Author Topic: Allowances - Post Living Differential (PLD) [MERGED]  (Read 471883 times)

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Offline Torlyn

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Re: Allowances - Post Living Differential (PLD) [MERGED]
« Reply #50 on: March 04, 2007, 23:23:00 »

Personally I feel the CF would be better served by standardizing the administration of the Forces through a non-military agency because as long as members require change to get promotional PERs there will be no stability on policies such as PLD.

How do you believe a non-military body would be better capable of making policy decisions for the CF?  It seems that you're asking a governmental body to create and institute those changes with no input from the military.  This would be an improvement?  I'm not sure how the results would be more stable, given the fickleness of governments.  Perhaps I misunderstood?

T

Offline Barrel Nut

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Re: Allowances - Post Living Differential (PLD) [MERGED]
« Reply #51 on: March 05, 2007, 01:44:06 »
Lets look at it this way, our pays (gross) are seldom jerked around with, they are stable for the most part, why? because its controlled by Treasury Board not the CF directly.   Removing allowances from the CF Admin and placing them into an outside dept would allow for more input on our part, better review practices, more accountability, more accurate accounting thus leading to a more stable system (grant you this will cost).  The CF's track record on this issue is lacking, what was once done to help members has only turned into another dent in the ole moral footlocker.

One final note:  PLD does have an effect on moral, lowering it when your posted to someplace like Toronto would be senseless.  I'm personally am up for posting this year, I have a few choices before me: take the posting, go IR or just get out.  The cost of living and the PLD rate in the area I am posted to will be part of my decision because I rather stick it out here with what I have and as a civy as opposed to uproot again (7th time) and live poor somewhere else, PLD was supposed to help stop that from happening.

Offline FinClk

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Re: Allowances - Post Living Differential (PLD) [MERGED]
« Reply #52 on: March 05, 2007, 09:25:46 »
Lets look at it this way, our pays (gross) are seldom jerked around with, they are stable for the most part, why? because its controlled by Treasury Board not the CF directly.   Removing allowances from the CF Admin and placing them into an outside dept would allow for more input on our part, better review practices, more accountability, more accurate accounting thus leading to a more stable system (grant you this will cost).  The CF's track record on this issue is lacking, what was once done to help members has only turned into another dent in the ole moral footlocker.
Quote from: CBI 205.45(1)
PLD rates are set annually based on a Treasury Board approved methodology.

The TB approved methodology includes using data provided from various sources:
Quote
- The latest Statistics Canada information on family spending patterns;
- Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation (CMHC) data on typical hosing types;
- National Defence data on the military population at each place of duty. A location with a higher number of military personnel will have a larger impact on the local economy than a location with a lower Canadian Forces population. For example, Ottawa compared to Moncton; and
- Actual cost of living data in a wide variety of categories at all places of duty in Canada. Examples of these categories include: total annual cost of transportation; household / renter insurance costs; the cost of utilities; and various goods and services like the cost of food and medical care.

So whichever track record you may perceive as lacking, the fact is that the calculation of PLD was made in conformity with guidelines established by the TB. In no instance was this a "CF Admin" issue, but simply that the kitty is running on empty, and that despite the method above some areas were not being fairly represented.

The intent of PLD is to stabilize the overall cost of living for Canadian Forces members, the fact that it affects moral is but ancilliary in its' establishement.

Offline Aden_Gatling

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Re: Allowances - Post Living Differential (PLD) [MERGED]
« Reply #53 on: March 05, 2007, 15:31:54 »
The intent of PLD is to stabilize the overall cost of living for Canadian Forces members,

If Rental Rates have anything to do with PLD, someone is fudging the numbers somewhere ... it doesn't even come close to "stabilizing" the cost of living.

Example: cheapest 2-bdrm house (PMQs, by far the cheapest accomodations) in Vancouver costs $550 more than the equivalent in Comox ($1085 vs. $535); there is a far greater discrepancy in market rates.  PLD for Vancouver is $517 before tax!   :o

Of course transportation, insurance and pretty much everything else is more expensive (in many cases *far* more expensive ) in Vancouver than Comox.  Taxes are of course the same.

I defy anyone to make sense of that.
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Offline SupersonicMax

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Re: Allowances - Post Living Differential (PLD) [MERGED]
« Reply #54 on: March 05, 2007, 15:37:43 »
Rental Rates might be one of the factors, but it's not the only one.  You might pay less for something else in Vancouver than in Comox.

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Offline radop215

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Re: Allowances - Post Living Differential (PLD) [MERGED]
« Reply #55 on: March 12, 2007, 13:31:25 »
would it not have something to do with where the staff colleges are?  hence toronto having 5 levels of PLD and edmonton gets nothing.
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Offline FinClk

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Re: Allowances - Post Living Differential (PLD) [MERGED]
« Reply #56 on: March 12, 2007, 16:31:34 »
would it not have something to do with where the staff colleges are?
Colleges??? I can only deduce that you mean that an area can be subdivided based on the location of CF assets.

Look at the TB methodology to see how it is determined, flawed or not.

Offline Dolphin_Hunter

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Re: Allowances - Post Living Differential (PLD) [MERGED]
« Reply #57 on: March 19, 2007, 18:42:26 »
I was just looking over some information and it appears that there is a change coming, but we most likely won't see anything until after 01 Oct 07.


Offline FinClk

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Re: Allowances - Post Living Differential (PLD) [MERGED]
« Reply #58 on: March 19, 2007, 20:16:20 »
but we most likely won't see anything until after 01 Oct 07.
That is good news in deed, provided of course it remains as such. It would make sense to me that higher rate PLD area's would be informed before any other.

Offline BinRat55

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Re: Allowances - Post Living Differential (PLD) [MERGED]
« Reply #59 on: April 18, 2007, 18:42:16 »
I've often wondered about the rationale behind determining PLD rates as well as locations.  Our situation here in Gander is grim to say the least.  I would say moderate to high rents (definitely not as high as BC or Ottawa), fuel prices are at a constant buck-15 per liter (and to drive to the nearest city you're looking at 300Km easy), my (what used to be) 150.00 a pay grocery bill is now 250.00 (maybe we eat more to keep warm  ??? - oil prices are the highest in Canada)... and I could go on.

Gander receives NO PLD.  Flawed or not, it is by far perfect, and definitely confusing!! :blotto:

Did I mention we have the highest provincial tax rate in Canada?

Interesting stuff!!
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Online Simian Turner

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« Last Edit: April 18, 2007, 21:37:37 by Gunner98 »
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Offline 284_226

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Re: Allowances - Post Living Differential (PLD) [MERGED]
« Reply #61 on: April 18, 2007, 22:01:41 »
Internet policy link: http://www.forces.gc.ca/hr/dgcb/cbi/engraph/home_e.asp?sidesection=6&Section=205.45&sidecat=22&Chapter=205#205.45

Rates:  http://www.forces.gc.ca/hr/cfpn/engraph/11_05/11_05_dcba_pld_e.asp

I don't think there was an issue of anyone not being able to find information on PLD.  The issue was this:

Quote
205.45 - POST LIVING DIFFERENTIAL

(1) (Policy) Post Living Differential (PLD) is established as a means of stabilizing the overall cost of living of CF members and their families in order to maintain a relative and predictable cost of living no matter where in Canada the members are posted (excluding isolated posts). PLD rates represent the differential between the CF standard cost of living in Canada and the cost of living at established PLD areas. PLD rates are set annually based on a Treasury Board approved methodology.

Considering the last rate was set in October 05, we're way overdue for a new rate to be set (according to the policy).  It's nice that we're still getting it, but a lot can happen to a geographical area's economic picture in 18 months and it'd be nice to know what the future of PLD is.  Not hearing anything official on the subject when an adjustment is overdue isn't a very good sign.

Offline Not_So_Arty_Newbie

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Re: Allowances - Post Living Differential (PLD) [MERGED]
« Reply #62 on: April 18, 2007, 22:14:17 »
keep in mind places with little or no PLD now have an average real estate sales price close to Victoria @ 500,000 +/- such as Calgary 402,000 +/- vice say Brandon 125,000 +/- and they did say when it came out don't count on PLD, it is an allowance, just like SDA/FOA and the like. And as for it "being a condition of contract" it wasn't in my contract, or my TOS contract and likely won't be in my next TOS contract. my 2 cents

Offline 284_226

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Re: Allowances - Post Living Differential (PLD) [MERGED]
« Reply #63 on: April 18, 2007, 22:42:43 »
keep in mind places with little or no PLD now have an average real estate sales price close to Victoria @ 500,000 +/- such as Calgary 402,000 +/- vice say Brandon 125,000 +/- and they did say when it came out don't count on PLD, it is an allowance, just like SDA/FOA and the like. And as for it "being a condition of contract" it wasn't in my contract, or my TOS contract and likely won't be in my next TOS contract. my 2 cents

How many members do we have in Calgary?  :)   I think that's a drop in the bucket, as compared to the changes that have occurred in locations where we have significant numbers of personnel...

I'm also not sure what you're trying to say WRT "they did say when it came out don't count on PLD", and then you compare it to two long-standing and established allowances.  I agree it's not a "contract" issue, but any major changes to the PLD policy would likely be viewed by CF members in the same light as a major change to an environmental allowance.

Offline Not_So_Arty_Newbie

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Re: Allowances - Post Living Differential (PLD) [MERGED]
« Reply #64 on: April 18, 2007, 23:02:38 »
there are currently CFRC Cal (approx 10) 1 ASG Det Cgy (12) 41 Bde (30) plus all RSS and Cl B staff in the area, close to 2 Bty's (or Coy's) of people, not to mention the guys posted to General Dynamics Canada for one project or another, but FYI Edmonton is in the same boat PLD wise with far more people than Esquimalt has, PLD has nothing to do with how many pers in a geographical area are drawing it

Offline 284_226

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Re: Allowances - Post Living Differential (PLD) [MERGED]
« Reply #65 on: April 18, 2007, 23:09:01 »
there are currently CFRC Cal (approx 10) 1 ASG Det Cgy (12) 41 Bde (30) plus all RSS and Cl B staff in the area, close to 2 Bty's (or Coy's) of people, not to mention the guys posted to General Dynamics Canada for one project or another, but FYI Edmonton is in the same boat PLD wise with far more people than Esquimalt has, PLD has nothing to do with how many pers in a geographical area are drawing it

Actually, it does, if I understand it correctly.  If the pot of money from which PLD is drawn upon is fixed, then a relatively small number of people (such as Calgary) getting an increase to PLD would have less of an effect on the pot than would a large increase to an area such as Edmonton or Halifax.

Offline Michael O'Leary

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Re: Allowances - Post Living Differential (PLD) [MERGED]
« Reply #66 on: April 18, 2007, 23:17:23 »
That's one effect of PLD distribution, but the calculations to determine PLD rates in an area "has nothing to do with how many pers in a geographical area are drawing it".

Offline 284_226

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Re: Allowances - Post Living Differential (PLD) [MERGED]
« Reply #67 on: April 19, 2007, 06:16:19 »
That's one effect of PLD distribution, but the calculations to determine PLD rates in an area "has nothing to do with how many pers in a geographical area are drawing it".

I know, and that wasn't my claim.  Earlier posts suggested that the costs of the "pot" have skyrocketed - the crux of what I'm saying is that wouldn't be caused by a relatively small area (CF population-wise) like Calgary getting increases, it would more likely be caused by larger CF population areas getting increases to PLD.  The calculation method is the calculation method; it wouldn't be a contributing factor to a skyrocketing PLD budget.  A $100/month increase to the Edmonton area would have a far greater effect on the bottom line than would a $100 increase to the Calgary area.

In any event, we're pretty much left with "wait and see".  If someone knows what's going on with PLD, they're not tellin' (yet)...   ;)

Offline FinClk

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Re: Allowances - Post Living Differential (PLD) [MERGED]
« Reply #68 on: April 19, 2007, 06:51:10 »
Not hearing anything official on the subject when an adjustment is overdue isn't a very good sign.
To be more precise, not seeing anything official on paper is the issue as several people have heard official statements to this effect. Like anything else, until its on paper it means little.

Offline Dolphin_Hunter

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Re: Allowances - Post Living Differential (PLD) [MERGED]
« Reply #69 on: April 19, 2007, 07:03:36 »
I know they say not to count on PLD, but then why give us a living allowance if we can't count on it to help with our cost of living?? I do have a .ppt on PLD that I found on the din, once I get back to work I can forward the link on to who ever is interested.  It isn't much but it does mention a way ahead for the allowance, it also talks of revamping the allowance to be more effective.

PLD shouldn't be lumped in with SDA since it is location dependant and directly linked to cost of living.  AAA wasn't the greatest (I could never figure out the formula) but at least it didn't fluctuate as much as PLD.

 

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Re: Allowances - Post Living Differential (PLD) [MERGED]
« Reply #70 on: April 19, 2007, 08:26:45 »
I don't think there was an issue of anyone not being able to find information on PLD.  The issue was this:

You might not have had...but the only link in the topic was DWAN only accessible.  Petawawa gets nothing (and that is unlikely to change) so if you move from Ottawa with lots of choice up the Valley you lose the chump change.
The grand essentials of happiness: something to do, something to love, something to hope for.  Allan K. Chalmers

Offline molson949

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Re: Allowances - Post Living Differential (PLD) [MERGED]
« Reply #71 on: May 03, 2007, 14:15:28 »
I was wondering if anyone heard about the post living allowance for Alberta ( Edmonton ) area. The price of homes and rent in the Edmonton and area is the fifth highest now in the Canada, WOW a two bedroom rents for 750 to 900 and a three bedroom for 900 to 1200/mtn, just about half months pay for a Cpl. And here is the good news for someone posted to Edmonton this summer the ave price of a single family home is now $413,000 bucks lets do some math 300k house @ 6.5 % rate = 2000/mtn not including taxes and insurance, lets go $350000 @ 6.5 % = 2344/mtn

WOW

350k in Edmonton maybe able to get you a three bedroom half duplex, A fewyears ago PLD was 11$ in Edmonton time to review that ASAP.

However on the up side there is alot of work for spouses,and other family members in all Fields and lets not forget the price of gas at the pumps we only pay 1.06 right now sweet times.( LOL )

What warming bells need to go off before this gets look at at all levels of the chain of command and the government to protect us for helping protect others??

Pay raises are good and the salary troops get pay today have improve but is there ore that we can do??

open to comments from all

CHEERS,
MOLSON949






Offline SupersonicMax

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Re: Allowances - Post Living Differential (PLD) [MERGED]
« Reply #72 on: May 03, 2007, 18:58:38 »
Molson:  How much Alberta pays on provincial taxes again?

Max

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Re: Allowances - Post Living Differential (PLD) [MERGED]
« Reply #73 on: May 03, 2007, 19:09:47 »
While having a low provincial tax might be nice, it certainly doesn't offset the recently skyrocketing prices in real estate in Edmonton.
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Offline SupersonicMax

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Re: Allowances - Post Living Differential (PLD) [MERGED]
« Reply #74 on: May 03, 2007, 19:48:33 »
But it sure makes a difference in the End.  No provincial taxes on goods and low income tax plus low oil price makes a HUGE difference in the end...  If you buy a house 200 000$ more in Alberta than in Manitoba (example), amortized over 25 years that makes 8K$ a year more.  How much do you save in taxes/oil every year?  Much more in my opinion, if you manage your finance well