Author Topic: Specialist [Spec] Pay Superthread- All Trades- Merged  (Read 118416 times)

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Offline Recce Infinity

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Specialist [Spec] Pay Superthread- All Trades- Merged
« on: December 17, 2001, 13:20:00 »
I want to know if there are any specialty courses in the Artillery that would qualify me for spec pay. I was told by my unit pay clerk that there are no spec pay trades in the artillery, but I know that there are specialty courses available. (Basic arty Tech being one of them).

So, what does it take to get spec pay?
Mbdr. R.J. Olive

Offline MCG

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Re: Artillery Spec. Pay
« Reply #1 on: December 17, 2001, 14:00:00 »
You neeed to have a technical job, requiring a significant amount of training, with skills easily transferable to the civi world . . . it is a sort of "please don‘t leave the CF" pay.

Offline RCA

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Re: Artillery Spec. Pay
« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2001, 18:18:00 »
Confirming that no Arty trades are consdered specilists (although most of us would argue the point).

Most spec pays are in the air force and comms trades (like the IT trades). No ***  in the grass types are consdered.

And the Arty tech crse is actually a trade course (ie QL4) for s gunners.
Ubique

mod13

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Specialist [Spec] Pay Superthread- All Trades- Merged
« Reply #3 on: August 21, 2003, 10:38:00 »
Can anybody tell me why and how certain trades recieve Spec pay while other trades doing similar or more work do not recieve these extra dollars. When was the last time the military did a review as to why these trades recieve this extra money.

Please do not tell me it is related to retention issues or being on par with civilian pay.  If that was the fact there would be a lot more trades with Spec pay and a few that have it would and should be dropped.

As for extra training, that doesn‘t seem to wash either.  :cdn:

klumanth

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Re: SPEC PAY
« Reply #4 on: August 21, 2003, 15:20:00 »
It has everything to do with training and retention.  In the instance of an LCIS Tech, it‘s a lot cheaper to pay us the extra bucks than to have people leaving for the civy world and have to train new LCIS Techs.  People still do leave for the civy world and they do quite well.  If you‘re a decent tech you‘ll have a list of certifications as long as your arm within a few years.  They put literally ****loads of money into us and it‘s just not cost effective to have us walk away because we‘re not being payed enough.

mod13

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Re: SPEC PAY
« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2003, 07:31:00 »
I would have to agree with you partially. ATIS, LCIS...ect are trades where training and money issues definitly hinder retention, therefore I feel Spec pay is warranted.
 
But what about a Vehicle Tech, a CPL with a Heavey Duty Ticket, paid for by the military, can get out and make double what he is making in the CF. A Lineman can get out and make almost double what they make in the CF. The list could go on, then there are 291ers, are they paid more simply beacause of there security clearance, or a second language? If they are they better start dishing out the cash, I know a lot of people cleared Top Secret or better that know a second language!

All I am asking is when was the last time they reviewed the situation, and what is the criteria for Spec Pay?

klumanth

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Re: SPEC PAY
« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2003, 13:59:00 »
I agree that there are more trades that need spec pay.  From the CF point of view though, they‘re not going to give spec pay until retention becomes a problem.  They‘re talking about spec pay for Sig Ops now because retention has been a problem.  291ers get spec pay because the training is long and costly.  As well, anyone that is often privy to top secret material needs to be paid fairly well so they‘re not tempted to sell secrets.

  I don‘t think there is any actual criteria for a trade to have spec pay.  From what I‘ve seen, they give it out when retention becomes a serious problem.

Offline shado_wolf

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Re: SPEC PAY
« Reply #7 on: August 22, 2003, 18:46:00 »
Hello,

Can someone tell me if the issue of Sig Ops getting spec pay soon truth or fiction?  I am waiting for my offer which hopefully should come in the next couple weeks and to make a long story short I just switched from LCIS to Sig as LCIS isn‘t open now.  I am hoping to remuster after 3 years or so.  But if I move to spec pay at Sigs I may not.....

Thanks,
Dylan

PS
At my interview I asked the career counciler (sp?) but he hadn‘t heard of that at all.....

Edit
And I just asked a friend who is a Sig Op and he said they are always talkin bout it but doesn‘t think they‘ll do before he finishes his 14 years he has left.

klumanth

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Re: SPEC PAY
« Reply #8 on: August 22, 2003, 20:13:00 »
I‘ve heard many people swear it‘s the truth and chances are good but like anything else in the army, don‘t count on it.  An important thing to note is that spec pay does not take effect until you reach the rank of corporal so it won‘t make a difference for your first four years.

radop211tc

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Re: SPEC PAY
« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2003, 01:09:00 »
Personally, I think it is an Urban Myth, I had heard it mentioned when I was in,years ago.
Until, it shows up in your Bank Account, I wouldnt bank on it.

Tc...
VVV

poetboy

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Specialist [Spec] Pay Superthread- All Trades- Merged
« Reply #10 on: August 20, 2004, 18:48:31 »
As of 30th July, 2004, if you are not a Cpl in a "Spec" trade already making spec pay, you will no longer be eligible for spec pay until you are fully QL5 qualified effective 30, August 2004.
This means all of us people halfway through POET in Kingston and those waiting training in Borden have joined the CF anticipating 3 years of hard work and study in order to receive the reward of "Spec Pay" have been deceived! People receiving their Cpl stripes this September will NOT get spec pay yet people promoted in July WILL. Argghhhh. Calculating the time it iwll take to become QL5 qulaified and the cost of inflation/annual increases, the financial cost to technicians will be approximately $20,000 each, not including the reduction in benefits and pension. Given that most people will be barely QL3 if that when their initial contract expires, I am wondering how many people are going to consider resigning the military's gracious offer of cooks pay for specialist technicians work? I am amazed that after all of the studies identifying the need for an incentive package to retain and recruit technicians, escpecially FCS Techs, that now of all times they have introduced a wage rollback to the lowest paid members of the Forces?
Keep in mind this has no affect on Privates pay 1 - 3, only Corporals pay in Specialist 1 trades like FCS, AVS, ATIS etc.
What do you guys think?

Offline weap tech

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Re: Technicians losing Spec Pay until QL5 qualified
« Reply #11 on: August 20, 2004, 18:58:10 »
Could you please tell me what FCS, AVS, and ATIS stands for? I've been trying to figure this out for quite some time. Thanks all!
TREVOR

poetboy

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Re: Technicians losing Spec Pay until QL5 qualified
« Reply #12 on: August 20, 2004, 19:12:07 »
FCS = Fire Control Systems Technician (make munitions land where they're supposed to!)
AVS = Avionics Systems Technician (make planes electronics work properly)
ATIS = Aerospace Telecommunications Informations Systems (satelite comms, radar, Airport comms)

They are all available on the DND site too
 :)
« Last Edit: August 20, 2004, 19:17:48 by poetboy »

Offline Rider Pride

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Re: Technicians losing Spec Pay until QL5 qualified
« Reply #13 on: August 20, 2004, 19:18:32 »
The problem isn't that you won't be entitlted the pay.

The problem is that it takes trades that long to get the course to get the level of knowledge that deserves the pay...

Lengthy waits are a problem in all trades...yours just has a financial penalty to it now.

(ps, if you look in the pay guide, ranks are tied to qualifications pte=QL 3, Cpl=QL 5a, MCpl=5b)
"Return with your shield, or upon it."

poetboy

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Re: Technicians losing Spec Pay until QL5 qualified
« Reply #14 on: August 20, 2004, 19:30:13 »
The problem is, the current standard has been that Cpl has been granted in the fourth year of service and Spec Pay has been paid to all persons serving in a spec trade or training such trade until fully qualified. This has been done as an incentive to retain and recruit new technicians to the under staffed MOC's. Yes the long waits for courses are an issue, but the main problem here is going to be the incentive for a person to choose a trade that is considerably more difficult WELL before QL5 level for the same pay as standard trades. The average tech will now be looking at 5-8 years of standard pay and high level work/training before receiving the "spec pay" that everyone else has already been receiving for the same work. What I am trying to say is that there should be some form of remuneration for the advanced work and schooling we are required to do in the technicians trades compared to non skilled trades prior to the QL5 level.

Offline Rider Pride

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Re: Technicians losing Spec Pay until QL5 qualified
« Reply #15 on: August 20, 2004, 19:46:00 »
What I am trying to say is that there should be some form of remuneration for the advanced work and schooling we are required to do in the technicians trades compared to non skilled trades prior to the QL5 level.

And what clearly defined line would that be, entry, QL 3?

There must be an incentive to stay after gaining knowledge and experience.
"Return with your shield, or upon it."

poetboy

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Re: Technicians losing Spec Pay until QL5 qualified
« Reply #16 on: August 20, 2004, 19:58:01 »
I agree! I think that the appropriate level for spec pay should remain where it has been, at the fourth year or Cpl incentive pay level. This is usually where most people that are new to the CF have finished or are close to finishing their 3's and also provides an incentive for OT's into a flagged trade. Pushing it into the 7th to 8th year is going to remove a lot of the incentive part of the training. Consider that when most people are at the end of their initial contract, having that "spec pay" carrot an inch in front of their nose is a great incentive to get someone to resign. And let's face it, the work being doen by technicians in those first 7 - 8 years is not brainless papershuffling. We are not untrained lackeys incapable of carrying out skilled repairs and maintenance. Although you may not be QL5'd you can still perform most tasks with little supervision and guidance.

Yard Ape

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Re: Technicians losing Spec Pay until QL5 qualified
« Reply #17 on: August 21, 2004, 23:38:15 »
QL 5a being journeyman, if you left before getting that course under your belt you would be short of the qualifications someone might get by going through college.  Civi street likely will not give you full recognition of your training.

So, why pay spec pay to someone who does not yet have the qualifications might inspire a civillian employer to offer him more?

Offline Bert

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Re: Technicians losing Spec Pay until QL5 qualified
« Reply #18 on: August 22, 2004, 00:07:05 »
Depending on the employer and the position, I don't think civilian employers have a problem
drawing parallels between the military training system and the civilian education.  In some
cases its equivalent and in others its not.  Even in the civilian world, Ontario education is not
recognized well in Alberta and vice versa without inter-provincial certification or a
provincial AEETT.

Another point that makes life difficult to attain Cpl spec pay is that some units don't manage
OJT or rotational work well leading to QL5.   If a Cpl gets stuck in a section and the supervisor
doesn't note it to the WO, then the member stays in limbo for awhile and it slows the process.

Yard Ape

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Re: Technicians losing Spec Pay until QL5 qualified
« Reply #19 on: August 22, 2004, 00:13:39 »
No, I don't think civillian employers object to drawing parallels, but without the journyman qualification there is not much to parallel to.

Offline Rider Pride

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Re: Technicians losing Spec Pay until QL5 qualified
« Reply #20 on: August 22, 2004, 09:01:53 »
Poetboy,
I understand your gripe on this subject and if I were in your shoes I would be pissed as well.

Unfortunately for you, I understand the reasoning for the policy as detrimental financially as it is for you...

Understand does not = agree though

As of yet Med tech do not recieve spec pay but when they do, I would agree with this policy. As a Med Tech you may get promoted Cpl, and recieved the training for the civilian equivelent as part of the QL 3. But its not until they are comlete thier QL 5 that Med Techs can become fully funtional in all roles a Cpl/Mcpl can fill.

I don't quite know how POET trades relate in this fashion, but as I said, I understand the policy.
"Return with your shield, or upon it."

poetboy

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Re: Technicians losing Spec Pay until QL5 qualified
« Reply #21 on: August 22, 2004, 10:54:52 »
Basically, the spec pay was introduced as an incentive to retain and recruit members. It was a way to get people to resign their contracts ESPECIALLY at the end of the crucial three year intital engagement. This is when most techs are finished (ing) their QL3 stage and reaching their CPL status. At this point, civilian recruiters recognized the high skill level of the CF members and the low pay levels of the standard scale. Many techs were offered jobs in the civilian sector that were too good to pass up; the CF had no way to compensate it members to get them to stay. As a result, the "spec pay" was brought about to enhance the pay of trades that were considered highly desirable positions to the public sector and that incentives would be paid to keep and recruit people in these positions. Spec pay was paid to everyone in the trades allocated as soon as you reached Cpl status as an incentive to stay in the program, regardless of what QL level you had reached. This was of course due to the horrendous backlog of people in the training system. We have all heard of the horror stories of people in Borden for two years waiting for POET and then waiting another year for their 3's. People were VR'ing (quitting) while waiting for courses. Morale was dead low and people were OT'ing to other trades just to get out of Borden and just to DO SOMETHING. In my case I was only waiting a year for POET, which I consider average amongst the people here. The point being: when my three year contract comes up, I will be QL3 qualified, a Cpl, an OACETT student member, and in the eyes of most public sector employers, extremely well qualified to do electronics repairs. Now the question is, do I resign a contract with the military that will offer me the same wages as the cooks for the next 3 years, or do I explore my options as a civilian? The whole point of the spec pay was to remove that doubt of resigning from our minds.
On another note, some trades that are similar to FCS but do not include a QL5 component WILL receive spec pay upon reaching their QL3's as it is their standards level. Again, this is another incentive for people in a flagged trade to choose to either OT to a non QL5 course or for people choosing a career to avoid FCS altogether.

Offline Bert

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Re: Technicians losing Spec Pay until QL5 qualified
« Reply #22 on: August 22, 2004, 13:37:13 »
Poetboy >
"Now the question is, do I resign a contract with the military that will offer me the same
wages as the cooks for the next 3 years, or do I explore my options as a civilian? The whole
point of the spec pay was to remove that doubt of resigning from our minds."

Its safe to say that everyone is in charge of their future and considering all options is a
responsible method.   The trick is to figure out the best path.

I've had alot of experience in the civilian world and enough to say that getting and keeping
a good paying technical job in the private sector is difficult.   The last few years have been
turbulent especially in hi-tech and hi-tech manufacturing.   Most techical sectors are still
recovering, others are recessed, and the looming question of how strong the economy is
going to be in the next few years.

Many electronics technicians and technologists seriously considered and followed-up on a
military career for the job security, the training, and the possibility of doing more than a
8-4 kind of job.   The draw-backs may be the member doesn't always perform technical
work, the job is more system level than component level, and there is competition
for courses.

The pay/benefits in the private sector are not always that great especially during initial
employment.   It takes several years and hard work and acquired experience to get
anything close to $50,000 generally speaking.   In the military, Private pay is not
spectacular yet is comparable to civilian junior technicians and even better in many cases.
The difference is in the benefits, deployment pay, and whether you like the varied
characteristic of military life.

I'd say if you got a definite handle on a civy job with good pay, security, and the chance to
progress in position and increasing pay, then its worth considering.   If you don't, then
you may find that the grass is not necessarily greener in the civy world.

In my opinion, the military technical training system is good for job specific training at the
system level and product training.   Yet, the electronic fundamental theory and experience
is quickly brushed over.   Civy technicians who went thru college have better fundamentals
in a two or three year program than a CF member with just Poet and QL3s.   Its a balance
of things too.

My advice would be to stay in the CF, take the courses you think lie in a good career path,
and bank the money.   At the same time, watch the markets, the jobs (private and public),
project where you want to be and when the timing is right, make you're move.   If you hop
out of the miltiary too quickly, you might regret it.





« Last Edit: August 22, 2004, 13:46:45 by Bert »

poetboy

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Re: Technicians losing Spec Pay until QL5 qualified
« Reply #23 on: August 22, 2004, 18:04:09 »
To Bert:

Thank you for your considerable thoughts on the situation. I appreciate your insight and opinion. I will definitely weigh my options carefully when the time comes to resign my contract. In the meantime, I am still discouraged by the change of heart in the CF to take away something that had been in place for so long, even if it was merely a goodwill gesture to beleaguered technicians awaiting completion of training.

Offline Rider Pride

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Re: Technicians losing Spec Pay until QL5 qualified
« Reply #24 on: August 22, 2004, 19:11:55 »
Basically, the spec pay was introduced as an incentive to retain and recruit members. It was a way to get people to resign their contracts ESPECIALLY at the end of the crucial three year intital engagement. This is when most techs are finished (ing) their QL3 stage and reaching their CPL status. At this point, civilian recruiters recognized the high skill level of the CF members and the low pay levels of the standard scale. Many techs were offered jobs in the civilian sector that were too good to pass up; the CF had no way to compensate it members to get them to stay. As a result, the "spec pay" was brought about to enhance the pay of trades that were considered highly desirable positions to the public sector and that incentives would be paid to keep and recruit people in these positions. Spec pay was paid to everyone in the trades allocated as soon as you reached Cpl status as an incentive to stay in the program, regardless of what QL level you had reached. This was of course due to the horrendous backlog of people in the training system. We have all heard of the horror stories of people in Borden for two years waiting for POET and then waiting another year for their 3's.

Uhm, thaks but wrong....Spec pay has been in the CF for quite a long time (over 20 yrs). While you are indeed correct that it was in response to higher paying civilian jobs poaching CF members, it did not have anything to do amount of time waiting for courses.  It was also given because of higher levels of learning (ie long and hard courses, hence why infantry doesn't get it). In fact up until the last 5-10 yrs, many trades required QL 5 to be promoted to Cpl, and most trades were loaded 2 yrs after completion of QL 3. In fact failure of QL 5 course can prevent you from being promoted.

And its only been in the last 3-5 yrs that the poaching of training personnel to beef up operations has caused this shortages of staff and therefor the back log of PATs.

I feel your understanding of the background issues maybe flawed due to your personal intrest in this decision.

Questions: Did you join under the NCM-SEP? Did you get promoted to Cpl on completion of your MOC training?

Further, are you aware that there are changes in the career progression for trades...First BE may be 5-7 yrs before initial contract is reviewed....

Too bad you wasted bandwith explaining to me what Specialist Pay is.
"Return with your shield, or upon it."