything seperately?

Thanks for any help

Offline PMedMoe

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Re: Imposed Restriction - Transportation and Accommodation question
« Reply #69 on: November 21, 2011, 12:43:57 »
Apparently, you can rent a vehicle only if you are within 250 km of the new place of duty.

Quote
rent a vehicle (maximum size – mini van) to transport their personal effects to new place of duty and return when they are within 250 km of their new place of duty. No overnight stay is authorized. CF members must have insurance on the rental vehicle.

http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dgcb-dgras/pd/rel-rei/aps-paa-2009/chapter-chapitre-03-eng.asp#art-03-04-06
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Offline emanthal

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Re: Imposed Restriction - Transportation and Accommodation question
« Reply #70 on: November 21, 2011, 12:52:45 »
Apparently I did not read close enough.  "CF members must ship their PMV under the HGRS contract system when the service is available." 

OK, question 3 tentatively answered.

Any takers on questoin 1 and 2?

Offline PMedMoe

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Re: Imposed Restriction - Transportation and Accommodation question
« Reply #71 on: November 21, 2011, 13:03:14 »
Apparently I did not read close enough.  "CF members must ship their PMV under the HGRS contract system when the service is available." 

I've been posted on IR twice and have never shipped my vehicle.
"A good traveler has no fixed plans, and is not intent on arriving".
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Offline emanthal

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Re: Imposed Restriction - Transportation and Accommodation question
« Reply #72 on: November 21, 2011, 13:18:58 »
Doesn't mean you must ship your vehicle. Means if you do, it has to be done through the HGRS contract.

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Re: Imposed Restriction - Transportation and Accommodation question
« Reply #73 on: November 21, 2011, 13:24:12 »
Doesn't mean you must ship your vehicle. Means if you do, it has to be done through the HGRS contract.

Okay and what does that have to do with renting a vehicle to move your belongings?  Scratch that, I notice you asked about renting a vehicel to move your bike and belongings.

"A good traveler has no fixed plans, and is not intent on arriving".
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Offline Pusser

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Re: Imposed Restriction - Transportation and Accommodation question
« Reply #74 on: November 21, 2011, 13:27:50 »
Generally you are on your own to find a place to live.  However, you should contact the IR clerk in OR in Kingston.  He/she may have a list of local places that meet the criteria (IR clerks often do).  I also wouldn't be too quick to discount the availability of single quarters in Kingston, which you must use if suitable and available.

Yes you can ship your motocycle as your PMOV.  You also have the option to drive it and claim mileage as well as meals and accomodations en route.  You can also ship 500 lbs of unaccompanied baggage at public expense (through CMTT).
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